Marines have Cheap Tactics Available
Meeko011
NC, USA Join Date: 2014-04-14 Member: 195403Members
NC, USA Join Date: 2014-04-14 Member: 195403Members
Something that I've seen a lot of on the marines side is excessive jumping and pistol spamming. Currently, the pistol shoots as fast as you click. So you can fire faster (or almost as fast) than the machine gun, deal more damage, and have better accuracy/range. Also, whenever I'm a skulk trying to kill a marine he starts jumping around making it really hard to bite him. So my solutions to these annoying problems are as follows: make the marine's jumping come out of his sprint bar as jumping should take up just as much energy, and plus the skulks leap takes energy. And then also limit the pistols firing rate so that you have to wait like .3 seconds per shot or something like that, or nerf the pistol.
Comments
Pistols already have a delay, it's not true that you can fire it as fast as you can click.
But that's not really my gripe with this kind of thread.
You have identified that YOU have a problem - mainly biting marines that are good at dodging in this case. And your knee-jerk reaction is: "How can the developers of the game make this easier for ME?" - rather than asking your self "How can ~I~ improve?".
Moreover, the title of this thread has no relevance to the topic.
Remember, the pistol has a MUCH smaller clip than the rifle. It's mostly used for sniping and finishing off aliens anyways.
The movement is fine how it is now. There's a few reasons why a marine will be able to out-jump you. 1) You're just not aiming properly. If you're close enough to them and the bites are just not connecting, you need to improve your aim. 2) If you find that the marine is just jumping "across the room" and somehow "outrunning" you, chances are it's because you are ALSO jumping, and they are simply able to time it so they are jumping away from you at the same time you are. Since you're in midair, you can't course correct as easily, hence why it feels like they're jumping clear across the room. My advice for this is try to NOT jump as much as a skulk once you're already in the kill-zone, but instead try weaving around more, and using the walls if possible.
Be it balanced or not, it still makes a form of gameplay that ruins the magic for me. As I have to chase down the marine bouncing around like a superball while spinning and accurately shooting in mid-air. Kill him or not that just makes me not want to play, and so I don't anymore despite liking the overall design and concept. As well I've had a fair amount of times with low ping I have been literally shot around a corner or seen people kill hydras they have no LOS to. The game has some flaws.
Great concept, nearly great execution with some critical gameplay flaws. Along with it's steep learning curve, long required play time, and aforementioned balance issue with skilled players counting more for one side it's no surprise this game ended up only reaching a niche audience and then losing it.
It's my hope that by building from the ground up the Natural Selection Combat team can remedy some of these issues. Because I'm not hater, like I said like 90% of the game it's great, but the 10% of things that are not affect my enjoyment enough to not want to play it.
Easier to balance, can't exploit it, less skill variance, and helps the average player's accuracy for not having to mash click while aiming.
Jumping is a non issue though.
You acknowledge that there's a learning curve here, but call talented players on the other team hackers? I think I have never played w/ an actual hacker in ns2.
You really gotta remember to swoop your mouse hard when you're a skulk flying by a marine, tryin to land a bite. Just turning it slightly won't be enough to land one... SWOOP ME, DRAGON, SWOOP ME!
Pistol firerate IS capped.
Limiting skilled players, simply because they're skilled, is so dumb. You only nerf a feature if it's too strong compared to the other team. There is always going to be some players who are just better than others, no matter what mechanic you try to implement.
All that is going to happen if you implement something like this is, the top players will adjust, and most likely much faster than any of the casual players can, so it doesn't really make a difference does it?
I always say, a games difficulty is not measured by any mechanic in the game, it is solely measured by the quality of the opposing players.
An example of this is chess. Extremely simple game when you get down to it. The pieces have very basic movements, not a ton of rules, the board is very simple - yet it's one of the hardest board games in the world, why? Because the competition has evolved in thousands of years (idk how old chess is tbh) - and the players have just become insanely good. But if you play a toddler or what ever, suddently it's not so hard is it?
Same with poker - extremely simple card game. Yet, the players are so abnormally good nowadays, that the competition is just one of the fiercest in the world.
So stop whining that skill gaps are too big. Make it a goal for yourself to close the gap by becoming skilled yourself - because no mechanic will remedy your frustration.
Edit: Also, some of the technically difficult stuff, like aiming while spamming your M-key, is what makes games like these exciting! Who doesn't like watching Jaedong control 2 muta groups and a zergling group and macro perfectly simultaneously? Would you limit him somehow, just because nobody else in the world can do that? Fuck no, that's the stuff that makes sc:bw exciting to watch!
Having a manual pistol firing rate does not instantly make it a desirable feature, it makes it a secondary weapon most people can't effectively use. Take in point the fact they removed the 'feature' where you could shoot your shotgun a little faster if you time your shots correctly. It obviously doesn't fit in the rest of the game and adding artificial skill ceilings for the sake of skill ceilings is exactly why the game is so hard for new people to get into.
Marine jump energy
Marines jump
The new Marine jumping feels terrible
Marine jumping and firing mechanics
Marine jump backwards further than skulks forward
Please remove the ability for Marines to constantly jump all the time.
Marine jump: nr. 1 grief for rookies, mostlikely nr. 1 reason this game is so difficult, nr. 2 reason rookies turn away from this game before getting hooked (performance nr.1).
Nr.1 discussion that is brushed off as a l2p (well yes you will learn to deal with it eventually, but thats not the issue)...
Forget it @Meeko011, you will get nothing more than a cillion Disagrees. Nothing will happen again and this kind of threads will appear on and on until basically no
new players join the game anymore, which I assume is going to happen very very soon.
The shotgun fire timing thing was an unintended bug and a balance issue it's not related at all. I'd argue that the reason it's hard for new people to get in to, is because they're forced in to playing strong players. I've said it before, segregating the rookies from the competetive community is the only way to make the game easier for the rookies. It's probably no longer an option however, so it's a moot point.
Ah whatever, anyone can make a macro in less than 5 minutes anyways.
@Meeko011 What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?
But the movement system is exploitable, like running diagonally as aliens to maintain your speed much longer. Marines can use motion to their advantage, at some point Skulk's motion mechanics were changed. Despite being bound by 2 legs, Marines can counteract these effects.
Like in NS1, movement should have been affected by armour level.
-MARINES HAVE CHEAP TACTICS AVAILABLE (aka they can jump and fire a pistol) -lets delete both? haha
If you think jumping as marine is OP, try standing still then doing it 25 times backwards and see how far it get you
I said hackers sometimes happen. I've not played NS 2 for a terrible amount of time and I've seen 3 blatant hackers. People who will be able to wreck when the hack is on and then are terrible when their hack is off. As far as just people doing good without notcable variances or obvious hacks though? I can't say so I don't. The smarter hackers are the ones that don't be obvious. Now I won't say that they are even common, but I think it would be foolish to say they didn't exist at all. Realistically how can you tell the difference between the pro player who can 180 snap shot you and the hacker that uses a subtle aim bot that guides his aim rather than controls his aim?
The vast vast vast majority of people, even good ones, do not hack. But there are definitely still hackers out there and for every 1-2 blatant hackers there are 1-2 subtle ones. This is reality, every system of protection can and will be pierced and broken. Even the best developers and designs cannot prevent this.
No, this is just a red herring intended to guide the subject away from the real point, that point being that a single skilled marine can make a far bigger impact than a single skilled alien. You can witness this easily in the super effective videos that was pointed out earlier in this thread (which are very good). Pound for pound marines are far more lethal and aliens have to make up for it with more synergy, mobility, and utility. This variance is the biggest in the default unit of each side. While this might balance out in two good teams, when one team has 1-2 really good players each the marines have the definitive advantage. You can watch this happen as marines again and again have high impact and then have low impact as alien, because aliens depend much more on each other for individual kills.
Thus marines having a single skilled player advantage matters alot more than aliens having a single skilled player advantage. If there are only 1-2 skilled players in the game and 1 is on marines this is nearly insurmountable for the alien side. Average to good aliens will still likely lose vs this player 2 on 1, especially once armor is upgraded.
Now the point I really disagree with is that a single skilled marine can have a higher impact than an equally skilled alien. The marine will have the upper hand in the beginning because skulks have to close the distance, but once that equally skilled marine goes lerk, or more likely, a fade it switches. That marine can kill skulks all day long, but lerks and especially fades if good do not die, and just rack up kills and win more engagements.
You could then say that the beginning of the game has more impact on the rest of the game, and you would be correct. But aliens as a team need to have enough experience/skill to know how to play defensively until the higher life forms come out and turn the tides. You see just that in comp games, where the aliens play safe and defensively until fades come out. So this implies that this is instead a team skill issue not an individual one.
"Pound for pound marines are far more lethal and aliens have to make up for it with more synergy, mobility, and utility. This variance is the biggest in the default unit of each side."
This is only true for the default unit. A single fade should be able to take on a single marine shotgun or not at most skill levels. Lerks also at a lesser extent. Aliens are also more known for being able to be played more independently instead of in a pack, while marines have to group up. A lone marine is a dead marine at equal skill levels against anything lerk and up. I am not saying that aliens are more powerful in a pack, because more numbers are always better, but for aliens it is a lesser extent that marines.
Thus marines having a single skilled player advantage matters alot more than aliens having a single skilled player advantage. If there are only 1-2 skilled players in the game and 1 is on marines this is nearly insurmountable for the alien side. Average to good aliens will still likely lose vs this player 2 on 1, especially once armor is upgraded.
"Thus marines having a single skilled player advantage matters alot more than aliens having a single skilled player advantage. If there are only 1-2 skilled players in the game and 1 is on marines this is nearly insurmountable for the alien side. Average to good aliens will still likely lose vs this player 2 on 1, especially once armor is upgraded."
The default rifle can potentially kill 5 no upgrades no biomass skulks. So 2 on 1 is just the beginning. Again, that doesn't matter because once aliens get higher life forms ups that flips around. At equal skill levels aliens will win engagements more than marines will.
"especially once armor is upgraded."
Actually weapon upgrades go further with high skilled marines than armor does because their aim. It scales better with skilled marines because they actually land bullets meaning that skulk could potentially never make it near the marine to land a bite. My statement here is proven because it is a common strategy in competitive ns2 to go arms lab fist with weapon upgrades. Often even up to weapons 2 before getting armor 1.
Again, on skilled marines having higher impact than skilled aliens. Why do aliens win more often that marines then?
I don't really think there is jump spam. Each jump gets lets effective as you go. I personally only get 1 good jump in, maybe 2, and rarely 3 before I either win the engagement or die.
Being shot around corners is not something that can be fixed. You were in fact not shot around the corner, but before you went around, it just took that long (the speed of light) for your client to know you did actually die. They can't fix the speed of light.
Killing hydras without LOS I can not explain. Maybe they were just barely shooting the model around the corner. I would have to see it to know.
Lastly, I will end on that I am saddened that you and many others don't enjoy ns2. It is my favorite game and I really want to see it appreciated like it should be.
As for my two cents on marines and their jumping ability. I feel it is a bit too crazy, and I genuinely have no problem biting marines as a Skulk. I feel the problem lies with less about the distance and more about the jump height of strafe jumps. A forward jump should have maximum jump height. A backwards, or strafe jump should have significantly less height but still just enough to have equal distance as it does now. Never have I been so frustrated to come onto a marine and have them jump right over me.
Again, (As someone probably stated) this may be a L2P issue. However, people are leaving the game just for this issue and performance. Maybe you're fine with them leaving, but that'll just mean the game will continue to die.
He jumped from above where the texture edging meets. Now imagine trying to get 4 bites on this guy while being med spammed. xD
While I agree a skilled marine is superior when utilising the mechanics well. The games balance issues are more dependant on one side getting a little ahead, yielding major improvements, rather than more subtle upgrades. Nobody likes a one sided game, even if you're winning, power needs to be thrust back and fourth.
If he is being med spammed you should not be able to 1v1 him. Their commander is spending res for him to survive, not just spending but spamming.
I generally can, have over 600 hrs clocked. It just seems a bit silly such an increase in jump height from a patch before the Reinforced update.
Play in LAN, Marines basically win every game.
Yeah, that's called "skilled movement" and præs like it this way. This is a præ game, so if you want to continue to play it you should probably orient yourself towards acquiring more præness. "Cheap" is a codeword for not possessing enough præ and being mad about it, bræ.
No. It doesn't. It did before, but I believe they introduced a .1 second delay between shots I think a few patches ago. So it takes an entire second to unload a mag, which in this game is quite a long time. Also, the pistol doesn't do more damage than the AR - if you have armor - due to most of the initial "large portions of numbers" being absorbed by the armor. Do the math. It's also arguably easier to miss, because you have push to fire each shot whereas the AR is auto. Speaking of which, fuckings to ALL who use ANY macros in ANY games.
No way. I thought marines were supposed to like, die to you without any effort or resistance. Silly game.
It already does... lol?
It is already limited... lol?
Lol.
If you let marines get armor 3 and be able to afford med spam without acquiring teamwork or having at least a few fades or something to that effect, the game has already ended and you are highly encouraged to surrender. You should not be able to kill an armor 3 marine with a commander sitting on 20+ res for medpacks with an unupgraded skulk 1v1. That's the essence of this game. If you want a game which continues to be "fair" (lol, I said "fair") throughout the game, and you have as equal chance to win a 1v1 at the end as you did in the beginning, I highly suggest you drop this game immediately and move to something that doesn't have RTS elements. It'll save you a LOT of frustration.
In reality, most of the game is decided when marines have armor 0 and no money to spend on medpacks (the first 2-3 minutes), and I think it's pretty damn easy to get para+2 bites on marines.
P.S. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but skulks can actually jump to about the same height as marines... it's pretty fun, you should try it.
Most of the playerbase is not pups I would wager, since we have such a small playerbase, and we are decreasing in playerbase so we are losing more players than gaining.
Lan games are hardly a common thing. I am not sure, but I think they were talking about some kind of additional interp added for furure lan games to balance that out a bit.
When you perfect a rifle+pistol combo by quick drawing a pistol after you run out of rifle ammo, you can be a deadly force. Or use it to snipe very distant targets. It has a very small magazine, but is deadly accurate.
As for the marine jumping, jumping itself isn't such issue as strafe jumping, projecting you far away out of the aliens FOV. It helps for you to also jump and aim at the marine torso (roughly).
I suggest you watch It'sSuperEffective tutorial on skulks. It's quite helpful.
I watched all his videos. They only reinforce how much harder it is for the alien's basic unit (the skulk) to be played and to get kills than it is for the marines. Also consider this, factor in lag. Alot of players will not have perfect connections and lag will affect a skulks ability to land bites way worse than it'll affect marine's ability to land shots.
People in this thread can argue all day and night but this game has bled people for a reason. Aliens, the cool and unique part of this game, being much harder to learn/play is one of the biggest ones. Now we all agree that skulks are not competitive against normal marines and that the aliens rely on the higher life forms to compete. But consider that a rookie will die more often and end up skulk more often. Something as simple as the marine strafe jump, where they can continue to deal damage while making it much much more difficult for them to be killed, makes it 10 times harder for rookies.
This game has failed massively in the area of getting new players into the game. Other games like League of Legends with high skill caps have things in place to make have you play with other players of the same relative skill level.
Edit: I'd argue that the fade even fits in to a catagory similar to this. Surely, anyone who has played against a valk fade, knows that there's a considerably tall skill ceiling with the fade - but it's also true that absolutely hopeless fades can get a lot of easy frags as well.
An easy way to demonstrate this fact is, play combat. You will often see really bad fade players with a 40/10 K/D - just because they can rebuy that fade over and over again.