PelargirJoin Date: 2013-07-02Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
No really, I know Loki is the one who is working on this map. But I guess, atm, Kodiak is little more his priority.
Anyway, if we have some informations about this map, it will appear on this topic.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
There's already plenty of those, and even more that are still mods.
Besides that, many of them don't translate well to pub games either (eclipse) ..
So here's hoping whatever is next pertains to the 90% of the player base *first*.. Then accommodates comp play afterwards, because let's be honest, they'll modify it to suit their needs anyways like they always do.
I wouldn't call Jambi, Tram, Summit, Veil (4 maps) plenty, but I guess that's your view on it.
Descent and Biodome aren't prefered in that cycle by comp players for various reasons.
Maybe if more competitive players were willing to maptest on a regular basis (despite how badly the map may play out in development) it would help create a more competitive friendly map?
With Kodiak for example the amount of times I heard @Loki saying he needed more competitive teams to playtest the map its no wonder in its finished state its unlikely to ever be played in comp.
If you guys want another map which fits the requirements to be played at a comp level dont just sit back and ask the mappers (who in most cases are not comp players) to magic a balanced comp map out and actually offer to get involved. Just contact whoever is working on the map, organise some games every few weeks and have them spectate and give them constant feedback, the earlier the better as making sweeping balance changes is a lot easier work when its all in greybox. In my experience with any of the SCC guys at least they love feedback, doesnt matter if you say its a complete pile of ****, as long as you help them work towards a more balanced map they will listen and put in as many hours as is necessary to get it sorted.
@Zinkey Yeah of course that's an option for us to do, however it would probably not be to the same extent that the PT's are doing, because most comp players have to practice their upcoming maps during seasons. If @Loki officially wants this map to go competetive and not just PUB games, then I'm all for it 100% to try get 6v6 games going on it, even if it's gathers with comp players. But that's also up to the mapper, what he wants out of this project, hence my previous post, which you quoted.
Seeing as the official maptest team involved a rotation of nearly all of the high level competitive players through its lifetime (titus, saunamen, snails, imagine, godar, and many others) which attempted to meet twice a week, every week, to test the maps, I don't believe that just having comp players involved will give any feedback that will necessarily "make" a map competitive. I attempted to make Eclipse competitive friendly based their feedback, but as it stands, I don't think that will ever happen, even though most of the comments coming from these players suggested that it would probably be a decent competitive map.
My personal opinion on the subject, as I was involved in developing multiple maps for UWE, is that there is no formula for making a map competitive, and as to why they wont play some maps and will others, there seems no rhyme or reason. I personally think tram is a horrible competitive map. The status of the random spawns has been widdled down to 1 possible configuration over its lifetime due to spawns being imbalanced, and yet its still played. Regardless, I don't believe there is any amount of testing that will "make" a map competitive, they will decide for themselves when the map is finished, and there may or may not be any logic to it. Look at the CS competitive scene, in 10 years, and 3 games, its still virtually the same map rotation.
Seeing as the official maptest team involved a rotation of nearly all of the high level competitive players through its lifetime (titus, saunamen, snails, imagine, godar, and many others) which attempted to meet twice a week, every week, to test the maps, I don't believe that just having comp players involved will give any feedback that will necessarily "make" a map competitive. I attempted to make Eclipse competitive friendly based their feedback, but as it stands, I don't think that will ever happen, even though most of the comments coming from these players suggested that it would probably be a decent competitive map.
My personal opinion on the subject, as I was involved in developing multiple maps for UWE, is that there is no formula for making a map competitive, and as to why they wont play some maps and will others, there seems no rhyme or reason. I personally think tram is a horrible competitive map. The status of the random spawns has been widdled down to 1 possible configuration over its lifetime due to spawns being imbalanced, and yet its still played. Regardless, I don't believe there is any amount of testing that will "make" a map competitive, they will decide for themselves when the map is finished, and there may or may not be any logic to it. Look at the CS competitive scene, in 10 years, and 3 games, its still virtually the same map rotation.
this is kind of how i believed it to be true, im currently developing a map but rather than greybox and test i decided to fully build the map piece by piece and use my own knowledge of what makes a fun map. at least to me in order to build it and balance the rooms as best i can. I think that the props and vents etc play such a large roll in balancing the rooms that it would be counter productive to greybox it out first when so much would have to change just to get the right asthetic.
Im just building for fun and trying to keep it interesting and hopefully people will play it and appreciate the time i put in. im hoping to appeal to public gamers first and foremost
Comp players do provide good feedback and have a high level of understanding of the game which really gives some solid insights.... However there is problems with map adoption rates of new maps (or the complete lack there of). I guess when you put so much value on winning you don't want to get cheated out of a victory by a map layout you don't know like the back of your hand. so its no surprise almost all the early maps get played the most.
and while there is plenty of comp players out there willing to test out new maps I don't think we'll ever see a new one reach critical mass and get played as much as the golden oldies, regardless of how good it is... but i would love to be proven wrong.
Feedback can only go so far. Unless the map designer has a competitive understanding on map balance when first designing the layout, there really is only so much changing a designer can do from feedback. IMO, eclipse never would have worked as a comp map no matter how much feedback we gave. Then again, other maps such as Biodome became a great success.
I wouldn't call Jambi, Tram, Summit, Veil (4 maps) plenty, but I guess that's your view on it.
Descent and Biodome aren't prefered in that cycle by comp players for various reasons.
Descent is widely disliked because of the horizontal spawn vent system. I never have had any major problems with Biodome... aside from the fact it's hard to take down marine naturals.
Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing how this map develops.
I attempted to make Eclipse competitive friendly based their feedback, but as it stands, I don't think that will ever happen, even though most of the comments coming from these players suggested that it would probably be a decent competitive map.
I have always thought eclipse would make a great comp map. I've always said it's hypersensitive to early game and punishes team shortcomings brutally, to the point where really only high level players will do the map justice. I'd love to see it adopted as such.
Agree with the tram sentiments too, frankly.
LokiJoin Date: 2012-07-07Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited May 2014
Kodiak is just hitting the same OMG NEW map syndrome as the rest of new maps. The map has been on the workshop for quite some time to get feedback.
I did push the map to the comp scene to get feedback but 90% of the time people were not interested. Maybe because the map was still 40% greybox? I dunno........
I pushed for the custom map cup to happen (zefram can attest to this how much I pestered him for it) but kodiak hardly got played and only 2 people gave any feedback to which I incorporated that feedback. I asked for kodiak to be included in the AUS custom map cup. It got dropped because of 1 game. Where they pretty much pointed out a few main issues they did not like (after I harrassed them as to why it was not played). That feedback was incorporated. Post NS2WC I approached zefram (yet again) and ray. To see if Titus and Snails would have a game or two on kodiak. They did. Ren26 casted it. I have a video of the match but not sure if I can post here as I have to clear it with @zefram first. Titus won 2-0. 1 marine 1 alien victory. I got quite a bit of feedback from snails and titus of which again I included it in the map.
But did I stop here. Nope.
A thread is made for me on the ausns2 forums asking for feedback
A thread is on the ENSL forums asking for feedback
Now the map enters internal PTing. I get a tonne of useful feedback which is incorporated.
Pelargir organises for a comp player map test of kodiak. This occurs and some of the things to come out from this. Again 1 marine 1 alien victory.
The map seems balanced enough. We only lost because we failed to do x y or z. Build times / tech times or w/e are on par with the "comp maps"
in additional to the usual feedback of
OMG a lerk can hover behind a tree with alien vision on and pwn
Fact - Yes they can do this but last time I checked, alien vision does NOT let you see through these trees as they a props. So they cant see marines.
- + Marines can technically do the same?
So on this fact the map is unbalanced because both sides can sit behind a tree shooting blindly at each other?
Some of the feedback I got that I am considering is that marines need more cover in falls or C biosphere with some sort of covering over those bridges (like the bridge in mineshaft at ?snakes pass)
So I have actually done a fair bit to try to pursue feedback from comp players.
So.....
Derelict is on the workshop as greybox. The choice if you want to test it is yours. IF you want to give me feedback the option is yours.
@Loki Thanks for the insight of your work/efforts, that clears things up more for me. I'm not ripping on your map or anything, I just want more maps that are acceptable/playable in the comp scene, very simple in theory. I can't tell you why Kodiak isn't one of them, I'm sure others can. Best of luck with Derelict.
@Joshh There's also a fix for Descent where the vents are removed, not sure why that hasn't been played/tested more either.
Personally, I've enjoyed several good games on kodiak thus far. I've won on both sides, lost on both sides...
Can someone tell me what in particular is wrong w/ it? Because to me it seems pretty alright. And I love playing it. Very fun as a marine or an alien IMO.
PelargirJoin Date: 2013-07-02Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
edited May 2014
I don't want to give my opinion again but as Loki said, some of Division 2 & Division 1 players are currently working and testing custom maps. These sessions occur every thursdays on NSL Teamspeak with, generally the mapper himself. That's a "new" beginning for us to test maps again.
I would like to play & make competitive more maps. We tried Kodiak last thursday, the day of build 265 release. Unhappily, we have no replay of this testing, was 1 Marines & 1 Aliens wins. Maybe we have to change some details to make it very competitive for players, that's right, but at the moment, it seems to be balanced enough even if we need more tests on it.
There's no only Kodiak, we're also working on so many other maps: Fracture, Mineral, and perhaps, Derelict later, this is not the priority because players prefer to play on a textured map, almost done, that's right too.
Competitive and NSL players (at least, I don't know for AusNS2 League teams and players to be honest) clearly hate to play other maps than the regular ones. Summit, Veil, Tram are the most interesting maps for them, why? I have no idea, personally, I love Jambi for competition, I like Descent too, Biodome isn't my favorite yes, but all these maps are balanced (more or less) for 6 vs. 6, you can deny that. Public players don't want to play on new maps? Even if they already played on them, even if they know them because they're on the workshop so many months ago, but that's the same issue for competitive players, they don't want or hate to play on new maps, in my opinion, that's stupid, I can't understand that to be honest, more maps mean more fun, more originality, but this is their choice.
Indeed, I would like more maps to be played, that's our goal, make competitively playable other maps made and created by the community itself. Our goal, our objective and with time, that's possible surely. All the custom mappers I already contacted are very motivated to join us, spectate, receive feedbacks from our players to improve their maps, Loki was, Howser was, Master G (ns2_mineral) was too, we keep going to work on these maps.
If more mappers want to help or need competitive feedbacks, they can ask me, we can try to play on your map, I tried to contact every concerned mappers but If I forgot one of you, don't hesitate to add me on Steam (same nickname) or send me a pm, as you want.
B1, if you want to help, just contact me, there's only Wob from iMagine who is working with us. You only need to be there all the thursdays 21 CEST (or almost). We have a private forum on NSL to give feedbacks, talk about that, etc.
I would like the idea to make some custom maps playable for 6 vs. 6. As I already said, even if some people disagree, when a map is balanced enough for competition, that's a public balanced map as well. That doesn't mean vice & versa is the same, of course. Then, make playable maps for competitive and public could be the final goal for us I hope.
By the way, Eclipse isn't balanced for public, this is clearly worse for competitive, you know. Pro-aliens, that's the problem and that's sad, a pretty nice map, and so beautiful. I don't know, what last maptesters did on the map if that's you meant but I would like to make it playable and balanced, maybe one day but really need to work on it then.
it's hypersensitive to early game and punishes team shortcomings brutally, to the point where really only high level players will do the map justice.
It would require fundamental size, layout, and RT placement changes to better accommodate pubs. Essentially, there's no way to do what you suggested and just make minor adjustments for pub afterwards.
This is an example why you should never balance X exclusively around one end of the skill spectrum. (Not saying remotely that Jonacrab did this!)
You should always account for both the highest skill level to assess what is possible - as well as the actual average which will occur practically by 90% of players.
Else, you are either balancing for a niche group of players or creating a low skill ceiling - either one excludes players and both create a poor experience that should be avoided.
@IronHorse
You guys seem to think that Eclipse is a competitively balanced map? Maybe I'm wrong or misreading bits?
I have not seen it PUG'd in a very long time. It is not in the NSL map rotation.
"3. Maps
The following maps are in this seasons mappool:
ns2_nsl_biodome (ModID: A8C04E7) by ObliviousSight
ns2_nsl_descent (ModID: 7d527cc) by Mendasp
ns2_nsl_jambi (ModID: 9d2eabc) by xtcmen
ns2_nsl_summit (ModID: 735cebc) by Mendasp
ns2_nsl_tram (ModID: 7741098) by Mendasp
ns2_nsl_veil (ModID: 78ac3ed) by Mendasp"
~ NSL Season Rules 2014
I would like to see more maps like Eclipse in the rotation.. but..
Personally I can't stand Eclipse. The nostalgia is YES but the performance screams NO. It's like South Tunnels on Tram in almost every room for public games. For someone with a 120hz monitor it's a big buzz kill.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2014
@Locklear
No, I cannot speak as if i know how it plays competitively.
I was just touching on how its development focused on competitive balance, as outlined by the first sentences in Jonacrab's post.
And that such a focus can potentially lead to something that does not translate well to pubs.
Edit : that's not to say for certain that one type of player was focused on, but rather that any design /layout has potential to be biased or downright incompatible for another type of player. Absolute claims like "if it works for high level play, it will occur for the average level play" just don't always work out that way.. It can.. It's possible, but it's definitely not a guarantee given the variance of factors.
To clarify, there weren't unrealistic expectations that Eclipse would be a competitive map, I had some hope that the competitive community would pick it up based on positive feedback from the maptest team, but suffice it to say that only half of the maptesters were vocal at all, and among the ones that were, probably only 50% that said they thought it would be good for comp play. I got better feedback from watching games, more than the vocal feedback TBH. And while I saw good potential in the competitive play, there were also potential issues, mostly being that the initial fights dictated who would win the map. If it favored one team heavily it snowballed in their favor. From the limited testing we got out of it, the vocal maptesters seemed to believe that the issues were more about learning the map, and not necessarily something inherently wrong with the map. Regardless, a complete rework of the map was out of the question, the map was supposed to be a tribute to the NS1 map, as well as a pickup from a community member, Remedy, who spent a good deal of time on the map before it becoming official. He originally was supposed to work together with the UWE mappers to help develop the map, but ended up just completely disappearing out of nowhere. So the development of the map was not without its own issues.
PelargirJoin Date: 2013-07-02Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
There's something I don't understand, to be honest. Every players I know think this is clearly an unbalanced map in favor of Aliens, you're right with that opinion I guess? Competitive players, public players, even Playtesters have the same opinion. For sure, the biggest issue is, in my opinion, the natural Marines RTs, you cannot protect them easily, too far from the Marine Start, too far to be protected, you have to recap them everytime, + there are ventilations around them, and Aliens can bite these RTs easily.
That was a long time I didn't play Eclipse for a match, or a pcw, but asap, there is too many ventilations Aliens can go through, using Shade Upgrade is one of the best strat you can see on this map, and except if Marines players have a better skill level, or Aliens are stupid and play very badly, that's impossible to watch a Marines win on Eclipse.
My question then, is it possible, or do you consider to improve your map / this map in the futur to make it more balanced (public or competition, no matter)? Because, if you need feedbacks, that's pretty easy to give you what you need, and as IronHorse already said: "fundamental size, layout, and RT placement changes" and I don't think this is a waste of time to improve a nostalgic map for NS1 players + an incredible aesthetic.
To clarify, there weren't unrealistic expectations that Eclipse would be a competitive map, I had some hope that the competitive community would pick it up based on positive feedback from the maptest team, but suffice it to say that only half of the maptesters were vocal at all, and among the ones that were, probably only 50% that said they thought it would be good for comp play. I got better feedback from watching games, more than the vocal feedback TBH. And while I saw good potential in the competitive play, there were also potential issues, mostly being that the initial fights dictated who would win the map. If it favored one team heavily it snowballed in their favor. From the limited testing we got out of it, the vocal maptesters seemed to believe that the issues were more about learning the map, and not necessarily something inherently wrong with the map. Regardless, a complete rework of the map was out of the question, the map was supposed to be a tribute to the NS1 map, as well as a pickup from a community member, Remedy, who spent a good deal of time on the map before it becoming official. He originally was supposed to work together with the UWE mappers to help develop the map, but ended up just completely disappearing out of nowhere. So the development of the map was not without its own issues.
Eclipse is too noisy and cluttered, which also affects performance. It's really just that simple. Complexity from simplicity. Among the more significant issues, gen mon is still a clusterfuck and core access is still a deathtrap, which either says the feedback you got was not very good, or it hasn't all been listened to.
There is absolutely 'rhyme and reason' as to why eclipse isn't in the competitive map pool. I don't think you should be pinning this on the comp community as stubborn and backwards.
I hate to repeat things, but you and everyone else should already know by now pursuing balance is not the same as pursuing fun.
Kodiak will never make competitive because it somehow manages to be even more messy than jambi. without any of the flow (no mean feat), and more visually obscuring than mineshaft. Not saying kodiak or eclipse arn't fun for people in general to play, but competitively they're far from.
PelargirJoin Date: 2013-07-02Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
@elodea You have a strange point of view, you know, most of things you wrote is right, but I disagree on the competitive aspect. Everyone knows there's some maps unplayable for competitive, just take a look on Mineshaft for example. But that doesn't mean all these maps (Eclipse, Kodiak, etc) can't be improved to make them balanced for 6 vs. 6, that's completely wrong. I already said Kodiak is more or less balanced at the moment, it needs some changes, of course, but this map clearly isn't pro-aliens or pro-marines, and that's the goal. Indeed, Eclipse is unbalanced, no way. If dedicated mappers want to improve their map, everything can be done, even make existing maps balanced.
If your opinion is to keep playing on regular maps, I can understand that, but an important part of competitive players would like to fight on new & original maps, they just want balanced maps, that's all. And personally, as a competitive player myself, that's just boring to play on the same maps, everytime, with sometimes, the same layout, that could be cool to discover and get some new maps like Jambi, this one is, in my opinion, the best example of a community map made and played in competition.
@elodea You have a strange point of view, you know, most of things you wrote is right, but I disagree on the competitive aspect. Everyone knows there's some maps unplayable for competitive, just take a look on Mineshaft for example. But that doesn't mean all these maps (Eclipse, Kodiak, etc) can't be improved to make them balanced for 6 vs. 6, that's completely wrong. I already said Kodiak is more or less balanced at the moment, it needs some changes, of course, but this map clearly isn't pro-aliens or pro-marines, and that's the goal. Indeed, Eclipse is unbalanced, no way. If dedicated mappers want to improve their map, everything can be done, even make existing maps balanced.
If your opinion is to keep playing on regular maps, I can understand that, but an important part of competitive players would like to fight on new & original maps, they just want balanced maps, that's all. And personally, as a competitive player myself, that's just boring to play on the same maps, everytime, with sometimes, the same layout, that could be cool to discover and get some new maps like Jambi, this one is, in my opinion, the best example of a community map made and played in competition.
I hate to repeat things, but you and everyone else should already know by now pursuing balance is not the same as pursuing fun.
*If uwe was serious about competitive maps, they would have adopted caged a while ago.
There are 2 major problems for making new balanced maps.
1) Not enough time spent playing them to learn the map properly and give feedback.
2) Not enough clever people to give proper, valid feedback which doesn't end up summit-esque.
Far too many people play this game on past experience rather than learned skills. People play summit/tram/veil because they've played them before and are comfortable with them. People are scared to play new maps because they simply can't transition skills like positioning and ambushing, they can only use moves and positions they've learnt from experience. Obviously this is a paradox and stupid; but it's a high barrier for a map to enter a regular, popular cycle.
This leads me on to map balance requiring intelligent feedback. It's easy to say this room is OP for marines (hanger bay, Observation) and this room is OP for aliens (middle map for lerks), but things like exploitative routes, RT distance timing, stronger/weaker expansion routes, area of denial, all seem to escape the thoughts of the average player. And that's just thinking about the problems and not even coming up with solutions. Now couple all these thought processes required to make a decent map with the lack of ability to apply skills used and only be able to use past experiences to play and what do you get? Bad experiences having an extremely high weighting on the decision of if the map is good or bad.
You play the map 5 times and ARC rush the south hive (I forgot the name) and it wins 3/5 times. WTF ARC STRAT OP! 60% wins because no one knows how to deal with that strategy because they use experience (which they have non of in that map). Can't think of a solution because they can't apply skills, ARC strat becomes domatised, GG bad map, leave it to collect dust. (Probably a better example is PG rush because that happens in public a lot and if the PG rush doesn't work in the first 3/5 rounds then GG, bad map, strat doesn't work!)
I've yet to have someone actually explain why they think kodiak is NOT a good map for 6v6 play. I've heard "It just doesn't work" so many times without any explanation.
Fast ARC play can be countered like it can be on tram, (RTs and expansion then ready to crush)
Fast PG play can be countered by ambushing in the luscious mid map or all the rooms inside which have plenty access from vents/entrances.
Fast upgrades is essentially a case of winning engagements or trading the right RTs at the right time, or even looking for base rush opportunities. (Which isnt even OP because it's not as if there are more routes than a summit base rush).
Likewise for marines, they just have to win engagements and with proper positioning + skill, they can pick skulks off. A lot of the indoor rooms are relatively marine friendly and yet some corridors connecting them are alien friendly, so medpacks + positioning should be balanced enough.
My only gripe is the power of regen lerks in the center of the map but I think a simple addition of "cages" around bridges and the stairs between upper rapids and northern biosphere could provide adequate cover while not being OP.
Perhaps there could be some reduction in foliage for the sake of FPS, but I'm sure mendasp could wave his magic wand if it's proven to be viable for competitive play.
Onto eclipse.
I was part of the map testing team who worked on eclipse and at one stage we were told that the map couldn't have too drastic changes to ensure that it kept some of the ns1 nostalgia for vets. With that restriction in place, there wasn't much we could do. The map just doesn't suit ns2 play. The timing of the map creation with ns2wc and the deadline limited the number of chances we could play. I don't think it was really the mapper's or testing team's fault. I think it was more of a "Here have a christmas present" kind of deal.
(A little about biodome to pre-empt any complaints)
The map ended up pretty balanced and fun with it's hitches here and there that weren't too big of a deal, but then we were hit with a massive game balance changing patch that saw the introduction of 8tres drifters and some other stuff (i think some fade nerfs). Inevitably this completely screwed most feedback given which shaped the map. It was such a shame because we spent a long time and put a lot of thought into that map, and now it's just marine biased =[
Far too many people play this game on past experience rather than learned skills. People play summit/tram/veil because they've played them before and are comfortable with them. People are scared to play new maps because they simply can't transition skills like positioning and ambushing, they can only use moves and positions they've learnt from experience. Obviously this is a paradox and stupid; but it's a high barrier for a map to enter a regular, popular cycle.
This running sentiment mentioned throughout the thread by different posters is just so wrong. If UWE wants to really construct a competitively accepted map, they need to look past the mindset of a comp community that is stubborn. For example, tram used to be universally hated and played like absolute crap - over time it was opened up and iterated into a really great playing map.
It isn't that people arn't willing to learn how to play new maps , it's that the map has been designed to actively restrict the 'moves and positions' available to begin with. Take eclipse for example. It doesn't have a good feeling, doesn't encourage creativity, and so no-one really bothers playing maps they don't find fun.
There is a golden balance between player vs player (faciliating generic pvp flow) and player vs map (what the map uniquely brings) interaction, and some maps like eclipse have lots of the latter at the expense of the former. Although surprisingly, docking is not a comp map because it has too much of the former, and too little of the latter. The courtyard centered play and short distances due to marine spawn are a huge problem.
@elodea You have a strange point of view, you know, most of things you wrote is right, but I disagree on the competitive aspect. Everyone knows there's some maps unplayable for competitive, just take a look on Mineshaft for example. But that doesn't mean all these maps (Eclipse, Kodiak, etc) can't be improved to make them balanced for 6 vs. 6, that's completely wrong. I already said Kodiak is more or less balanced at the moment, it needs some changes, of course, but this map clearly isn't pro-aliens or pro-marines, and that's the goal. Indeed, Eclipse is unbalanced, no way. If dedicated mappers want to improve their map, everything can be done, even make existing maps balanced.
If your opinion is to keep playing on regular maps, I can understand that, but an important part of competitive players would like to fight on new & original maps, they just want balanced maps, that's all. And personally, as a competitive player myself, that's just boring to play on the same maps, everytime, with sometimes, the same layout, that could be cool to discover and get some new maps like Jambi, this one is, in my opinion, the best example of a community map made and played in competition.
I hate to repeat things, but you and everyone else should already know by now pursuing balance is not the same as pursuing fun.
*If uwe was serious about competitive maps, they would have adopted caged a while ago.
UWE is a company; they have to earn money and cater for as much of their playerbase as possible. In regard of maps, this does not only cover the gameplay but also the looks. And, frankly, ns2_caged is not (yet) one of the most beautiful maps out there (sorry Flat).
You can't just give your average customer - a pubber - a seemingly half-finished map and call it "official". From a business point of view, this would be a horrible decision (upset players, leaving, etc etc).
Please don't assume it's all about you and your style of play. Please don't throw around sentences like "If uwe was serious about competitive maps", because they are not only full of negativity, but because this is a strawman argumentation that helps nothing to the cause.
And seriously, nothing stops you from playing caged. I don't know if it's in the competitive rotation, i don't play competitive. Just go to the workshop, download it an play it if you want it so much. There is no need for it to be official. UWE can probably not handle it (as in: ensure quality, testing etc.), anyway.
They gave you the tools, so take them. Do it by yourself. Or be happy that there's community mappers building maps for you.
Comments
It is being worked on.
Anyway, if we have some informations about this map, it will appear on this topic.
Besides that, many of them don't translate well to pub games either (eclipse) ..
So here's hoping whatever is next pertains to the 90% of the player base *first*.. Then accommodates comp play afterwards, because let's be honest, they'll modify it to suit their needs anyways like they always do.
Descent and Biodome aren't prefered in that cycle by comp players for various reasons.
Maybe if more competitive players were willing to maptest on a regular basis (despite how badly the map may play out in development) it would help create a more competitive friendly map?
With Kodiak for example the amount of times I heard @Loki saying he needed more competitive teams to playtest the map its no wonder in its finished state its unlikely to ever be played in comp.
If you guys want another map which fits the requirements to be played at a comp level dont just sit back and ask the mappers (who in most cases are not comp players) to magic a balanced comp map out and actually offer to get involved. Just contact whoever is working on the map, organise some games every few weeks and have them spectate and give them constant feedback, the earlier the better as making sweeping balance changes is a lot easier work when its all in greybox. In my experience with any of the SCC guys at least they love feedback, doesnt matter if you say its a complete pile of ****, as long as you help them work towards a more balanced map they will listen and put in as many hours as is necessary to get it sorted.
Custom maps are being tested every sunday evening at 8 pm (GMT 0). It's hardly extensive.
My personal opinion on the subject, as I was involved in developing multiple maps for UWE, is that there is no formula for making a map competitive, and as to why they wont play some maps and will others, there seems no rhyme or reason. I personally think tram is a horrible competitive map. The status of the random spawns has been widdled down to 1 possible configuration over its lifetime due to spawns being imbalanced, and yet its still played. Regardless, I don't believe there is any amount of testing that will "make" a map competitive, they will decide for themselves when the map is finished, and there may or may not be any logic to it. Look at the CS competitive scene, in 10 years, and 3 games, its still virtually the same map rotation.
this is kind of how i believed it to be true, im currently developing a map but rather than greybox and test i decided to fully build the map piece by piece and use my own knowledge of what makes a fun map. at least to me in order to build it and balance the rooms as best i can. I think that the props and vents etc play such a large roll in balancing the rooms that it would be counter productive to greybox it out first when so much would have to change just to get the right asthetic.
Im just building for fun and trying to keep it interesting and hopefully people will play it and appreciate the time i put in. im hoping to appeal to public gamers first and foremost
and while there is plenty of comp players out there willing to test out new maps I don't think we'll ever see a new one reach critical mass and get played as much as the golden oldies, regardless of how good it is... but i would love to be proven wrong.
Descent is widely disliked because of the horizontal spawn vent system. I never have had any major problems with Biodome... aside from the fact it's hard to take down marine naturals.
Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing how this map develops.
Agree with the tram sentiments too, frankly.
I did push the map to the comp scene to get feedback but 90% of the time people were not interested. Maybe because the map was still 40% greybox? I dunno........
I pushed for the custom map cup to happen (zefram can attest to this how much I pestered him for it) but kodiak hardly got played and only 2 people gave any feedback to which I incorporated that feedback. I asked for kodiak to be included in the AUS custom map cup. It got dropped because of 1 game. Where they pretty much pointed out a few main issues they did not like (after I harrassed them as to why it was not played). That feedback was incorporated. Post NS2WC I approached zefram (yet again) and ray. To see if Titus and Snails would have a game or two on kodiak. They did. Ren26 casted it. I have a video of the match but not sure if I can post here as I have to clear it with @zefram first. Titus won 2-0. 1 marine 1 alien victory. I got quite a bit of feedback from snails and titus of which again I included it in the map.
But did I stop here. Nope.
A thread is made for me on the ausns2 forums asking for feedback
A thread is on the ENSL forums asking for feedback
Now the map enters internal PTing. I get a tonne of useful feedback which is incorporated.
Pelargir organises for a comp player map test of kodiak. This occurs and some of the things to come out from this. Again 1 marine 1 alien victory.
The map seems balanced enough. We only lost because we failed to do x y or z. Build times / tech times or w/e are on par with the "comp maps"
in additional to the usual feedback of
OMG a lerk can hover behind a tree with alien vision on and pwn
Fact - Yes they can do this but last time I checked, alien vision does NOT let you see through these trees as they a props. So they cant see marines.
- + Marines can technically do the same?
So on this fact the map is unbalanced because both sides can sit behind a tree shooting blindly at each other?
Some of the feedback I got that I am considering is that marines need more cover in falls or C biosphere with some sort of covering over those bridges (like the bridge in mineshaft at ?snakes pass)
So I have actually done a fair bit to try to pursue feedback from comp players.
So.....
Derelict is on the workshop as greybox. The choice if you want to test it is yours. IF you want to give me feedback the option is yours.
@Joshh There's also a fix for Descent where the vents are removed, not sure why that hasn't been played/tested more either.
Can someone tell me what in particular is wrong w/ it? Because to me it seems pretty alright. And I love playing it. Very fun as a marine or an alien IMO.
I would like to play & make competitive more maps. We tried Kodiak last thursday, the day of build 265 release. Unhappily, we have no replay of this testing, was 1 Marines & 1 Aliens wins. Maybe we have to change some details to make it very competitive for players, that's right, but at the moment, it seems to be balanced enough even if we need more tests on it.
There's no only Kodiak, we're also working on so many other maps: Fracture, Mineral, and perhaps, Derelict later, this is not the priority because players prefer to play on a textured map, almost done, that's right too.
Competitive and NSL players (at least, I don't know for AusNS2 League teams and players to be honest) clearly hate to play other maps than the regular ones. Summit, Veil, Tram are the most interesting maps for them, why? I have no idea, personally, I love Jambi for competition, I like Descent too, Biodome isn't my favorite yes, but all these maps are balanced (more or less) for 6 vs. 6, you can deny that. Public players don't want to play on new maps? Even if they already played on them, even if they know them because they're on the workshop so many months ago, but that's the same issue for competitive players, they don't want or hate to play on new maps, in my opinion, that's stupid, I can't understand that to be honest, more maps mean more fun, more originality, but this is their choice.
Indeed, I would like more maps to be played, that's our goal, make competitively playable other maps made and created by the community itself. Our goal, our objective and with time, that's possible surely. All the custom mappers I already contacted are very motivated to join us, spectate, receive feedbacks from our players to improve their maps, Loki was, Howser was, Master G (ns2_mineral) was too, we keep going to work on these maps.
If more mappers want to help or need competitive feedbacks, they can ask me, we can try to play on your map, I tried to contact every concerned mappers but If I forgot one of you, don't hesitate to add me on Steam (same nickname) or send me a pm, as you want.
B1, if you want to help, just contact me, there's only Wob from iMagine who is working with us. You only need to be there all the thursdays 21 CEST (or almost). We have a private forum on NSL to give feedbacks, talk about that, etc.
I would like the idea to make some custom maps playable for 6 vs. 6. As I already said, even if some people disagree, when a map is balanced enough for competition, that's a public balanced map as well. That doesn't mean vice & versa is the same, of course. Then, make playable maps for competitive and public could be the final goal for us I hope.
By the way, Eclipse isn't balanced for public, this is clearly worse for competitive, you know. Pro-aliens, that's the problem and that's sad, a pretty nice map, and so beautiful. I don't know, what last maptesters did on the map if that's you meant but I would like to make it playable and balanced, maybe one day but really need to work on it then.
I really do dislike this shortsighted train of thought, (no offense) and it is unfortunately repeated in this community often.
As you pointed out Because: It would require fundamental size, layout, and RT placement changes to better accommodate pubs. Essentially, there's no way to do what you suggested and just make minor adjustments for pub afterwards.
This is an example why you should never balance X exclusively around one end of the skill spectrum. (Not saying remotely that Jonacrab did this!)
You should always account for both the highest skill level to assess what is possible - as well as the actual average which will occur practically by 90% of players.
Else, you are either balancing for a niche group of players or creating a low skill ceiling - either one excludes players and both create a poor experience that should be avoided.
You guys seem to think that Eclipse is a competitively balanced map? Maybe I'm wrong or misreading bits?
I have not seen it PUG'd in a very long time. It is not in the NSL map rotation.
"3. Maps
The following maps are in this seasons mappool:
ns2_nsl_biodome (ModID: A8C04E7) by ObliviousSight
ns2_nsl_descent (ModID: 7d527cc) by Mendasp
ns2_nsl_jambi (ModID: 9d2eabc) by xtcmen
ns2_nsl_summit (ModID: 735cebc) by Mendasp
ns2_nsl_tram (ModID: 7741098) by Mendasp
ns2_nsl_veil (ModID: 78ac3ed) by Mendasp"
~ NSL Season Rules 2014
I would like to see more maps like Eclipse in the rotation.. but..
Personally I can't stand Eclipse. The nostalgia is YES but the performance screams NO. It's like South Tunnels on Tram in almost every room for public games. For someone with a 120hz monitor it's a big buzz kill.
No, I cannot speak as if i know how it plays competitively.
I was just touching on how its development focused on competitive balance, as outlined by the first sentences in Jonacrab's post.
And that such a focus can potentially lead to something that does not translate well to pubs.
Edit : that's not to say for certain that one type of player was focused on, but rather that any design /layout has potential to be biased or downright incompatible for another type of player. Absolute claims like "if it works for high level play, it will occur for the average level play" just don't always work out that way.. It can.. It's possible, but it's definitely not a guarantee given the variance of factors.
That was a long time I didn't play Eclipse for a match, or a pcw, but asap, there is too many ventilations Aliens can go through, using Shade Upgrade is one of the best strat you can see on this map, and except if Marines players have a better skill level, or Aliens are stupid and play very badly, that's impossible to watch a Marines win on Eclipse.
My question then, is it possible, or do you consider to improve your map / this map in the futur to make it more balanced (public or competition, no matter)? Because, if you need feedbacks, that's pretty easy to give you what you need, and as IronHorse already said: "fundamental size, layout, and RT placement changes" and I don't think this is a waste of time to improve a nostalgic map for NS1 players + an incredible aesthetic.
There is absolutely 'rhyme and reason' as to why eclipse isn't in the competitive map pool. I don't think you should be pinning this on the comp community as stubborn and backwards.
I hate to repeat things, but you and everyone else should already know by now pursuing balance is not the same as pursuing fun.
Kodiak will never make competitive because it somehow manages to be even more messy than jambi. without any of the flow (no mean feat), and more visually obscuring than mineshaft. Not saying kodiak or eclipse arn't fun for people in general to play, but competitively they're far from.
If your opinion is to keep playing on regular maps, I can understand that, but an important part of competitive players would like to fight on new & original maps, they just want balanced maps, that's all. And personally, as a competitive player myself, that's just boring to play on the same maps, everytime, with sometimes, the same layout, that could be cool to discover and get some new maps like Jambi, this one is, in my opinion, the best example of a community map made and played in competition.
*If uwe was serious about competitive maps, they would have adopted caged a while ago.
1) Not enough time spent playing them to learn the map properly and give feedback.
2) Not enough clever people to give proper, valid feedback which doesn't end up summit-esque.
Far too many people play this game on past experience rather than learned skills. People play summit/tram/veil because they've played them before and are comfortable with them. People are scared to play new maps because they simply can't transition skills like positioning and ambushing, they can only use moves and positions they've learnt from experience. Obviously this is a paradox and stupid; but it's a high barrier for a map to enter a regular, popular cycle.
This leads me on to map balance requiring intelligent feedback. It's easy to say this room is OP for marines (hanger bay, Observation) and this room is OP for aliens (middle map for lerks), but things like exploitative routes, RT distance timing, stronger/weaker expansion routes, area of denial, all seem to escape the thoughts of the average player. And that's just thinking about the problems and not even coming up with solutions. Now couple all these thought processes required to make a decent map with the lack of ability to apply skills used and only be able to use past experiences to play and what do you get? Bad experiences having an extremely high weighting on the decision of if the map is good or bad.
You play the map 5 times and ARC rush the south hive (I forgot the name) and it wins 3/5 times. WTF ARC STRAT OP! 60% wins because no one knows how to deal with that strategy because they use experience (which they have non of in that map). Can't think of a solution because they can't apply skills, ARC strat becomes domatised, GG bad map, leave it to collect dust. (Probably a better example is PG rush because that happens in public a lot and if the PG rush doesn't work in the first 3/5 rounds then GG, bad map, strat doesn't work!)
I've yet to have someone actually explain why they think kodiak is NOT a good map for 6v6 play. I've heard "It just doesn't work" so many times without any explanation.
Fast ARC play can be countered like it can be on tram, (RTs and expansion then ready to crush)
Fast PG play can be countered by ambushing in the luscious mid map or all the rooms inside which have plenty access from vents/entrances.
Fast upgrades is essentially a case of winning engagements or trading the right RTs at the right time, or even looking for base rush opportunities. (Which isnt even OP because it's not as if there are more routes than a summit base rush).
Likewise for marines, they just have to win engagements and with proper positioning + skill, they can pick skulks off. A lot of the indoor rooms are relatively marine friendly and yet some corridors connecting them are alien friendly, so medpacks + positioning should be balanced enough.
My only gripe is the power of regen lerks in the center of the map but I think a simple addition of "cages" around bridges and the stairs between upper rapids and northern biosphere could provide adequate cover while not being OP.
Perhaps there could be some reduction in foliage for the sake of FPS, but I'm sure mendasp could wave his magic wand if it's proven to be viable for competitive play.
Onto eclipse.
I was part of the map testing team who worked on eclipse and at one stage we were told that the map couldn't have too drastic changes to ensure that it kept some of the ns1 nostalgia for vets. With that restriction in place, there wasn't much we could do. The map just doesn't suit ns2 play. The timing of the map creation with ns2wc and the deadline limited the number of chances we could play. I don't think it was really the mapper's or testing team's fault. I think it was more of a "Here have a christmas present" kind of deal.
(A little about biodome to pre-empt any complaints)
The map ended up pretty balanced and fun with it's hitches here and there that weren't too big of a deal, but then we were hit with a massive game balance changing patch that saw the introduction of 8tres drifters and some other stuff (i think some fade nerfs). Inevitably this completely screwed most feedback given which shaped the map. It was such a shame because we spent a long time and put a lot of thought into that map, and now it's just marine biased =[
It isn't that people arn't willing to learn how to play new maps , it's that the map has been designed to actively restrict the 'moves and positions' available to begin with. Take eclipse for example. It doesn't have a good feeling, doesn't encourage creativity, and so no-one really bothers playing maps they don't find fun.
There is a golden balance between player vs player (faciliating generic pvp flow) and player vs map (what the map uniquely brings) interaction, and some maps like eclipse have lots of the latter at the expense of the former. Although surprisingly, docking is not a comp map because it has too much of the former, and too little of the latter. The courtyard centered play and short distances due to marine spawn are a huge problem.
UWE is a company; they have to earn money and cater for as much of their playerbase as possible. In regard of maps, this does not only cover the gameplay but also the looks. And, frankly, ns2_caged is not (yet) one of the most beautiful maps out there (sorry Flat).
You can't just give your average customer - a pubber - a seemingly half-finished map and call it "official". From a business point of view, this would be a horrible decision (upset players, leaving, etc etc).
Please don't assume it's all about you and your style of play. Please don't throw around sentences like "If uwe was serious about competitive maps", because they are not only full of negativity, but because this is a strawman argumentation that helps nothing to the cause.
And seriously, nothing stops you from playing caged. I don't know if it's in the competitive rotation, i don't play competitive. Just go to the workshop, download it an play it if you want it so much. There is no need for it to be official. UWE can probably not handle it (as in: ensure quality, testing etc.), anyway.
They gave you the tools, so take them. Do it by yourself. Or be happy that there's community mappers building maps for you.