After reading about heavy armour I kinda feel like if the newer exos could weld, the'd basically be equivalent to HA/HMG marines.
And I'd actually be cool with that.
I dont think the thrusters should work in multiple directions for exos; aliens are about skill-based movement, marines are about positioning. Giving exos the ability to strafe around like mentalists will make them enfuriating to play against.
I would much rather see exos take that role than introducing a HMG like comp mod does. the hmg basically replaces the exo and is a no brainer upgrade from the lmg. there is no specialization or anything.
But the problem with exos and welders, they consist only of armor, which means two exos have infinite health and armor. A marine is made of health and armor, and only the armor part can be welded. So something else then adding a welder would have to be found to make them viable. that said, a marine can have a welder inside an exo and just jump out to weld himself and others.
But the problem with exos and welders, they consist only of armor, which means two exos have infinite health and armor. A marine is made of health and armor, and only the armor part can be welded. So something else then adding a welder would have to be found to make them viable. that said, a marine can have a welder inside an exo and just jump out to weld himself and others.
Going by that logic, two marines with a welder and a decent medpacking commander have infinite health, too.
But the problem with exos and welders, they consist only of armor, which means two exos have infinite health and armor. A marine is made of health and armor, and only the armor part can be welded. So something else then adding a welder would have to be found to make them viable. that said, a marine can have a welder inside an exo and just jump out to weld himself and others.
Going by that logic, two marines with a welder and a decent medpacking commander have infinite health, too.
Absolutely, but that requires resources (medpacks) and commander attention. so its really not the same thing
The simple answer to the "Exos would be to OP with a welder" is to diable their weapons when welding (just like light marines). Make some kind of draw animation and poof, now 2 one arm Exos cant just stand their facing eac hother in a room shooting in circles while welding each other.
Besides, welding isn't exactly fast, and as far as I know, 1 skulk can out DPS a welder, not to mention Bile Bomb. I think many people are severely overestimating how much survivability welders would give exos.
Also, while ejecting is cool, I don't think of it as a viable solution. "Just get out and weld your own exo! It doesnt matter that your're probly going to have walk all the way back to base to be safe with that!"
The idea of a weldered exo doesn't sound too bad. It would also allow exos to build things. Bear in mind that it is a tradeoff versus extra firepower.
It might also be interesting to have exos regenerate armor (at a moderate rate) if the pilot is in possesion of a welder, only while not in combat (perhaps while not moving as well?).
I also think modular exos are the way to go. I tried the modular exo mod a while back and found it not particularly intuitive. But the basics of "buy each part of the exo" are good IMO. I think options beyond what the arms are should be avoided for simplicity's sake.
Marines are all about positioning but every class in the game is built on being able to move in combat, except for the Exo suit. Even as a gorge, you run as fast as you can and jump/slide to escape combat. But as an exo you're expected to sit there and Tank damage while trying to get the stuff off your ankles.
I think this isn't a bad thing. But if the Exosuit is supposed to be an immobile(ish) damage dealer, it needs a lot more tanky of an armor value. It could be interesting to make exosuits unable to move at all while shooting (perhaps only Dualies), but instead give them more armor.
Elseways, They need to be more mobile. No more slowing to a near standstill while shooting is a good start. Thrusters would be interesting, but need some balance work (short distance, cooldown). And ideally a little more armor than they have now.
Handy Dandy Summary:
Two directions for Exos to go: Massive, tanky, high dps, more-or-less immobile-while-deployed/shooting, high armor death machines
or Big semi-tanky, decent dps, slightly mobile-in-combat, with heavier armor killing machines.
Personally I'm a fan of the latter as I think it'd be more fun to play with.
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
Remember, currently in the compmod exo's can't actually build anything, they can only weld. (I'm not sure if this is just a bug or if this is intended)
Remember, currently in the compmod exo's can't actually build anything, they can only weld. (I'm not sure if this is just a bug or if this is intended)
If that's intended it's yet another unintuitive not communicated hidden mechanic and should alone for that reason not go into the main game, imo.
I dont think the thrusters should work in multiple directions for exos; aliens are about skill-based movement, marines are about positioning. Giving exos the ability to strafe around like mentalists will make them enfuriating to play against.
And how do you explain jetpacks? Let alone the improved jetpacks in comp mod?
Hint : there's a reason they're preferred over exos, even when they were better.
I've got to say, its nice that the remaining ns2 community is wants all parts of the game to be viable. About a year or so ago, people were saying the flamethrower didn't need buffs because it was "easy to use" and was already good at taking out gorge nests.
I dont think the thrusters should work in multiple directions for exos; aliens are about skill-based movement, marines are about positioning. Giving exos the ability to strafe around like mentalists will make them enfuriating to play against.
And how do you explain jetpacks? Let alone the improved jetpacks in comp mod?
Hint : there's a reason they're preferred over exos, even when they were better.
I was about to say the same thing. Aliens are certainly more movement oriented than marines, but marine movement and positioning is still a part of the game.
Remember, currently in the compmod exo's can't actually build anything, they can only weld. (I'm not sure if this is just a bug or if this is intended)
If that's intended it's yet another unintuitive not communicated hidden mechanic and should alone for that reason not go into the main game, imo.
I disagree, it is a trial of a feature that is neither unintuitive or intuitive which is being tested to try out its viability. No one said anything about putting it in the main game, not sure where you got that from. I was just correcting someone who said that exo's in compmod could build structures which *right now* is not the case.
Remember, currently in the compmod exo's can't actually build anything, they can only weld. (I'm not sure if this is just a bug or if this is intended)
If that's intended it's yet another unintuitive not communicated hidden mechanic and should alone for that reason not go into the main game, imo.
I disagree, it is a trial of a feature that is neither unintuitive or intuitive which is being tested to try out its viability. No one said anything about putting it in the main game, not sure where you got that from. I was just correcting someone who said that exo's in compmod could build structures which *right now* is not the case.
I might be biased in my opinion and i know that the comp community wants to shape "their" game the way they want. But i really believe that in the end, the difference between comp and vanilla should be as little as possible. If that means that vanilla should incorporate comp mod, or if both should meet half way, i dont know, all i know is that with a community of the size of ns2, splitting it in two different games is really dangerous. And its really not necessary. If you look at the top e-sport games, the provide the same experience for pub and comp players, making watching comp games that more interesting. So all changes to the comp mod should also be looked at in the light of a possible vanilla inclusion, as i (this does not represent in any way the view of the CDT but is my personal opinion) see the comp mod as a testing ground for possible vanilla balance changes, not as a fork of the game.
It might also be interesting to have exos regenerate armor (at a moderate rate) if the pilot is in possesion of a welder, only while not in combat (perhaps while not moving as well?).
If there's going to be some exo rework with armor regeration thingy involved, how about making it activate when exo is not taking damage for a short while? If it's done in the right way, it creates gameplay where a group of exos has to take turns in tanking and regenerating and aliens have options to interrupt the regeneration with ranged attacks or flanking.
I dont think the thrusters should work in multiple directions for exos; aliens are about skill-based movement, marines are about positioning. Giving exos the ability to strafe around like mentalists will make them enfuriating to play against.
And how do you explain jetpacks? Let alone the improved jetpacks in comp mod?
Hint : there's a reason they're preferred over exos, even when they were better.
Make exos dual by default with a rail and mini-gun. Reduce rail player damage but have it steal energy and disable structure abilities such as arc/pulse. Versatility being the key on this idea.
Or allow exo's to summon up to 2 macs (similar to a gorge getting hydras) that are auto follow on the exo, and only repair or build structures when the exo is at full health and close proximity.
How does a discussion about balance end up focused solely on Exos, the most meaningless part of balance in NS2 currently?
It might also be because Exo's are the most broken thing in NS2 at the moment. And if they were taken out of NS2 right now, no one would bat an eye.
The only other major thing that needs a little work IMO is the GL, and I think we've all aggreed on the OP's idea to reduce player damage slightly.
Exos are just the biggest thing that absolutely need work, whereas the rest of the game is actually pretty stable right now.
You need to be careful on how you balance Exos. Before 250, teamplay wasn't always the right choice to kill and focus fire an exosuit. They had too much armor and consistent firepower for fades, skulks, lerks and gorges to take on. If you change the exosuit, you need to look at the Onos as well especially if they go down the route of more armor, less dps.
The weapon I want buffed the most is the flamethrower. At 25pres, they're bloody expensive for little reward and investment. Most people don't like playing support and if they do, they need to feel important but FL doesn't achieve this most of the time, any lifeform can challenge a FL even in the hands of an amazing player and usually come out on top. A slight DPS increase would be better tbh, they function well vs structures and lifeforms in terms of disabling abilities and effects but their dps is absurdly low.
[Exos]... And if they were taken out of NS2 right now, no one would bat an eye.
You, sir, just found the solution.
yes lets make all the dev time spent on them mean nothing. I mean, who cares about exos when JPs are so much better? Why even try to make them viable, comp will never use them anyway!
There is also something to be said for wasting a huge amount of time balancing a feature which breaks almost every role in NS2 (aka Exos). Simplicity is a large part of why NS1, which was arguably way more difficult to get into in terms of skill gaps, was actually easy to pickup. Things which once learned for one class could be applied to all classes in the game. Balancing a game with RPS works well for the RTS parts, but feels bad in the FPS parts. That's not to say all RPS tweaks are bad, but too much of it can completely ruin unit interactions, and the old exo was a very good example of that.
My main point is that exos should really come second to balancing the rest of the game. You shouldn't design the game around a single one of its units, but rather design the unit around the game.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2014
"Wasting a huge amount of time"..?
About the only time sink is convincing others that your suggestion is worth implementing and hopefully they engage in actual discussion instead of dismissing it - which does waste time..
Making a suggestion that fixes its supposed ability to break roles would be time better spent Imo. (it might help to explain how that's currently the case, as well)
Also I don't think *anyone* would say that the game has ever been balanced around the exo, nor is suggesting such a thing now..?
And finally, I feel like fun (playing a viable exo) is always just as important as balance.
"Wasting a huge amount of time"..?
About the only time sink is convincing others that your suggestion is worth implementing and hopefully they engage in actual discussion instead of dismissing it - which does waste time..
Making a suggestion that fixes its supposed ability to break roles would be time better spent Imo. (it might help to explain how that's currently the case, as well)
Also I don't think *anyone* would say that the game has ever been balanced around the exo, nor is suggesting such a thing now..?
And finally, I feel like fun (playing a viable exo) is always just as important as balance.
Maybe he means the time spent making the exos. If not, no clue.
And maybe he mentioned balancing around the exo because of all the discussion of exos in a thread about the balance as of 266 in general (not just exos). If not, no clue. I can't even make sense of that one, though.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
How about giving exo's a 2nd firemode. Like if they select weapon 2, they go into a relative long weapon switch where they change both guns (if they have 2, else 1) for a single arc canon?
I could see player controlled walking arcs become viable. And if you finetune the weapon switchtime enought you could make them pick between defending (railgun/minigun) or arcing.
As for the weapon switch.. well, its a huge machine.. surely you can fit some nanites in there to swap it over or something. Use your imagination.
Now modelwise i have no solution.
My main point is that exos should really come second to balancing the rest of the game. You shouldn't design the game around a single one of its units, but rather design the unit around the game.
Well, the game is fairly balanced right now, and Exos are left out. So we want to change the Exos to fit back in.
Which is pretty much what you're saying, actually.
Sure, whether Exos should have been implemented two years ago is a matter of discussion - just like anything else - but we do have them now, and we have to work with what we have.
based on my experience winning and losing as alien in pub games...
the marine weapons are fine.
exos arent purchased simply because everyone wants jetpacks and shottys and wastes their money dying with that combo.
flame thrower is NOT a heavy weapon it IS a supportive device and should remain so. heart that.
i dont see how you guys are going to get early game augmentations for marines without aliens building stuff in vents and off infestation (like in ns).
i would like to see new weapons/skills added (limited range/damage arc transform mode for exo?) to address the previous comments NOT a tweak of this added to that or that removed from this...that kind of development is never ending and its not fun to play a multiplayer game where nobody knows how the game works except for comp players.
i want NS2 players to know how the game plays without having to check forums every month for the latest changes.
the game is most unbalanced due to players not knowing how to play or how something is supposed to work and soo many of you guys are suggesting to change the exact things that many pub players are finally getting used to...
...there's my 10 cents. imo. etc.
... ...hm, on second thought nevermind that one thing about...
On grenade launchers, I feel like if a a marine gets a direct hit with a projectile on an alien at medium-long range, he super deserves it. But it feels like grenades still explode at a distance where aliens can't reasonably react to it. That feels cheap to me.
Reducing player damage scares me, because i feel like it might require a second marine for protection instead of encouraging one. And in the current pub format of ns2, you cant ensure your teammates will want to sit around and make sure you don't die with your gl.
Comments
I would much rather see exos take that role than introducing a HMG like comp mod does. the hmg basically replaces the exo and is a no brainer upgrade from the lmg. there is no specialization or anything.
But the problem with exos and welders, they consist only of armor, which means two exos have infinite health and armor. A marine is made of health and armor, and only the armor part can be welded. So something else then adding a welder would have to be found to make them viable. that said, a marine can have a welder inside an exo and just jump out to weld himself and others.
Going by that logic, two marines with a welder and a decent medpacking commander have infinite health, too.
Absolutely, but that requires resources (medpacks) and commander attention. so its really not the same thing
Besides, welding isn't exactly fast, and as far as I know, 1 skulk can out DPS a welder, not to mention Bile Bomb. I think many people are severely overestimating how much survivability welders would give exos.
Also, while ejecting is cool, I don't think of it as a viable solution. "Just get out and weld your own exo! It doesnt matter that your're probly going to have walk all the way back to base to be safe with that!"
It might also be interesting to have exos regenerate armor (at a moderate rate) if the pilot is in possesion of a welder, only while not in combat (perhaps while not moving as well?).
I also think modular exos are the way to go. I tried the modular exo mod a while back and found it not particularly intuitive. But the basics of "buy each part of the exo" are good IMO. I think options beyond what the arms are should be avoided for simplicity's sake.
Marines are all about positioning but every class in the game is built on being able to move in combat, except for the Exo suit. Even as a gorge, you run as fast as you can and jump/slide to escape combat. But as an exo you're expected to sit there and Tank damage while trying to get the stuff off your ankles.
I think this isn't a bad thing. But if the Exosuit is supposed to be an immobile(ish) damage dealer, it needs a lot more tanky of an armor value. It could be interesting to make exosuits unable to move at all while shooting (perhaps only Dualies), but instead give them more armor.
Elseways, They need to be more mobile. No more slowing to a near standstill while shooting is a good start. Thrusters would be interesting, but need some balance work (short distance, cooldown). And ideally a little more armor than they have now.
Handy Dandy Summary:
Two directions for Exos to go:
Massive, tanky, high dps, more-or-less immobile-while-deployed/shooting, high armor death machines
or
Big semi-tanky, decent dps, slightly mobile-in-combat, with heavier armor killing machines.
Personally I'm a fan of the latter as I think it'd be more fun to play with.
If that's intended it's yet another unintuitive not communicated hidden mechanic and should alone for that reason not go into the main game, imo.
And how do you explain jetpacks? Let alone the improved jetpacks in comp mod?
Hint : there's a reason they're preferred over exos, even when they were better.
@Benson
Zing!
I was about to say the same thing. Aliens are certainly more movement oriented than marines, but marine movement and positioning is still a part of the game.
I disagree, it is a trial of a feature that is neither unintuitive or intuitive which is being tested to try out its viability. No one said anything about putting it in the main game, not sure where you got that from. I was just correcting someone who said that exo's in compmod could build structures which *right now* is not the case.
I might be biased in my opinion and i know that the comp community wants to shape "their" game the way they want. But i really believe that in the end, the difference between comp and vanilla should be as little as possible. If that means that vanilla should incorporate comp mod, or if both should meet half way, i dont know, all i know is that with a community of the size of ns2, splitting it in two different games is really dangerous. And its really not necessary. If you look at the top e-sport games, the provide the same experience for pub and comp players, making watching comp games that more interesting. So all changes to the comp mod should also be looked at in the light of a possible vanilla inclusion, as i (this does not represent in any way the view of the CDT but is my personal opinion) see the comp mod as a testing ground for possible vanilla balance changes, not as a fork of the game.
Or allow exo's to summon up to 2 macs (similar to a gorge getting hydras) that are auto follow on the exo, and only repair or build structures when the exo is at full health and close proximity.
The only other major thing that needs a little work IMO is the GL, and I think we've all aggreed on the OP's idea to reduce player damage slightly.
Exos are just the biggest thing that absolutely need work, whereas the rest of the game is actually pretty stable right now.
The weapon I want buffed the most is the flamethrower. At 25pres, they're bloody expensive for little reward and investment. Most people don't like playing support and if they do, they need to feel important but FL doesn't achieve this most of the time, any lifeform can challenge a FL even in the hands of an amazing player and usually come out on top. A slight DPS increase would be better tbh, they function well vs structures and lifeforms in terms of disabling abilities and effects but their dps is absurdly low.
You, sir, just found the solution.
Don't. Please. I want my Exo.
yes lets make all the dev time spent on them mean nothing. I mean, who cares about exos when JPs are so much better? Why even try to make them viable, comp will never use them anyway!
My main point is that exos should really come second to balancing the rest of the game. You shouldn't design the game around a single one of its units, but rather design the unit around the game.
About the only time sink is convincing others that your suggestion is worth implementing and hopefully they engage in actual discussion instead of dismissing it - which does waste time..
Making a suggestion that fixes its supposed ability to break roles would be time better spent Imo. (it might help to explain how that's currently the case, as well)
Also I don't think *anyone* would say that the game has ever been balanced around the exo, nor is suggesting such a thing now..?
And finally, I feel like fun (playing a viable exo) is always just as important as balance.
Maybe he means the time spent making the exos. If not, no clue.
And maybe he mentioned balancing around the exo because of all the discussion of exos in a thread about the balance as of 266 in general (not just exos). If not, no clue. I can't even make sense of that one, though.
Good luck.
I could see player controlled walking arcs become viable. And if you finetune the weapon switchtime enought you could make them pick between defending (railgun/minigun) or arcing.
As for the weapon switch.. well, its a huge machine.. surely you can fit some nanites in there to swap it over or something. Use your imagination.
Now modelwise i have no solution.
Well, the game is fairly balanced right now, and Exos are left out. So we want to change the Exos to fit back in.
Which is pretty much what you're saying, actually.
Sure, whether Exos should have been implemented two years ago is a matter of discussion - just like anything else - but we do have them now, and we have to work with what we have.
the marine weapons are fine.
exos arent purchased simply because everyone wants jetpacks and shottys and wastes their money dying with that combo.
flame thrower is NOT a heavy weapon it IS a supportive device and should remain so. heart that.
i dont see how you guys are going to get early game augmentations for marines without aliens building stuff in vents and off infestation (like in ns).
i would like to see new weapons/skills added (limited range/damage arc transform mode for exo?) to address the previous comments NOT a tweak of this added to that or that removed from this...that kind of development is never ending and its not fun to play a multiplayer game where nobody knows how the game works except for comp players.
i want NS2 players to know how the game plays without having to check forums every month for the latest changes.
the game is most unbalanced due to players not knowing how to play or how something is supposed to work and soo many of you guys are suggesting to change the exact things that many pub players are finally getting used to...
...there's my 10 cents. imo. etc.
... ...hm, on second thought nevermind that one thing about...
Reducing player damage scares me, because i feel like it might require a second marine for protection instead of encouraging one. And in the current pub format of ns2, you cant ensure your teammates will want to sit around and make sure you don't die with your gl.