Lol, @McGlaspie appears to have an issue when the beacon gets cancelled. Fix one, find another..
Sadly true. Mainly due to me being the only person doing actual testing. Working on a plan to mitigate these damned script errors in future public builds.
@DarkflameQThank you for posting these script errors! Having these strack traces to work from saves me a huge amount of time.
just gave this mod a try and its quite fun! i like how basically every equipment is actually viable (maybe except mines).
most epic match lasted an hour with "most rts" acting as a tie-breaker after 1 hour filled with lots of turnarounds. everything was possible until the very end, we won via 4 of us sacrificing ourselves to a single shotgunner in order to successfully building up the power for some rt in the last remaining 2 seconds or so...
just gave this mod a try and its quite fun! i like how basically every equipment is actually viable (maybe except mines).
most epic match lasted an hour with "most rts" acting as a tie-breaker after 1 hour filled with lots of turnarounds. everything was possible until the very end, we won via 4 of us sacrificing ourselves to a single shotgunner in order to successfully building up the power for some rt in the last remaining 2 seconds or so...
The most common error is the flame one, the others are far and few between.
Thankfully now the grenade spam has been minimized, the biggest issue with MvM is the fact exo's are still so pathetically weak in terms of armor.
Even at 800 armor they are still too scared to rush a base and there's a good reason why, spending 50 points only to lose your exo in the space of seconds just sucks.
Considering a machine gun at level 0 damage can inflict 500 damage points per clip, you can destroy an exo (on armor 3) with two clips, which is pretty laughable to the point i don't even bother buying them, i'd much rather invest those 50 points into grenades.
Here's a video of me killing 3 exo's within the space of a couple of minutes in the same match with pretty much 1 machine gun clip at weapons 3.
Exo's should be a scary sight, but right now they are not (with the exception of railgun exo's since they can kill a marine dead in one over charged hit but you only become scared of them once they have killed you and revealed what model of exo they are :P).
Onuses worked so well in Vanilla simply because with charge ability they were a lot faster than exo's and they had 1400 health and up to 400 armor, i think exo's should be trailed at 1000 armor and maybe given a speed increase on the thrusters as well (to sort of mirror the Onuses strengths that makes them so effective at ending bases and speeding games along).
Another thing that could be done to help speed games along is increase arc movement speed to encourage their use more by commanders as a quick strike against bases as very rarely do commanders actually use them for attacking bases at the moment (mostly used to attack Nano).
I'm just feeding back, not trying to be negative or non constructive, i think it's a good idea to post my thoughts on the current version on this topic so you can look at them at a time suitable for you rather than me trying to convey them all over a Steam conversation
The positive thing is i don't believe there to be any in balance in terms of the marines fighting, just the higher units, once you have the health on the exo's balanced, you should see less stale mates.
Edit: I just commanded a match for the first time and you've doubled the price of Arcs to 20?
Nope, arcs are 20 team supply and 15res. (robot factory is 15, plus 15 or 20 for arc factory)
you don't see a lot of com use them because they cost a lot of TS, and often we just can't.
Something I'm wondering : FT are fine in term of damage, but since MvM is always long range fights, would it be fine to lengthen the range of the Flame Thrower ?
( Oh, and DarkflameQ , exos have 800 ARMOR point, and lmg does medium damage, it means that is you hit for 100dmg an exo, you'll drop 50 point of the exo, cause 1 Armor point absorbs 2 damage. If nothing has been changed here)
McGlaspie. You know my background on this and how rare it feels to state this. LMG damage should be nerfed, back to 11 or 10 damage.
I massively underestimated the effect of not having armor be repaired on Armories. MACs also have player collusion and not that strong as a way to repair people. I should write more, but not in the right mind to do the full analysis on it.
( Oh, and DarkflameQ , exos have 800 ARMOR point, and lmg does medium damage, it means that is you hit for 100dmg an exo, you'll drop 50 point of the exo, cause 1 Armor point absorbs 2 damage. If nothing has been changed here)
Watch my previous video, you can clearly see i'm doing 650 damage on an exo with one machine gun clip at weapon 3.
If the damage can be reduced against exo's to no more than 400 per clip at weapon 3, they wouldn't die as quick and thus wouldn't be so easily taken down by one marine.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
What he is trying to explain is because armor is damaged at 50% of the damage amount, you are doing 650 damage output, but the armor reduces that to 320 actual damage.
Again, I haven't looked at the code for a while around armor, I deleted it from my mod, so I am not sure if the above statement is correct, but armor certainly used to have a 50% rate at one point. This is a mod and I haven't for some reason yet looked at the code... :-?
What he is trying to explain is because armor is damaged at 50% of the damage amount, you are doing 650 damage output, but the armor reduces that to 320 actual damage.
Again, I haven't looked at the code for a while around armor, I deleted it from my mod, so I am not sure if the above statement is correct, but armor certainly used to have a 50% rate at one point. This is a mod and I haven't for some reason yet looked at the code... :-?
Well i've been in an exo and i've killed plenty of exo's in the mod, i haven't looked at the code either but as it stands, they go down EASY at the moment.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
@HeadShot I actually lowered the TS cost of ARCs to 15 in v3.2, it was 20 in v3.1, I'll definetely be looking into way to make them more useful. The FT range has been increased slightly to try and tone down the problem you mention. I'll have to rework it's visual effect, almost from scratch, if I'm to increase it's range any further. Which isn't a simple thing to do and make it look halfway decent. Needless to say, I'm aware of this and will try to improve it. I'd really prefer to keep the FT in the mod. I mean who doesn't enjoy setting things on fire?
McGlaspie. You know my background on this and how rare it feels to state this. LMG damage should be nerfed, back to 11 or 10 damage.
I massively underestimated the effect of not having armor be repaired on Armories. MACs also have player collusion and not that strong as a way to repair people. I should write more, but not in the right mind to do the full analysis on it.
I think you need to take causality into account. Let's say that change is made, what are the impacts? Not just to the Exo, but everything. I chose 12 specifically to increase several factors: game pacing, Marines vs Marine (yay, that was punny), Marines shooting structures, and how common the Rifle is. Changing it's value now would significantly affect everything in the mod, and as a result slow down the pace. This would also increase the "Stalemate-Plauge" that's in the inherent in this now symmetrical mod. Sorry, but the Rifle damage is here to stay. This doesn't mean that Exo's will forever be push-overs. There is ALWAYS multiple ways to solve a problem. And I'm cooking up a plan but it's going to be a little while because RL is yet again kicking my butt.
What he is trying to explain is because armor is damaged at 50% of the damage amount, you are doing 650 damage output, but the armor reduces that to 320 actual damage.
Again, I haven't looked at the code for a while around armor, I deleted it from my mod, so I am not sure if the above statement is correct, but armor certainly used to have a 50% rate at one point. This is a mod and I haven't for some reason yet looked at the code... :-?
Well i've been in an exo and i've killed plenty of exo's in the mod, i haven't looked at the code either but as it stands, they go down EASY at the moment.
Not worth the point investment :P
There is a bit of confusion around this because of how Damage (generally) is calculated and the function of Armor. It's worh mentioning this is also the case in NS2. In order to understand the Damage Model, you shouldn't look at Health and Armor as separate. They're effectively the same thing. All Armor does is increase Effective Health of an entity by X amount. The X being slightly variable because there are multiple types of armor: Normal and Heavy. Although, Heavy armor is not used anymore in NS2 nor MvM (afaik). So, what does that all mean? How about an example:
Marine Stats
100 Health
30 Armor
Marine Effective Health = 100 Health + ( 30 Armor * ArmorHealthMultiplier[2] )
Total: 160 Health
Granted it's a simple example, but the entire game functions this way. It gets more complicated because some Damage Types only do 50% damage per Armor point. Some Damage Types do double damage per Armor point. And in other cases, such as Structural Damage Type, an entity can take double damage, regardless of armor. I'm not going to give a break down of the entire Damage Model of NS2, but I think this should clear up the confusion. The damage indicator numbers shown in-game only show Damage Done in total, but it makes no distinction of how that number is comprised (damage to armor or health).
@McGlaspie if I remember correctly for example FT are doing x2 dmg on marines. And exos are only taking 50% damage per armor point so 800 armor means 1600 effective health against LMG.
It would have been better to have an indicator with different colors depending of with type of damage you made, borderlands style. But well. Nope.
And well good luck finding the perfect balance and usefulness for every weapon of this game...
(Anyway you made a great job so far ! I really enjoy this mod again (cause I've been playing it since b249 ? well from the beginning )
MvM is the only reason why i play NS2 anymore, lol
There are other great mods like Faded Veteran (a very recent update that far improves on the original Faded mod thanks to scaling fade health, multiple fades per marine count and hallucinations) but not enough people have the balls to play such a scary mod, it is such a shame that the user base of NS2 is so small.
Now UWE have pretty much slowed down / stopped updating the game, NS2 can finally be modded to high heaven, i've been waiting for this moment for a year and a half, awesome!
My only hope is that a) the rumored final build 265 doesn't break all the glorious mods again and b) that it's not too late and the game dies anyway (263 was one of the worst updates ever that saw 50% of players quit).
Still waiting for the IP spawn and teleporter stuck bugs to be fixed and they were introduced many builds ago with the new collision system they introduced that improved the game in no way what so ever.
What needs to be fixed atm is that your own team can't kill the power with a CC / PG in that room. Had someone constantly reconnect to a server today and just shooting the power, epic trolling...
What needs to be fixed atm is that your own team can't kill the power with a CC / PG in that room. Had someone constantly reconnect to a server today and just shooting the power, epic trolling...
This was temporarily resolved in the previous build by making power nodes invulnerable (which led to longer games due to confusion on how to beat the enemy without taking down their power), then the voting system was fixed (ish) to allow kicking again and the ability to destroy power nodes was brought back in.
I ban people who troll whether it's trolling via commander or killing their own power nodes, it's still a pain though, one day McGlaspie will get the time to do proper power node ownership.
I'm not sure if it's worth all the effort through, for MvM, destroying power nodes as a method of winning is sort of lame, if a team truly wants to win, all they have to do is concentrate team fire on the IP's / CC, it's a lot more strategic and not to mention satisfying.
Hey, something i see often ! when you're on the orange team, sometimes some teammates have the blue camo Oo
Maybe it's due to team switch ? It feels like you're fighting with a Team fortress spy in your team x)
This shouldn't be happening anymore, i haven't seen it happen in the last couple of games (then again not many people switch teams during a match), you should take a screenshot the next time you see it
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I played a few rounds MvM and it is indeed fun for a short time. (Lets say 2-3 rounds)
But,
i was shocked how bad 80% of the players are in terms of: movement, aiming and mapawarenes.
Mapawarenes need some time for sure, but as MvM is basicly a "normal" shooter, aim and movement shouldnt be that problem.
Maybe cause gameplay is more quake like and the CoD and B4 players have problems with this aspect of the game.
Dont know.
But if i want t play a "normal" shooter, i have so many better alternatives than MvM.
The 2 total different Sides and ways to play the game is why i love NS2.
If you really want to see how players are bad at playing MvM, just play until the server change mode (sometimes it load a .ns2 map and we're back to NS2 MvA game) and look desperately at everyone not able to play a standard game anymore, aliens conceding the first minute, alien coms that don't know what to do, etc...
Comments
@DarkflameQ Thank you for posting these script errors! Having these strack traces to work from saves me a huge amount of time.
most epic match lasted an hour with "most rts" acting as a tie-breaker after 1 hour filled with lots of turnarounds. everything was possible until the very end, we won via 4 of us sacrificing ourselves to a single shotgunner in order to successfully building up the power for some rt in the last remaining 2 seconds or so...
It was an epic match!
Here's a great match i had on the latest build (3.2)
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ccc49ef64feb6ea32fe8
The most common error is the flame one, the others are far and few between.
Thankfully now the grenade spam has been minimized, the biggest issue with MvM is the fact exo's are still so pathetically weak in terms of armor.
Even at 800 armor they are still too scared to rush a base and there's a good reason why, spending 50 points only to lose your exo in the space of seconds just sucks.
Considering a machine gun at level 0 damage can inflict 500 damage points per clip, you can destroy an exo (on armor 3) with two clips, which is pretty laughable to the point i don't even bother buying them, i'd much rather invest those 50 points into grenades.
Here's a video of me killing 3 exo's within the space of a couple of minutes in the same match with pretty much 1 machine gun clip at weapons 3.
Exo's should be a scary sight, but right now they are not (with the exception of railgun exo's since they can kill a marine dead in one over charged hit but you only become scared of them once they have killed you and revealed what model of exo they are :P).
Onuses worked so well in Vanilla simply because with charge ability they were a lot faster than exo's and they had 1400 health and up to 400 armor, i think exo's should be trailed at 1000 armor and maybe given a speed increase on the thrusters as well (to sort of mirror the Onuses strengths that makes them so effective at ending bases and speeding games along).
Another thing that could be done to help speed games along is increase arc movement speed to encourage their use more by commanders as a quick strike against bases as very rarely do commanders actually use them for attacking bases at the moment (mostly used to attack Nano).
The positive thing is i don't believe there to be any in balance in terms of the marines fighting, just the higher units, once you have the health on the exo's balanced, you should see less stale mates.
Edit: I just commanded a match for the first time and you've doubled the price of Arcs to 20?
No wonder very few commanders use them :P
NS2 bugs in a nutshell.
you don't see a lot of com use them because they cost a lot of TS, and often we just can't.
Something I'm wondering : FT are fine in term of damage, but since MvM is always long range fights, would it be fine to lengthen the range of the Flame Thrower ?
( Oh, and DarkflameQ , exos have 800 ARMOR point, and lmg does medium damage, it means that is you hit for 100dmg an exo, you'll drop 50 point of the exo, cause 1 Armor point absorbs 2 damage. If nothing has been changed here)
I massively underestimated the effect of not having armor be repaired on Armories. MACs also have player collusion and not that strong as a way to repair people. I should write more, but not in the right mind to do the full analysis on it.
If the damage can be reduced against exo's to no more than 400 per clip at weapon 3, they wouldn't die as quick and thus wouldn't be so easily taken down by one marine.
They could stay on 800 armor then.
Again, I haven't looked at the code for a while around armor, I deleted it from my mod, so I am not sure if the above statement is correct, but armor certainly used to have a 50% rate at one point. This is a mod and I haven't for some reason yet looked at the code... :-?
Not worth the point investment :P
I think you need to take causality into account. Let's say that change is made, what are the impacts? Not just to the Exo, but everything. I chose 12 specifically to increase several factors: game pacing, Marines vs Marine (yay, that was punny), Marines shooting structures, and how common the Rifle is. Changing it's value now would significantly affect everything in the mod, and as a result slow down the pace. This would also increase the "Stalemate-Plauge" that's in the inherent in this now symmetrical mod. Sorry, but the Rifle damage is here to stay. This doesn't mean that Exo's will forever be push-overs. There is ALWAYS multiple ways to solve a problem. And I'm cooking up a plan but it's going to be a little while because RL is yet again kicking my butt.
There is a bit of confusion around this because of how Damage (generally) is calculated and the function of Armor. It's worh mentioning this is also the case in NS2. In order to understand the Damage Model, you shouldn't look at Health and Armor as separate. They're effectively the same thing. All Armor does is increase Effective Health of an entity by X amount. The X being slightly variable because there are multiple types of armor: Normal and Heavy. Although, Heavy armor is not used anymore in NS2 nor MvM (afaik). So, what does that all mean? How about an example: Granted it's a simple example, but the entire game functions this way. It gets more complicated because some Damage Types only do 50% damage per Armor point. Some Damage Types do double damage per Armor point. And in other cases, such as Structural Damage Type, an entity can take double damage, regardless of armor. I'm not going to give a break down of the entire Damage Model of NS2, but I think this should clear up the confusion. The damage indicator numbers shown in-game only show Damage Done in total, but it makes no distinction of how that number is comprised (damage to armor or health).
It would have been better to have an indicator with different colors depending of with type of damage you made, borderlands style. But well. Nope.
And well good luck finding the perfect balance and usefulness for every weapon of this game...
(Anyway you made a great job so far ! I really enjoy this mod again (cause I've been playing it since b249 ? well from the beginning
There are other great mods like Faded Veteran (a very recent update that far improves on the original Faded mod thanks to scaling fade health, multiple fades per marine count and hallucinations) but not enough people have the balls to play such a scary mod, it is such a shame that the user base of NS2 is so small.
Now UWE have pretty much slowed down / stopped updating the game, NS2 can finally be modded to high heaven, i've been waiting for this moment for a year and a half, awesome!
My only hope is that a) the rumored final build 265 doesn't break all the glorious mods again and b) that it's not too late and the game dies anyway (263 was one of the worst updates ever that saw 50% of players quit).
Still waiting for the IP spawn and teleporter stuck bugs to be fixed and they were introduced many builds ago with the new collision system they introduced that improved the game in no way what so ever.
I ban people who troll whether it's trolling via commander or killing their own power nodes, it's still a pain though, one day McGlaspie will get the time to do proper power node ownership.
I'm not sure if it's worth all the effort through, for MvM, destroying power nodes as a method of winning is sort of lame, if a team truly wants to win, all they have to do is concentrate team fire on the IP's / CC, it's a lot more strategic and not to mention satisfying.
Maybe it's due to team switch ? It feels like you're fighting with a Team fortress spy in your team x)
(returned to rdy room and j2 solved this)
But,
i was shocked how bad 80% of the players are in terms of: movement, aiming and mapawarenes.
Mapawarenes need some time for sure, but as MvM is basicly a "normal" shooter, aim and movement shouldnt be that problem.
Maybe cause gameplay is more quake like and the CoD and B4 players have problems with this aspect of the game.
Dont know.
But if i want t play a "normal" shooter, i have so many better alternatives than MvM.
The 2 total different Sides and ways to play the game is why i love NS2.