Some of the other stupid arguments like; "Aim doesn't get better by removing viewmodels" - EXACTLY, you are correct in this claim! BUT, in reality aim doesn't have anything to do with this and I find it hilarious that it is even used as an argument to have this implemented/not removed from the league.
However, giving you a wider view when attacking as a skulk/lerk, you will have a MUCH easier time to keep track of your opponent(that doesn't nessesarily mean keeping your aim DIRECTLY at your opponent, but simply keeping them in your viewable part of the screen). Again; THIS is the advantage gained from removing viewmodels. It will most likely not be evident at the highest level where aim is expected to be near-flawless.
So you're saying that being able to see the marine in my screen will improve my tracking. If my tracking improved, it would make sense that my accuracy would, too. Since I can see him and track him I should be able to bite/spike/whatever him.
When I tried it, that wasn't the case for me. Accuracy stayed within the same range. Others in this thread have shared the exact same experience. I'm no top level player. I commanded a div 2 team but probably only shoot at div 2-3 level. If this was such an advantage for lower level players, why doesn't a baddie like me find any great accuracy advantages?
Quake or ANY of the other mentioned games does NOT have viewmodels that block 4/5ths(THE MAJORITY) of your screen. It is litterally stupid to make such a comparison, NONE of those games have the nowhere near the same viewmodel mechanics as NS2.
You say all of this like it was purposefully designed that "the skulk bite must take up 80% of the screen". I am not sure where you are pulling that from. I've read the high level design docs from UWE and didn't find anything like that. I'll have to find them again and double check. Regardless, you have zero proof that this was something that was intentionally done just to block the screen. How do you know it wasn't for immersion purposes? Art purposes?
If you are going to spout at everyone else that they need proof to back up the things that they are saying, you should really set the example and do so yourself.
The fact that alot more use the viewmodels than not, doesn't surprice me at all. Some people are just too stupid to see the advantages of certain things and trust the word of "high level players" waaaay too much. Others simply don't like to modify their game to gain advantages. This fact is not really any form of proof that this is not an advantage or that it is okay to have it in the league. In fact I would use it as an argument to say; why do we allow this obvious advantage to a clear minority of people who will take use of it?
I like how you continually call people who think view models are a bad thing stupid. Then you go on to call people who think viewmodels are good stupid. Awesome.
I prefer view models on. I've tried it off. I had more trouble timing my bites/swipes. I'd sometimes fatfinger a key and wouldn't be sure what I had out (gorge particularly). That was my biggest problem. I appreciated how sleek it felt, but as I didn't have any noticeable increase in accuracy, I didn't feel it was worthwhile. Personally? I don't have problems tracking marines with view models on. As skulk, it doesn't completely close the mouth. You can still see them. So there was no great tracking increase. I knew where the marine was view models on or off.
It's ridiculous to think that players are not turning view models off to "modify their game to gain advantages". In NS2, if something is OP, it gets all sorts of abused. There are very few people who would be noble enough to think that it's a massive advantage and not use it.
And since it is an option and not something that is enforced on everyone, these options only give advantages to specific players, which destroys the level playing field.
So should custom crosshairs be banned? Or the minimal UI? What about certain brightness/gamma settings or refresh rates of monitors? What about resolution? I turn my in-game music off so that I can always hear footsteps. That's an advantage. These are all options that are not enforced. Do you see what a ridiculous argument it turns into?
The league should cater to ALL levels of play, as per the mission statement. But that part of the mission statement seems to have been practicly ignored since I left NSL.
I completely disagree. I see the internal balance chat that goes on. When changes were discussed, it was not just premier level. It is discussed extensively if it will affect the lower divisions and how. When players bring up issues that only really affect the lower levels of play, it gets just as much time and attention as other problems. Things have been adjusted purely because the lower level players feel that they need something changed. Just because you are clueless to it doesn't mean it does not happen. Believe it or not, Swalk, the world actually still functions and exists even when you are not part of it.
I have found you to be extremely insulting through your entire post. Not just to the people who have argued against you in this thread, but anyone who has any ideas at all that differ from your own. If you actually want anyone to take you seriously, name calling and rudeness is not the way to do it.
So you're saying that being able to see the marine in my screen will improve my tracking. If my tracking improved, it would make sense that my accuracy would, too. Since I can see him and track him I should be able to bite/spike/whatever him.
When I tried it, that wasn't the case for me. Accuracy stayed within the same range. Others in this thread have shared the exact same experience. I'm no top level player. I commanded a div 2 team but probably only shoot at div 2-3 level. If this was such an advantage for lower level players, why doesn't a baddie like me find any great accuracy advantages?
No, as it clearly says in my post, keeping track of the movement of your target and aiming at your target is NOT the same thing. Not sure how to make you understand it, try reading it over again and actually think about it more than a second. It does NOT improve your accuracy, but you will have a much easier time keeping track of your targets movement in melee combat. Removing them won't magically make you aim better, still it is a significant advantage to be able to see things that would otherwise be out of your vision.
You say all of this like it was purposefully designed that "the skulk bite must take up 80% of the screen". I am not sure where you are pulling that from. I've read the high level design docs from UWE and didn't find anything like that. I'll have to find them again and double check. Regardless, you have zero proof that this was something that was intentionally done just to block the screen. How do you know it wasn't for immersion purposes? Art purposes?
If you are going to spout at everyone else that they need proof to back up the things that they are saying, you should really set the example and do so yourself.
I've awnsered this before in this topic. It was made this way, therefore it is designed to be this way. It does not have to be in any document to be proved. Just look at the vanilla game.
The viewmodel plays the part of doing many things, not just ONE thing.
I like how you continually call people who think view models are a bad thing stupid. Then you go on to call people who think viewmodels are good stupid. Awesome.
Not sure where you picked that up, viewmodels are not inheritly bad or good. But they have alot of functions in this game. I think it is stupid to remove something that blocks the majority of your view(because it requires a decent amount of skill to work around that visual blockade) and those that think that it is okay to remove something that blocks most of your view.
I prefer view models on. I've tried it off. I had more trouble timing my bites/swipes. I'd sometimes fatfinger a key and wouldn't be sure what I had out (gorge particularly). That was my biggest problem. I appreciated how sleek it felt, but as I didn't have any noticeable increase in accuracy, I didn't feel it was worthwhile. Personally? I don't have problems tracking marines with view models on. As skulk, it doesn't completely close the mouth. You can still see them. So there was no great tracking increase. I knew where the marine was view models on or off.
In reality there is not much "timing" to bite/swipes, both are instantanious and will connect if you have your bite/swipe hitbox cone in range of your target. There is really only the interval of when you can do the second bite/swipe, which is portrayed by the sound in your headset and your general sense of time itself.
Guess you are just able to always keep marines in 1/5th of your screen in hectec melee combat then, lots of players are not able to do this. What about them?
It's ridiculous to think that players are not turning view models off to "modify their game to gain advantages". In NS2, if something is OP, it gets all sorts of abused. There are very few people who would be noble enough to think that it's a massive advantage and not use it.
So should custom crosshairs be banned? Or the minimal UI? What about certain brightness/gamma settings or refresh rates of monitors? What about resolution? I turn my in-game music off so that I can always hear footsteps. That's an advantage. These are all options that are not enforced. Do you see what a ridiculous argument it turns into?
Yeah I see what you modified my argument into by comparing the removal of viewmodels with crosshairs. A better comparison would be to compare removal of viewmodels and the addition of whitewalls. Those modifications are much more similar, they both give you alot better vision.
Lots of these things you mention are practically impossible to enforce and some even depend on the limits of your monitor/system, like gamma, refresh rates, resolution. And on top of that, they don't give vision to the same extend that removing viewmodels do. At maximum, they make it easier for you to see what you can already see. Removing viewmodels makes you able to see something you otherwise wouldn't have been able to see.
It is about WHERE to draw that line in the sand. Right now we've drawn the line where viewmodels are okay. But when looking at what kind of modification that is, you quickly find out that whitewalls and pink skulks are in the same category.
I completely disagree. I see the internal balance chat that goes on. When changes were discussed, it was not just premier level. It is discussed extensively if it will affect the lower divisions and how. When players bring up issues that only really affect the lower levels of play, it gets just as much time and attention as other problems. Things have been adjusted purely because the lower level players feel that they need something changed. Just because you are clueless to it doesn't mean it does not happen. Believe it or not, Swalk, the world actually still functions and exists even when you are not part of it.
I have found you to be extremely insulting through your entire post. Not just to the people who have argued against you in this thread, but anyone who has any ideas at all that differ from your own. If you actually want anyone to take you seriously, name calling and rudeness is not the way to do it.
Yes, you are a part of that internal chat. It is known.
Just try reading this thread, the people that have access to this chat only seem to have the top division in mind in this subject. Comparing accuracy(which have no direct connection to keeping track of a target, ie. knowing where your target is) and other arguments which basicly have nothing to do with the viewmodels. Sorry if I come across as insulting, but I really think it is stupid to allow such a thing as this. We are swimming in the same pond as whitewalls and pink skulks, hence why it aggrevates me. Neither whitewalls or pink skulks increase your accuracy, they just make it easier to see your target. Exactly the same as removing viewmodels.
I would also prefer not to have to call anyone out, but I am simply stating how things look from my point of view and I do not like what I see. I see the league I started, degrading in fairness and favoritizing specific levels of play.
Funny that you say that things have been adjusted to accomodate the lower divisions, when did that ever happen? From what I've seen on the few balance mod threads on ensl and most other decisions that have been made, they seem to favor the ones playing in the top division/those in the internal chat. Not to mention this thread.
Everyone agreed that the game was stale and unbalanced. "Let's make a balance mod!" (the game was not really being worked on anymore)
- Practically everyone agreed
Then new weapons and abilities are added because a few people are getting "bored" with the game(adding new mechanics is the opposite of balancing a game. This is exactly the same thing people were complaining about during the beta of NS2, where it should be natural to add new stuff to the game).
- Lots are in protest and some even stopped playing altogether from such massive changes.
But the few ones at the top in the internal chat were bored, so they decided to form the game into their own direction. That had nothing at all to do with balance, only with the stagnation and boredom of the top division.
Legitimate question for swalk and co: Do you think everyone should play with waypoints on?
Surely, by your logic, turning it off gives the player an unfair advantage of not having a giant blue circle with white text underneath appear on the screen and their audio obscured by the "build structure at waypoint" every time they walk into a room with an unbuilt structure.
Legitimate question for swalk and co: Do you think everyone should play with waypoints on?
Surely, by your logic, turning it off gives the player an unfair advantage of not having a giant blue circle with white text underneath appear on the screen and their audio obscured by the "build structure at waypoint" every time they walk into a room with an unbuilt structure.
No, I don't think so. In competetive play, waypoints are not really used anyway, except for rarely pointing out a lifeform egg in the hive. And as far as I remember, the waypoints are transparent and don't really block your vision in the same manner as the viewmodels. I think the waypoints go into the category of HUD modifications, which I think are okay. It doesn't really give you any advantage to have your information shown in another way or not shown at all. Removing your viewmodels gives makes you able to see the 4/5th of the screen being blocked when biting. That is on the other hand a significant advantage.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Why are we debating if viewmodels yes/no are bad?
If its not allowed do not change it. Noone can use it.
If it is allowed, change it and everyone CAN use it. I personally will not, but I have the option and therefore as much chance as anyone else?
Why are we debating if viewmodels yes/no are bad?
If its not allowed do not change it. Noone can use it.
If it is allowed, change it and everyone CAN use it. I personally will not, but I have the option and therefore as much chance as anyone else?
If you actually bothered to read and understand the arguments put in front of you, I'm sure you would understand. But anyway, let me also explain it to you personally.
The argument you put ahead is basicly saying that ANYTHING is okay if it is just applied to the ruleset of the league. First of all, that is a really bad logic when you strive to have a levelled playing field. Mods/scripts that have inherit advantages should ALWAYS be banned, like modifying models(whitewalls, pink skulks, removing viewmodels). Such mods give players an edge over others, which destroys the levelled playing field. With your logic we might as well also allow whitewalls and pink skulks. That ideology is bad for competetive play, because it takes away potential skill of working around the vanilla mechanics of visual obscurity, in this case.
The funny(not really funny, actually pretty serious) thing is that it says nowhere in the rules that it is allowed to actually disable your viewmodels. It actually says the exact opposite, prohibiting changing your models, which obviously includes viewmodels. It was never announced or discussed publicly on the leagues homepage(by far the majority of the players don't even come to this UWE forum). In other words, this was an internal and silent decision meant to please a few specific players that only a few people knew about because of word-of-mouth. On top of that, one of the strongest advocates for it admitted to have been breaking the rules and have been using macros to get an advantage earlier in the league. That only stands to show his opinion when it comes to advantages and cheating. If he can get an advantage of any kind, at any means and any cost, it's okay. Such a person should not be listened to when dealing with things like this. He was even given a free pass and a stamp of approval from the head admin. Pretty absurd, but all fact.
removing view models doesn't break the fundamentals of ns2 or any other game for that matter. Lets look at the bigger issues here.
- 60hz monitors vs 144hz monitors. I suggest ENSL either ban all using 60hz or 144hz so its fair.
- Ban anyone using 100% digital vibrance or ban anyone not using it. Once again ENSL can ban them.
- Remove trademark from ns2.
- Max fps at 60FPS. It's completely unfair that some rich bastard can have more FPS then me. Therefore thats an advantage and needs to be removed.
- Ban anyone that has over 40 ping. It's unfair for someone to have a higher or lower ping then 40.
- Ban anyone with a benq monitor. As they can see in dark corners and I can not. That is UN FUCKING FAIR!!!!
See now, i have made a list of unfair factors that you guys can whinge & decide rather than continue to banter like 12 year olds over the dumbest fucking topic in history.
I have been a nice person today (unusual compared to previous posts) pls avoid snipping & awesome my post.
Stay tuned for the next episode of UN FUCKING FAIR!!! Hosted by nezzA
Thank you,
Your friendly wallhacker from Australia
nezzA
Some of the other stupid arguments like; "Aim doesn't get better by removing viewmodels" - EXACTLY, you are correct in this claim! BUT, in reality aim doesn't have anything to do with this and I find it hilarious that it is even used as an argument to have this implemented/not removed from the league.
However, giving you a wider view when attacking as a skulk/lerk, you will have a MUCH easier time to keep track of your opponent(that doesn't nessesarily mean keeping your aim DIRECTLY at your opponent, but simply keeping them in your viewable part of the screen). Again; THIS is the advantage gained from removing viewmodels. It will most likely not be evident at the highest level where aim is expected to be near-flawless.
So you're saying that being able to see the marine in my screen will improve my tracking. If my tracking improved, it would make sense that my accuracy would, too. Since I can see him and track him I should be able to bite/spike/whatever him.
When I tried it, that wasn't the case for me. Accuracy stayed within the same range. Others in this thread have shared the exact same experience. I'm no top level player. I commanded a div 2 team but probably only shoot at div 2-3 level. If this was such an advantage for lower level players, why doesn't a baddie like me find any great accuracy advantages?
Quake or ANY of the other mentioned games does NOT have viewmodels that block 4/5ths(THE MAJORITY) of your screen. It is litterally stupid to make such a comparison, NONE of those games have the nowhere near the same viewmodel mechanics as NS2.
You say all of this like it was purposefully designed that "the skulk bite must take up 80% of the screen". I am not sure where you are pulling that from. I've read the high level design docs from UWE and didn't find anything like that. I'll have to find them again and double check. Regardless, you have zero proof that this was something that was intentionally done just to block the screen. How do you know it wasn't for immersion purposes? Art purposes?
If you are going to spout at everyone else that they need proof to back up the things that they are saying, you should really set the example and do so yourself.
The fact that alot more use the viewmodels than not, doesn't surprice me at all. Some people are just too stupid to see the advantages of certain things and trust the word of "high level players" waaaay too much. Others simply don't like to modify their game to gain advantages. This fact is not really any form of proof that this is not an advantage or that it is okay to have it in the league. In fact I would use it as an argument to say; why do we allow this obvious advantage to a clear minority of people who will take use of it?
I like how you continually call people who think view models are a bad thing stupid. Then you go on to call people who think viewmodels are good stupid. Awesome.
I prefer view models on. I've tried it off. I had more trouble timing my bites/swipes. I'd sometimes fatfinger a key and wouldn't be sure what I had out (gorge particularly). That was my biggest problem. I appreciated how sleek it felt, but as I didn't have any noticeable increase in accuracy, I didn't feel it was worthwhile. Personally? I don't have problems tracking marines with view models on. As skulk, it doesn't completely close the mouth. You can still see them. So there was no great tracking increase. I knew where the marine was view models on or off.
It's ridiculous to think that players are not turning view models off to "modify their game to gain advantages". In NS2, if something is OP, it gets all sorts of abused. There are very few people who would be noble enough to think that it's a massive advantage and not use it.
And since it is an option and not something that is enforced on everyone, these options only give advantages to specific players, which destroys the level playing field.
So should custom crosshairs be banned? Or the minimal UI? What about certain brightness/gamma settings or refresh rates of monitors? What about resolution? I turn my in-game music off so that I can always hear footsteps. That's an advantage. These are all options that are not enforced. Do you see what a ridiculous argument it turns into?
The league should cater to ALL levels of play, as per the mission statement. But that part of the mission statement seems to have been practicly ignored since I left NSL.
I completely disagree. I see the internal balance chat that goes on. When changes were discussed, it was not just premier level. It is discussed extensively if it will affect the lower divisions and how. When players bring up issues that only really affect the lower levels of play, it gets just as much time and attention as other problems. Things have been adjusted purely because the lower level players feel that they need something changed. Just because you are clueless to it doesn't mean it does not happen. Believe it or not, Swalk, the world actually still functions and exists even when you are not part of it.
I have found you to be extremely insulting through your entire post. Not just to the people who have argued against you in this thread, but anyone who has any ideas at all that differ from your own. If you actually want anyone to take you seriously, name calling and rudeness is not the way to do it.
Le;gitimate question for swalk and co: Do you think everyone should play with waypoints on?
Surely, by your logic, turning it off gives the player an unfair advantage of not having a giant blue circle with white text underneath appear on the screen and their audio obscured by the "build structure at waypoint" every time they walk into a room with an unbuilt structure.
removing view models doesn't break the fundamentals of ns2 or any other game for that matter. Lets look at the bigger issues here.
- 60hz monitors vs 144hz monitors. I suggest ENSL either ban all using 60hz or 144hz so its fair.
- Ban anyone using 100% digital vibrance or ban anyone not using it. Once again ENSL can ban them.
- Remove trademark from ns2.
- Max fps at 60FPS. It's completely unfair that some rich bastard can have more FPS then me. Therefore thats an advantage and needs to be removed.
- Ban anyone that has over 40 ping. It's unfair for someone to have a higher or lower ping then 40.
- Ban anyone with a benq monitor. As they can see in dark corners and I can not. That is UN FUCKING FAIR!!!!
See now, i have made a list of unfair factors that you guys can whinge & decide rather than continue to banter like 12 year olds over the dumbest fucking topic in history.
I have been a nice person today (unusual compared to previous posts) pls avoid snipping & awesome my post.
Stay tuned for the next episode of UN FUCKING FAIR!!! Hosted by nezzA
Thank you,
Your friendly wallhacker from Australia
nezzA
When I played competitive as serious as I ciuld I had 39 fps and 20 or less or in fights. Shut up
removing view models doesn't break the fundamentals of ns2 or any other game for that matter. Lets look at the bigger issues here.
- 60hz monitors vs 144hz monitors. I suggest ENSL either ban all using 60hz or 144hz so its fair.
- Ban anyone using 100% digital vibrance or ban anyone not using it. Once again ENSL can ban them.
- Remove trademark from ns2.
- Max fps at 60FPS. It's completely unfair that some rich bastard can have more FPS then me. Therefore thats an advantage and needs to be removed.
- Ban anyone that has over 40 ping. It's unfair for someone to have a higher or lower ping then 40.
- Ban anyone with a benq monitor. As they can see in dark corners and I can not. That is UN FUCKING FAIR!!!!
See now, i have made a list of unfair factors that you guys can whinge & decide rather than continue to banter like 12 year olds over the dumbest fucking topic in history.
I have been a nice person today (unusual compared to previous posts) pls avoid snipping & awesome my post.
Stay tuned for the next episode of UN FUCKING FAIR!!! Hosted by nezzA
Thank you,
Your friendly wallhacker from Australia
nezzA
When I played competitive as serious as I ciuld I had 39 fps and 20 or less or in fights. Shut up
Seriously, if your opinion wasn't void before (pointing at the OP), it is definitely now. What a terrible fucking post.
In other words, this was an internal and silent decision meant to please a few specific players that only a few people knew about because of word-of-mouth.
At least, now that the players you're referring to do not play anymore the game with the break out of the Premium division, it should be fine...
Anyway, watching at how far this thread is gone, it'd require a pretty huge cleaning up to make it a bit understandable to the new incomers that would like to participate to this debate. Which is not going to be easy thing, people from both sides stand the same arguments from the outset and these arguments now stretch to multiple pages. Although debating is an awesome thing, no matter what it is about, this thread has almost reached a point of no return. Even if we cannot define the start of this thread as helpful and moving forward, it is now completely pointless. Hence I do not attempt to post any other arguments in here but only this "no sense?" message.
Call me back once people finally figured out the reasons, downsides, advantages that the other side argues even if they do not agree. Then, this discussion might start again. Till that moment, I'm gonna enjoy the fight between Swalk's army and Decoy's (sorry, you wrote the biggest messages in favor of approving view models option). By the way, reading more carefully the thread, it sounds that you guys are all in love toward each other, you could easily make a such thrilling post about anything else according to the feeling you're expressing here.
In other words, this was an internal and silent decision meant to please a few specific players that only a few people knew about because of word-of-mouth.
At least, now that the players you're referring to do not play anymore the game with the break out of the Premium division, it should be fine...
Is that supposed to be some kind of comfort? We are still left with the mess these people made.
If they don't even play anymore, why do NSL still allow people to use something THEY got implemented, for their own personal agendas, that is even in DIRECT violation of the official ruleset? Also known as "modifying models" which includes viewmodels. This is totally out of whack and absurd, how can this even be happening? Is there no common sense left in the leadership? I'd like to see an offical stance on this from @Zefram. But looking through the thread, it seems he simply supports the ones that support his decision(even if they directly admit to cheating) and don't really have anything to say for himself as for why or HOW this got implemented into the league(SILENTLY). In the end, it was his decision to implement it and in this manner.
Looking at the current ruleset, it is still prohibited(illegal) to remove your viewmodels(modifying any kind of model), yet we are sitting here discussing why it was allowed and if it was a good idea. Excuse me, but something like this should not happen in any league that call itself a competetive league. It is shameful.
No, as it clearly says in my post, keeping track of the movement of your target and aiming at your target is NOT the same thing...... Removing them won't magically make you aim better, still it is a significant advantage to be able to see things that would otherwise be out of your vision.
So... it's a significant advantage that has no calculable changes? If your accuracy is still trash and you still can't hit the marine that you can see, why does it matter if you can/can't see him? If it was such an advantage, there should be changes that have data to back them up. If it's not making any impact on the game, why does it matter?
I've awnsered this before in this topic. It was made this way, therefore it is designed to be this way. It does not have to be in any document to be proved. Just look at the vanilla game.
If that's the logic that you're going to use, we should revert every change that the CDT has made. After all, the game was made that way before the CDT existed. Also keep in mind that a huge portion of quality of life changes and bug fixes that are made are first in a mod (that being NS2+). Should we leave the bugs and revert the QoL changes because it the game was initially made that way? After all, these changes were in a mod first, and mods are clearly of the devil.
Yes, you are a part of that internal chat. It is known.
Actually, Swalk, no, I'm not part of it. I just have access to the channel as I helped set it up under the UWE group. I typically observe only. I'm not part of the team and have 0 desire to be.
As for Herakles and his admittance of using macros? It's absolutely absurd that you are trying to shame Zefram for that. You were the league admin, you should have taken care of it. Do not try to pass the responsibility off to Zefram now. Herakles said that he had used a macro before whatever patch it was that put the delay on the pistol. No admittance to using any macros now. It would be ridiculous to ban him for it years later. I'm sure the admins/refs will keep an eye on Herakles in the future.
I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to respond to you. You just regurgitate your opinion that it's terrible without any data to back it up. It's not worth it. This is why most everyone who started trying to talk to you about it in the beginning of this thread hasn't thrown away any more of their time. Good luck to you.
So... it's a significant advantage that has no calculable changes? If your accuracy is still trash and you still can't hit the marine that you can see, why does it matter if you can/can't see him? If it was such an advantage, there should be changes that have data to back them up. If it's not making any impact on the game, why does it matter?
Yes it is a significant advantage, exactly like pink skulks and whitewalls are significant advantages. You get much better vision, even if it doesn't nessesarily improve your accuracy. Both pink skulks and whitewalls are extremely prohibited, actually ALL model-changes(that INCLUDES viewmodels) are prohibited as per the rules. I am still baffled by the way this has been implemented into the league(no word about it on the league homepage, not even mentioned in the current rules). The worst thing is that this is not even being considered as a problem or replied to, it is just being ignored. It is a major contradiction.
If that's the logic that you're going to use, we should revert every change that the CDT has made. After all, the game was made that way before the CDT existed. Also keep in mind that a huge portion of quality of life changes and bug fixes that are made are first in a mod (that being NS2+). Should we leave the bugs and revert the QoL changes because it the game was initially made that way? After all, these changes were in a mod first, and mods are clearly of the devil.
Nice way to try and modify my logic, mods in themselves are not inheritly bad. Fixing bugs and adding quality of life options are great assets to the community. The thing is, that removing viewmodels is simply not a quality of life option, just like pink skulks and whitewalls are not quality of life options. These three modifications all give you better vision, which is a clear advantage.
Actually, Swalk, no, I'm not part of it. I just have access to the channel as I helped set it up under the UWE group. I typically observe only. I'm not part of the team and have 0 desire to be.
As for Herakles and his admittance of using macros? It's absolutely absurd that you are trying to shame Zefram for that. You were the league admin, you should have taken care of it. Do not try to pass the responsibility off to Zefram now. Herakles said that he had used a macro before whatever patch it was that put the delay on the pistol. No admittance to using any macros now. It would be ridiculous to ban him for it years later. I'm sure the admins/refs will keep an eye on Herakles in the future.
I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to respond to you. You just regurgitate your opinion that it's terrible without any data to back it up. It's not worth it. This is why most everyone who started trying to talk to you about it in the beginning of this thread hasn't thrown away any more of their time. Good luck to you.
You have access, so you are a part of it. That you refrain from participating in debates doesn't really change that fact. You know what is going on and if you don't do anything about it, you simply accept what is going on.
The difference between me and Zefram in this case is the fact of having knowlegde of the case. I did not know that Herakles was using macros, otherwise he would have gotten a punishment back then, I simply never got any reports from any referee or team complaining about him and he only just admitted to it now. Zefram reads Herakles post and gives it an "Awesome" - simply because Herakles supports Zefram decision(no wonder, Herakles was the strongest advocate for it) and then goes ahead and ignores the fact that Herakles admits to cheating.
It is in no way silly or ridiculous to punish people for their past crimes, you see that in the real world too. They did the crime, so just because a bit of time went by before it was discovered, should they not be punished in the same manner as everyone else?
Listen here, I provided plenty of data to back up my claims. Just look for yourself, I even took a screenshot to show exactly how much of the screen is covered by the viewmodels, though that should be obvious to everyone who got eyeballs. No other data than the fact that the viewmodel covers 4/5ths of your screen when attacking, is needed. You are able to see about 500% more than others(the moment you attack as skulk) if you remove viewmodels. That should be data enough to prove that this is an advantage. Accuracy data does not have anything to do with viewmodels, AT ALL. I don't know why you keep assuming that, maybe because you blindly believe anything that comes from the mouths of "top" players? When in fact, most of the "top" players of NS2 are nowhere near actual top professional levels in other games and that fact have simply been used in an attempt to falsify the advantage gained by the immense extra vision gained from removing the viewmodels. The strongest advocate for this(herakles) probably knew this beforehand and used it to persuade others into thinking that removing viewmodels is harmless. He knows his way around these murky waters and he doesn't care at all for fair play(he admitted to previously cheating).
Read and understand this argument: Pink skulks and whitewalls do not increase your accuracy either, they only help you see your target easier. It is EXACTLY the same thing with removing viewmodels. None of these mods should be allowed as they provide obvious advantages, by removing visual obscurity, to being able to spot and keep track of your targets.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2014
Nice counter-argument to the actual argument against viewmodels that I put in front of you. *sarcasm*
You don't even try to deny that removing viewmodels is no different from pink skulks and whitewalls. I suspect that it might be because you know that I am correct and that you don't like to side with me.
The only official stance there is from Zefram on Herakles admitting to cheating is that he thinks it is "Awesome". *snip* Remember what I said about being rude?
What I actually wanted from Zefram, was an official stance on the contradiction of why viewmodels are okay to modify, while it clearly says in the rules that it is prohibited. And the fact that it was not discussed or even announced anywhere on the league site. It was silently implemented to please a few people, who are completely untrustworthy when it comes to fair play.
The clause in the rules that says it is illegal to change models clearly has some exceptions. You're allowed to use whatever model of skulk you want (vanilla, shadow, albino) or what badge you wear (titus, snails, etc). And now, you're also allowed to enable or disable your view model. The rule seems to be intended to stop people from making unauthorized model changes. If view model changes are authorized, then the rule doesn't apply. The argument against removing view models from a rules perspective just doesn't hold water.
I can understand your argument that it changes the game. Removing the gun and the teeth surely do something. Pros: it gives more vision (easier to aim), it removes visual clutter (easier to aim). Cons: removes visual cues like ammo counter/bite timer (makes it harder to play). Does this give someone an advantage? I don't really think so. It certainly doesn't give anyone a major advantage or we'd see everyone use it. They don't. So I'm more inclined to think of this as a QOL option (like different options for Alien Vision or Waypoints or NSL vs Regular lights, etc).
That 4/5ths of the screen shit you've got going on is pretty retarded. Your screenshot is a joke.
First of all, it happens for a fraction of a second, so it's not as impactful as you make it out to be, because in your posts you insist on it like it's like that 90% of the time, when in reality it's not even meaningful, I'm not gonna pull a percentage out of my ass, but it's not meaningful. Now, with alien vision, marines are highlighted. To add to this, if the marine is parasited you see him through the viewmodel, meaning you can still track him during those precious miliseconds where the jaw is "fully" closed!
Not that it matters, because if you're on a local server, join aliens and spam bites you'll see that it impacts next to nothing in terms of visiblity. But if you time a screenshot so the jaw is closed, no alien vision, no parasites, and then say 4/5ths instead of something more accurate like 2/3rds, well, of course it sounds much worse. This amazing "vision obscuring" animation that you pretend exists, should not impact your tracking or ability to navigate, since it doesn't last long enough to make tracking harder, it lasts ONE FRAME. Seriously.
For the most part, you should still "lose track" of a marine while biting, viewmodels or not, people lose track of their target because you are so close to it that any good dodge will make him be outside of your FOV... And anyone that has played NS2 will know this. Unless you want to lie to yourself, the reason you miss bites is not the viewmodel.
And stop pretending seeing through vision obscuring stuff is a skill. There's no skill in having eyeballs. And please, stop trying to shit all over the NSL just because you're not running it, it looks so childish. We've been better off since.
Did I say how little screen time your stupid screenshot actually has? Because it's really ridiculous. Almost desperate.
The clause in the rules that says it is illegal to change models clearly has some exceptions. You're allowed to use whatever model of skulk you want (vanilla, shadow, albino) or what badge you wear (titus, snails, etc). And now, you're also allowed to enable or disable your view model. The rule seems to be intended to stop people from making unauthorized model changes. If view model changes are authorized, then the rule doesn't apply. The argument against removing view models from a rules perspective just doesn't hold water.
I can understand your argument that it changes the game. Removing the gun and the teeth surely do something. Pros: it gives more vision (easier to aim), it removes visual clutter (easier to aim). Cons: removes visual cues like ammo counter/bite timer (makes it harder to play). Does this give someone an advantage? I don't really think so. It certainly doesn't give anyone a major advantage or we'd see everyone use it. They don't. So I'm more inclined to think of this as a QOL option (like different options for Alien Vision or Waypoints or NSL vs Regular lights, etc).
None of the official skins are changes to models as far as I'm aware.
The clause in the rules that says it is illegal to change models clearly has some exceptions. You're allowed to use whatever model of skulk you want (vanilla, shadow, albino) or what badge you wear (titus, snails, etc). And now, you're also allowed to enable or disable your view model. The rule seems to be intended to stop people from making unauthorized model changes. If view model changes are authorized, then the rule doesn't apply. The argument against removing view models from a rules perspective just doesn't hold water.
I can understand your argument that it changes the game. Removing the gun and the teeth surely do something. Pros: it gives more vision (easier to aim), it removes visual clutter (easier to aim). Cons: removes visual cues like ammo counter/bite timer (makes it harder to play). Does this give someone an advantage? I don't really think so. It certainly doesn't give anyone a major advantage or we'd see everyone use it. They don't. So I'm more inclined to think of this as a QOL option (like different options for Alien Vision or Waypoints or NSL vs Regular lights, etc).
None of the official skins are changes to models as far as I'm aware.
Shadow alien skins and assault marine skins all are different models.
Edit: No changes to the hitbox, but when they were added it was another model that had to be loaded taking more memory. The kodiak and reapers are just skins, simply a new texture.
Comments
So you're saying that being able to see the marine in my screen will improve my tracking. If my tracking improved, it would make sense that my accuracy would, too. Since I can see him and track him I should be able to bite/spike/whatever him.
When I tried it, that wasn't the case for me. Accuracy stayed within the same range. Others in this thread have shared the exact same experience. I'm no top level player. I commanded a div 2 team but probably only shoot at div 2-3 level. If this was such an advantage for lower level players, why doesn't a baddie like me find any great accuracy advantages?
You say all of this like it was purposefully designed that "the skulk bite must take up 80% of the screen". I am not sure where you are pulling that from. I've read the high level design docs from UWE and didn't find anything like that. I'll have to find them again and double check. Regardless, you have zero proof that this was something that was intentionally done just to block the screen. How do you know it wasn't for immersion purposes? Art purposes?
If you are going to spout at everyone else that they need proof to back up the things that they are saying, you should really set the example and do so yourself.
I like how you continually call people who think view models are a bad thing stupid. Then you go on to call people who think viewmodels are good stupid. Awesome.
I prefer view models on. I've tried it off. I had more trouble timing my bites/swipes. I'd sometimes fatfinger a key and wouldn't be sure what I had out (gorge particularly). That was my biggest problem. I appreciated how sleek it felt, but as I didn't have any noticeable increase in accuracy, I didn't feel it was worthwhile. Personally? I don't have problems tracking marines with view models on. As skulk, it doesn't completely close the mouth. You can still see them. So there was no great tracking increase. I knew where the marine was view models on or off.
It's ridiculous to think that players are not turning view models off to "modify their game to gain advantages". In NS2, if something is OP, it gets all sorts of abused. There are very few people who would be noble enough to think that it's a massive advantage and not use it.
So should custom crosshairs be banned? Or the minimal UI? What about certain brightness/gamma settings or refresh rates of monitors? What about resolution? I turn my in-game music off so that I can always hear footsteps. That's an advantage. These are all options that are not enforced. Do you see what a ridiculous argument it turns into?
I completely disagree. I see the internal balance chat that goes on. When changes were discussed, it was not just premier level. It is discussed extensively if it will affect the lower divisions and how. When players bring up issues that only really affect the lower levels of play, it gets just as much time and attention as other problems. Things have been adjusted purely because the lower level players feel that they need something changed. Just because you are clueless to it doesn't mean it does not happen. Believe it or not, Swalk, the world actually still functions and exists even when you are not part of it.
I have found you to be extremely insulting through your entire post. Not just to the people who have argued against you in this thread, but anyone who has any ideas at all that differ from your own. If you actually want anyone to take you seriously, name calling and rudeness is not the way to do it.
EDIT: I should also refresh this page more often, I missed Decoy's message. My own message still counts though.
The viewmodel plays the part of doing many things, not just ONE thing. Not sure where you picked that up, viewmodels are not inheritly bad or good. But they have alot of functions in this game. I think it is stupid to remove something that blocks the majority of your view(because it requires a decent amount of skill to work around that visual blockade) and those that think that it is okay to remove something that blocks most of your view. In reality there is not much "timing" to bite/swipes, both are instantanious and will connect if you have your bite/swipe hitbox cone in range of your target. There is really only the interval of when you can do the second bite/swipe, which is portrayed by the sound in your headset and your general sense of time itself.
Guess you are just able to always keep marines in 1/5th of your screen in hectec melee combat then, lots of players are not able to do this. What about them? Yeah I see what you modified my argument into by comparing the removal of viewmodels with crosshairs. A better comparison would be to compare removal of viewmodels and the addition of whitewalls. Those modifications are much more similar, they both give you alot better vision.
Lots of these things you mention are practically impossible to enforce and some even depend on the limits of your monitor/system, like gamma, refresh rates, resolution. And on top of that, they don't give vision to the same extend that removing viewmodels do. At maximum, they make it easier for you to see what you can already see. Removing viewmodels makes you able to see something you otherwise wouldn't have been able to see.
It is about WHERE to draw that line in the sand. Right now we've drawn the line where viewmodels are okay. But when looking at what kind of modification that is, you quickly find out that whitewalls and pink skulks are in the same category. Yes, you are a part of that internal chat. It is known.
Just try reading this thread, the people that have access to this chat only seem to have the top division in mind in this subject. Comparing accuracy(which have no direct connection to keeping track of a target, ie. knowing where your target is) and other arguments which basicly have nothing to do with the viewmodels. Sorry if I come across as insulting, but I really think it is stupid to allow such a thing as this. We are swimming in the same pond as whitewalls and pink skulks, hence why it aggrevates me. Neither whitewalls or pink skulks increase your accuracy, they just make it easier to see your target. Exactly the same as removing viewmodels.
I would also prefer not to have to call anyone out, but I am simply stating how things look from my point of view and I do not like what I see. I see the league I started, degrading in fairness and favoritizing specific levels of play.
Funny that you say that things have been adjusted to accomodate the lower divisions, when did that ever happen? From what I've seen on the few balance mod threads on ensl and most other decisions that have been made, they seem to favor the ones playing in the top division/those in the internal chat. Not to mention this thread.
Everyone agreed that the game was stale and unbalanced. "Let's make a balance mod!" (the game was not really being worked on anymore)
- Practically everyone agreed
Then new weapons and abilities are added because a few people are getting "bored" with the game(adding new mechanics is the opposite of balancing a game. This is exactly the same thing people were complaining about during the beta of NS2, where it should be natural to add new stuff to the game).
- Lots are in protest and some even stopped playing altogether from such massive changes.
But the few ones at the top in the internal chat were bored, so they decided to form the game into their own direction. That had nothing at all to do with balance, only with the stagnation and boredom of the top division.
Surely, by your logic, turning it off gives the player an unfair advantage of not having a giant blue circle with white text underneath appear on the screen and their audio obscured by the "build structure at waypoint" every time they walk into a room with an unbuilt structure.
If its not allowed do not change it. Noone can use it.
If it is allowed, change it and everyone CAN use it. I personally will not, but I have the option and therefore as much chance as anyone else?
The argument you put ahead is basicly saying that ANYTHING is okay if it is just applied to the ruleset of the league. First of all, that is a really bad logic when you strive to have a levelled playing field. Mods/scripts that have inherit advantages should ALWAYS be banned, like modifying models(whitewalls, pink skulks, removing viewmodels). Such mods give players an edge over others, which destroys the levelled playing field. With your logic we might as well also allow whitewalls and pink skulks. That ideology is bad for competetive play, because it takes away potential skill of working around the vanilla mechanics of visual obscurity, in this case.
The funny(not really funny, actually pretty serious) thing is that it says nowhere in the rules that it is allowed to actually disable your viewmodels. It actually says the exact opposite, prohibiting changing your models, which obviously includes viewmodels. It was never announced or discussed publicly on the leagues homepage(by far the majority of the players don't even come to this UWE forum). In other words, this was an internal and silent decision meant to please a few specific players that only a few people knew about because of word-of-mouth. On top of that, one of the strongest advocates for it admitted to have been breaking the rules and have been using macros to get an advantage earlier in the league. That only stands to show his opinion when it comes to advantages and cheating. If he can get an advantage of any kind, at any means and any cost, it's okay. Such a person should not be listened to when dealing with things like this. He was even given a free pass and a stamp of approval from the head admin. Pretty absurd, but all fact.
removing view models doesn't break the fundamentals of ns2 or any other game for that matter. Lets look at the bigger issues here.
- 60hz monitors vs 144hz monitors. I suggest ENSL either ban all using 60hz or 144hz so its fair.
- Ban anyone using 100% digital vibrance or ban anyone not using it. Once again ENSL can ban them.
- Remove trademark from ns2.
- Max fps at 60FPS. It's completely unfair that some rich bastard can have more FPS then me. Therefore thats an advantage and needs to be removed.
- Ban anyone that has over 40 ping. It's unfair for someone to have a higher or lower ping then 40.
- Ban anyone with a benq monitor. As they can see in dark corners and I can not. That is UN FUCKING FAIR!!!!
See now, i have made a list of unfair factors that you guys can whinge & decide rather than continue to banter like 12 year olds over the dumbest fucking topic in history.
I have been a nice person today (unusual compared to previous posts) pls avoid snipping & awesome my post.
Stay tuned for the next episode of UN FUCKING FAIR!!! Hosted by nezzA
Thank you,
Your friendly wallhacker from Australia
nezzA
Just lock the thread. Consider s job well done
I giggled
When I played competitive as serious as I ciuld I had 39 fps and 20 or less or in fights. Shut up
Seriously, if your opinion wasn't void before (pointing at the OP), it is definitely now. What a terrible fucking post.
At least, now that the players you're referring to do not play anymore the game with the break out of the Premium division, it should be fine...
Anyway, watching at how far this thread is gone, it'd require a pretty huge cleaning up to make it a bit understandable to the new incomers that would like to participate to this debate. Which is not going to be easy thing, people from both sides stand the same arguments from the outset and these arguments now stretch to multiple pages. Although debating is an awesome thing, no matter what it is about, this thread has almost reached a point of no return. Even if we cannot define the start of this thread as helpful and moving forward, it is now completely pointless. Hence I do not attempt to post any other arguments in here but only this "no sense?" message.
Call me back once people finally figured out the reasons, downsides, advantages that the other side argues even if they do not agree. Then, this discussion might start again. Till that moment, I'm gonna enjoy the fight between Swalk's army and Decoy's (sorry, you wrote the biggest messages in favor of approving view models option). By the way, reading more carefully the thread, it sounds that you guys are all in love toward each other, you could easily make a such thrilling post about anything else according to the feeling you're expressing here.
Have nice holidays and happy new year though.
If they don't even play anymore, why do NSL still allow people to use something THEY got implemented, for their own personal agendas, that is even in DIRECT violation of the official ruleset? Also known as "modifying models" which includes viewmodels. This is totally out of whack and absurd, how can this even be happening? Is there no common sense left in the leadership? I'd like to see an offical stance on this from @Zefram. But looking through the thread, it seems he simply supports the ones that support his decision(even if they directly admit to cheating) and don't really have anything to say for himself as for why or HOW this got implemented into the league(SILENTLY). In the end, it was his decision to implement it and in this manner.
Looking at the current ruleset, it is still prohibited(illegal) to remove your viewmodels(modifying any kind of model), yet we are sitting here discussing why it was allowed and if it was a good idea. Excuse me, but something like this should not happen in any league that call itself a competetive league. It is shameful.
That was some kind of humor...
If that's the logic that you're going to use, we should revert every change that the CDT has made. After all, the game was made that way before the CDT existed. Also keep in mind that a huge portion of quality of life changes and bug fixes that are made are first in a mod (that being NS2+). Should we leave the bugs and revert the QoL changes because it the game was initially made that way? After all, these changes were in a mod first, and mods are clearly of the devil.
Actually, Swalk, no, I'm not part of it. I just have access to the channel as I helped set it up under the UWE group. I typically observe only. I'm not part of the team and have 0 desire to be.
As for Herakles and his admittance of using macros? It's absolutely absurd that you are trying to shame Zefram for that. You were the league admin, you should have taken care of it. Do not try to pass the responsibility off to Zefram now. Herakles said that he had used a macro before whatever patch it was that put the delay on the pistol. No admittance to using any macros now. It would be ridiculous to ban him for it years later. I'm sure the admins/refs will keep an eye on Herakles in the future.
I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to respond to you. You just regurgitate your opinion that it's terrible without any data to back it up. It's not worth it. This is why most everyone who started trying to talk to you about it in the beginning of this thread hasn't thrown away any more of their time. Good luck to you.
The difference between me and Zefram in this case is the fact of having knowlegde of the case. I did not know that Herakles was using macros, otherwise he would have gotten a punishment back then, I simply never got any reports from any referee or team complaining about him and he only just admitted to it now. Zefram reads Herakles post and gives it an "Awesome" - simply because Herakles supports Zefram decision(no wonder, Herakles was the strongest advocate for it) and then goes ahead and ignores the fact that Herakles admits to cheating.
It is in no way silly or ridiculous to punish people for their past crimes, you see that in the real world too. They did the crime, so just because a bit of time went by before it was discovered, should they not be punished in the same manner as everyone else?
Listen here, I provided plenty of data to back up my claims. Just look for yourself, I even took a screenshot to show exactly how much of the screen is covered by the viewmodels, though that should be obvious to everyone who got eyeballs. No other data than the fact that the viewmodel covers 4/5ths of your screen when attacking, is needed. You are able to see about 500% more than others(the moment you attack as skulk) if you remove viewmodels. That should be data enough to prove that this is an advantage. Accuracy data does not have anything to do with viewmodels, AT ALL. I don't know why you keep assuming that, maybe because you blindly believe anything that comes from the mouths of "top" players? When in fact, most of the "top" players of NS2 are nowhere near actual top professional levels in other games and that fact have simply been used in an attempt to falsify the advantage gained by the immense extra vision gained from removing the viewmodels. The strongest advocate for this(herakles) probably knew this beforehand and used it to persuade others into thinking that removing viewmodels is harmless. He knows his way around these murky waters and he doesn't care at all for fair play(he admitted to previously cheating).
Read and understand this argument: Pink skulks and whitewalls do not increase your accuracy either, they only help you see your target easier. It is EXACTLY the same thing with removing viewmodels. None of these mods should be allowed as they provide obvious advantages, by removing visual obscurity, to being able to spot and keep track of your targets.
Clearly, that's how it works.
gg Swalk
You don't even try to deny that removing viewmodels is no different from pink skulks and whitewalls. I suspect that it might be because you know that I am correct and that you don't like to side with me.
The only official stance there is from Zefram on Herakles admitting to cheating is that he thinks it is "Awesome". *snip* Remember what I said about being rude?
What I actually wanted from Zefram, was an official stance on the contradiction of why viewmodels are okay to modify, while it clearly says in the rules that it is prohibited. And the fact that it was not discussed or even announced anywhere on the league site. It was silently implemented to please a few people, who are completely untrustworthy when it comes to fair play.
gg decoy - your arguments are the best
no re.
I can understand your argument that it changes the game. Removing the gun and the teeth surely do something. Pros: it gives more vision (easier to aim), it removes visual clutter (easier to aim). Cons: removes visual cues like ammo counter/bite timer (makes it harder to play). Does this give someone an advantage? I don't really think so. It certainly doesn't give anyone a major advantage or we'd see everyone use it. They don't. So I'm more inclined to think of this as a QOL option (like different options for Alien Vision or Waypoints or NSL vs Regular lights, etc).
First of all, it happens for a fraction of a second, so it's not as impactful as you make it out to be, because in your posts you insist on it like it's like that 90% of the time, when in reality it's not even meaningful, I'm not gonna pull a percentage out of my ass, but it's not meaningful. Now, with alien vision, marines are highlighted. To add to this, if the marine is parasited you see him through the viewmodel, meaning you can still track him during those precious miliseconds where the jaw is "fully" closed!
Not that it matters, because if you're on a local server, join aliens and spam bites you'll see that it impacts next to nothing in terms of visiblity. But if you time a screenshot so the jaw is closed, no alien vision, no parasites, and then say 4/5ths instead of something more accurate like 2/3rds, well, of course it sounds much worse. This amazing "vision obscuring" animation that you pretend exists, should not impact your tracking or ability to navigate, since it doesn't last long enough to make tracking harder, it lasts ONE FRAME. Seriously.
For the most part, you should still "lose track" of a marine while biting, viewmodels or not, people lose track of their target because you are so close to it that any good dodge will make him be outside of your FOV... And anyone that has played NS2 will know this. Unless you want to lie to yourself, the reason you miss bites is not the viewmodel.
And stop pretending seeing through vision obscuring stuff is a skill. There's no skill in having eyeballs. And please, stop trying to shit all over the NSL just because you're not running it, it looks so childish. We've been better off since.
Did I say how little screen time your stupid screenshot actually has? Because it's really ridiculous. Almost desperate.
Merry Christmas.
None of the official skins are changes to models as far as I'm aware.
Shadow alien skins and assault marine skins all are different models.
Edit: No changes to the hitbox, but when they were added it was another model that had to be loaded taking more memory. The kodiak and reapers are just skins, simply a new texture.
Wait, so then they have different hitboxes? If so I'll make another thread lol
No
So since the models don't have different hitboxes, and the hitboxes are exactly the models, the models are the same. Got it.
...right..?
*walks backwards slowly to the exit of the topic while keeping up a fake smile*
Thanks for your visit.