Strategies in big games
SiG_
Singapore Join Date: 2013-12-17 Member: 190211Members
Singapore Join Date: 2013-12-17 Member: 190211Members
I just played a couple of 10v10s, and this bears mentioning. I think as a community, we might have sent the whole "no solo-ing" message out way too strongly here. That would apply well to the 6v6 format, but in large games, there are diminishing returns to clustering all your forces in one area.
It's often more productive to send a lone marine (or skulk) or two to poke around as a diversion while sieging a base conservatively, or to kill off as many enemy RTs as possible while the enemy team is busy mustering all their forces to defend - even if the siege fails, he would have mitigated the loss by screwing up the enemy resource flow. Whether the loss of one unit's worth of firepower/hitpoints in a siege effort is worth the strategic advantage is up to the commander's judgement, but I seldom see such things purposefully happening, or if they do, there's a high chance that the diversionary marine/skulk gets yelled at. Which was what happened in one of my earlier games, even though the fella ravaging the enemy RTs was contributing way more to the team's eventual victory than the tosser on the mic sitting perpetually in the spawn queue.
On a related note, I find larger games more spectacular to watch and play in when they're well done, which isn't too often these days. In strategic terms, a 6v6 game is like watching a Warcraft 3 1v1 match to me, while a 12v12 is an epic Starcraft battle. I know big pub games tend to get shunned by many comp players, but... if you've seen any creative or spectacular big game strats, feel free to share some and help out someone learning how to comm
It's often more productive to send a lone marine (or skulk) or two to poke around as a diversion while sieging a base conservatively, or to kill off as many enemy RTs as possible while the enemy team is busy mustering all their forces to defend - even if the siege fails, he would have mitigated the loss by screwing up the enemy resource flow. Whether the loss of one unit's worth of firepower/hitpoints in a siege effort is worth the strategic advantage is up to the commander's judgement, but I seldom see such things purposefully happening, or if they do, there's a high chance that the diversionary marine/skulk gets yelled at. Which was what happened in one of my earlier games, even though the fella ravaging the enemy RTs was contributing way more to the team's eventual victory than the tosser on the mic sitting perpetually in the spawn queue.
On a related note, I find larger games more spectacular to watch and play in when they're well done, which isn't too often these days. In strategic terms, a 6v6 game is like watching a Warcraft 3 1v1 match to me, while a 12v12 is an epic Starcraft battle. I know big pub games tend to get shunned by many comp players, but... if you've seen any creative or spectacular big game strats, feel free to share some and help out someone learning how to comm
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A valid marine opener would be: 2nd ip, 2 rts, arms lab and first upgrade as fast as possible with no armory.
The first goal should be: weapon 2, armor 1 and shotguns around 7 min mark (fades pop up). Well this is serversize independent but would have an larger impact on an 24 slot server.
Phase gates @ this point are a nice extra but not an must have.
But if you try that beware of the "pros" starting to eject you. "com, we need an armory", "where are the phase gates", blabla
Of course, without those early w2 shotguns your team will melt once someone who knows what they're doing pops fade. Even then, you need two or three man teams with those shotguns to reliably bring a fade down, so most of your team needs to actually buy one (and be able to hit a teleporting blur). But 50% of the pubs are saving up for the exo's they're never going to be able to buy anyway.
Public commanding is like sheep herding. You have little to no idea how good most of them are- they may even have their sound turned off, have an infant nearby, or any number of things. You have to plan for the lowest common denominator. Safer strats that can accommodate for crappy play and higher casualty rates. I think that's why fast phase is the only accepted public strat unless you end up on a stacked or solid team and you know the team is good anyway.
Anyway, SiG_, although I prefer 8v8 max and typically play with regular teammates I'll give you a rundown of how I try to command on random servers with unknown (to me) skill levels. In general, for a commander to make or break winning a game the teams really need to be fairly well matched skill wise. If your marines are getting slaughtered in every encounter, it won't matter if you hit every med drop needed and every marine follows every order you give, 99% of those games will be lost. And then sometimes it won't matter what strategy or build order you do, your team will win regardless.
The following is my opinion on how to best command in general, because although I've commanded probably 500+ hours, I'm a fairly straightforward and dull commander when it comes to creativity and spectacular strategies.
Commanding revolves around communication, preferably with a mic. I don't care how fast you are at typing, you will be more effective with voice. Also ask the team if anyone else has a mic. Get the communication flowing. You want people on the field updating you and other players of what's happening. You want people saying a RT is getting attacked, or a hurt lerk is coming to a room, or a sneak phase gate is being built etc. If there are rookies (green names), give them a few extra seconds of your time coaching them basics such as using the C key for map, the minimap is at the top left and red dots on it mean aliens, press b to evolve upgrades etc. You want to do this to help the rookies as well as to gain the trust of your team. Think of being a comm as being a boss at work. Would you be more willing to listen to and follow a boss who you know cares about you and your job or one that is there just because they need a paycheck?
If you have never commanded before, watch a few youtube videos or streams before you try it in game. Seriously. If you're inexperienced or just plain slow at commanding, tell your team before the game starts. Tell your team what you are planning to do during pre-game and if there are any major objections from a player about your plan or your commanding skills, offer to just log out and let that person have the job. No need to have to put up with animosity from your teammates when they can do it themselves; and you can save your energy and enthusiasm for a team that is willing to help you try new strats or gain experience. Out of all the times I've offered to log out, the person complaining actually took the chair maybe twice.
Many times people are willing to try different things if you explain them beforehand and don't just do it silently. When you are not communicating your team will assume you are an idiot or a troll and will treat you as such. If you want to go arms lab first and will delay an armory, obs and phase gates, tell them. Of course, you should also keep in mind that other people on your team may know a lot more about strategy or the opposition etc so don't dismiss every complaint out of hand. Since we are talking large number servers I wouldn't bother trying to get a very specific strategy from the start such as player names 1-3 go here player names 4&5 build base, 6-9 go here, player 10-12 go here etc. Generic orders such as 3 people stay and build base, other even split both sides tend to work better. Then if only 1 person leaves base to the left and 8 are going right, tell them you don't need so many people going right and call names if needed. It is very true that large servers can get chaotic and unorganized but they can also be easier than herding cats. You'll have to find your own way to deal with the team having a mind of its own, and sometimes just work your plan to what the team does... Phase gates or gorge tunnels to key locations very quickly is so common in large games because players often use them automatically when they spawn, so it's a way for a comm to get people where they are wanted.
*I'm sure a lot of what's said towards pubs is meant in jest but damn it gets old sometimes reading (not just in these forums) about how much better some people are than others at video games. Find other ways in life to measure your self worth. Sorry for the rant and this wasn't meant toward anyone in particular.
What are you talking about? Not a single post in this thread had anything to do with comp play or elitism. They've all been discussing viable pub strata and why some don't work.
The valid marine opener is to rush to two separate base locations ASAP and set up phase at about 2:30, then secure those rooms and whatever RTs are in between and wait for res/upgrades while poking at the alien RTs not in tech points. Assaulting a dug-in alien base on a large pub is nigh impossible, and in fact slightly harder than assaulting a dug in marine base. By 5 minutes the game is decided based on how many tech locations the marines have managed to take and hold (3=marine win,
Anyway, I'm usually paying attention to where the largest group of teammates is and then I go to the opposite end of the map. I'm either defending key locations from small assaults while the main force is focused elsewhere or else I am the small assault they need to defend from, generally preventing or causing chaos as much as possible.
I've had less than 1 hour of comm experience and roughly 100 hours of play but I've never seen early shotguns work. Whenever a comm did try it, we would gain the upper hand for a while, but once people started losing those shotguns, we were set back by so much that we couldn't deal with the alien expansions and the eventual fades that weren't all that far behind.
In pub commanding, you generally get an idea of people's skill levels after a round. But even with 2 or 3 good players on a team, it's frustrating to play when half the team, AND the comm doesn't know how to respond to something like... say.. skylights harassment on veil. Or early alien aggression and hive on hydroanalysis or crossroads. Basically the marines (and sometimes the aliens) lose the strategic game long before they lose the firefights.
Thanks, but it seems that most NS2 videos are geared towards things like skulk/fade/marine fps play. I've watched quite a few of It'sSuperEffective's videos, but I haven't seen any specifically for commanding...? And I guess if marines get slaughtered in every encounter, the teams are so stacked that the best strat would be "IPs and armouries for all and deathmatch it out". Interestingly I've seen one comm specifically instruct a newbie with a score like 0/1/25 to stay in base and not go out because he would block the spawn queue for more useful players. Harsh....
So far, I tend to spam obs scans for info, a relic from my SC days, and count aliens as they pop up. That was useful for one round where all the aliens were sieging our only base on mineshaft, leaving their hive at cave completely undefended. It took a lot of yelling, but we finally got people to weld the 2 dual exos defending the base while I gave the top 2 kdr marines jetpacks and they actually managed to take out the hive O_O It helped that one already had a flamethrower. They had the sense to take out the gorge tunnel there first, and the aliens assaulting our base weren't able to respond decisively, dawdling around and getting shot at by the exos. When they finally decided to turn back, it was too late and worse, they got ripped by the jetpackers while running away. Well, that probably wasn't that creative on hindsight, but it's one of those things that's amazing when it works
Ok the actual answer now.
* Solo on large servers basicly is not solo but a small group. Just scale up manpower in your normal tacts.
* If you are on a large server, folk will die. Its that simple. The flurry of teeth and bullets is harder to dodge if there are more folk throwing it around. This means investing in survivability scales poorly. Armor1 will not do much if 5 skulk munch on your leg. So go for weapon upgrades!
* Explosives are op and scale upwards with more players. Someone will always get hit by a explosion.
* Dont ignore shotties.
While I agree this seems like the more sensible option and it's more prominent in the pro scene it is not however as effective in large scale pub play to skip early phase for the following reasons:
- Fades aren't as powerful in pub games unless you have a random pro in the lobby so early upgrades aren't as important for an average team, but even if you do have a good fade on aliens, +2 armor is more likely to be useful vs fades since most marines can't hit stuff anyway and the extra swipe keeps them alive longer
- Marines are not aggressive or fast enough without phase gates, people tend to wait around for aliens to attack and are slow to respond to location threats, at least if you get phase gates out they are at a critical location quickly and can push or defend appropriately
- Pub marines expect early phase gates and will harass you constantly for them, annoying and they tend to wait at tech points for them
- Early phase can be effective IF you have a lot of marines buying mines, it makes it difficult for aliens to take a location with so many mines on the map on larger servers, this allows you to transition efficiently and effectively into upgrades > proto
The best strat I've found for marine pub play is going for either: A) Early phase gates with mine spam into upgrades or
One tip for commanders to get people to buy stuff specifically mines and shotguns is to ask the individual rather than asking people to buy shotguns, "Hey X can you buy mines and place them around the base please?" usually works even in pubs, not saying it works for everyone especially rookies but vast majority of at least experienced pubbers will listen.
12 skulks can kill a CC in literally 3 seconds if they all start biting at the same time (it takes about 36 seconds for one skulk, divide by 12). There is absolutely NOTHING the marine team can do in response if the base is undefended when you get there. Even if they started a beacon the moment you appear on the radar with an ideal OBS spot they still wouldn't warp in in time to save the base (maybe kill a few skulks, but the CC is still gonna die).
That's not to say that it's an unstoppable strat. If the marines have any defense already in base when you show up, sentries, mines or marines already in position to defend, there is a good chance they can stop you. With the entire alien team out of position or dead (even the commander with 12 skulks) surviving the rush may as well mean winning the game right there.
It doesn't have to be your best shooter. If they are good at working with and protecting the group they may as well stay with the rest of the team. What you need is someone who CAN shoot and understands the value of suicide tactics, which come to think of it probably isn't the top k/d anyway.
Why would you ever tell an individual to buy a shotgun? The player (should) know if and when he would be effective with a shotgun and buy it then. Sometimes the LMG just works better. On the other hand telling everybody to go shotguns for a shotgun rush makes sense, whether or not it works is another story.
Please enlighten me about the shotgun rush
Ninja phase, beacon, everybody buy shotguns, phase to hive and murder it. At least that's the way it's usually attempted anyway, I've also seen it without the phase (the beacon is pretty much mandatory unless you are trying it at game start). I wasn't really suggesting it as a strategy, it's just that it's the only reason I can imagine telling anyone to buy a shotgun specifically, and it requires you to tell everyone to do it.
A shotgun on the field when a fade is mopping up a team is better than waiting for that marine to save for an exosuit that might never come and I used shotgun as an example, I emphasize more for mines. That shotgun can still be picked up by another and maybe better marine player to use vs. that fade.
You tend to win when your team is better. So, figure out which one it is and join them :-D .
That, and eject bad commanders promptly. As I've said before, a com can't win a game, but he can definitely lose one, especially on marines.
Well that's generally the idea in any game. Then only difference in pubs is that you get to choose your team at the last minute.
That said, my usual strat on pubs (I comm alot) is:
Marines:
2nd ip (mandatory), armory (cos people whinge when you don't put this down). 2-3 res nodes +meds drops to establish position. Get an obs (yeah, the pg whinge). arms lab (a1, w1) while dropping meds and getting more res. I want SG by 7-8 min for the fades and lerks that are popping up.
The strat is my vanilla strat. Its pretty boring, but can prolong the game if we are losing slowly, and everyone has fun.
Aliens:
Shift hive first -no one wants shade :-(. If I have a few greens on the team, I go Crag for more survivability (but usually the vets hate that).
cyst out to 2 res nodes, and drop rt when possible - if there is a gorge willing to go to a tech point for defense, I will extend the cyst chain there. But this is very map dependent. Just tell the team where marines are and encourage them to res bite. Get your spurs asap so people don't whinge. Rest is very fluid. If team is doing well, I don't need to crag/whip areas so much, so res go into biomass / new hive / upgrades.
I try to get gorge upgrade going either as soon as i drop 2nd hive or just before (so it can finish when I have biomass 3) - with 1 biomass upgrade on the start hive. I never drop eggs in a pub unless its a gorge egg. If its all going to shit (on 2 rt cos your team isn't aggressive). I dump everything into biomass and gorge upgrade and try for a gorge bile rush on marine start (with a sneaky tunnel). Upgrades cost so much, I tend not to use whips everythere (just a few spots on tight chokes with a crag (this is a 30 t.res investment - 2 whips + crag).
I think the math changes with larger player counts. with med support, you're paying tres to win engagements, you need to pay a greater cost to win the same percentage of engagements as you would at smaller counts. phase first may be the more cost effective at higher numbers. the mobility advantage is mitigated by keeping your marines alive... but that might res starve you at higher player counts.