New Ideas For The Game
Oneiric_Zephyr
Join Date: 2003-01-07 Member: 11996Members
Join Date: 2003-01-07 Member: 11996Members
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance2.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance2.phtml</a>
This guy has made an essay of new changes he finds should be implemented. Some of these changes are big changes, but they should be seriously considered by those who created this game. It is very long but I ask that you read the whole thing if you plan to read it at all. Thank you.
This guy has made an essay of new changes he finds should be implemented. Some of these changes are big changes, but they should be seriously considered by those who created this game. It is very long but I ask that you read the whole thing if you plan to read it at all. Thank you.
Comments
Everyone really should read this, and think about it a bit.
I think he's missing the whole team game prospect of it there. Aside from that he seems to want to change nearly every aspect of gameplay.
Defending a hive early on with OCs.
lol. That's what skulks are for.
Now he wants marines not to be able to build in or around hive rooms to counter phase rushing and such. Basically what he's saying is that since it's a hard tactic for him to overcome the game should change.
Carapace is insanely powerful?! wtf?
He obviously doesn't understand hive sight at all...
A skulk is too weak right now. Give it 100 life and 50 armor with 200% absorbtion. That's without carapace.
<b>** I pledge to be nicer from now on or I'll regret it. **</b>
He keeps talking about the outcome of rushing and skirmishes between both teams, and saying that depending on the outcome something bad will happen for the losing team and should be fixed. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>** I pledge to be nicer from now on or I'll regret it. **</b>
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read->comprehend->post
also judging by the rest of your reply you totally missed the point of this article... read the whole thing then reply.
Basically trying to get rid of all the good stuff that, to him, sucks. Regeneration and Scent of Fear are suddenly useless here, although it seems most people prefer Regen over Carapace, and Scent of Fear is really the only GOOD upgrade from sensory. Sensory is almost always the 3rd hive chamber, so you cant really use cloaking for sneaking up on marines, unless you really have an itch to randomly charge marines that cant see your massively cloaked onos self o_o. and Xenocide PARASITING? wtf? Nobody would use it if it was changed to that, I don't think we all want to turn around and look at the marine start and see 329487394793473 yellow circles. Parasiting buildings has no purpose other than to parasite ONE BUILDING and mark that for killing (like the TF or phase gate) And if you've got 3 hives to be paraciding (new ability name! o_o), parasited marines are just gonna die as they spawn, so essentially xenocide becomes useless. AND REMOVE BABBLERS? Oh hell no, babblers are the ****, who cares if they arent uber powerful, they are just the coolest ability. web + babblers = get pwned.
Xenocide PARASITING? wtf? Nobody would use it if it was changed to that, I don't think we all want to turn around and look at the marine start and see 329487394793473 yellow circles. Parasiting buildings has no purpose other than to parasite ONE BUILDING and mark that for killing (like the TF or phase gate)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody uses regeneration who is decent as a skulk, carapace is so much better it's not even funny.
And compaired to silence/cloaking in one i don't see why someone would take scent of fear.
Also, what is so hard about understanding xenocide as he put it, skulk runs in and xenos... <b>ALL BUILDINGS TAKE DAMGE DOWN TO VERY LITTLE HEALTH</b> and get parasited, now i don't know about you but i wounde't mind seing a huge cluster of red turrets on my hivesite to chomp away at.
Remove silence totally <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> psh, I'd get killed a lot easier, then.
His idea on how to change it as the hives increase was cute, since that's essentially how the upgrade system was meant to work, to assist the other upgrades, but attempting to not give 1 ability the ueber-preference (COUGH COUGH ADRENALINE COUGH COUGH). *shrug*
Cute, but I'll wait for his 3rd post before thinking of supporting him.
<b>** I pledge to be nicer from now on or I'll regret it. **</b>
Also, it makes the game more like another game that exists, further encouraging people into claiming it's just a copycat of Starcraft/AvP/or whatever.
Second: it's very powerful. Left as a 3rd hive ability or not. Not to mention he's campaigning about making it more viable for marines to come back from a 3rd hive onos charge and such. Come on, with all the res nodes guarded/unguarded- one skulk could totally take them down. The marines would have to be running all over the map to fix them so they don't lose them- with welders-, making it a costly affair and very time consuming.
This is just silly to the current state of the game. Maybe the game WOULD work under ALL of his changes- but he's totally reworking the game and would have to go through a lot of playtesting to incorporate.
I admit, as an alien, I'd love to have a turret farm/resource node down to 1 or 2 health for me to munch on. But as a marine, that would suck utterly. I don't really see the balance with it.
<b>** I pledge to be nicer from now on or I'll regret it. This is my final warning. **</b>
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I fail to see where i called you ignorant, all I did was point out that part of your reply was factually incorrect. And right now 2 skulks chain xenociding can take down turrets fast too.
Not remove silence, but combine with cloak and make a sensory upgrade instead.
BTW, I'm not Shambler but I am in his clan
In any case- his counter system seems to me like it'd be very linear. Whoever reaches the top of the tree first wins or something. This would mean that should aliens lose a hive, they suddenly have NOTHING to counter the marines current force and would be easy pickings- while marines losing a hive room would simply have bigger aliens to worry about. All the marines need are resources to climb that linear counter track.
Parasite is given to Skulks so that everyone can immediately use it at start. If the marines rush out of the base, one skulk can tag them so the entire team can track them down and ruin their little hive capture. I don't see why that should be changed at all.
The idea of being able to build a second upgrade tower with 1 hive at a higher cost... hmmm. Depending if they are limited to only having one of those extra towers, or something, I might like this idea. Imagine that. Still don't know how balanced it is though.
To be honest- the reason I don't like the article in it's entirety is because he's trying to change everything that the NS crew has created over the last two years and states his paragraphs like "This needs to be changed" or "This should be changed"- as if he knows better than the entire staff...? We have all wanted to change something from time to time, and many of us have yelled and baggered about it in the forums. But in the end, they were right.
I trust the Playtesters and the Dev team.
Some one suggested it being an NSMod. Mod of a Mod. It could work- if Flayra was willing to release the code <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
LOL. I also bet if he actually had the idea and capability to create it first his way- that we'd of all found bugs/imbalances and stuff in it that we would gripe about and this SAME debate would be made of Flayra's work.
If I were able to play his completely modified version then we could all have a competent debate about it. Just because something SOUNDS good, doesn't make it so.
To be fair, the opposite can be said as well. Maybe I'll be eating a big plate of crow someday. But only if his version is ever created.
Stealth, that was what he called it. I see a lot of people yelling for stealth instead of becoming those long-forgotten Ninja-Skulks of yore <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
By the way, I'm shambler. I wrote it.
<b>** I pledge to be nicer from now on or I'll regret it. **</b>
In NS, this would mean giving the starting points defenses to begin with, built-in defenses, and/or even more hitpoints. Personally, I love the idea of starting with some buildings pre-made. Making the starting points less of a focus of the game and making it more about the resource points would be a tremendous improvement IMO. It would lead to longer deeper games, and less all-or-nothing aggression.
People, you need to realize that some of Eats's ideas are good.
Eats, you need to realize that some of your ideas are not good.
I don't claim to be very good at balancing, so I won't get into the specifics... The one overall problem I've noticed is that in any sustained battle, the aliens are at a serious disadvantage. This article basically changes the marine team so that, except for jetpack and welder, every marine spawns fully-equipped. You have to remember that an alien still has to spend a considerable amount of resources and TIME to evolve and upgrade every time it dies.
If a level 2 marine is designed to equal a fade (If I remember correctly), what happens in a 2-on-2 battle? Assuming the players fight intelligently and don't pretend it's a pair of one-on-one fights, marines A and B fire on Fade A... Fades A and B fire on marine A.... Marine A and Fade A are killed. Marine B and Fade B fight it out, and, according to the article (And with equally-skilled players), the fade would end up retreating to heal, and both survive. Net result: Aliens lose 44-48 resources, marines lose 1 (The price of a marine respawn).
Anyway... I'm probably missing something there, but you get the point...
Also, I think these suggestions really move away from the original intent of the hive setup... When the aliens have 1 hive (Apart from early-game), the marines are in control... 2 hives is supposed to be somewhat balanced... Once the aliens get 3 hives, the marines are SUPPOSED to be at a serious disadvantage, forcing them to make a last-ditch effort to recapture a hive.
Ah well... Just trying to give some constructive criticism instead of the growing trend of "These ideas suck!"...
This is not true, talk to Flayra if you don't believe me. He does not want this, and I'm glad because its not a very good model.
"If a level 2 marine is designed to equal a fade (If I remember correctly), what happens in a 2-on-2 battle? Assuming the players fight intelligently and don't pretend it's a pair of one-on-one fights, marines A and B fire on Fade A... Fades A and B fire on marine A.... Marine A and Fade A are killed. Marine B and Fade B fight it out, and, according to the article (And with equally-skilled players), the fade would end up retreating to heal, and both survive. Net result: Aliens lose 44-48 resources, marines lose 1 (The price of a marine respawn)."
Both fades would hit and run the marines. The fades may be damaged severely but they should both survive and go heal, then come back and finish off the marines, unless the marines healed which wastes money. But this is ok because they are "about equal" in a plain fighting condition with no healing. NS doesn't actually work like that though and the fades would win at least economically if not outright if they could flee and heal. This is fine though because marines are free while fades cost money. Marines need to rely on turrets for defenses in battles like this, just like they should.
Ok, you guys are assuming lower prices and build times on the upgrades then I intended basically. By adjusting the prices through play testing in clan settings these problems could be resolved. Also this game still does have 1 shots. The only way to counter an onos is by using a 1 shot jetpack, which would have an increased price. Also a fade lerk team would be harsh to deal with without a shotgun. Both sides would be spending money. Also consider that once gorges have 3 hives up and all upgrades, all their resources go towards towers as well. The differences in the two resource systems would also help to solve this problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A fade is a one shot, as is a ha hmg marine(who moves even slower then the average marine). Now a fade can both run faster then a marine, and teleport to add to his mad speed advantage. This, coupled with healing from hives and defensive chambers, means a fade could never lose a straight encounter with a ha hmg marine in a realistic game setting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without really getting into this discussion (re: flame war), there aren't many "realisitc game settings" where this is true. How often is an HA, HMG marine walking around, bumping into a fade, which deals some amount of damage to the marine while taking considerably more damage. Then this fade runs away, heals, and returns to find the same marine (without backup, hasn't been repaired/healed) and repeats the cycle...
As I said, I really <i>wanted</i> to read your ideas but....
I've thought a lot about how the game is structured now, and I think I see a large way it could be improved: add more. I'll explain.
Each team basically has three different stages: early, mid, and late-game. For marines it's lmg/la, ha/shotgun or la hmg (or variations), and ha/hmg and ha/gl. For aliens it is skulks, fades, then onos. The problem is that as soon as a team hits the next level it is a big enough leap in power that its effects are felt immediately and devastatingly for the other team. To make things worse, usually marines just skip mid-game and head right for ha/hmg, and fades are powerful enough (for whatever reason. skill, too much damage, whatever). As soon as something new becomes available BAM!! it hits the other team like a ton of bricks and the game will soon be over. Suddenly you have an unstoppable group of 3-marines in ha/hmg or 3 fades (I know they aren't unstoppable, I'm just talking about the majority of pub games). Usually the only way the game does go on is if the two teams happen to hit the next level at the same time, which doesn't happen often.
My suggestion is to add more technologies to create "buffers": early-mid level and mid-late level games. Then each step wouldn't be such a leap in power. It would more or less force teams to actually use these technologies instead of skipping over them or risk falling behind too far. Because teams
This would require more things: more aliens, more weapons, more buildings. I believe that just a few new thing would be required to create these new levels. I know this would be a challenge, both in coding and in balancing, and maybe there is a way around adding things. I also realize that being an FPS may require a shorter and simpler tech tree than regular RTSs. But I believe that this will create more enjoyable, longer lasting games. More possible tactics paths to take because there are now more "classes." People are encouraged more to actually get lots of resources because going thru the whole tech tree now requires way more resources, and this cuts down on rushing (which I don't think is very enjoyable for either team).
Just my 3-cents (I believe all the time I spent typing is worth another penny).
In this case the Kharaa just happen to have their tech tree tied to certain spots on the map.
And guys, play nice, the mods have had to edit at least 3 posts that I saw when I reread this thread!
His thoughts on Silence and Cloaking and Stealth are intriguing as well.
I think the problem lies in that compared to the aliens the marines have less toys to play with. At my count, the marines have:
1. Pistol
2. LMG
3. HMG
4. Shotgun
5. Mines
6. Welder
7. Grenade Launcher
8. Jetpack
9. Heavy Armor
10. Knife
While the aliens have...
1. Bite
2. Parasite
3. Xenocide
4. Leap Attack
5. Lerk Bite
6. Spike Shooter
7. Umbra
8. Spores
9. Claw swipe
10. Acid rocket
11. Blink
12. Bile bomb
13. Gorge spit
14. Web
15. Healing spray
16. Babblers
17. Onos bite
18. Onos charge
19. Paralyze
20. Primal scream
Upgrades do not count, since they are not 'factory installed' on each alien type or marine, but instead require towers/research.
Clearly the aliens have more options, and this may seem unbalanced. In terms of sheer variety, it is, but I can't accurately claim if it is unbalancing statistically or not.
Good point on the "dynamics" from NoImagination, too. NS games are decided by what is done within the first few minutes of play - a slow commander dooms his team, a clueless gorge sabotages just the same. If things move smoothly.. i.e. your team works effectively.. comebacks on the other side are only possible through luck, preying upon the other team's skill weakness (if you're effective, this isn't an option), or players leaving the game (on either side). The final round of the game.. 3rd hive aliens, or uber-upgraded HMG HA's.. is so depressing that most players just up and quit. I know I've done it, simply because it becomes so frustrating to not only lose but be beaten into submission <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines:
Looks like a lot of one-shot stuff is gone. So what will the commander be doing? He now has health, shotgun, welder, and jetpack to hand out. HMG and Grenades are gone. I guess it will be less of handing out stuff and more just clicking upgrade buttons (and telling marines where to go).
Shotgun just feels wrong as a secondary weapon. And one-handed?!!
I have some worries. I wonder what the commander role will be like when there are a LOT fewer one-shot things to dispense. Perhaps it will be more laid-back, less micro-manage. Or maybe it will just be a boring job that nobody will want to do.
Upgrade-based improvements are fine, but what that also means is that these improvements are PERMANENT, which is very dangerous unless the strength was reduced. At the same time, it makes the team a lot more BLAND and homogenous. The thing that fosters creativity and teamplay is disparate strengths that force people to work together. If everybody has the same identical upgrades, there is no difference, and hence less teamplay. Why stick around the HA guy to weld him? He is basically free, as you are, so you might as well go out and rambo. (Edit: this is one of the advantages of one-shot stuff - you have to use strategy to protect the resource investment!!) Also you lose the ability to totally suit up a handful of players, leaving the others, and instead everybody gets the exact, presumably weaker compromise upgrades. For instance, I might want to suit up 3 HA guys and have them be a vanguard, with 3 other light guys. In the new scheme nobody would be "heavier" or "lighter" than anybody else, so I lose this ability to differentiate (maybe I only want to use resources on those who have proven they know what they are doing).
<b>I think differentiation is important</b>. It makes players feel "special" and actually can have uses <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Aliens get this obviously with their various classes. In this scheme there is no "support" role for marines. All are alike basically.
Aliens:
Does Lerk start with umbra, or ONLY get it after a 2nd chamber upgrade? If it's only after the upgrade then I agree, shotguns (or *something*) should be more affective against it. Seeing as GL is gone, this has to be shotgun, which makes sense - more bullets/pellets in a very short time than LMG can deal. <b>I like this idea a lot, and think it should be put in the as a minor addition to the current game, regardless of whether any design changes are made. Shotgun is unfortunately underused, and GLs being the only counter to umbra increase the "spammishness" of the game.</b>
I agree that BileBombs are "spammish". Maybe two modes of fire for acid rocket or something? meh