Are Mods doomed with the new iterative update model?
Calego
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
@joshhh said this better than I can:
So here's a question that's been bugging me since this whole thing was announced (I'll make a new thread if its deemed necessary).
With this Iterative update model, doesn't this just spell bad news for basically every mod/mod maker?
Mods break enough with these "monolithic" updates, even when modders are given a heads up and some time to test/fix things for launch day. Someone on the CDT should confirm this, but I assume that they're talking closely to the big names in modding (the ones that aren't already on the CDT) and helping them update things before they break when patch goes live. This communication may not be visible to us but it does exist.
Given some of the "official" un-communications of late, I'm more than a little worried that when these iterative updates kick in, shits going to hit all four walls and the ceiling for mods like Shine and NS2+, not to mention all of @Wyzcrak 's TGNS mod, @Rusty 's DMD Mods, and @xDragon 's (entire competitive community's) ENSL mod and CompMod.
Regardless of your thoughts on each of those communities, those three groups alone make up a pretty significant chunk of the active and dedicated playerbase. If their stuff breaks (and breaks and breaks and breaks), they're not going to be happy.
So the big question on my mind: Does UWE realize how crucial some big mods are to the current playerbase? Do they care? And what efforts will be taken to prevent a shitstorm with these mods when their agile/lean/iterative/whateveryouwanttocallit strategy takes effect?
And even beyond the "big mods", what about the little known ones, like the NS2c, Faded, SWS, any of the other host of Balance mods out there that are already struggling to keep up with development? I seem to recall UWE wanting NS2 to be uber modder-friendly, but this quick update model only strikes me as the opposite.
Regarding the CDT/UWE Merger... obviously everyone is still confused as fck about what is actually happening. The number of nonsense blog posts regarding the matter have been astounding. Y'all need to make it clear what is actually happening...
So here's a question that's been bugging me since this whole thing was announced (I'll make a new thread if its deemed necessary).
Some context for those that might not understand the start of that question: Unknown Worlds is going to blow up the traditional NS2 development model. Any time a developer changes the game, the change propagates out to the community immediately.
The old development model went something like this: “Hypothesis > Planning > Execution > Testing > Release > Analysis > Exhaustion > Recovery > Hypothesis….” The time frame between “Hypothesis” and “Analysis” was often on the order of months. Most often, by the time the team (Unknown Worlds or, post 2014, CDT), got to the analysis stage, there was no energy for proper analysis. Hypotheses were not being tested.
The new development model forces the team to constantly test their assumptions, and prove their hypotheses. It could be abstracted as “Hypothesis > Analysis > Hypothesis…” It’s not acceptable for a developer to say “I think NS2 needs a new game mode, because [insert long, qualitative argument].” They need to say “I think NS2 needs a new game mode, I’m going to come up with a creative way to test that hypothesis.”
This change is fundamental to why this new NS2 development team exists. It exists to try something new. The old method has proven, over the course of over five years, that it is not good at making good decisions.
To the specific concerns: We need to carefully test the assumptions being made. Without diving in to each one, let’s take “there are likely to be more bugs” as an example. What evidence is there for this? What secondary assumptions are being made? Have other sources of evidence been considered? This assumption, and the others, are ingrained in NS2 community culture. They are not necessarily true. We should all relish the opportunity to challenge them.
With this Iterative update model, doesn't this just spell bad news for basically every mod/mod maker?
Mods break enough with these "monolithic" updates, even when modders are given a heads up and some time to test/fix things for launch day. Someone on the CDT should confirm this, but I assume that they're talking closely to the big names in modding (the ones that aren't already on the CDT) and helping them update things before they break when patch goes live. This communication may not be visible to us but it does exist.
Given some of the "official" un-communications of late, I'm more than a little worried that when these iterative updates kick in, shits going to hit all four walls and the ceiling for mods like Shine and NS2+, not to mention all of @Wyzcrak 's TGNS mod, @Rusty 's DMD Mods, and @xDragon 's (entire competitive community's) ENSL mod and CompMod.
Regardless of your thoughts on each of those communities, those three groups alone make up a pretty significant chunk of the active and dedicated playerbase. If their stuff breaks (and breaks and breaks and breaks), they're not going to be happy.
So the big question on my mind: Does UWE realize how crucial some big mods are to the current playerbase? Do they care? And what efforts will be taken to prevent a shitstorm with these mods when their agile/lean/iterative/whateveryouwanttocallit strategy takes effect?
And even beyond the "big mods", what about the little known ones, like the NS2c, Faded, SWS, any of the other host of Balance mods out there that are already struggling to keep up with development? I seem to recall UWE wanting NS2 to be uber modder-friendly, but this quick update model only strikes me as the opposite.
Comments
So far I understood it should be fine.
To be honest, I am not yet convinced. In im the 'time will tell' group but I am still very much against patching this often.
Yeah that's the sort of thing I'm asking about, modders are technical people, I'm not a modder but I'd like to think I'm not a child. I'm not a big fan of the officials saying "It'll be fine" and expecting me to trust their plan. With as community centered as this game has become since UWE moved on this is excatly the sort of thing that needs completely open communication.
I don't think it will go over that smoothly, even if they do small changes and release them fast, it will eventually hit a mod and break it. Some of them are more fragile than others due to the way they are coded.
And if mods break every patch, that might frustrate the very few modders we have left and just not bother anymore.
Mod Framework
should've been implemented like 100 years ago
I basicly ment to say that I have been told it should be fine.. At least thats how i understood it.
I did not say I agree with that view. :P
As a modder, the thought of more frequent updates is not something I am excited about. Beyond that, given my own previous relations with all 'official' teams, well lets just say I don't expect anything from them. Many changes from compmod found their way into vanilla at one point, and pretty much the only person that spoke to me about it was Mendasp because he felt somewhat guilty about it. Those kind of actions do not build trust.
@simple_ Let me depict the life of a modder:
The magic wand :
You can be fast with any other software, good at modding, and pretty organized; there is one aura of randomness that comes with it : The tools left for you. It looks like leftovers most of the time. "Ergonomic" isn't the keyword here. Sometimes you have to fight you way through to get what you want. Keep in mind some company edit the avatar of the editor they use. I means you have a reduced number of function compared to what the studio use. Not to mention bugs...
The scrolls from the ether :
You have no docs (HowTo and such), and if you have some doc they rapidly get outdated or are completely useless if you want to do something a little outside the usual. For code/script, mapping and re-skining, it's all the same. The best doc I ever had about a game was written by a modder.
The spell caster only obeys its master :
The tools like a model exporter are often provided as a plugin for software suites that are not only expensive but clearly not intended to be edited for general population. More like professionals. The 3DSmax case tells a lot about it. The cherry on top is the 'officials' acting like lunatics, pretending you can have a copy for free if you're a student and such BS. Trust me it's all false claims.
Lies and deceit are the Evil ultimate currency
You will always find a Sh|t load of people that are saying they join the team to create mods. Once it's organized, and the tasks are assigned you find yourself waiting, waiting, waiting for these *ù$^*:ù*$ to create something. Basically in a team, you have 2 valid guys; the rest is a bunch of parasites or dreamers. Any modder has a story like this one.
Meditation is the first step for great conjuration
It's a lone ride most of the time. You're barely helped by officials, or related people as they signed NDA contracts (or are still under contract). There is no direct revenue for the company editing the game if they use time to help you, so they leave it like that ("F**k it, we don't care!").
The problem isn't to create things; most modders are imaginative people, the problem is they loose huge loads of time trying to find ways to do things inside the sandbox. It's the hardest. They usually forget (or don't want) to publish any HowTo and stuff when they find. It's not helping as it could boost things to get new content faster. Other modders could use it for the greater good. Also it's always too late. Any doc revealing secrets are kind of going to Oblivion as players and modders moved to another game.
Great potions require good tools to work on ingredients
With time we managed to distill more pixels / faces / scripts using better free software. The free tools did improved and provide better ingredients. But as they evolve it take more time to master the masters tools... So the specialization tends to become the norm and you depend on many people to create a multi-area (art + script etc) big mod : See Ultimate Evil Currency.
And there is your own life to cope with. Soooooo......
I'm doing this for decades now with several games and it didn't changed a bit. When I hear some game editor saying his new game is gonna rock the place and they will provide support for modders... To me it's like a junkie saying he's gonna get clean tomorrow. The first word that pops in my mind is written in Arial 1024px : BullSh|||||||||t!
I hope i didn't scare you, but these are the realities any modder faced and will face for many years to come.
The way it worked was that a group of us worked on balance changes for Compmod, which @xDragon then implemented. Later, I suggested balance changes for vanilla based on Compmod with higher player player counts in mind. Mistakenly, I had assumed someone higher up in the CDT had contacted him regarding implemented changes based on his code. I'm unsure how this would work out legally as I don't know if Dragon's code was directly adopted or if the changes were simply used as 'inspiration' for vanilla implementation.
Im certainly not excited about having to update mods more frequently, I doubt anyone would be. But do I think it will be game crushing change? No. As long as they don't exceed probably about a weekly cycle, and follow the same style they have been typically with how functions and stuff get updated.
As for the compmod stuff, I don't really care given its months ago now (or years?) If I had, I would have brought it up then. That said, its not something that I exactly appreciate or will disregard completely.
@xDragon
You forgot the important GorgeZilla Mod.