The game is too balanced
Vetinari
Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
We haven't had a balance thread in a while, sooo...
No, but seriously. It seems like every second game that's not a stack ends as a 35+ min stalemate nowadays. And I'm not even talking about turtles here; but proper stalemates, where neither side can gain an upper hand.
Are we lacking a deus ex machina (or deus ex bacteria, for aliens)?
What's your opinion on this?
No, but seriously. It seems like every second game that's not a stack ends as a 35+ min stalemate nowadays. And I'm not even talking about turtles here; but proper stalemates, where neither side can gain an upper hand.
Are we lacking a deus ex machina (or deus ex bacteria, for aliens)?
What's your opinion on this?
Comments
I like the long games! I don't like it when the match is over in 60 seconds because of a skulk rush.
Regarding teams that are well balanced, these are very rare imo but certainly a lot more fun than average games, some of my most memorable moments in NS2 have been commanding games that exceeded 2hours long. Marines generally don't have a real power ability that can close a game out like aliens do with xenocide on typical pub servers and if the teams are balanced, marines usually have a lockdown or strategy to prevent xeno from appearing. SC2 has economy advantage, you can willingly trade cost inefficiently because every unit you kill costs resources so eventually you whittle them down but in NS2, even a wave of basic skulks and rifle marines can force back a high teched team, rarely happens but it can happen.
However, competitive games don't last too long usually. We see games typically over by the 30 minute mark and it's usually a team hoping for a big play to claw their way back in, its like watching a player who's ahead in SC2 get more ahead until the opponent is starved out or an opponent that fights to their last breath.
Overall, very pleased with the current balance of NS2 it's still kinda balanced at crazy server counts like Wooza's 42 man, aliens and marines have a close winrate even when the server is performing fine. While I would like some additional content, new weapons, etc, I can definitely see why people don't want that and I'm still enjoying the game immensely.
I'd rather have a game that is too balanced than imbalanced so I don't think there's a reason to look into it.
Marines aren't the ones who usually have trouble finishing a game though. Aliens can't really turtle well.
In the mid game before (jets) they tend to have a problem but it isn't usually against one hive though, if marines focus their attention on one hive and ignore the other we tend to see base trades which is why stalemates occur. This is further escalated when its difficult to push a hive with ARCs that don't have avenues where gorges can hit them easily. Docking is a map that comes to mind where stalemates occur, difficult hives to ARC and use jetpacks in, minus generator.
Aliens don't turtle on 2base, they're always rushing where marines are not. Just an example, I commanded a 2h 30min game on summit as alien comm and we traded bases at least 10 times with marines.
Yeah, but I'm talking about those games where you have been sitting on max tech for 20 minutes now and there's no real back and forth, not even base trades, and everyone is just craving to get a new, fresh game starting. I've had a few of those the last days.
Base trades are easy to force, just beacon your team, load up gls and jps, and go to town.
Now...once that improved skill system gets put in place we can have balanced teams more often!
i always found the mention of the 50/50 win rates incredibly stupid. guess what happens after one side wins a match? they switch to the other team the next round, lol. you see it all the time in pub games, especially when people are stacking teams.
I guess that had nothing to do with the fact that they were playing with virtually zero lag, thus giving marines a huge advantage with tracking?
Maybe check your hive stats because I never see stalemate pub games and my average game length over the last 20 matches is 15mins.
I think the game itself has hit a decent point as far as balance goes. It would be nice to see stats like win rates in Hive, rather than individual player "skill". NS2Stats' sample seems to think it's alien sided atm.
I think this is a good thing. Players just need to be better at ending the game. I'm of the opinion that any turtle can be broken with a couple of gorges and a well coordinated push, or else ARCs.
Pub games exclusively
Just to clarify, I'm not actually complaining about balance. We seem to have reached a state of balance which drags even games out forever - and it's those stalemates I'm, well, complaining about. (Not really complaining. It's more like an observation, but the point still stands.)
"TOO balanced"??
At face value, I'd say that's ridiculous as balance is a marines-alien see-saw and giving one team an advantage would obviously crap all over the face of what this game stands for.
However reading into it, I could assume you mean "time-dependant tech advantages (of which there are several throughout the game, like mines, lifeforms, W/A ups, babblers) are not strong enough to have a significant impact on the overall flow of the game"
OR even
"some tech isnt strong enough to end the game when one team has a significant advantage"
For the first assumed argument, I disagree and would like to point out that players still need to organise and push well-defined objectives ( X rt, X upgrade structure, marines' AA etc) in order for the tech to mean anything.
For the second point I would like to point out that alien contamination + crags + whips is a really nasty game ender, and also for marines, well... Exos should be strong and unbeaconable again ^_^
Exosuits are currently designed in such a way that it is a glass cannon role that tanks damage and can die very quickly to just 2 skulks even with marine support and full upgrades...which is just absurd. Old exosuits were countered with forcing beacons and leaving the exosuits vulnerable.
What? :P
Exos are fine for their job, which is a) guarding light marines from the back lines or b) defend a long corridor or base from the top of the CC. It is *not* a tank or a front line unit, JPs are ( both are achieved from mobility). But all pubs player just blazingly rush their exos in the front lines
And they are finely priced for these jobs btw. 40 pres is close to the 38 res of jp/sg/welder. Too bad having an exo means immobilizing another marine for weld, and MACs are utterly useless in combat (blocking line of sight, and too vulnerable to bilebombs).
Main problem for marine late game is imo JPs. I became aware of this when playing balance mod ( Cf this link ) Boosting jp acceleration, removing double jump and limiting fuel is brilliant!
The main difference between Exos and regular marine play is the style of combat. With standard play you're expected to (have to) kite the damage and deal as much damage as possible to either scare off or kill the alien attacking you. But the key is mobility, if you stand still you're dead. Whereas with Exos you're expected to stand there and tank damage while trying to shoot this miniscule thing biting your ankles.
Problem is, exos don't have the amount of health needed to effectively tank highly mobile ankle biters any more. Throw in a gorge or a decent fade and you're toast.
Jets provide extra mobility, allowing you to kite longer and thus deal more damage. Which in this game is the way to play. Add in the fact that the comm can't support you in an exo in the same way as with a jetpack and the differences are just too much to warrant buying Exos.
IMO Exos need to either have mobility or armor, not neither.
Pretty sure this was explained ages ago. It's not good data to base general game balance on. Prior to the WC LAN, premier scrim alien/marine win rates were a lot closer to 50/50.
As for general pub play, there are still problems... but overall the game balance feels good. As of now, performance would increase pubbing enjoyment over anything else. Even with servers running NS2+, you still get framedropping cuz all the random sht going on.
I am NOT complaining about epic two hour games with lots of back and forth and drama and tension and stuff. I like those game just like anyone. I'm talking about those static ~40min games, whose second half entirely consists of "You have these TP, we have those; now let's gently push the RT in between to drag this out as long as possible".
And I don't really now what a solution could be. The thing about deteriorating resources sounds interesting, but is probably not viable. Let's discuss if there is something that can be done about it.
"Too balanced" was just a fun way of formulating it. Balance is great at the moment.
How about:
If all tech points have been occupied for 20 minutes AND neither base was destroyed during that time AND each team has more than one base, game freezes for every field player, both commander log out and go to secret negotiation room that only opens at this stage. Then commanders proceed to discuss peace treaty, you know, who's keeping what room, like, borders, who's going to clean up the mess, etc. Once agreement is reached, game unfreezes and everybody shakes hands. Friendship.
They certainly slow down alien pushes when they have the advantage. Maybe reducing the damage vs players would aid with aliens not be able to finish off marines. They'd still be just as effective for marine pushes against alien hive rooms, but not against individual players, so teams will need some shotties as well as GL's, thus reducing the total number on the field and keeping the balance and teamwork aspect of NS2.
Or maybe not, discuss.. :P
Has this been tried anyway?
What most people would assume an exosuit to be nowadays (a support role) doesn't work in practice because it is the first to be targeted in almost every scenario and the glass cannon analogy is quite comparable therefore it is unable to fill its role cost-efficiently even in the hands of an amazing player. Simply tagging an exosuit as a support role is farcical at best because it does not fit this role well.
Go to any decent skilled server (doesn't need to be competitive) and honestly tell me how many games beyond the 15 minute mark have exosuits. For 40res, almost the same as a jetpack+weapon, it is unable to compete with the flexibility and power of a pure JPer and in fact, you're more of a liability in some cases whereas a jetpacker is never really a liability.
That's not to say exosuits are completely useless but they function better as base defense rather than base assault. All it takes is 2-3 lifeforms, could simply be good skulks and there's a good chance that exosuit is going down even with marine support. I think single arm rails fill their use but again, miss once and you're probably dead.
I just find it frustrating that exosuits, aesthetically speaking are the coolest and one of the most badass roles in this game. Firing up those dual cylinders can make anyone feel like an ultimate badass but in their current state, we rarely see them and we rarely see them do serious work and that is a big shame.
TL;DR - For such a heavy res sink, too many downsides, not enough flexibility. My firm opinion is that exosuits need a buff regarding survivability, whether its mobility or more health.