Something to counter jetpacks..?
hephophap
asdasd Join Date: 2014-04-08 Member: 195258Members
asdasd Join Date: 2014-04-08 Member: 195258Members
I'm just wondering, I see jetpacks more and more and most of the games nowadays result in a jetpack rush on some hive and 5 seconds later its gone.
Of course this leaves marines defenseless so you can do something with this as alien, but the main reason this is so effective seems to be that jetpacks are nigh killable in the air.
Yes, lerks and fades can chase them, but they can also expect a shotgun or GL to the face.
Skulks are limited by (if available) leap, some wall jumping and waiting for them to run out of energy, but in a hive like Cargo, you can jump all you want, you ain't gonna get that JP.
It somehow feels wrong that essentially ONE jetpack can fly in and if there is no (good) lerk around, that JP can reduce the hive to 50% by just flying around.
Should JPs be adjusted (something along the line of longer cooldown), or should aliens have a better counter/response to JPs?
Web could work if it didn't cost res and it didn't get removed by every stray nade, but I don't know if that is the best solution.
Of course this leaves marines defenseless so you can do something with this as alien, but the main reason this is so effective seems to be that jetpacks are nigh killable in the air.
Yes, lerks and fades can chase them, but they can also expect a shotgun or GL to the face.
Skulks are limited by (if available) leap, some wall jumping and waiting for them to run out of energy, but in a hive like Cargo, you can jump all you want, you ain't gonna get that JP.
It somehow feels wrong that essentially ONE jetpack can fly in and if there is no (good) lerk around, that JP can reduce the hive to 50% by just flying around.
Should JPs be adjusted (something along the line of longer cooldown), or should aliens have a better counter/response to JPs?
Web could work if it didn't cost res and it didn't get removed by every stray nade, but I don't know if that is the best solution.
Comments
I'm not saying a tweak to JPs is out of the question, but I don't think aliens lack a proper counter to them at this point. Skill will always vary among players which will always cause certain things to seem OP initially, but I promise you there is always something equaling frustrating that players/teams can utilize at all stages of the game. I've witnessed unbelievable comebacks that some players may never experience because they're always giving up at the first sign of defeat but I promise you there is always a counter. It may not always work, but it's ALWAYS worth a shot.
EDIT: too many always there venga
Not really. The twitch movements and skill required to chase and kill a jetpack marine is absolutely absurd when you compare the alien vs marine experience, especially when the alien attack is a f'in melee attack making it even harder. The movement system is just so awkward and restrictive in the air (fade, skulk), and it's just way too hard to control while trying to land melee attacks (fade, skulk, lerk). I honestly don't even bother engaging in these scenarios unless I know it's a very weak player.
Now compare that experience with the jetpack. It's super easy to control, very low learning curve, large energy pool, huge freedom of movement in all directions, super cheap, and you have a hitscan weapon.
The skill gaps just don't make any sense, but it's one of those things I've learned to overlook and don't see change coming.
There are counters for jetpacks, absolutely. The problem is they're near impossible to use effectively by the average player.
get good at lerk/fade
@ns2isgood
Well, I manage to kill jetpackers easy enough, and I dont consider myself top-tier. I also know lots of other players that manage. If you can't manage, that's a shame.
Frankly I find it harder to get a solid SG shot on a fade who's attacking ME when I'm JPing around cargo :P
I will now go over your other assertions, mainly aimed at implying JP movement is somehow superior to fade blink/SS.
Fade blink/ skulk leap both allow you to instantly hit top speed in ANY direction by tapping the right mouse button.
Jetpackers on the other hand have to hold space to move up, and take forever to ascend. They also accelerate relatively slowly wasd-wise, making their movements easy to predict.
Yup, jetpacks are easy to learn how to use, much easier than fade shadowstep. However shadowstep is a damn sight more effective in combat with its high acceleration allowing you to dart around like a maniac. I suggest you learn to play, good sir.
Sure any decent fade/lerk should have no problem with a jetpacker, but a SG jetpackers are a lot more difficult (especially for lerks) and if that jetpacker is getting med support it turns into a uphill struggle.
From personal experience the thing i find difficult about engaging jetpackers is their sometimes erratic movement, and that they can fly backwards retreating at full speed whilst having near full control of their aim.
Nah man, you just gotta climb up through the scaffolding on the sides of cargo, along the ceiling, hop to the crates in the middle, then jump over to the vent.
EDIT: I actually did this in a real match just the other day!
The trick is to have been playing well enough as a team to delay jps for as long as possible by limiting t-res and p-res.
If marines have no viable late game options to finish the game effectively (apart from arcs which are easily countered) then we can all enjoy playing long ass boring public games, and ain't nobody got time for that.
Next discussion...
Can't say I'm surprised. This forum is filled with people like yourself that try and take the elitist road. Usually people are more upfront and cut to the point and blame player skill in balance topics, but I like your passive approach in trying to veil it.
It's not about speed or how much better they are. It's about the required effort and investment. The skill gaps between using and learning the two is ridiculous. Give a rookie a jetpack and shotgun and they learn how to effectively use it in a few rounds, if not a couple minutes while all at the same time having fun with the mechanics.
Give that same rookie a fade or lerk and tell them to fly around and get mid-air kills and see how they do, heck even normal killing is very hard with the lerk. I guarantee the majority become frustrated with the complex mechanics. I know every single friend I've introduced to this game has always complained about the advanced life forms being too hard. And that's after 3 seperate gift copies that are now collecting dust in my friends library. It's just way too complex for the average user.
Jetpacks can essentially be rushed and achieved in any stage of the game. Saying they're late game tactic is incredibly wrong. That's like saying Leap and Lerks are late game tactic, lol. I do a nice balance when I command and get them right around when the mid game starts to break out, so the Marines usually have at the very least Armor and Weapons 1 to go with it.
Except when they have grenade launchers and they have moderate to decent accuracy. Maybe grenade launcher shots should bounce of most lifeforms (maybe not including onos?) and only explode-on-hit if it's a building?
It's not much of a discussion if you only listen to yourself.
The point is not how they get there, but when a comm decides to beacon and just rush every hive, even though the aliens KNOW the rush is coming, you can't stop it.
I've seen hive rushes fail before, but it's very rare. Some nicely positioned whips with a crag can really help. Also bone walls, enzymes, etc can really put the fight in your favor if you have a group defending. There are plenty of tools to help fight of hive rushes, but the biggest problem I think is getting your team to rally.
With marines, you can beacon and you have everyone in a group ready to rush regardless of how spread the marine team is or if they're out of position. It's a tactic that I don't think the beacon feature was intended to be used for, but it's very effective and used a lot. If aliens are out of position when the marine rush starts, they're screwed. They will slowly come in to defend 1 by 1 against a wall of 10+ marines and slowly get egg locked or spawned on the other side of the map. The kicker, marine commander beacons everyone out after the hive is killed to save all the RES that would be lost from dropped weapons and jetpacks.
Now comparing that to Alien, they can do the same type of rush and rally, but it's not forced like a beacon, so it's a harder to get a group. Even if you do get a group, Marines can beacon and fight it off with a beacon in most cases unless their commander is slow to beacon or doesn't see the attack. If they see the rush coming, it's an easy advance beacon to wipe the Aliens 99.9% of the time.
Anyways, the best counter for hive rush as an Alien is to usually attack the main marine base. Wipe out all their upgrades, proto, etc. The problem is the Marines will always have the head start and again, rallying Alien team is a PITA the majority of the time.
And often i see fades and lerks that don't go after a jetpacker in cargo.
Also, cargo is mainly the problem, not JP.
And i would prefer to keep cargo as it is.
It would be nice if web isn't such a late game thing. And that webs can hang as really long rope's on the ceiling in cargo, making it harder to fly around.
Wow, great counter discussion you have there. And this is coming from the guy that says Jetpacks are a late game tactic, lol.
But the more i think about it. I would rather jetpacks were left alone, but they are no longer able to carry GLs.
Because whilst jetpack shotguns can be difficult to fight against, at least it requires skill on the marines part, whereas jetpack GLs take virtually no skill yet are very effective.
A lone jetpack shotgun user can kill all but fades/oni with little difficulty, allowing them to survive for much longer and thus deal more damage. Plus the shotgun makes getting to alien hives alive much easier, and with a little comm support they can become incredibly difficult to kill.
On the other hand, a lone jetpack GL user will have a much harder time killing skulks and lerks, as they have to either have really good aim, or rely entirely on luck. As a result they often die much faster. (especially since they also take damage from their own grenades)
As an alien player, I can kill a jetpack GL user with ease, whereas a jetpack shotgun user is a massive PITA to kill.
I personally think they should just change it so jetpacks can't fly backwards at full speed... That alone would make a world of difference.
cargo is a very extreme example of jps having a huge advantage in there, i'd rather blame it on map design than on game balance. that said, the entrances to cargo are rather narrow so you still have a possibility of keeping them from getting in unharmed e.g. using some whips around the corners (not saying this is always a good counter as thats quite some investment, but so are gl/shotguns + jetpacks right?).
rarely ever using webs i imagine they could also help there if combined with hydras and/or whips (or a very aware team).
in general, IF you have to chase a marine as a team instead of counter-attacking their base (e.g. not enough time before hive goes down), its usually a good idea to fan out instead of everyone running to the marines current position he will not remain at anyway. my approach is always to try and figure out where he will land when his fuel runs out, preferably without being seen myself. that way you can sometimes land bites even without leap.
There already was a nerf to it like 2 patches ago. If a marine is inefficient with fuel then you should easily be able to kill him.
Jetpack rush has a counter, it's called Lerks. If your Lerks aren't able to kill W0/A0 jetpack marines then it's an issue with your team not the game's mechanics.
It feels like we're saying similar things actually, just from different perspectives.
I'm blaming your lack of skill for your assertion that JPs are hard to kill with the faster, more agile flight of lifeforms.
You're essentially blaming the high skill ceiling of aliens - pretty much as blaming the high skill level of players, in my eyes - for newbies not being able to take down jetpackers.
And you know, I would argue that most rookies, even with fps experience, are going to be absolutely no-where near mastering killing aliens with SG within a few hours. It only takes a few hours in combat to get a basic level of proficciency with a pparticular lifeform, in any case. Did your friends ever try combat?