@xen32
Yup those are all legit points that I should have realised... Thanks for pointing them out. I misread HeatSurge's solution on first pass.. He's suggesting the medpacks simply don't render until they're in LOS. That is a much neater solution.
Anyway based on ironhorses response, nothing's going to change so not much point wasting time in this thread.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
edited February 2014
Is it really that much effort to just file "nav_debug" under "cheats only" commands?
Okay okay so the medpack thing aside, maybe the first engagement really doesn't make such a huge difference. But remember, the nav_debug can also be used to scout areas later in the game. Sure, you can't tell what exactly you're looking at, but usually you can get a pretty good idea of what's going on... especially if you just happen to notice there's a few holes in the nav mesh around... say... east/west junction where there really shouldn't be any. Thus, marine's sneaky arcing of nano grid is completely blown. The fact that, in this hypothetical scenario, aliens hadn't been checking these areas says to me that indeed marines should be able to get away with this attack, but will be unable to because of some new information that was given to aliens in a way that is not typically available, and is certainly unintended by the developers.
But I agree with whoever said that commander drops just shouldn't be visible unless you have LOS of them... that's a very intuitive solution. Maybe drops will be invisible, but still able to be spammed if necessary, but building blueprints remain visible wherever? Sounds good to me.
EDIT: Also, dayuummmmm!!! Never had 29 notifications before!
Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
on the other hand, that's an extremely good trade.
It's a bug. The feature that helps you detect what is at a location is called scan.
meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.
nav_debug needs to be restricted to cheats only. Gorges having difficulty placing tunnels should not need to be resolved by using a debug mode.
Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.
So a commander cannot pre-place any buildings for marines? They must be in LoS in order for the building to be dropped? What if there is an alien building there under shade that has not yet been scanned? What if he wants to build in base but cannot as the team is out of base at that point and there are no spawners (even if you use LoS of marine buildings, what about building in base that's not in line of sight of a building)?
Sorry but that is both ridiculous and unworkable. There's no getting away from the fact that if an alien structure is there, you can't place a marine structure there as well. You can't require line of sight from anything, because that will still not work in the event of cloaked structures. Just get used to the fact that marines can choose to spend some of their initial res on intel. Given that the marines move much slower than aliens, this 'advantage' seems somewhat fair anyway. Aliens have more mobility to scout so they're barely disadvantaged at all by not having a comparable method as the medpack drop.
Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
on the other hand, that's an extremely good trade.
It's a bug. The feature that helps you detect what is at a location is called scan.
meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.
nav_debug needs to be restricted to cheats only. Gorges having difficulty placing tunnels should not need to be resolved by using a debug mode.
Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.
So a commander cannot pre-place any buildings for marines? They must be in LoS in order for the building to be dropped? What if there is an alien building there under shade that has not yet been scanned? What if he wants to build in base but cannot as the team is out of base at that point and there are no spawners (even if you use LoS of marine buildings, what about building in base that's not in line of sight of a building)?
Sorry but that is both ridiculous and unworkable. There's no getting away from the fact that if an alien structure is there, you can't place a marine structure there as well. You can't require line of sight from anything, because that will still not work in the event of cloaked structures. Just get used to the fact that marines can choose to spend some of their initial res on intel. Given that the marines move much slower than aliens, this 'advantage' seems somewhat fair anyway. Aliens have more mobility to scout so they're barely disadvantaged at all by not having a comparable method as the medpack drop.
Yea I'm not sure why ghost structures suddenly popped into the discussion. Where'd that come from???
I mean... I don't mind that people can check by placing a structure, as the costs them money as well (recycling isn't a full refund... and I kinda wish aliens "poofing" structures did the same, instead of a full refund as it is now).
@Ironhorse, setting the medpack/ammo concern aside, you're thinking it advisable at this point to level the playing field by inviting the masses to include nav_debug in normal, daily play (should they so choose)? My first reaction upon reading that is to assume I've somehow misunderstood you (as if, perhaps, you were commenting only on the med/ammo "exploit"), or that I perhaps misunderstand nav_debug's place.
I don't think it should be invited to normal play such as a tool tip, per se, due to its natural intended debug use it's not very user friendly... but for "pro tips"... yea i think it should be.
Its better than just a select few knowing about it - secret and undocumented knowledge should never provide an advantage, ideally - and honestly the impact is so minimal in those first few seconds of a round for reasons already covered.*
Besides nav_debug being useful in determining WHY your stupid arc or drifter just got stuck or why your gorge tunnel won't drop precisely right there...
It's also not the only Tres/Pres free means of determining enemy positions.. sooo I have a hard time advocating for any change considering the large array of options to determine this.
*Beyond those first few "discovery" seconds of a round, there is the obvious and worth noting occurrence that any decent semi aware player or team are already privy to the enemy's position on the map, or at a very minimum aware of the high probability of them being there. The time it takes to asses this by using nav_debug is almost more than using some of the other freely available means.
Would i like all of these issues to be fixed once and for all? Sure.
Do i think it's going to happen, let alone stay fixed? Nope.
So you might as well give everyone access to the toys.
I've always found that, exploit or no, you tend to know where the opposing team is within the first 20 seconds or so anyway. As soon as you engage for the first time you usually have an idea
Ok I think we should increase the cost of med packs to 5 res... that should keep marine commanders from using this clear exploit to gain the advantage. :P
So i just type in nav_debug and i know exactly where all marine structures are?
Pretty much. Only if you are commanding and look directly at the structure location though, it doesn't show on the map. You also need to guess what the structure is because all you are going to see is a vaguely circular red shape.
You might also be able to see cloaked structures from the ground but I haven't tried that yet.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Well, on a lot of maps, the Marines have a fixed spawn, so that is easy enough, otherwise with alien speed on a map like summit it is first contact that gives it away.
So kinda like the old alien infesation where you could see everything. That was OP and removed. Not sure why something like this is available to everyone without cheats on.
The question i'd like to ask is why is it being defended as needing to be outside cheats 1? That's the real question, and none of this red herring "oh it isn't an exploit(as far as we know)". It will always be beyond my understanding why something like alien vision was turned into a horrible mess on the underlying basis of 'preserving aesthetic' (how ironic that turned out to be), but nav_debug is kept in.
I sometimes don't understand the thinking behind UWE logic where they don't seem to recognise the idea of decisions that have all negatives and zero positives.
Pros:
Nothing. Save the developer 1 second of his life putting this behind an if cheats condition. Save the map maker one second of his life typing cheats 1.
Cons:
Bad feedback from uninformed players will follow you around for the rest of the lifespan of this game as long as nav_debug is allowed at any time. Save yourself the trouble.
Also, it's a debugging tool that as of yet no-one has figured out how to use to exploit things. Whether or not someone will in the future can only be viewed as a potential. This is the same thing with net_lag, which was out of cheats for the longest time because no-one ever really thought it could be abusive. And then people like me started using net_lag 800+ and killing people around corners before they could react just to prove a point.
The question i'd like to ask is why is it being defended as needing to be outside cheats 1?
As clearly stated already: Because its not the only means or method, there's a plethora of these exploits/tricks and despite attempts to fix them they continue to return for over the course of years. Most are reported already in our system.
So okay, sure.. we make nav mesh cheats only (which I am not opposed to obviously)... now what about the 5 other means, hmm?
The question i'd like to ask is why is it being defended as needing to be outside cheats 1?
As clearly stated already: Because its not the only means or method, there's a plethora of these exploits/tricks and despite attempts to fix them they continue to return for over the course of years. Most are reported already in our system.
So okay, sure.. we make nav mesh cheats only (which I am not opposed to obviously)... now what about the 5 other means, hmm?
with all respect, what kind of retarded question is that? Not trying to say you're retarded personally, but that is one hell of a stupid question.
Put the dev commands behind dev 1 or cheats 1. How hard is that not to understand? It's not that I really give a crap about these overall insignificant issues as much as i do about the aura of incompetence this reeks in regards to 101 making sure a game is polished.
*Seriously, these are simple jobs even I can do with almost no lua programming knowledge in like 5 minutes tops. That you are even coming down on the other side of these issues is severely off putting.
It seems to me that the nav_debug issue being an exploit is much more related to times it's used during the game rather than as a base finder. I would also like to see it put on dev or cheats or at least make it only show in commander view with line of sight of existing structures that use it to navigate the map.
FYI the alien comm can find marine start just as easily...
And there really is no reason to change nav_debug to a cheats only command, especially when there a multiple other non cheat/dev level commands that can have a much greater impact. Sure its a 'dev' command but IMO its more similar to debugspeed or net_stats than other dev commands. (as a side note, debugspeed should be non-cheats).
FYI the alien comm can find marine start just as easily...
And there really is no reason to change nav_debug to a cheats only command, especially when there a multiple other non cheat/dev level commands that can have a much greater impact. Sure its a 'dev' command but IMO its more similar to debugspeed or net_stats than other dev commands. (as a side note, debugspeed should be non-cheats).
I agree that debugspeed should be non-cheat. But i would rather UWE show some consistency and logic.
Being able to type nav_debug straight out of the box for a new player is just a bit weird. I mean just from the viewpoint of not making a half assed product you're trying to sell for money. I would not lump it together with net_Stats and debugspeed. Like i said, i couldn't give a crap either way about the actual nav_debug issue as much as the lack of interest there seems to be in making sure there's a certain level of polish and consistency throughout the game.
As for the other non cheat/dev commands. Glad to hear that there are still many out there that have even greater impact. Well done UWE well done. And a big thankyou to ironhorse for opening up that whole other can of worms on the public forums.
99% of the playerbase probably never opens the console... that's really not a reason to disable an in-game command that players can type in themselves... its not like an accidental keybind they might hit. I generally prefer games that leave in potential debugging/troubleshooting commands (like source) as it can be helpful when problems are encountered (and lets be honest, every single game has bugs).
When I say greater impact, I mean that they would be more disruptive for a new player entering them (since that's what you seemed to be noting as the main issue?).. I understand greater consistency regarding console command structure, but honestly its such an insignificant issue that the entire tone of everything you said baffles me... I mean I'm usually quick to be a **** and that attitude surprises even me...
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I don't follow the logic that since there are other commands that provide the same or even more information that also aren't behind a cheats flag, it's OK to leave this one, and then the others too.
Surely all of them should be put behind a cheat flag then?!
Comments
Yup those are all legit points that I should have realised... Thanks for pointing them out. I misread HeatSurge's solution on first pass.. He's suggesting the medpacks simply don't render until they're in LOS. That is a much neater solution.
Anyway based on ironhorses response, nothing's going to change so not much point wasting time in this thread.
Okay okay so the medpack thing aside, maybe the first engagement really doesn't make such a huge difference. But remember, the nav_debug can also be used to scout areas later in the game. Sure, you can't tell what exactly you're looking at, but usually you can get a pretty good idea of what's going on... especially if you just happen to notice there's a few holes in the nav mesh around... say... east/west junction where there really shouldn't be any. Thus, marine's sneaky arcing of nano grid is completely blown. The fact that, in this hypothetical scenario, aliens hadn't been checking these areas says to me that indeed marines should be able to get away with this attack, but will be unable to because of some new information that was given to aliens in a way that is not typically available, and is certainly unintended by the developers.
But I agree with whoever said that commander drops just shouldn't be visible unless you have LOS of them... that's a very intuitive solution. Maybe drops will be invisible, but still able to be spammed if necessary, but building blueprints remain visible wherever? Sounds good to me.
EDIT: Also, dayuummmmm!!! Never had 29 notifications before!
So a commander cannot pre-place any buildings for marines? They must be in LoS in order for the building to be dropped? What if there is an alien building there under shade that has not yet been scanned? What if he wants to build in base but cannot as the team is out of base at that point and there are no spawners (even if you use LoS of marine buildings, what about building in base that's not in line of sight of a building)?
Sorry but that is both ridiculous and unworkable. There's no getting away from the fact that if an alien structure is there, you can't place a marine structure there as well. You can't require line of sight from anything, because that will still not work in the event of cloaked structures. Just get used to the fact that marines can choose to spend some of their initial res on intel. Given that the marines move much slower than aliens, this 'advantage' seems somewhat fair anyway. Aliens have more mobility to scout so they're barely disadvantaged at all by not having a comparable method as the medpack drop.
Yea I'm not sure why ghost structures suddenly popped into the discussion. Where'd that come from???
I mean... I don't mind that people can check by placing a structure, as the costs them money as well (recycling isn't a full refund... and I kinda wish aliens "poofing" structures did the same, instead of a full refund as it is now).
Yes sacrifice a 8 res drifter to scout all tech points.
Wait ....spending res to scout too op. Nerf drifters ability to see buildings pls.
Its better than just a select few knowing about it - secret and undocumented knowledge should never provide an advantage, ideally - and honestly the impact is so minimal in those first few seconds of a round for reasons already covered.*
Besides nav_debug being useful in determining WHY your stupid arc or drifter just got stuck or why your gorge tunnel won't drop precisely right there...
It's also not the only Tres/Pres free means of determining enemy positions.. sooo I have a hard time advocating for any change considering the large array of options to determine this.
*Beyond those first few "discovery" seconds of a round, there is the obvious and worth noting occurrence that any decent semi aware player or team are already privy to the enemy's position on the map, or at a very minimum aware of the high probability of them being there. The time it takes to asses this by using nav_debug is almost more than using some of the other freely available means.
Would i like all of these issues to be fixed once and for all? Sure.
Do i think it's going to happen, let alone stay fixed? Nope.
So you might as well give everyone access to the toys.
And that goes for the rest of the round too.
Can't recall how often i say to my commander "I bet they dropped a hive already at X.."
Don't see the big deal.
Tell a pub server where the aliens start, they won't even know what to do with that information.
@Side1Bu2Rnz9 Gg marines. no more med support. gg
Pretty much. Only if you are commanding and look directly at the structure location though, it doesn't show on the map. You also need to guess what the structure is because all you are going to see is a vaguely circular red shape.
You might also be able to see cloaked structures from the ground but I haven't tried that yet.
Does it work both ways? Can the Khamm spot the marine spawn for 1 res? (or less? Aliens seem less resilient to initial res costs)
If not, agreed, good trade.
You don't get to see where enemy players are walking on your map. That's a huge difference.
Maybe its not that bad but i know i wont be using it and never have.
I sometimes don't understand the thinking behind UWE logic where they don't seem to recognise the idea of decisions that have all negatives and zero positives.
Pros:
Nothing. Save the developer 1 second of his life putting this behind an if cheats condition. Save the map maker one second of his life typing cheats 1.
Cons:
Bad feedback from uninformed players will follow you around for the rest of the lifespan of this game as long as nav_debug is allowed at any time. Save yourself the trouble.
Also, it's a debugging tool that as of yet no-one has figured out how to use to exploit things. Whether or not someone will in the future can only be viewed as a potential. This is the same thing with net_lag, which was out of cheats for the longest time because no-one ever really thought it could be abusive. And then people like me started using net_lag 800+ and killing people around corners before they could react just to prove a point.
At least from IPs, yes. Waypoints on robo factories are (mildly) useful.
So okay, sure.. we make nav mesh cheats only (which I am not opposed to obviously)... now what about the 5 other means, hmm?
Put the dev commands behind dev 1 or cheats 1. How hard is that not to understand? It's not that I really give a crap about these overall insignificant issues as much as i do about the aura of incompetence this reeks in regards to 101 making sure a game is polished.
*Seriously, these are simple jobs even I can do with almost no lua programming knowledge in like 5 minutes tops. That you are even coming down on the other side of these issues is severely off putting.
And there really is no reason to change nav_debug to a cheats only command, especially when there a multiple other non cheat/dev level commands that can have a much greater impact. Sure its a 'dev' command but IMO its more similar to debugspeed or net_stats than other dev commands. (as a side note, debugspeed should be non-cheats).
Being able to type nav_debug straight out of the box for a new player is just a bit weird. I mean just from the viewpoint of not making a half assed product you're trying to sell for money. I would not lump it together with net_Stats and debugspeed. Like i said, i couldn't give a crap either way about the actual nav_debug issue as much as the lack of interest there seems to be in making sure there's a certain level of polish and consistency throughout the game.
As for the other non cheat/dev commands. Glad to hear that there are still many out there that have even greater impact. Well done UWE well done. And a big thankyou to ironhorse for opening up that whole other can of worms on the public forums.
When I say greater impact, I mean that they would be more disruptive for a new player entering them (since that's what you seemed to be noting as the main issue?).. I understand greater consistency regarding console command structure, but honestly its such an insignificant issue that the entire tone of everything you said baffles me... I mean I'm usually quick to be a **** and that attitude surprises even me...
Surely all of them should be put behind a cheat flag then?!