Actually I sort of like the idea where you could get some res for destroying an rt. However, this could easily backfire making it so that a team already losing gets in real trouble as their enemy kills off there rts over and over and they lose even more badly.
Therefore what would be cool is some sort of mechanic so that when you kill an rt of a team that has 5 you get more res than if the team just had 3 for example. This way when your trying to make a comeback against a team that is out resing you it is possible to get a large bonus for hitting their res relative to the bonus they are getting for killing off our only rt.
Also relating back to the idea of killing off infestation and power nodes which I dislike. I believe there may be a way to do this but still have a simular effect to what we do today. What if the rts were the power node/infestation node!?
For example imagine that when you build the rt it powers the room and then your other structures work. If the rt is killed not only do you not get res but that room is unpowered. Instead of building a powernode for a phase gate you make a rt. The issue would be for rooms that do not have rts and so perhaps you would still need powernodes for them. As for aliens the rt is like a infestation node and the infestation spreads across the room from it. When the rt is killed you also lose your infestation to the structures around it. Gorges could drop cysts to connect rooms together. The problem I see with this though is the confusion created by still needing powernodes in hallways and I do not think the balance would work as well as it does now.
Hmm,how about this idea! When an RT is destroyed,there's a small "boost" of Tres for a short amount of time if you place another RT on that same nozzle.
For example: You have an Extractor extracting res n' such when a Skulk comes in and destroys it for their commander. The Alien commander then places a Harvester on the freshly destroyed nozzle and they get a small boost of Tres for a *very* short amount of time! Of course,you can't just place an RT,destroy it,and place another one for boosts! But Commanders would have to be quick,or else nothing special happens. :P
Lore wise,it could be due to the previous RT pumping out all that sludge and suddenly disappearing,so the sludge is basically spewing out for a short time.
This is just a random thought I had,and there's probably atleast 5 things wrong with it,so do tell me!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited December 2015
@Frozen I dislike the powernode "win button" mechanics? I've never liked them, especially since there's no equivalent for aliens (who are more often than not spread out across multiple techpoints as well).
@krOoze I was not speaking in particular about the advantages you get for STAYING successful, like keeping your JP, but since we are now, it's important to note that these do NOT aid in comebacks so much as they aid in prolonging an already ended round. A great example is aliens keeping their lifeform upgrades even after the tech is destroyed / map control is lost. Linear tech progression is a double edged sword you see : it has potential for the rare case of assisting a comeback when your team is on the backfoot - but more often than not because said upgrades aren't impactful enough it is just prolonging the death of a team that's already lost. (think Exos in a turtled base)
Said mechanics and the misunderstanding of what constitutes a viable comeback feature are just part of the reason we have turtles or prolonged games in the first place. Great initiative, just poor execution. This is why increasing the slippery slope won't resolve these issues as you were proposing, unless they were so extreme rounds would be decided by 5 min.
I think new features that are tied to certain timings in a round and a faster income rate ( @Grissi 's idea) would assist far more than more hidden mechanics like RTS upkeep or finite resources etc.
The idea being a forgiving and stable early game, with an unstable and unpredictable late game.
If i stand on a res node biting it for 60 seconds... that's PvE. If i'm the guy going and welding our resnodes for 60 seconds... that's PvE. I don't join in the front line battles because no one else wants to go save our res node from the skulk. Then I get owned by the lerk supporting that skulk. Rinse and repeat.
Biting res/defending res is probably the most PvP-intensive part of the game.
Saving your res node from the skulk? That skulk is a player. Getting owned by a lerk supporting the skulk? That lerk is a player. Trying to finish off that RT that takes less than 30 seconds to bite before the incoming footsteps of ANOTHER PLAYER reaches you? PvP. You're contradicting yourself.
Its not PvP intensive if you spending more time biting the node than a marine. Or welding a node more than shooting a lerk that darts in and darts out. There's more screen time of the node than the enemy. Cool I shot a skulk a bit and he ran away in the vent... that was 3 seconds. Now I'm going to weld the node back up... >3 seconds.
There's literally more shooting of other players at the battle fronts than defending a node that a skulk sneaked by to harass/annoy the marines.
There's no contradiction. you only frame your response to support a PvP nature where one does not exist.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
RT biting and thus the defense is one of my favorite PvP interactions in the game. Fighting a whip is one of my least favorite PvE interactions in the game.
Hey,do you all think that when NS2 gets fixed and changed and balanced more with all of our help and suggestions that it'll be almost nostalgic looking back at this thread? Seeing all of our suggestions and thinking "Gosh,I remember suggesting that!" whilst playing NS2 and seeing those suggestions in-game. I hope we all see that soon
Anywhos,I don't really consider biting RTs as PvE. I see it more as "This belongs to the enemy and aids them,I can't let it do that!" and pretty much see it as an enemy itself. If a Marine is coming after me because I was harassing their RT,I consider that PvP. I made them angry,now I gotta deal with em! It's also really fun distracting them with it >:D
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2015
We have some good ideas in this discussion, but i think most especial the "remove or change things" are pretty useless.
Why are new players losing against vets or average pub players?
Cause they lose engagements with bad aim and bad positioning.
You could remove the whole RTs aspect and simplyfing the maps to 2 rooms and they would still getting slaughtered by half experienced fades.
Do you really believe that a player with 3% accuracy as marine would enjoy the game more if it had no cysts for example?
He would still end a game 4-22.
This was exactly what happened with Combat.
The NS2 vets came in, slaughter all the new players, and the game died.
Same on the other side.
One good shooter can block a side alone with medsupport while one skulk after another is running on the floor straight to him.
I saw countless skulks doing the same again and again.
Its like they learned nothing from there last 20 death.
THATS why the game is losing players.
New Players are fustrated cause they get slaughtered from "cheaters", vets are frustrated cause one bad game after another.
I played the game the last 2 days again a bit and i was shocked how bad most people are on alienside these days.
People with over 1100 hive points had basicly no clue how to move or engage as skulk.
And the lack of any gamesense is also common these days.
I still believe thats the result of players learned the game on >24 clusterfuck Servers.
Played against one with 2500 hive skill who is playing very often on this Kind of Servers for example but he was far from good.
Find a way to teach these players ingame and you dont need to simplify things.
And im not talking about mentor programs here.
The game should help these players in special situations.
Well, in my opinion nothing can help a player with 3% accuracy.
But thats another story.
One reason why CS:Go is so successfull is:
Players play against there skill level.
Imagine a horde silvers in CS:Go facing a player like friberg.
Do you think that these players continue playing after getting slaughtered round after round?
In NS2 new players facing fribergs on every server in every round.
What you describe seems like a res-for-kill system, which would be EXTREMELY bad if we are trying to address the heavy snowballing (sometimes it feel more like an instant avalanche)
It gives the winners of a fight even more of an advantage than already get by having won the fight.
Think about the 50-0 God-Fades. Imagine FINALLY killing the fade that has murdered your team 3 times, just to have him immediately re-fade and do it all again. Its a very frustrating, hollow victory sort of feeling that just makes you want to give up even more.
...On the other hand, if an RFK gave different amounts of resources based on K/D or kills/life (its different), that could be an interesting way to balance things out.
Example:
Simple:
A player is worth their K/D in pres to their killer. So a 50-0 god-fade would be worth 50 pres*, and a 1/50 nublet would be worth next to nothing
*(Pres divided among all players that assisted in the kill)
The actual ammount of res the player is worth can be shows on the scoreboard for simplicity, and maybe even with a skill icon over high value targets player model.
-OR-
Dynamic:
A player becomes worth more depending on the amount of kills they get during their current life, meaning that if that 50-0 God-Fade dies while spawning due to a hive push, he does not grant 2 huge rewards so fast.
This is like a "Bounty" system that helps out players who cant go 50-0 against those that can by letting them earn more tech*.
*(Pres divided among all players that assisted in the kill)
I know we already give out points based on %Damage done, this system could translate into how Pres would be divided.
so killing the commander, or a gorge player would = very little pres even though the kills might win you the game
Well....I didn't think of commanders
Maybe if the bounty was based on score (points) instead? That way the bounty is based on the impact that player had on the overall game?
you bring up a good point though, commanders SHOULD be high value targets.
Also, in terms of helping new players understand whats important, adjusting the score system (which would be required for this idea) would be a very easy way for players to understand what is more important than what. (give players more points for actions that have a higher impact on the game, like building/repairing resource towers)
What you describe seems like a res-for-kill system, which would be EXTREMELY bad if we are trying to address the heavy snowballing (sometimes it feel more like an instant avalanche)
It gives the winners of a fight even more of an advantage than already get by having won the fight.
Think about the 50-0 God-Fades. Imagine FINALLY killing the fade that has murdered your team 3 times, just to have him immediately re-fade and do it all again. Its a very frustrating, hollow victory sort of feeling that just makes you want to give up even more.
...On the other hand, if an RFK gave different amounts of resources based on K/D or kills/life (its different), that could be an interesting way to balance things out.
Example:
Simple:
A player is worth their K/D in pres to their killer. So a 50-0 god-fade would be worth 50 pres*, and a 1/50 nublet would be worth next to nothing
*(Pres divided among all players that assisted in the kill)
The actual ammount of res the player is worth can be shows on the scoreboard for simplicity, and maybe even with a skill icon over high value targets player model.
-OR-
Dynamic:
A player becomes worth more depending on the amount of kills they get during their current life, meaning that if that 50-0 God-Fade dies while spawning due to a hive push, he does not grant 2 huge rewards so fast.
This is like a "Bounty" system that helps out players who cant go 50-0 against those that can by letting them earn more tech*.
*(Pres divided among all players that assisted in the kill)
I know we already give out points based on %Damage done, this system could translate into how Pres would be divided.
so killing the commander, or a gorge player would = very little pres even though the kills might win you the game
Well....I didn't think of commanders
Maybe if the bounty was based on score (points) instead? That way the bounty is based on the impact that player had on the overall game?
you bring up a good point though.
Or simpler no pres for kills so players snowball less. You do get pres for structure damage and that's easy for everyone. Also make stuff cost more.
The Pres for kill in this case is works against snowballing.
It rewards players for killing "High-Value" targets so if one team is getting stomped, each kill gives them more than their enemy is getting.
i.e.
Marines kill the 50-0 fade, large bonues divided among the killers.
Fade kills 0-50 marine, gets no/very small bonus.
Pres for structure kills could kind of be used in the same way seeing as how the winning team might have more structures to destroy.
I'd love to find a non-hidden way to do this, but I honestly think a "Bounty" on high-impact targets (Comms, Gorges, High-Skill killers) would not only slow the snowball effect, but give a morale boost to the losing team and encourage them to keep playing.
P.S.
I'm not saying that the winning team should feel like ending the game is an uphill battle, just that they shouldn't feel like they have a bulldozer against a sand castle.
If i stand on a res node biting it for 60 seconds... that's PvE. If i'm the guy going and welding our resnodes for 60 seconds... that's PvE. I don't join in the front line battles because no one else wants to go save our res node from the skulk. Then I get owned by the lerk supporting that skulk. Rinse and repeat.
Biting res/defending res is probably the most PvP-intensive part of the game.
Saving your res node from the skulk? That skulk is a player. Getting owned by a lerk supporting the skulk? That lerk is a player. Trying to finish off that RT that takes less than 30 seconds to bite before the incoming footsteps of ANOTHER PLAYER reaches you? PvP. You're contradicting yourself.
Its not PvP intensive if you spending more time biting the node than a marine. Or welding a node more than shooting a lerk that darts in and darts out. There's more screen time of the node than the enemy. Cool I shot a skulk a bit and he ran away in the vent... that was 3 seconds. Now I'm going to weld the node back up... >3 seconds.
There's literally more shooting of other players at the battle fronts than defending a node that a skulk sneaked by to harass/annoy the marines.
There's no contradiction. you only frame your response to support a PvP nature where one does not exist.
Also I'm not that good so...
You're literally saying that the only thing you consider PvP is shooting at other players. What other games do you play?
Well biting RTs is adrenaline sport for me. It's like "no, no, no, surely they are comming for me, they are everywhere, please couple more second, please, please just a half second more". It's unnerving, like watching Paranormal Activity in middle of the night. But well, if somebody doesn't like it, nobody forces him to do it. What's one more mindless musle in seek and kill mode. Besides you can do useful things without it too. E.g. cover the guy who's doing it. Or distracting enemy elsewhere. And well, if everybody around you is throwing the game, I thereby give you written permision to throw it too and just go shoot someone. It's just a game. Just play it the way YOU enjoy then or play something else that gives you pleasure.
@Benson Some games I and most of the team have < 1.0 KDR and still winning (because we are doing productive high-risk high-revard things, not just grinding meat). Would bounty influence those rounds in desirable way?
Also the winning team usually have more kills. Wouldn't it be one of those things giving one more snowballing advantage, you seem to dislike?
The defending team often have lot of deaths by grenade spam and spawn killing. Doesn't it hurt that situations unfavorably? Or that's intentional it makes bases less defensible?
Some liveforms / weapons have naturally high KDR. Doesn't it make them bit OP and unfair? They would get most pres again.
It is a disadvantage for new players. Isn't that bad/unpractical?
@IronHorse Actually, this time I was trying to suggest things that REDUCE snowballing/slippery slope to help you out, against my best judgement (no pleasing some people ). Or are you responding to the tech-tree idea? I never meant it as linear, but as binary/flat (either you have that single tech or you don't). Actually I think did not mention how they should be dependent/hierarchized at all only that it should be more granular/ unit like and more counterable/specificaly targetable by being also a single structure per upgrade.
Perhaps some res could be gained by destroying structure. That could allow the losing team to climb the stairs back. And allow the winning team some window to kill that last turtled base, if the players are out trying to recover.
I have heard this idea before and I like it... I don't see a downside to it yet, but I'll think on it.
It has the additional benefit of helping teach the importance of destroying RTs over players.
Edit: I don't like it after some thought, since the winning team is typically winning from killing the enemy's RTs already..
Man I can't wait until new players come in. The majority of current players are jerks who take the game WAY to seriously as if it's there life. Just got back from a round of super-duper tryhards huffing and puffing over the mic and arguing. It's just a game,take a break and go outside!
But I like the idea of getting res for destroying structures! Now will certain structures give more res than others?
If i stand on a res node biting it for 60 seconds... that's PvE. If i'm the guy going and welding our resnodes for 60 seconds... that's PvE. I don't join in the front line battles because no one else wants to go save our res node from the skulk. Then I get owned by the lerk supporting that skulk. Rinse and repeat.
Biting res/defending res is probably the most PvP-intensive part of the game.
Saving your res node from the skulk? That skulk is a player. Getting owned by a lerk supporting the skulk? That lerk is a player. Trying to finish off that RT that takes less than 30 seconds to bite before the incoming footsteps of ANOTHER PLAYER reaches you? PvP. You're contradicting yourself.
Its not PvP intensive if you spending more time biting the node than a marine. Or welding a node more than shooting a lerk that darts in and darts out. There's more screen time of the node than the enemy. Cool I shot a skulk a bit and he ran away in the vent... that was 3 seconds. Now I'm going to weld the node back up... >3 seconds.
There's literally more shooting of other players at the battle fronts than defending a node that a skulk sneaked by to harass/annoy the marines.
There's no contradiction. you only frame your response to support a PvP nature where one does not exist.
Also I'm not that good so...
You're literally saying that the only thing you consider PvP is shooting at other players. What other games do you play?
That's literally the definition of Player v Player (PvP), as opposed to Player v Environment (PvE). I don't know how anyone considers biting or shooting a stationary object that doesn't shoot back nor is controlled by a player is anything close to PvP. However, I do understand that the extractor/harvester biting/shooting is a catalyst for PvP.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Actually I just realized @soccerguy243 is describing the difference between stuctures and lame. I think most people only call lame by PvE in this game.
I personally vouch for forced tutorials over heavy gameplay changes. Sort of like a 'complete this challenge map' and if a player cannot complete all of the tutorials then they will be forced to join rookie only servers (if they want to skip the tutorial) and won't be able to join regular servers until the tutorials are completed.
Similar to QL's old tutorial - I couldn't complete one of the rocket jump maps and that prevented me from going into the high skill bracket - I liked that feature a lot.. That's just my opinion though, NS2 was always lacking a very interactive in-game tutorial.
A new game I just got a few weeks ago called helldivers which is a twin stick shooter has a forced tutorial which goes over all the games mechanics and you must complete it before you can play. I think the tutorial was great, straight forward, and explained nearly everything you need to know. Obviously a lot of mechanics you discover in-game or from other players but the basic gameplay of everything was in the tutorial itself
offtopic?
So what happened, UWE is returning development to NS2? Was there an increase in players or something to make them come back?
You're literally saying that the only thing you consider PvP is shooting at other players. What other games do you play?
That's literally the definition of Player v Player (PvP), as opposed to Player v Environment (PvE). I don't know how anyone considers biting or shooting a stationary object that doesn't shoot back nor is controlled by a player is anything close to PvP. However, I do understand that the extractor/harvester biting/shooting is a catalyst for PvP.
So chess isn't a PvP game until you actually capture an opponent's piece? RTS games like SC2 are not PvP until a unit dies and it reverts back to PvE when armies disengage?
Res biting/defending is one of the the best and most intense PvP environments, because you have to actually THINK what the opposing player is going to do and act accordingly in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. Am I not hearing footsteps because no one is coming, or because the defending marine is weighing the risk of not saving the RT in time against the gain of surprising you? Can I empty my clip into the harvester that's about to die, or did I hear a skulk behind the wall just waiting for me to start reloading?
There's nothing wrong with not liking that part of the game if you're here just to press M1 and shooting things up in a CODesque deathmatch, but calling it PvE is ridiculous and wrong.
That's literally the definition of Player v Player (PvP), as opposed to Player v Environment (PvE). I don't know how anyone considers biting or shooting a stationary object that doesn't shoot back nor is controlled by a player is anything close to PvP. However, I do understand that the extractor/harvester biting/shooting is a catalyst for PvP.
That definition also says that PVE is fighting against computer controlled opponents.
Cant remember that a Harvester ever tried to kill me.
NS2 is objective based.
While killing the Hives/CCs are the main objectives, denying res is a sub-objective.
Thats the main part of ANY RTs game.
Starcraft 1v1 is no PVP for you? Interisting.
In Cs:Go you have to defuse a bomb or your team lose. By your definition this is PVE also.
^ this @soccerguy243 Sometimes it helps to read the definitions you link. We understood, what you dislike about the game and that's alright. But there is no need to use incorect term just to insult that aspect of the game.
"Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants.[1] This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer-controlled opponents and/or players, which is referred to as player versus environment (PvE)."
The RT is really not "opponent" or "player", you do not compete against it and ultimately, while passive, it is controlled by the human commander. If anything PvP and PvE does not apply much outside of MMORPG (which is written on the same wiki page you link) or RT biting does not match either category or it is a part of PvP (where it twists the definition the least).
The pub games are all PvP. The sandbox and bot game are PvE. <- That's perhaps the only safe and correct usage of the terms.
Saying biting RTs is PvE aspect is like saying holding control points in Battlefield is PvE. Or avoiding mines in NS2 for that matter. Or dodging bullets after the shooting player no longer have control over them.
You hate biting RTs. Should have ended there. That's totaly acceptable position enough without improving it by calling that PvE over and over.
A bounty system may be an interesting thing to implement. Hell it could even be done at the mod level so we can see how it goes. Even CS:S has bounties on some servers for pub play the mod has been around basically as long as the game has existed.
The issue in NS2 though is if the bounty should just go to who gets the kill or be split up between the attackers.
Also as for the idea of bounty on static objects like rts ect what if they could gain bounty over time up to a limit. An rt for example builds up its bounty as it has extracted resources. Thus destroying rts which have been up for a while is encouraged. Likewise you could have a phase gate or a gorge tunnel build bounty based off its usage.
@Benson Some games I and most of the team have < 1.0 KDR and still winning (because we are doing productive high-risk high-revard things, not just grinding meat). Would bounty influence those rounds in desirable way?
Also the winning team usually have more kills. Wouldn't it be one of those things giving one more snowballing advantage, you seem to dislike?
The defending team often have lot of deaths by grenade spam and spawn killing. Doesn't it hurt that situations unfavorably? Or that's intentional it makes bases less defensible?
Some liveforms / weapons have naturally high KDR. Doesn't it make them bit OP and unfair? They would get most pres again.
It is a disadvantage for new players. Isn't that bad/unpractical?
You seem to be confusing "Bounty" with traditional RFK.
The main difference between a "Bounty" system and traditional RFK is basically that the team with more kills gets less resources.
A "Bounty" would only have a value on a player who has not died and accumulated a large number of points/kills in that single life, with the "Bounty" getting reset with each death.
It is true that some lifeforms and loadouts are MEANT to have a high K/D (fade, onos, jp/shotgun, exo), but this is not RFK. High K/D players will not be getting resources for killing anything but other high K/D players. And the players with that "Bounty" on them will either have to play more safe, or risk handing the enemy a large Pres bonus.
As far as new players, so long as targets with a "Bounty" are marked on the scoreboard or with an icon over their player model, it will help reinforce good behavior as they will seek out the high value targets, like the commander, exo or fade, and be understand how important it is to take away the enemies equipment.
Im not saying this is a perfect idea, but it does help slow down the snowball effect, create more comeback possibilities, and help focus new players on what/why they are losing and who they need to kill to stop it.
The biggest problem i can forsee is that players begin to ignore the structure side of the game whenever a player has a high bounty. Players may just ignore resource towers and focus on killing enemies.... but hey, no one kills resources in pub ns2 anyway
^ Oh, it resets on death! ok.
Still, what about the rookies, which will get dry (segragate them on different server?)?
Wouldn't players prefer to cheat it with "kill" console command or suicide by natural causes (when they have enough to reevolve presumably)? For marines they can simply drop gun/exo and preemptively suicide. (That reminds me of that asocial "kill your own to deny" mechanic in DOTA )
I personally vouch for forced tutorials over heavy gameplay changes. Sort of like a 'complete this challenge map' and if a player cannot complete all of the tutorials then they will be forced to join rookie only servers (if they want to skip the tutorial) and won't be able to join regular servers until the tutorials are completed.
That's exactly what's being worked on.
But it'll just be the first (bronze) tier containing the basics that'll be required to play on non rookie servers.
After that they can join regular servers but may have an identifying badge or something similar that denotes that they haven't completed all of the tutorials yet.
@krOoze lol. I read the definition. Computer controlled (aka BOTS) would be PvE. A structure is neither a player or computer controlled, it doesn't move, react, dodge, etc, thus it doesn't fit PvP.
Munching a harvester or shooting an extractor is PvE. Just like damaging armories, the power node, shells... that's all PvE. These are objects, not players.
@soccerguy243 Ah! But these said objects belong to the enemy players! And once you begin to munch them,the enemy players are alerted and come to stop you. I consider that PvP since you're making the enemy come to you.
I think the least of our issues are people complaining about nubs. People are not stupid. They just don't care yet. Forcing someone isn't going to help. You'll just make them suffer for the same results....
This game plays differently in part to the ping and that alone is hard enough to get use to. Since the tutorials won't address the real issues of the game, then you'll still have nubs claiming cheats.
We don't even have the player count to divide nubs from the complainers of nubs. This game is held together by nubs and players trying to hold onto these nubs. Trying to force tutorials on players because semi serious players want to play on a free adminless server uninteruppted by nubs is not the style of sale and support that some may have hoped for...
Learning the game hot is the way to go. If you're the type of player who reads the guide instead of sticking the game in...good for you.
@3X4L7
You should read the long list of threads concerning that matter before talking about that. It extends on a span about 10 years long.
From :
"nubz are dumb"
"license to NS" (my favorite)
"if only nubz could _________ (write anything related to a NS task here)"
and so on.
Frankly :
ANY succeeding RTS has tutorials. If not directly named tutorial it's hidden behind a 5 dull map set. doh...
ANY game experience is way better when you have the necessary knowledge.
So the more it is enforced the more the players understand what's going on (the basics). Especially because this is NOT a FPS only game. But RTS/FPS. So even if it's not perfect at least we won't have people joining a server and then configure the keyboard like in any stupid FPS.
"Sticking with the game" as you describe has proven to be inefficient to say the least. It never worked with soon to be great players nor the jerks that can't keep it in the pants.
If it happens to be an interesting and somehow entertaining moment for the new player it will be better.
We all agree here that a potent source of information is better than anything comparing with the time spent learning the game on its own. 1h with a Mentor, or 1h hour in computer controlled tutorial is WAY more efficient to learn the game mechanics and priorities.
Comments
Therefore what would be cool is some sort of mechanic so that when you kill an rt of a team that has 5 you get more res than if the team just had 3 for example. This way when your trying to make a comeback against a team that is out resing you it is possible to get a large bonus for hitting their res relative to the bonus they are getting for killing off our only rt.
Also relating back to the idea of killing off infestation and power nodes which I dislike. I believe there may be a way to do this but still have a simular effect to what we do today. What if the rts were the power node/infestation node!?
For example imagine that when you build the rt it powers the room and then your other structures work. If the rt is killed not only do you not get res but that room is unpowered. Instead of building a powernode for a phase gate you make a rt. The issue would be for rooms that do not have rts and so perhaps you would still need powernodes for them. As for aliens the rt is like a infestation node and the infestation spreads across the room from it. When the rt is killed you also lose your infestation to the structures around it. Gorges could drop cysts to connect rooms together. The problem I see with this though is the confusion created by still needing powernodes in hallways and I do not think the balance would work as well as it does now.
For example: You have an Extractor extracting res n' such when a Skulk comes in and destroys it for their commander. The Alien commander then places a Harvester on the freshly destroyed nozzle and they get a small boost of Tres for a *very* short amount of time! Of course,you can't just place an RT,destroy it,and place another one for boosts! But Commanders would have to be quick,or else nothing special happens. :P
Lore wise,it could be due to the previous RT pumping out all that sludge and suddenly disappearing,so the sludge is basically spewing out for a short time.
This is just a random thought I had,and there's probably atleast 5 things wrong with it,so do tell me!
@krOoze I was not speaking in particular about the advantages you get for STAYING successful, like keeping your JP, but since we are now, it's important to note that these do NOT aid in comebacks so much as they aid in prolonging an already ended round. A great example is aliens keeping their lifeform upgrades even after the tech is destroyed / map control is lost. Linear tech progression is a double edged sword you see : it has potential for the rare case of assisting a comeback when your team is on the backfoot - but more often than not because said upgrades aren't impactful enough it is just prolonging the death of a team that's already lost. (think Exos in a turtled base)
Said mechanics and the misunderstanding of what constitutes a viable comeback feature are just part of the reason we have turtles or prolonged games in the first place. Great initiative, just poor execution. This is why increasing the slippery slope won't resolve these issues as you were proposing, unless they were so extreme rounds would be decided by 5 min.
I think new features that are tied to certain timings in a round and a faster income rate ( @Grissi 's idea) would assist far more than more hidden mechanics like RTS upkeep or finite resources etc.
The idea being a forgiving and stable early game, with an unstable and unpredictable late game.
Its not PvP intensive if you spending more time biting the node than a marine. Or welding a node more than shooting a lerk that darts in and darts out. There's more screen time of the node than the enemy. Cool I shot a skulk a bit and he ran away in the vent... that was 3 seconds. Now I'm going to weld the node back up... >3 seconds.
There's literally more shooting of other players at the battle fronts than defending a node that a skulk sneaked by to harass/annoy the marines.
There's no contradiction. you only frame your response to support a PvP nature where one does not exist.
Also I'm not that good so...
Yes!
Anywhos,I don't really consider biting RTs as PvE. I see it more as "This belongs to the enemy and aids them,I can't let it do that!" and pretty much see it as an enemy itself. If a Marine is coming after me because I was harassing their RT,I consider that PvP. I made them angry,now I gotta deal with em! It's also really fun distracting them with it >:D
Why are new players losing against vets or average pub players?
Cause they lose engagements with bad aim and bad positioning.
You could remove the whole RTs aspect and simplyfing the maps to 2 rooms and they would still getting slaughtered by half experienced fades.
Do you really believe that a player with 3% accuracy as marine would enjoy the game more if it had no cysts for example?
He would still end a game 4-22.
This was exactly what happened with Combat.
The NS2 vets came in, slaughter all the new players, and the game died.
Same on the other side.
One good shooter can block a side alone with medsupport while one skulk after another is running on the floor straight to him.
I saw countless skulks doing the same again and again.
Its like they learned nothing from there last 20 death.
THATS why the game is losing players.
New Players are fustrated cause they get slaughtered from "cheaters", vets are frustrated cause one bad game after another.
I played the game the last 2 days again a bit and i was shocked how bad most people are on alienside these days.
People with over 1100 hive points had basicly no clue how to move or engage as skulk.
And the lack of any gamesense is also common these days.
I still believe thats the result of players learned the game on >24 clusterfuck Servers.
Played against one with 2500 hive skill who is playing very often on this Kind of Servers for example but he was far from good.
Find a way to teach these players ingame and you dont need to simplify things.
And im not talking about mentor programs here.
The game should help these players in special situations.
Well, in my opinion nothing can help a player with 3% accuracy.
But thats another story.
One reason why CS:Go is so successfull is:
Players play against there skill level.
Imagine a horde silvers in CS:Go facing a player like friberg.
Do you think that these players continue playing after getting slaughtered round after round?
In NS2 new players facing fribergs on every server in every round.
Well....I didn't think of commanders
Maybe if the bounty was based on score (points) instead? That way the bounty is based on the impact that player had on the overall game?
you bring up a good point though, commanders SHOULD be high value targets.
Also, in terms of helping new players understand whats important, adjusting the score system (which would be required for this idea) would be a very easy way for players to understand what is more important than what. (give players more points for actions that have a higher impact on the game, like building/repairing resource towers)
Or simpler no pres for kills so players snowball less. You do get pres for structure damage and that's easy for everyone. Also make stuff cost more.
The Pres for kill in this case is works against snowballing.
It rewards players for killing "High-Value" targets so if one team is getting stomped, each kill gives them more than their enemy is getting.
i.e.
Marines kill the 50-0 fade, large bonues divided among the killers.
Fade kills 0-50 marine, gets no/very small bonus.
Pres for structure kills could kind of be used in the same way seeing as how the winning team might have more structures to destroy.
I'd love to find a non-hidden way to do this, but I honestly think a "Bounty" on high-impact targets (Comms, Gorges, High-Skill killers) would not only slow the snowball effect, but give a morale boost to the losing team and encourage them to keep playing.
P.S.
I'm not saying that the winning team should feel like ending the game is an uphill battle, just that they shouldn't feel like they have a bulldozer against a sand castle.
You're literally saying that the only thing you consider PvP is shooting at other players. What other games do you play?
@Benson Some games I and most of the team have < 1.0 KDR and still winning (because we are doing productive high-risk high-revard things, not just grinding meat). Would bounty influence those rounds in desirable way?
Also the winning team usually have more kills. Wouldn't it be one of those things giving one more snowballing advantage, you seem to dislike?
The defending team often have lot of deaths by grenade spam and spawn killing. Doesn't it hurt that situations unfavorably? Or that's intentional it makes bases less defensible?
Some liveforms / weapons have naturally high KDR. Doesn't it make them bit OP and unfair? They would get most pres again.
It is a disadvantage for new players. Isn't that bad/unpractical?
@IronHorse Actually, this time I was trying to suggest things that REDUCE snowballing/slippery slope to help you out, against my best judgement (no pleasing some people
I have heard this idea before and I like it... I don't see a downside to it yet, but I'll think on it.
It has the additional benefit of helping teach the importance of destroying RTs over players.
Edit: I don't like it after some thought, since the winning team is typically winning from killing the enemy's RTs already..
But I like the idea of getting res for destroying structures! Now will certain structures give more res than others?
That's literally the definition of Player v Player (PvP), as opposed to Player v Environment (PvE). I don't know how anyone considers biting or shooting a stationary object that doesn't shoot back nor is controlled by a player is anything close to PvP. However, I do understand that the extractor/harvester biting/shooting is a catalyst for PvP.
Other Steam games I play. I've dabbled in SC2 custom maps. CS and DOD back in high school.
Similar to QL's old tutorial - I couldn't complete one of the rocket jump maps and that prevented me from going into the high skill bracket - I liked that feature a lot.. That's just my opinion though, NS2 was always lacking a very interactive in-game tutorial.
A new game I just got a few weeks ago called helldivers which is a twin stick shooter has a forced tutorial which goes over all the games mechanics and you must complete it before you can play. I think the tutorial was great, straight forward, and explained nearly everything you need to know. Obviously a lot of mechanics you discover in-game or from other players but the basic gameplay of everything was in the tutorial itself
offtopic?
So what happened, UWE is returning development to NS2? Was there an increase in players or something to make them come back?
So chess isn't a PvP game until you actually capture an opponent's piece? RTS games like SC2 are not PvP until a unit dies and it reverts back to PvE when armies disengage?
Res biting/defending is one of the the best and most intense PvP environments, because you have to actually THINK what the opposing player is going to do and act accordingly in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. Am I not hearing footsteps because no one is coming, or because the defending marine is weighing the risk of not saving the RT in time against the gain of surprising you? Can I empty my clip into the harvester that's about to die, or did I hear a skulk behind the wall just waiting for me to start reloading?
There's nothing wrong with not liking that part of the game if you're here just to press M1 and shooting things up in a CODesque deathmatch, but calling it PvE is ridiculous and wrong.
That definition also says that PVE is fighting against computer controlled opponents.
Cant remember that a Harvester ever tried to kill me.
NS2 is objective based.
While killing the Hives/CCs are the main objectives, denying res is a sub-objective.
Thats the main part of ANY RTs game.
Starcraft 1v1 is no PVP for you? Interisting.
In Cs:Go you have to defuse a bomb or your team lose. By your definition this is PVE also.
@soccerguy243 Sometimes it helps to read the definitions you link. We understood, what you dislike about the game and that's alright. But there is no need to use incorect term just to insult that aspect of the game.
"Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants.[1] This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer-controlled opponents and/or players, which is referred to as player versus environment (PvE)."
The RT is really not "opponent" or "player", you do not compete against it and ultimately, while passive, it is controlled by the human commander. If anything PvP and PvE does not apply much outside of MMORPG (which is written on the same wiki page you link) or RT biting does not match either category or it is a part of PvP (where it twists the definition the least).
The pub games are all PvP. The sandbox and bot game are PvE. <- That's perhaps the only safe and correct usage of the terms.
Saying biting RTs is PvE aspect is like saying holding control points in Battlefield is PvE. Or avoiding mines in NS2 for that matter. Or dodging bullets after the shooting player no longer have control over them.
You hate biting RTs. Should have ended there. That's totaly acceptable position enough without improving it by calling that PvE over and over.
The issue in NS2 though is if the bounty should just go to who gets the kill or be split up between the attackers.
Also as for the idea of bounty on static objects like rts ect what if they could gain bounty over time up to a limit. An rt for example builds up its bounty as it has extracted resources. Thus destroying rts which have been up for a while is encouraged. Likewise you could have a phase gate or a gorge tunnel build bounty based off its usage.
You seem to be confusing "Bounty" with traditional RFK.
The main difference between a "Bounty" system and traditional RFK is basically that the team with more kills gets less resources.
A "Bounty" would only have a value on a player who has not died and accumulated a large number of points/kills in that single life, with the "Bounty" getting reset with each death.
It is true that some lifeforms and loadouts are MEANT to have a high K/D (fade, onos, jp/shotgun, exo), but this is not RFK. High K/D players will not be getting resources for killing anything but other high K/D players. And the players with that "Bounty" on them will either have to play more safe, or risk handing the enemy a large Pres bonus.
As far as new players, so long as targets with a "Bounty" are marked on the scoreboard or with an icon over their player model, it will help reinforce good behavior as they will seek out the high value targets, like the commander, exo or fade, and be understand how important it is to take away the enemies equipment.
Im not saying this is a perfect idea, but it does help slow down the snowball effect, create more comeback possibilities, and help focus new players on what/why they are losing and who they need to kill to stop it.
The biggest problem i can forsee is that players begin to ignore the structure side of the game whenever a player has a high bounty. Players may just ignore resource towers and focus on killing enemies.... but hey, no one kills resources in pub ns2 anyway
Still, what about the rookies, which will get dry (segragate them on different server?)?
Wouldn't players prefer to cheat it with "kill" console command or suicide by natural causes (when they have enough to reevolve presumably)? For marines they can simply drop gun/exo and preemptively suicide. (That reminds me of that asocial "kill your own to deny" mechanic in DOTA
But it'll just be the first (bronze) tier containing the basics that'll be required to play on non rookie servers.
After that they can join regular servers but may have an identifying badge or something similar that denotes that they haven't completed all of the tutorials yet.
*all of this is subject to change as its a WIP
Munching a harvester or shooting an extractor is PvE. Just like damaging armories, the power node, shells... that's all PvE. These are objects, not players.
I think the least of our issues are people complaining about nubs. People are not stupid. They just don't care yet. Forcing someone isn't going to help. You'll just make them suffer for the same results....
This game plays differently in part to the ping and that alone is hard enough to get use to. Since the tutorials won't address the real issues of the game, then you'll still have nubs claiming cheats.
We don't even have the player count to divide nubs from the complainers of nubs. This game is held together by nubs and players trying to hold onto these nubs. Trying to force tutorials on players because semi serious players want to play on a free adminless server uninteruppted by nubs is not the style of sale and support that some may have hoped for...
Learning the game hot is the way to go. If you're the type of player who reads the guide instead of sticking the game in...good for you.
You should read the long list of threads concerning that matter before talking about that. It extends on a span about 10 years long.
From :
Frankly :
- ANY succeeding RTS has tutorials. If not directly named tutorial it's hidden behind a 5 dull map set. doh...
- ANY game experience is way better when you have the necessary knowledge.
- So the more it is enforced the more the players understand what's going on (the basics). Especially because this is NOT a FPS only game. But RTS/FPS. So even if it's not perfect at least we won't have people joining a server and then configure the keyboard like in any stupid FPS.
"Sticking with the game" as you describe has proven to be inefficient to say the least. It never worked with soon to be great players nor the jerks that can't keep it in the pants.If it happens to be an interesting and somehow entertaining moment for the new player it will be better.
We all agree here that a potent source of information is better than anything comparing with the time spent learning the game on its own. 1h with a Mentor, or 1h hour in computer controlled tutorial is WAY more efficient to learn the game mechanics and priorities.
The truly good players on NS1 and NS2 did RTFM.