Do you want to draw a line? Hiding the viewmodels is just removing elements from your view (you could consider it an extension of your HUD), fluro skins and whitewalls is modifying the environment, which is a much bigger advantage, it affects other players and their visibility, not just your own.
Removing elements from your view also affects other players and not just yourself.
No it doesn't. Unless you want to say that your FOV settings affect other players and their visibility in regards to the environment.
Do you want to draw a line? Hiding the viewmodels is just removing elements from your view (you could consider it an extension of your HUD), fluro skins and whitewalls is modifying the environment, which is a much bigger advantage, it affects other players and their visibility, not just your own.
Removing elements from your view also affects other players and not just yourself.
No it doesn't. Unless you want to say that your FOV settings affect other players and their visibility in regards to the environment.
The visibility aspect is making them easier to see, where usually you'd have a hard time with it, like when quickly checking corners you can sometimes not see a skulk, whereas if it was a whitewall you'd probably pick up on it easily.
Alright we're on the same page there. What I was confused about was you writing:
it affects other players and their visibility, not just your own
The holograms are no different from removing the particles from the maps, it's only there because it's easier to maintain it in code than it is to make a separate mapfile (with the workshop problems that come with it), it's making NSL maps happen without having separate mapfiles, ie. competition-level levels without the need to maintain two sets of mapfiles. Which is removing useless visual fluff from maps in a competitive setting. It's different, I'd say.
I completely understand the convenience in having it in one code, I really do. But YOU set up the criteria for where you drew the line on what modifications are allowed on your mod - I'm pointing out that you are technically violating that same line.
If it is for convenience, I'm fine with it at this point, mostly because we played with the nsl maps for so long that it sort of is ingrained with comp ns2 at this point.
All I ask is that convenience doesn't become a standard response. "Why are macros allowed" -"It's more convenient that way".
it was recently revealed that one of the most respected high level players, who incidentally played on Bitey's team, had been hacking with triggerbots for over a year.
It would have to be proved. You can't ban ppl on NSL by random UWE forum posts sry swalk x}
I'm not swalk lol. But there's no need for proof, we have your admission on these forums. Moreover, if you had bothered to read my comment you would notice that I explicitly said I do NOT think you deserve ban or sanction (twice) and that I'd defend you if it came to that.
I'm gonna summon @Pelargir on this one, because large parts of his message appears to be under the same false assumption.
Not banning herakles for admitting to using macros in officials is shameful to everyone who has a say in it and it reflects on the NSL image.
That was how long ago? Over a year? If @Herakl3s showed up and said he was actively using macros, then yes, it would be something. For him to say that he was using them a year+ ago is reason for the refs/admins to monitor his gameplay, but not something to ban him for now. Shameful? Maybe for Herakles. Besides, he could have just been saying that to ruffle your feathers.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
The real question @joshhh is (not that you posed a question), what does @herakl3s think about removing view-models and its effect on the game by enabling a choice between two advantages.
As far as I'm concerned a pistol script doesn't add or remove the game allowing you to press a button at a certain rate
I'm not a comp player so I've not chimed in at all here, but I gotta say I find it pretty amusing that some of the world's most skilled players prefer something like this to make it easier. Thought you guys were so pro (some of you have some of my money), you wouldn't need the help. Call it what you want.. "preference" seems to be the hot word. But to me it really seems like an advantage, and again... laughable.
I'm not a comp player so I've not chimed in at all here, but I gotta say I find it pretty amusing that some of the world's most skilled players prefer something like this to make it easier. Thought you guys were so pro (some of you have some of my money), you wouldn't need the help. Call it what you want.. "preference" seems to be the hot word. But to me it really seems like an advantage, and again... laughable.
I'm not sure why you made this post then if not to just antagonize people for their personal preferences? View model customization has been a thing in FPS gaming for a long time - Quake and TF2 allow you to turn them off to the point you can leave specific weapon view models on and turn others off, games like csgo allow you to adjust the size and offset of your view models so they appear smaller. It's a common aspect of most competitive FPS games, but is not a mandatory change needed to be pro or to have an advantage.
Since you are not a comp player, it may seem advantageous, but there are literally 2-3 people in this thread who think they do offer a tangible advantage - an advantage that has been refuted by the majority of comp players. You will find in this thread that the majority still play with both on, and in my opinion that number would be even higher if you polled the entire comp community.
I'm still waiting for someone to show us that no view models has a significant positive effect on marine/alien accuracy and can magically lead to more kills and more wins... But until then, this thread is flogging a dead horse. Poor horse
I'm not sure why you made this post then if not to just antagonize people for their personal preferences?
*Snip* Knock it off. I also give 0 fks and am not trying to antagonize anybody about their preference over view models. Just voicing my opinion like every one else in this thread. Or am I not allowed?
All I said is that I think it's funny that some at the very top tier use this as an advantage. If they didn't find it at least slightly advantageous then I'm sure they wouldn't disable them. Again, you all call it "preference." Whatever, I don't give a shit if they do or don't. I'm not arguing the fact that it's in other early/solid fps games. I just think it's funny, that's all. And this being the internet and all...
If it was clear to everybody about how to do it before ns2+ made it an option, then how come I and many others in this thread only just found out about it recently? I'm guessing at least 70% of the playerbase didnt/doesnt know about it. Especially the large majority of players who aren't forum-goers. It wasn't included as a standard option in vanilla game setting options... maybe for a reason?
I'm still waiting for someone to show us that no view models has a significant positive effect on marine/alien accuracy and can magically lead to more kills and more wins... But until then, this thread is flogging a dead horse. Poor horse
It should be proven that it provides no advantage if you want to make the change, not the other way around. Maybe thats just here, idk.
*snip* I also give 0 fks and am not trying to antagonize anybody about their preference over view models. Just voicing my opinion like every one else in this thread. Or am I not allowed?
All I said is that I think it's funny that some at the very top tier use this as an advantage. If they didn't find it at least slightly advantageous then I'm sure they wouldn't disable them. Again, you all call it "preference." Whatever, I don't give a shit if they do or don't. I'm not arguing the fact that it's in other early/solid fps games. I just think it's funny, that's all. And this being the internet and all...
If it was clear to everybody about how to do it before ns2+ made it an option, then how come I and many others in this thread only just found out about it recently? I'm guessing at least 70% of the playerbase didnt/doesnt know about it. Especially the large majority of players who aren't forum-goers. It wasn't included as a standard option in vanilla game setting options... maybe for a reason?
You're voicing an opinion, which you yourself said is based upon 0 competitive experience. How is that helping this thread, which is specifically discussing view models in competitive play? This isn't the general forum. You have the right to voice your opinion, but don't preface it with 'I'm not a comp player' and think that you can then say stuff like "it really seems like an advantage, and again... laughable" - because you are basing that opinion on 0 evidence or competitive experience, and then passing judgement on those comp players that do turn them off by suggesting it's laughable. So again, why even post if you give 0 fks if it wasn't to antagonize people for their preferences?
Also - anyone can scroll through the ns2+ menu in-game and find the view model option. In my experience the majority of comp players will know about ns2+ and will have tweaked at least one setting in there, so pleading ignorance isn't a defense. As for why it hasn't made it's way into vanilla yet - that's something @mendasp or @decoy can answer.
I'm still waiting for someone to show us that no view models has a significant positive effect on marine/alien accuracy and can magically lead to more kills and more wins... But until then, this thread is flogging a dead horse. Poor horse
It should be proven that it provides no advantage if you want to make the change, not the other way around. Maybe thats just here, idk.
Well if you follow that logic - then you're essentially saying that no view models is guilty until proven innocent. It should be the other way around - ie, they are allowed until there is substantiated evidence to suggest that there is an unfair advantage to those that turn them off. Otherwise you are opening the door and saying that every personal preference from mouse type, keyboard, monitor, sensitivity, gamma levels, alien vision etc would have to be checked and proven to provide no advantage.
It wasn't included as a standard option in vanilla game setting options... maybe for a reason?
Two things @2cough:
1. Stop being intentionally rude to other forum users.
2. Everything from NS2+ that has made it into vanilla was first part of NS2+. Just because something isn't part of vanilla right now doesn't mean it won't ever be. Mendasp updates his thread every time he makes changes in NS2+ btw, so if you'd like to actually know what's been done, you can check out his thread.
But really guys, the horse died on page 2. The last two pages of this thread have just been reiterating what others have already said. The big dogs already deemed it as an acceptable option and that isn't going to change. Who knows, it might even make its way into vanilla. Then what are y'all going to complain about?
I'm still waiting for someone to show us that no view models has a significant positive effect on marine/alien accuracy and can magically lead to more kills and more wins... But until then, this thread is flogging a dead horse. Poor horse
It should be proven that it provides no advantage if you want to make the change, not the other way around. Maybe thats just here, idk.
Please do not lecture us on the process of reason or skepticism:
I won't accept any explanations personally, as this is without sense
You completely forfeited your own opinion as soon as you open this thread. You are by definition; unreasonable.
The burden of proof is on the claimant, that would be you. And even though you presented no reasoning what so ever, you have gotten plenty from high level players. The fact that so many high level players choose not to use the option, should by itself be evidence enough to disprove your unfounded claim - in spite of the fact that no proof is required.
We told you allready things like gamma, digital vibrance, sound systems, macros affect your performance a lot and those view models do not.
(personally got them off on rines because i got used to that in quake and UT, again i hit the exact same accuracies, and get ambushed or out strafed as much)
I can't even understand the guys like you and swalk who are giving 0 credits to the top players who kept explaining this.
But looking at the votes he must feel so lonely and salty.
Oh and btw i gave examples, stats and experiences, you still gave nothing.
I'm still waiting for someone to show us that no view models has a significant positive effect on marine/alien accuracy and can magically lead to more kills and more wins... But until then, this thread is flogging a dead horse. Poor horse
It should be proven that it provides no advantage if you want to make the change, not the other way around. Maybe thats just here, idk.
Please do not lecture us on the process of reason or skepticism:
I won't accept any explanations personally, as this is without sense
You completely forfeited your own opinion as soon as you open this thread. You are by definition; unreasonable.
The burden of proof is on the claimant, that would be you. And even though you presented no reasoning what so ever, you have gotten plenty from high level players. The fact that so many high level players choose not to use the option, should by itself be evidence enough to disprove your unfounded claim - in spite of the fact that no proof is required.
I posted a picture which shows the impact I don't like, not nothing
Which you fail to mention yet again that its a completely inaccurate way that someone with viewmodels on would actually approach building that power node. View models don't affect anything.
I posted a picture which shows the impact I don't like, not nothing
Which you fail to mention yet again that its a completely inaccurate way that someone with viewmodels on would actually approach building that power node. View models don't affect anything.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2014
This thread is hilarious, the same people that argued and decided that this should be accepted into the league, are the same people that defend this decision with false and empty claims, which they label as "facts". And on top of that, trying to surpress the fact that this thread is still going strong with very valid arguments to why removing viewmodels is bad for competetive play. I don't really care how good people are at the game, if they sprout out empty and false claims simply to protect their poor decision-making, then they don't have much to offer anyway and should not be listened to or be making decisions of this caliber.
The skulk viewmodel blocks 4/5ths of your screen when attacking, removing something that blocks that much of the screen(when you attack your opponent) is an undeniable advantage. Anyone saying otherwise is either blind or too stupid to see/realize what is right in front of them. Maybe it has to do with defending a past decision, who knows.. No one likes to admit they were wrong.
The argument of having information removed by removing the viewmodels is PURELY FALSE. Put on HL2-style information in the same NS2+ options and you can see all the information that you need(EVEN WHEN YOU ARE GETTING SCANNED AND SH*T). The rifle jam is EXACTLY as obnoxious with viewmodels ON as it is with them OFF. It is quite simple; removing viewmodels is a pure advantage, IT HAS NO DOWNSIDE AT ALL. That is FACT, just try it out and see for yourselves.
Some of the other stupid arguments like; "Aim doesn't get better by removing viewmodels" - EXACTLY, you are correct in this claim! BUT, in reality aim doesn't have anything to do with this and I find it hilarious that it is even used as an argument to have this implemented/not removed from the league.
However, giving you a wider view when attacking as a skulk/lerk, you will have a MUCH easier time to keep track of your opponent(that doesn't nessesarily mean keeping your aim DIRECTLY at your opponent, but simply keeping them in your viewable part of the screen). Again; THIS is the advantage gained from removing viewmodels. It will most likely not be evident at the highest level where aim is expected to be near-flawless.
Same goes for comparing NS2 to other competive games where it is generally accepted to remove viewmodels, like quake. Quake or ANY of the other mentioned games does NOT have viewmodels that block 4/5ths(THE MAJORITY) of your screen. It is litterally stupid to make such a comparison, NONE of those games have the nowhere near the same viewmodel mechanics as NS2.
The fact that alot more use the viewmodels than not, doesn't surprice me at all. Some people are just too stupid to see the advantages of certain things and trust the word of "high level players" waaaay too much. Others simply don't like to modify their game to gain advantages. This fact is not really any form of proof that this is not an advantage or that it is okay to have it in the league. In fact I would use it as an argument to say; why do we allow this obvious advantage to a clear minority of people who will take use of it?
When will whitewalls and pink skulks get implemented? We are already tumbling around in this category by removing viewmodels in NS2. All of them remove potential visual obscurity and make it alot easier to see what is going on, on your screen. I don't find any of these mods to be good additions to competetive play. Actually, the only thing they do is DECREASE the already fairly low skillcap of the game, which is quite the shame. And since it is an option and not something that is enforced on everyone, these options only give advantages to specific players, which destroys the level playing field.
There is no doubt that removing viewmodels have no effect on players that are able to keep their target in the viewable part of the screen at all times, with viewmodels on. The question is, do you really want to keep arguing that; "if it works on the highest level of play, it should just be implemented" ???
I think NOT. The league should cater to ALL levels of play, as per the mission statement. But that part of the mission statement seems to have been practicly ignored since I left NSL. The top division players opinions have been weighed much higher than other players opinions. Just because you are good at something doesn't mean you got the right morals or opinions on it. It is however quite sad to see these people(with terrible online gaming morals) are waving their victory banners.
Happy holidays to all, even those that have poor decision-making and bad gaming morals.
Such intelligence and impressive arguments are rarely seen. All you do is piggyback what others say, without having any counter-arguments to the opposition. You are not contributing anything to this discussion.
Comments
Yes, I would say that it affects others.
If it is for convenience, I'm fine with it at this point, mostly because we played with the nsl maps for so long that it sort of is ingrained with comp ns2 at this point.
All I ask is that convenience doesn't become a standard response. "Why are macros allowed" -"It's more convenient that way".
I'm not swalk lol. But there's no need for proof, we have your admission on these forums. Moreover, if you had bothered to read my comment you would notice that I explicitly said I do NOT think you deserve ban or sanction (twice) and that I'd defend you if it came to that.
I'm gonna summon @Pelargir on this one, because large parts of his message appears to be under the same false assumption.
That was how long ago? Over a year? If @Herakl3s showed up and said he was actively using macros, then yes, it would be something. For him to say that he was using them a year+ ago is reason for the refs/admins to monitor his gameplay, but not something to ban him for now. Shameful? Maybe for Herakles. Besides, he could have just been saying that to ruffle your feathers.
As far as I'm concerned a pistol script doesn't add or remove the game allowing you to press a button at a certain rate
I'm not sure why you made this post then if not to just antagonize people for their personal preferences? View model customization has been a thing in FPS gaming for a long time - Quake and TF2 allow you to turn them off to the point you can leave specific weapon view models on and turn others off, games like csgo allow you to adjust the size and offset of your view models so they appear smaller. It's a common aspect of most competitive FPS games, but is not a mandatory change needed to be pro or to have an advantage.
Since you are not a comp player, it may seem advantageous, but there are literally 2-3 people in this thread who think they do offer a tangible advantage - an advantage that has been refuted by the majority of comp players. You will find in this thread that the majority still play with both on, and in my opinion that number would be even higher if you polled the entire comp community.
I'm still waiting for someone to show us that no view models has a significant positive effect on marine/alien accuracy and can magically lead to more kills and more wins... But until then, this thread is flogging a dead horse. Poor horse
*Snip* Knock it off. I also give 0 fks and am not trying to antagonize anybody about their preference over view models. Just voicing my opinion like every one else in this thread. Or am I not allowed?
All I said is that I think it's funny that some at the very top tier use this as an advantage. If they didn't find it at least slightly advantageous then I'm sure they wouldn't disable them. Again, you all call it "preference." Whatever, I don't give a shit if they do or don't. I'm not arguing the fact that it's in other early/solid fps games. I just think it's funny, that's all. And this being the internet and all...
If it was clear to everybody about how to do it before ns2+ made it an option, then how come I and many others in this thread only just found out about it recently? I'm guessing at least 70% of the playerbase didnt/doesnt know about it. Especially the large majority of players who aren't forum-goers. It wasn't included as a standard option in vanilla game setting options... maybe for a reason?
It should be proven that it provides no advantage if you want to make the change, not the other way around. Maybe thats just here, idk.
You're voicing an opinion, which you yourself said is based upon 0 competitive experience. How is that helping this thread, which is specifically discussing view models in competitive play? This isn't the general forum. You have the right to voice your opinion, but don't preface it with 'I'm not a comp player' and think that you can then say stuff like "it really seems like an advantage, and again... laughable" - because you are basing that opinion on 0 evidence or competitive experience, and then passing judgement on those comp players that do turn them off by suggesting it's laughable. So again, why even post if you give 0 fks if it wasn't to antagonize people for their preferences?
Also - anyone can scroll through the ns2+ menu in-game and find the view model option. In my experience the majority of comp players will know about ns2+ and will have tweaked at least one setting in there, so pleading ignorance isn't a defense. As for why it hasn't made it's way into vanilla yet - that's something @mendasp or @decoy can answer.
Well if you follow that logic - then you're essentially saying that no view models is guilty until proven innocent. It should be the other way around - ie, they are allowed until there is substantiated evidence to suggest that there is an unfair advantage to those that turn them off. Otherwise you are opening the door and saying that every personal preference from mouse type, keyboard, monitor, sensitivity, gamma levels, alien vision etc would have to be checked and proven to provide no advantage.
Two things @2cough:
1. Stop being intentionally rude to other forum users.
2. Everything from NS2+ that has made it into vanilla was first part of NS2+. Just because something isn't part of vanilla right now doesn't mean it won't ever be. Mendasp updates his thread every time he makes changes in NS2+ btw, so if you'd like to actually know what's been done, you can check out his thread.
But really guys, the horse died on page 2. The last two pages of this thread have just been reiterating what others have already said. The big dogs already deemed it as an acceptable option and that isn't going to change. Who knows, it might even make its way into vanilla. Then what are y'all going to complain about?
Please do not lecture us on the process of reason or skepticism:
You completely forfeited your own opinion as soon as you open this thread. You are by definition; unreasonable.
The burden of proof is on the claimant, that would be you. And even though you presented no reasoning what so ever, you have gotten plenty from high level players. The fact that so many high level players choose not to use the option, should by itself be evidence enough to disprove your unfounded claim - in spite of the fact that no proof is required.
Edit: Merry Christmas.
(personally got them off on rines because i got used to that in quake and UT, again i hit the exact same accuracies, and get ambushed or out strafed as much)
I can't even understand the guys like you and swalk who are giving 0 credits to the top players who kept explaining this.
But looking at the votes he must feel so lonely and salty.
Oh and btw i gave examples, stats and experiences, you still gave nothing.
Merry Christmas!
My only point is that it's possible
I can grasp at straws too.
Proof
The skulk viewmodel blocks 4/5ths of your screen when attacking, removing something that blocks that much of the screen(when you attack your opponent) is an undeniable advantage. Anyone saying otherwise is either blind or too stupid to see/realize what is right in front of them. Maybe it has to do with defending a past decision, who knows.. No one likes to admit they were wrong.
The argument of having information removed by removing the viewmodels is PURELY FALSE. Put on HL2-style information in the same NS2+ options and you can see all the information that you need(EVEN WHEN YOU ARE GETTING SCANNED AND SH*T). The rifle jam is EXACTLY as obnoxious with viewmodels ON as it is with them OFF. It is quite simple; removing viewmodels is a pure advantage, IT HAS NO DOWNSIDE AT ALL. That is FACT, just try it out and see for yourselves.
Some of the other stupid arguments like; "Aim doesn't get better by removing viewmodels" - EXACTLY, you are correct in this claim! BUT, in reality aim doesn't have anything to do with this and I find it hilarious that it is even used as an argument to have this implemented/not removed from the league.
However, giving you a wider view when attacking as a skulk/lerk, you will have a MUCH easier time to keep track of your opponent(that doesn't nessesarily mean keeping your aim DIRECTLY at your opponent, but simply keeping them in your viewable part of the screen). Again; THIS is the advantage gained from removing viewmodels. It will most likely not be evident at the highest level where aim is expected to be near-flawless.
Same goes for comparing NS2 to other competive games where it is generally accepted to remove viewmodels, like quake. Quake or ANY of the other mentioned games does NOT have viewmodels that block 4/5ths(THE MAJORITY) of your screen. It is litterally stupid to make such a comparison, NONE of those games have the nowhere near the same viewmodel mechanics as NS2.
The fact that alot more use the viewmodels than not, doesn't surprice me at all. Some people are just too stupid to see the advantages of certain things and trust the word of "high level players" waaaay too much. Others simply don't like to modify their game to gain advantages. This fact is not really any form of proof that this is not an advantage or that it is okay to have it in the league. In fact I would use it as an argument to say; why do we allow this obvious advantage to a clear minority of people who will take use of it?
When will whitewalls and pink skulks get implemented? We are already tumbling around in this category by removing viewmodels in NS2. All of them remove potential visual obscurity and make it alot easier to see what is going on, on your screen. I don't find any of these mods to be good additions to competetive play. Actually, the only thing they do is DECREASE the already fairly low skillcap of the game, which is quite the shame. And since it is an option and not something that is enforced on everyone, these options only give advantages to specific players, which destroys the level playing field.
There is no doubt that removing viewmodels have no effect on players that are able to keep their target in the viewable part of the screen at all times, with viewmodels on. The question is, do you really want to keep arguing that; "if it works on the highest level of play, it should just be implemented" ???
I think NOT. The league should cater to ALL levels of play, as per the mission statement. But that part of the mission statement seems to have been practicly ignored since I left NSL. The top division players opinions have been weighed much higher than other players opinions. Just because you are good at something doesn't mean you got the right morals or opinions on it. It is however quite sad to see these people(with terrible online gaming morals) are waving their victory banners.
Happy holidays to all, even those that have poor decision-making and bad gaming morals.
Find a pillow
Do you have anything valuable to contribute to this discussion? Guess not.
I have tissues