I think it's important to look at other successful titles that are similar to NS2 and try to extrapolate any useful data that you can. What works and what doesn't could be applied or removed in a similar fashion.
Obviously CS was also a mod like NS and has grown to be one of the most popular FPS games of all time. I think Valve did a pretty good job nailing the maximum numbers of players on a casual server.
10v10 seems to work just fine without making it super stressful on the individual (noob perhaps) but also allows certain individuals to excel and play the game somewhat like "the way it was meant to be played". Those maps are also similar in size to NS2 maps and I think that anything above 10v10 for NS2 is just a little "too casual".
Obviously this is a ballpark figure but I think supporting 32 players officially for NS2 would lead to imbalance and a less enjoyable experience for players.
Meanwhile, 5v5 (or 6v6 for NS2) is the number chosen for queuing into the organized play modes. I think it works perfectly and should be considered to be the primary mode if any system would be designed and created for NS2. (we're talking matchmaking here)
NS2 has few systems in place that actually streamline the process for the player to get into an experience that they will enjoy. Let's face it. NS has never been an easy game to get into. Insuring that a player is in an environment where they can at least have a chance at enjoying the game without getting slaughtered is a pretty huge deal.
The lack of anything more than a server browser that just gives a player a completely random experience once they choose a server is killing the player retention likely more than even performance at this stage. I have seen some remarkable rookies hop in and really pick things up fast and use the tutorial bits that are in place but I think the vast majority aren't going to be quite as quick on the learning curve.
UWE talked about creating this system nearly 2 years ago. Obviously plans change but in all honestly, if the goal is "make ns2 huge" you NEED systems that accomplish these things. It is a MUST.
@cmdrKeen, ok it would be the most minimal possible matchmaking. It would not be anything more than an enhanced shuffle system. It would not be perfect. You do not seem to be saying anything more than that. I have been arguing it is not ideal, and you admit to that so what more can I say.
How do you define ideal? If you compare it to matchmaking systems of well established games like CS:GO or LoL with tens of thousands of concurrent players, then yes, it wouldn't be ideal.
But I think my proposal is pretty good considering the realities we face (steamcharts.com/app/4920). I think a matchmaking that works as well or better than the status-quo with small player numbers, and only gets better the more players are using it, is near-ideal in the position NS2 is in.
Even though hive works on similar principles to matchmaking in games from Riot, Valve, and Blizzard there appears to be a large number of people who think hive is a failed system.
In my experience, the Force even teams resulted in pretty good teams on average. It has become pretty much standard to FET before each round on the servers I used to play at.
There was one exploit in the hive system that I encountered: You could avoid losing hive points by switching teams just before your team loses. @moultano or anyone else: Does this still work?
Allowing people to sit in a queue while playing in a server would be a start, but how would you encourage people to use this matchmaking system?
Good question. I believe if you implement it well and it works fine, people will start using it.
It works if it is:
less of a hassle than the current server browser
delivers same or better quality games
and caters to the interests of the different "customers" in NS2 (as @NotPaLaGi described); for example you might try group people with their steam friends
@cmdrKeen, ok it would be the most minimal possible matchmaking. It would not be anything more than an enhanced shuffle system. It would not be perfect. You do not seem to be saying anything more than that. I have been arguing it is not ideal, and you admit to that so what more can I say.
How do you define ideal? If you compare it to matchmaking systems of well established games like CS:GO or LoL with tens of thousands of concurrent players, then yes, it wouldn't be ideal.
But I think my proposal is pretty good considering the realities we face (steamcharts.com/app/4920). I think a matchmaking that works as well or better than the status-quo with small player numbers, and only gets better the more players are using it, is near-ideal in the position NS2 is in.
This just brings us in a circle as I have addressed all this. I defined ideal.
Even though hive works on similar principles to matchmaking in games from Riot, Valve, and Blizzard there appears to be a large number of people who think hive is a failed system.
In my experience, the Force even teams resulted in pretty good teams on average. It has become pretty much standard to FET before each round on the servers I used to play at.
I am not saying hive is bad. Hive has proven itself to be effective at balancing teams for me. Most of the time it gives good teams if the skill variance is low enough. It doesn't matter if hive is perfect. Nobody knows how many people think hive is good, but as I said it appears a lot of people think it is a failed system.
@Nordic: I think the fundamental beliefs that we disagree on are that I think that seperating the rookies from the veterans would already be a huge, maybe game-changing benefit whereas you seem to believe only a fine-grained form of matchmaking (many different skill levels who only play with their skill-"neighbors") would really have the potential to bring a change.
@Nordic: I think the fundamental beliefs that we disagree on are that I think that separating the rookies from the veterans would already be a huge, maybe game-changing benefit whereas you seem to believe only a fine-grained form of matchmaking (many different skill levels who only play with their skill-"neighbors") would really have the potential to bring a change.
No. I agree that some form of rookie gating would be beneficial. Rookies don't need veterans to learn. They learn fine on their own.
It is not really that we necessarily disagree, I just doubt what you suggest would work as well as you suggest. I also think that forced matchmaking, like nosgoths would ruin ns2 but you are not suggesting that. What you suggest would be an enhanced shuffle system which would be better but I don't think it is what people expect from a matchmaking system.
Your suggestion is good because it is realistic. The reason I respond to most posts involving matchmaking is because most of those posts want an unrealistic system.
This may be a minor issue but I just want to say that I will probably not play on UWE official servers as they were back then even with a perfect matchmaking system.
Vanilla + rubberbanding is a major turn off. Neither would I want to play in community servers with mods that I find annoying/dislike. Just something else to consider.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I agree server performance is much better, but dont kid yourself. There are still enough servers out there which could do a lot better.
Thankfully most of the big ones have all in order. (and I dont mean server size with big)
Yes the improvements to server performance in NS2 especially in the last year of work by the CDT has made a massive difference. Also lets not forget the fix for the workshop. Between being booted from servers with workshop errors and poor performance due to lack of optimization really hurt the game early on. It was not until we had people like the CDT who focused on actually improving the game vs skins and DLC that we got the stable state the game is in now. I am not sure how much longer the game would have lasted had the CDT not fixed these issues.
Now as for balanced games, I think we all seem to agree that the m-> shuffle using hive based rank has done a lot toward creating balanced matches on various servers. I think this fact highlights an important point that a matchmaking system is not really needed or justified. If the only purpose of any sort of matchmaking was to simply ensure balanced games so everyone can have fun I believe we already have this via shuffle. Now if the purpose is to somehow try to manage and control what servers can be populated by the will of UWE then no we do not currently have that system and implementing such a system would be an effective way to attempt to pick winners and losers of community servers and or just kill them all off.
Really if there is a gameplay system that needs improvement it is making it so that rookies can learn to com without as much stress. I think the <level 5 servers could help with that but I think a "game mode" could also make things interesting. For example having "rookie com servers". These servers anyone can join and play on but only rookie commanders can command. The game force shuffles the teams at the start and then only allows players with no commanding experience command. The system shuffles to ensure there is at least one qualifying player on each team to command and if there is no one who is noob enough it selects the lowest hive score player on the team to command. Such a mod or game mode could be fun for experienced players and new players looking to learn.
Another option would be to make it easy for a player to spec a commander in game. This way a noob can see the exact screen the commander does and learn from them. In this mode the noob can talk to the commander without anyone on the team hearing them. This way a noob can virtually sit next to an experienced commander and learn from what they do while being able to openly ask them questions. This mode could be supported in rookie friendly servers for example. See: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/139600/adopt-a-rookie#latest
You can spec a commander. It will show what they are looking at, but you won't see the commander GUI.
You know how in spectator, players are shown on the far left and far right of the screen. If you click on a player you will then just spectate them. If you click on a commander you will also spectate them. Since spectating is from and overhead view you do see what the commander sees.
Comments
Obviously CS was also a mod like NS and has grown to be one of the most popular FPS games of all time. I think Valve did a pretty good job nailing the maximum numbers of players on a casual server.
10v10 seems to work just fine without making it super stressful on the individual (noob perhaps) but also allows certain individuals to excel and play the game somewhat like "the way it was meant to be played". Those maps are also similar in size to NS2 maps and I think that anything above 10v10 for NS2 is just a little "too casual".
Obviously this is a ballpark figure but I think supporting 32 players officially for NS2 would lead to imbalance and a less enjoyable experience for players.
Meanwhile, 5v5 (or 6v6 for NS2) is the number chosen for queuing into the organized play modes. I think it works perfectly and should be considered to be the primary mode if any system would be designed and created for NS2. (we're talking matchmaking here)
NS2 has few systems in place that actually streamline the process for the player to get into an experience that they will enjoy. Let's face it. NS has never been an easy game to get into. Insuring that a player is in an environment where they can at least have a chance at enjoying the game without getting slaughtered is a pretty huge deal.
The lack of anything more than a server browser that just gives a player a completely random experience once they choose a server is killing the player retention likely more than even performance at this stage. I have seen some remarkable rookies hop in and really pick things up fast and use the tutorial bits that are in place but I think the vast majority aren't going to be quite as quick on the learning curve.
UWE talked about creating this system nearly 2 years ago. Obviously plans change but in all honestly, if the goal is "make ns2 huge" you NEED systems that accomplish these things. It is a MUST.
How do you define ideal? If you compare it to matchmaking systems of well established games like CS:GO or LoL with tens of thousands of concurrent players, then yes, it wouldn't be ideal.
But I think my proposal is pretty good considering the realities we face (steamcharts.com/app/4920). I think a matchmaking that works as well or better than the status-quo with small player numbers, and only gets better the more players are using it, is near-ideal in the position NS2 is in.
In my experience, the Force even teams resulted in pretty good teams on average. It has become pretty much standard to FET before each round on the servers I used to play at.
There was one exploit in the hive system that I encountered: You could avoid losing hive points by switching teams just before your team loses. @moultano or anyone else: Does this still work? Good question. I believe if you implement it well and it works fine, people will start using it.
It works if it is:
I am not saying hive is bad. Hive has proven itself to be effective at balancing teams for me. Most of the time it gives good teams if the skill variance is low enough. It doesn't matter if hive is perfect. Nobody knows how many people think hive is good, but as I said it appears a lot of people think it is a failed system.
No. I agree that some form of rookie gating would be beneficial. Rookies don't need veterans to learn. They learn fine on their own.
It is not really that we necessarily disagree, I just doubt what you suggest would work as well as you suggest. I also think that forced matchmaking, like nosgoths would ruin ns2 but you are not suggesting that. What you suggest would be an enhanced shuffle system which would be better but I don't think it is what people expect from a matchmaking system.
Your suggestion is good because it is realistic. The reason I respond to most posts involving matchmaking is because most of those posts want an unrealistic system.
Vanilla + rubberbanding is a major turn off. Neither would I want to play in community servers with mods that I find annoying/dislike. Just something else to consider.
Thankfully most of the big ones have all in order. (and I dont mean server size with big)
Now as for balanced games, I think we all seem to agree that the m-> shuffle using hive based rank has done a lot toward creating balanced matches on various servers. I think this fact highlights an important point that a matchmaking system is not really needed or justified. If the only purpose of any sort of matchmaking was to simply ensure balanced games so everyone can have fun I believe we already have this via shuffle. Now if the purpose is to somehow try to manage and control what servers can be populated by the will of UWE then no we do not currently have that system and implementing such a system would be an effective way to attempt to pick winners and losers of community servers and or just kill them all off.
Really if there is a gameplay system that needs improvement it is making it so that rookies can learn to com without as much stress. I think the <level 5 servers could help with that but I think a "game mode" could also make things interesting. For example having "rookie com servers". These servers anyone can join and play on but only rookie commanders can command. The game force shuffles the teams at the start and then only allows players with no commanding experience command. The system shuffles to ensure there is at least one qualifying player on each team to command and if there is no one who is noob enough it selects the lowest hive score player on the team to command. Such a mod or game mode could be fun for experienced players and new players looking to learn.
Another option would be to make it easy for a player to spec a commander in game. This way a noob can see the exact screen the commander does and learn from them. In this mode the noob can talk to the commander without anyone on the team hearing them. This way a noob can virtually sit next to an experienced commander and learn from what they do while being able to openly ask them questions. This mode could be supported in rookie friendly servers for example. See: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/139600/adopt-a-rookie#latest
That would help.
You know how in spectator, players are shown on the far left and far right of the screen. If you click on a player you will then just spectate them. If you click on a commander you will also spectate them. Since spectating is from and overhead view you do see what the commander sees.