We're already a niche community playing a small game... why try thinning the herd even more?... why do you insist on constantly arguing with each other about "how to play"... just accept that people want different things from this game and have fun with it... thats what a GAME is intended for... FUN... if they are having fun, leave them the F alone!
"What about high player counts makes that more fun, though? I honestly want to know, because this kind of stuff is super important and we obsess over it every day," McCoy said in response. "None of us are deluded enough to think we're making a game that fits every gamer. We're making a game we think is badass, and hope other people do it.
When Titanfall has community ran servers, spanning 12 - 42 slots... then you can use a quote from them... until then, its irrelevant what they say.
Everyone knows that the reason we love NS2 so much is because there is no game like it... there is no human vs alien RTS/FPS hybrid other than NS2... the closest is the alien vs predator games... and since the release of AvP2 back in 2001 there hasn't been a good avp game.
So people that enjoy the human vs alien style of game come here... and we should welcome everyone... if they want to play strictly 6 vs 6, 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12, great, if they want to play 21 vs 21 thats fine too. there is plenty of room for everyone.
The simple fact is, everyone has spent their money on a game they want to play, and you do not have the right to tell them they can't play the way they enjoy... to think otherwise is ridiculous.
Feel free to dislike high pop servers, feel free to state that you don't like them... but don't tell other people they can't like them.
Its not about liking them or not. Its that they are rookie traps. They give a very different experience of the game while being the most attractive (being populated + not full) and first impressions matter. Some people think these servers give a false impression of the game intended or teach them the wrong things which in turn affects player retention. Whether people should like it or not is really besides the point.
I recently remembered an issue I had when I first started playing a looong time ago. As an alien, it is really hard to tell when you are in range to land a bite or a swipe. Highlighting the marine in red if your bite/swipe will connect would really help new players engage I think.
Only as a toggle-able option, with default on
And/or automatically turn off after finishing rookie mode (with a notice that says that ofc)
Last night in a game there were 3 arcs. The were able to fire one volley before aliens killed them. The arcs did some damage to a harvester, and killed the cyst. A lot of veteran players were very confused that it killed the cyst, and did not know arcs could do that anymore.
Figured I would bring it up here as confusing hidden mechanic.
Speaking of cysts, some commanders place cysts too quickly/inaccurately, usually at game start, and the auto-pathing creates a new line destroying the old cysts. They then proceed to whine about the "cyst bug". I haven't thought this through but maybe the alien commander should have to manually destroy cysts if they want to replace them and just get a cannot place error if its too close.
I think there is an actual cyst bug where you can't place any cysts as if its a deadend and you have to detour from another source to cyst that area. Happened to me a few times.
Its not about liking them or not. Its that they are rookie traps. They give a very different experience of the game while being the most attractive (being populated + not full) and first impressions matter. Some people think these servers give a false impression of the game intended or teach them the wrong things which in turn affects player retention. Whether people should like it or not is really besides the point.
There is already a warning that pops up saying that the servers are not what the game is intended to feel/play like and NS2 servers with more than 24 slots are now categorized as "NS2 Large" in the server browser and the play now button doesn't include them in the auto join.
I think that is enough to be honest.
Maybe make the warning more noticeable?
Advertise smaller population servers (or prioritize them more via auto join)?
I just think that saying "you're having fun the wrong way" is the worst way to go about this debate... People need to be more respectful to each other in this community, its already small enough, why try making it smaller with playercount prejudice?
*** EDIT ***
Also, having thought a little, how about stopping rookies from entering "NS2 Large" servers? rookies are inclined to join "rookie friendly" green servers... stop anything over 24 slots being allowed to be tagged as rookie friendly and make it so that none rookie friendly servers are not displayed in the server browser to rookies.
When they get to level 3 (or whatever the number is) and lose the rookie tag, those servers will start to appear, by which time the newly non-rookie will have experienced low pop play and can decide for themselves which playstyle they prefer.
Last night in a game there were 3 arcs. The were able to fire one volley before aliens killed them. The arcs did some damage to a harvester, and killed the cyst. A lot of veteran players were very confused that it killed the cyst, and did not know arcs could do that anymore.
Figured I would bring it up here as confusing hidden mechanic.
Maybe it was the splash from the ARCs?
I remember a patch that made ARCs not tartget cysts specifically, but they should still be able to be damaged if they are too close to their target.
I wanted to respond to something from the document:
Cost of upgrades can be intimidating to Rookies - address in some manner
I really only see this as an issue for aliens as the majority of marine equipment are relatively cheap, and can be recycled by other players (needs to be included in any tutorial)
As far as lifeforms go, maybe having the players Pres ticked down instead of taking it all at once would encourage players to try the lifeforms, and reduce frustration if/when they lose it (They would still need to have the whole cost before starting to evolve)
Example Scenario:
-Player evolves to fade.
-Once evolving is complete, their Pres begins to count down at something like 1Pres/Sec (adjustable for balance).
-- This can be communicated by an icon of their lifeform on/near their total Pres that indicates how much more Pres they have left before the lifeform is "paid off"
-If the player dies before the full cost of the lifeform is taken, they stop losing resources, meaning a flash-fade does not lose 50 pres, but some smaller amount.
-When the player buys an upgrade, that ammount is added onto their "debt"
-- The "debt" total is increased, but not the rate at which it is paid off
-The player continues to generate Pres as normal
Pros:
- Reduces frustration at "flashing" lifeforms, which encourages players to spend their Pres to experiment
- Reducing frustration at getting killed while an egg
- Aliens may have more lifeform variety in a normal game (more fun, imo)
Cons:
- Additonal UI elements (some people think the UI is currently too cluttered)
- Killing lifeform eggs only grants a delay in that lifeform, not a "kill" of that lifeform
- Gorging would be problematic with essentially "free" Pres to spend on hydras*
*Gorge Solutions:
- Gorges are exempt from this sytem (inconsistent)
- Changing lifeforms has an immediate cost before Pres begins to tick down (hidden/dual mechanics; not simple)
- Verify player has total price of any Pres expenditure before allowing it to be spent (hard to communicate, but simplest solution)
Hypotheticaly, this "debt" system could be used for all alien resource expenditures, encouraging Khamms to drop more forward structures, as their cost would only be fully lost if the structure gets completed, which would add to they asymetrical feel of both teams (similar to how Planetary Annihilation works)
Marines put full cost immediately into all their tech, but most of it can be recycled.
Aliens don't put full cost immediately, and retain any resources left over if tech is lost before being completed/paid off
I know this doesn't really "simplify" anything, but it could encourage alien players to take more risks.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
Benson - I can see that working for rookie only servers, who are trying to learn the game. I would not want to see it any other places. When I kill a fade, which is hard enough as it is, i want to feel awesome and be rewarded for the hard task i have done. seeing him 2 minutes later as a fade, would destroy any feeling of accomplishment, which might also be an annoyance to rookies, who are there to win, and not to train.
Its not about liking them or not. Its that they are rookie traps. They give a very different experience of the game while being the most attractive (being populated + not full) and first impressions matter. Some people think these servers give a false impression of the game intended or teach them the wrong things which in turn affects player retention. Whether people should like it or not is really besides the point.
There is already a warning that pops up saying that the servers are not what the game is intended to feel/play like and NS2 servers with more than 24 slots are now categorized as "NS2 Large" in the server browser and the play now button doesn't include them in the auto join.
I think that is enough to be honest.
Maybe make the warning more noticeable?
Advertise smaller population servers (or prioritize them more via auto join)?
I just think that saying "you're having fun the wrong way" is the worst way to go about this debate... People need to be more respectful to each other in this community, its already small enough, why try making it smaller with playercount prejudice?
*** EDIT ***
Also, having thought a little, how about stopping rookies from entering "NS2 Large" servers? rookies are inclined to join "rookie friendly" green servers... stop anything over 24 slots being allowed to be tagged as rookie friendly and make it so that none rookie friendly servers are not displayed in the server browser to rookies.
When they get to level 3 (or whatever the number is) and lose the rookie tag, those servers will start to appear, by which time the newly non-rookie will have experienced low pop play and can decide for themselves which playstyle they prefer.
I see where you are coming from with the whole its ok to play everywhere and on any size server etc, but the simple fact of the matter is that gameplay experience is not the reason why players are warned not to join those higher count servers and why they are generally destructive to the community.
It may be fun and entertaining to play on a higher count server, its not my thing, but I respect that others like it and may enjoy it more than lower player counts. However the reason that it can be misleading is because of legitimate technical concerns such as performance; client and serverside and balance etc. I know steps have been taken to minimise those impacts but you can't deny that they exist. So while you mock the other dude for saying that the game wasn't intended for larger player counts, he is absolutely correct in saying that, just because of performance reasons alone.
Why is there splash damage from a sound wave? Nanites aside, I brought it up because even though I knew why the cyst was dead at least 7 other veterans I was playing with did not.
It may be fun and entertaining to play on a higher count server, its not my thing, but I respect that others like it and may enjoy it more than lower player counts. However the reason that it can be misleading is because of legitimate technical concerns such as performance; client and serverside and balance etc. I know steps have been taken to minimise those impacts but you can't deny that they exist. So while you mock the other dude for saying that the game wasn't intended for larger player counts, he is absolutely correct in saying that, just because of performance reasons alone.
Now THAT is a good argument, and one that I totally agree with... its the reason I don't enjoy playing on those high pop servers myself. (Side note: Ii was never my intention to mock anyone, I just wanted to point out that I disagree with the segregation of an already small community of players.)
The server preference and rookie perception could all be fixed with the term OFFICIAL...
and that takes a declaration of what is balanced by UWE's view point.
Stuff like this is important you know?
Is it balanced at 6v6 or 12v12, because I think it's pretty dumb assumption to think it's both.
And that right there... is the solution.
If I remember rightly the game is balanced around 8 vs 8, but due to starting with a second IP when teams are over 9 players, it kind of remains balanced up to 12 vs 12... in order for the game to be balance in 6 vs 6 I personally believe that comp mod needs to be running.
@Everyone I think we can all agree (including wooza etc) that high population servers aren't/shouldn't be officially supported, for "reasons"... but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be an option.
Why is there splash damage from a sound wave? Nanites aside, I brought it up because even though I knew why the cyst was dead at least 7 other veterans I was playing with did not.
Its a shockwave... the arcs use ultra sound pulses to cause physical damage, the result is a eruption of sound vibrations that expand from a central point causing damage in an area of effect.
@Benson
Except for the alien structure what you described is a class system equivalent. It is more simple to implement a class system than what you described. Se other posts.
@Ixian
Any system like that isn't to diminish your satisfaction but to reduce the frustration of the unforgiving traits of the game which is one of the many things why the new players don't stay. Besides once you know how to kill a lifeform it becomes a formality as you know how to organise with your teammates. You never kill a potent fade alone. If it is the case; it's most likely a rookie.
On the other hand implementing such system will change the middle game so much that early and late game have to be modified in order not to provide endless games. Nothing unreachable or unreasonable IMO.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
If it is a sound cannon, there should not be a shockwave from the target, but rather the source. To single out the hive, and not just blast the wall away, it would need to find the resonance of the hive - like one does with a glass to break it with the voice only. As cysts and other structures will have different densities, weight, and shade, the resonance will change and it would only, if anything, make them wobble. If it is a sound cannon, its a über-deluxe-physics-breaking one. ^^
The mini map for the marines... I'm not certain of the person who design that technology.
The aliens who have outlines for marines and hive sight for their map but no hud display for their mind.
Well, I'm not describing this well, but new players don't use their mini map well; and when alien they don't know the disadvantage to them when a marine knows how to use it...
I personally don't think it's fun to have to dart sight between the minimap and the cross hair. I just think if the HUD already places icons on scan opponents, then why can't it for sighted ones... Yeah! this could be a cluster of icons, unless it was just an outline.
...
Aliens not seeing enemies that their aliens can see. I mean through walls...
Anyway, I'm interested in what this result gave when or if it was tried.
If it is a sound cannon, there should not be a shockwave from the target, but rather the source. To single out the hive, and not just blast the wall away, it would need to find the resonance of the hive - like one does with a glass to break it with the voice only. As cysts and other structures will have different densities, weight, and shade, the resonance will change and it would only, if anything, make them wobble. If it is a sound cannon, its a über-deluxe-physics-breaking one. ^^
A trained martial artist can break specific bricks in a stack based on physics, they hit the top brick surface and the energy of the attack ripples through that brick and those beneath it and shatters the intended brick.
Using sound someone can sing and cause a glass to shatter through the frequency vibrations.
The ARC or "Acoustic Resonance Cannon" is a specifically designed weapon that employs these two theories... it sends sound waves harmlessly through walls (the top brick) leaving it unharmed and when it reaches its designated acoustic "sweet spot" the energy is released (shattering the correct brick)... the sheer force of the vibrations and the frequencies the sound stretches across cause damage to acoustically similar objects nearby... this also explains why aliens, marines and marine structures are all left totally unharmed by the brutal force of the attack, they do not share the same acoustical frequencies.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Changing the order of the lifeforms to gorge -> skulk -> lerk really needs to happen. In a game just today, a new player went gorge, promptly died, typed "this is bullshit" and quit the game.
Comments
Its not about liking them or not. Its that they are rookie traps. They give a very different experience of the game while being the most attractive (being populated + not full) and first impressions matter. Some people think these servers give a false impression of the game intended or teach them the wrong things which in turn affects player retention. Whether people should like it or not is really besides the point.
Only as a toggle-able option, with default on
And/or automatically turn off after finishing rookie mode (with a notice that says that ofc)
Figured I would bring it up here as confusing hidden mechanic.
I think there is an actual cyst bug where you can't place any cysts as if its a deadend and you have to detour from another source to cyst that area. Happened to me a few times.
There is already a warning that pops up saying that the servers are not what the game is intended to feel/play like and NS2 servers with more than 24 slots are now categorized as "NS2 Large" in the server browser and the play now button doesn't include them in the auto join.
I think that is enough to be honest.
Maybe make the warning more noticeable?
Advertise smaller population servers (or prioritize them more via auto join)?
I just think that saying "you're having fun the wrong way" is the worst way to go about this debate... People need to be more respectful to each other in this community, its already small enough, why try making it smaller with playercount prejudice?
*** EDIT ***
Also, having thought a little, how about stopping rookies from entering "NS2 Large" servers? rookies are inclined to join "rookie friendly" green servers... stop anything over 24 slots being allowed to be tagged as rookie friendly and make it so that none rookie friendly servers are not displayed in the server browser to rookies.
When they get to level 3 (or whatever the number is) and lose the rookie tag, those servers will start to appear, by which time the newly non-rookie will have experienced low pop play and can decide for themselves which playstyle they prefer.
Maybe it was the splash from the ARCs?
I remember a patch that made ARCs not tartget cysts specifically, but they should still be able to be damaged if they are too close to their target.
I wanted to respond to something from the document:
I really only see this as an issue for aliens as the majority of marine equipment are relatively cheap, and can be recycled by other players (needs to be included in any tutorial)
As far as lifeforms go, maybe having the players Pres ticked down instead of taking it all at once would encourage players to try the lifeforms, and reduce frustration if/when they lose it (They would still need to have the whole cost before starting to evolve)
Example Scenario:
-Player evolves to fade.
-Once evolving is complete, their Pres begins to count down at something like 1Pres/Sec (adjustable for balance).
-- This can be communicated by an icon of their lifeform on/near their total Pres that indicates how much more Pres they have left before the lifeform is "paid off"
-If the player dies before the full cost of the lifeform is taken, they stop losing resources, meaning a flash-fade does not lose 50 pres, but some smaller amount.
-When the player buys an upgrade, that ammount is added onto their "debt"
-- The "debt" total is increased, but not the rate at which it is paid off
-The player continues to generate Pres as normal
Pros:
- Reduces frustration at "flashing" lifeforms, which encourages players to spend their Pres to experiment
- Reducing frustration at getting killed while an egg
- Aliens may have more lifeform variety in a normal game (more fun, imo)
Cons:
- Additonal UI elements (some people think the UI is currently too cluttered)
- Killing lifeform eggs only grants a delay in that lifeform, not a "kill" of that lifeform
- Gorging would be problematic with essentially "free" Pres to spend on hydras*
*Gorge Solutions:
- Gorges are exempt from this sytem (inconsistent)
- Changing lifeforms has an immediate cost before Pres begins to tick down (hidden/dual mechanics; not simple)
- Verify player has total price of any Pres expenditure before allowing it to be spent (hard to communicate, but simplest solution)
Hypotheticaly, this "debt" system could be used for all alien resource expenditures, encouraging Khamms to drop more forward structures, as their cost would only be fully lost if the structure gets completed, which would add to they asymetrical feel of both teams (similar to how Planetary Annihilation works)
Marines put full cost immediately into all their tech, but most of it can be recycled.
Aliens don't put full cost immediately, and retain any resources left over if tech is lost before being completed/paid off
I know this doesn't really "simplify" anything, but it could encourage alien players to take more risks.
and that takes a declaration of what is balanced by UWE's view point.
Stuff like this is important you know?
Is it balanced at 6v6 or 12v12, because I think it's pretty dumb assumption to think it's both.
ho ho merry xmas
I see where you are coming from with the whole its ok to play everywhere and on any size server etc, but the simple fact of the matter is that gameplay experience is not the reason why players are warned not to join those higher count servers and why they are generally destructive to the community.
It may be fun and entertaining to play on a higher count server, its not my thing, but I respect that others like it and may enjoy it more than lower player counts. However the reason that it can be misleading is because of legitimate technical concerns such as performance; client and serverside and balance etc. I know steps have been taken to minimise those impacts but you can't deny that they exist. So while you mock the other dude for saying that the game wasn't intended for larger player counts, he is absolutely correct in saying that, just because of performance reasons alone.
Its an Acoustic Resonance Cannon, sounds go through walls guys
Now THAT is a good argument, and one that I totally agree with... its the reason I don't enjoy playing on those high pop servers myself. (Side note: Ii was never my intention to mock anyone, I just wanted to point out that I disagree with the segregation of an already small community of players.)
And that right there... is the solution.
If I remember rightly the game is balanced around 8 vs 8, but due to starting with a second IP when teams are over 9 players, it kind of remains balanced up to 12 vs 12... in order for the game to be balance in 6 vs 6 I personally believe that comp mod needs to be running.
@Everyone I think we can all agree (including wooza etc) that high population servers aren't/shouldn't be officially supported, for "reasons"... but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be an option.
Its a shockwave... the arcs use ultra sound pulses to cause physical damage, the result is a eruption of sound vibrations that expand from a central point causing damage in an area of effect.
Except for the alien structure what you described is a class system equivalent. It is more simple to implement a class system than what you described. Se other posts.
@Ixian
Any system like that isn't to diminish your satisfaction but to reduce the frustration of the unforgiving traits of the game which is one of the many things why the new players don't stay. Besides once you know how to kill a lifeform it becomes a formality as you know how to organise with your teammates. You never kill a potent fade alone. If it is the case; it's most likely a rookie.
On the other hand implementing such system will change the middle game so much that early and late game have to be modified in order not to provide endless games. Nothing unreachable or unreasonable IMO.
The aliens who have outlines for marines and hive sight for their map but no hud display for their mind.
Well, I'm not describing this well, but new players don't use their mini map well; and when alien they don't know the disadvantage to them when a marine knows how to use it...
I personally don't think it's fun to have to dart sight between the minimap and the cross hair. I just think if the HUD already places icons on scan opponents, then why can't it for sighted ones... Yeah! this could be a cluster of icons, unless it was just an outline.
...
Aliens not seeing enemies that their aliens can see. I mean through walls...
Anyway, I'm interested in what this result gave when or if it was tried.
A trained martial artist can break specific bricks in a stack based on physics, they hit the top brick surface and the energy of the attack ripples through that brick and those beneath it and shatters the intended brick.
Using sound someone can sing and cause a glass to shatter through the frequency vibrations.
The ARC or "Acoustic Resonance Cannon" is a specifically designed weapon that employs these two theories... it sends sound waves harmlessly through walls (the top brick) leaving it unharmed and when it reaches its designated acoustic "sweet spot" the energy is released (shattering the correct brick)... the sheer force of the vibrations and the frequencies the sound stretches across cause damage to acoustically similar objects nearby... this also explains why aliens, marines and marine structures are all left totally unharmed by the brutal force of the attack, they do not share the same acoustical frequencies.
BOOM!...
Next :P
Not sure... not a star trek fan so I don't know what that is.
Heisenberg...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Heisenberg
Too bad: