I also asked you to stop looking only at the average skill, but also at the standard deviation showed by sh_teamstats. So for that game where the averages were close, what were the standard deviations of the teams? This is a serious question.
Ok Nordic... How's this. Pulled this from a game I played this morning.
Marines
1846
1840
1632
1436
846
358
Average: 1326.3 Standard Deviation: 548:9
Aliens
3169
2701
1125
1079
538
90
Average 1450.3 Standard Deviation: 1113.9
I am really really glad you quoted me for this. Did you look at those standard deviations and remember how I said that it is very hard to make teams with a high standard deviation of skill? Not only is the standard deviation on the teams horrible, but the whole server has a very high standard deviation.
To put this in more basic english, yes, those teams are not very balanced. The average shows it a little bit, but the standard deviation being twice as high as the other team really shows it.
So why does this happen?
1) Ns2's population has a lot of standard deviation. Without segregation the standard deviation on any given server will be too high. Ns2 does not have enough players to support segregation so therefor ns2 will keep experiencing high standard deviation.
2)How a server has shuffle configured can effect things like this. I don't know how @ZEROibis has his server configured. He may not shuffle with standard deviation.
3)Team switching. Did anyone switch teams there? Or did people join after the shuffle?
It doesn't matter in this case what the standard deviation is, because the system is saying that it's "balanced" when it is clearly not. Not even remotely close to being balanced.
Under no circumstances ever does shuffle say that teams are balanced. He does not have that kind of agency. In my opinion those teams are imbalanced because 1) The average hive score is not that close, and 2) the standard deviations are worlds apart.
It doesn't matter in this case what the standard deviation is...
Out of all my posts in this thread, this is what I want you to understand. It does matter, in this case, and all cases what the standard deviation is. You still only are looking at balanced by the averages. Instead look for a balanced game with near average skill and both teams have near standard deviations.
Even if the standard deviations were close, if they were a high number like 500 I would still think teams were not that balanced. I would only think that the shuffle made the best possible team combination with what it had.
You need to accept that standard deviation is apart of what you look for in balanced teams. It is a big part of what you are complaining about.
I don't think these teams you balanced are that much better than the other. They are better, but not that much better. Average skill is still pretty far apart. Standard deviation is closer but still way too high.
So here are the same players but I balanced them a little bit better than you.
If you are wondering, I hand balancecd that the same way shine is supposed to. It really does depend on how it is configured on the server.
The averages are pretty close here. The standard deviations are moderately close. Would I call these teams well balanced? NO.
These teams are not well balanced because they can't be. The standard deviation is too high. You have a 3169 skill pro playing with a 90 skill rookie. You just can't balanced well with that combination of players.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
The >3000 players are more a problem on marineside in earlygame while they become more a problem in midgame on alienside.
>3000 marines going straight for the harvesters and you need a very good ambush and/or good packplay on alienside to stop him before he reach the natural harvester.
So while the 3/4 of the aliens try to kill the one marine in northtunnel , the other marines can cap the whole map wich end in an defense trap for aliens=game is basicly over after 5 min.
>3000 aliens going lerk or fade later and slaughter the marines, but these games takes longer cause these games make it to endgame most of the time with onos.
So same player on different sides has a different influx to the game.
Looks like the elo balancing is also asymetrish like NS2 itself.
Interisting, isnt it?
So a player with 1.7 kdr wich is far above average is whining about stomping on the "white" servers? What is this?
You wouldn't be saying I was "far above average" if you saw me play. Especially Marine with my averaging around 8-13% accuracy, struggling to keep an even kdr as I sit at the bottom of the scoreboard... My 1.7 kdr comes from primarily playing Alien and getting a lot of kills as Fade and Onos. (which is pretty damned easy)
At any rate my complaint mainly stems from the fact that these players will refuse to go to a server with people playing at their own skill level. Even after you point one out to them they'll stay on the server where the best player besides them has less than 1/2 the average kdr they have. They go Marine in every single game unless shuffle forces otherwise (and some of them even reconnect to stack Marine, refusing to play Alien at all) they never play defensively or command. Instead they're always rushing straight to the enemy team's naturals (going for the throat) where they sit and basically camp the spawn for as many kills as they can get.
They are literally SO far above everyone else that for all intents and purposes they may as well be using full on aimbots and wallhacks.. Which quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are.
@mofo1 can you please stop this crap? You're just stirring the shit pot. First you complain about elo, then you complain about shuffle (yah shuffle is often awful, though nothing to do with elo calculation), now you're complaining about - let me get this right - people playing an online multiplayer game they paid for? And a problem that seriously everybody else has to deal with as well?
Who are you to tell anybody where to play?
You want "pros" to play where? Only in matches? Only in gathers? What makes a "pro" to you?
Cuz I can tell you absolutely that if you alone joined a game with people entirely below your own 'non-pro' skill set, you probably would stomp them and probably have without even realizing it. It's unavoidable. I've played with you many times over the years, you're not a bad player at all. We all have to play shit games sometimes. So what makes a pro to you? The sheer fact that they're better than the rest of the server is not something they should be punished for, cuz in some cases, you're probably the "pro" on the server too.
You can't police pubs if you're not the admin of the server, so stop trying.
@Nordic You seem to have missed my point...
It may not be perfectly balanced (or well balanced as you put it) but it's better than having both super high score players stacked on one team.
Did you not see that I agreed that your hand crafted balance was better than what you saw in game?
To put this in more basic english, yes, those teams are not very balanced. The average shows it a little bit, but the standard deviation being twice as high as the other team really shows it.
I don't think these teams you balanced are that much better than the other. They are better, but not that much better.
See. I agreed.
If you think you can hand craft teams based on their hive skill better than shuffle can make a team, you would be wrong. I have tried. The very best hand crafted I could make was still worse than the one shuffle put together.
At any rate my complaint mainly stems from the fact that these players will refuse to go to a server with people playing at their own skill level.
So you have been complaining this whole time about a balance issue saying you don't trust the numbers, that shuffle does not work, but really you complaint stems from a social issue that is separate from balance and or shuffle.
I don't like this roundabout way you finally got to that point, but I do agree. There are some highly skilled players in our community that are very toxic.
They are also that much more skilled than me, and they stomp all over me too. Do I blame shuffle or the hive skill system? No.
You want "pros" to play where? Only in matches? Only in gathers? What makes a "pro" to you?.
Nobody is saying they can only play in matches or gathers..
But when DMD #2 has multiple 3000+ players with the lowest skilled players being over 1000.. And DMD #3 has a bunch of 0-1000 players with the highest one being around 1500. Are you telling me you support a 3000+ hive score 4.0+ kdr player joining #3 and refusing to join #2 because it's "easier to stomp on rookies"
I mean come on.
Oh and on the extremely rare occasions where I end up the best player in the server you know what I do? I check the browser for another server and if there isn't one then I go marines and I'm instantly on the same level as the 0-500 rookies. (seriously I'm THAT bad at marine)
Has anyone here actually flamed you for being bad at the game? No one has and no one will.
A comment like that is a bit much. Looking at his hive profile, I am fairly certain he does not stomp rookies.
In the new hive data I have, the average hive skill for players who have played between January 1, 2016 and February 12, 2016 was 720. His hive profile was at 721. For a veteran he is below average skill, but compared to the entirety of the active player base he is pretty spot on average.
@mofo1, I realize it's frustrating, but like I said - you can't police pubs. You can't expect ppl to do the "right thing" on the internet. Especially when there are so few servers to join at times.
Sometimes you just wanna get some game in and you'll take it where you can. I can almost guarantee you that the person is quite a minority. Most very high skill players I encounter do not enjoy pubs. BUT, it offers a relief from the sometimes high stress games one may encounter in a match or even a gather.
Don't get me wrong, I think a few of em together on one team without divvying up for a fair game is shit, but you can't get worked up for pages worth of forum thread for the one or two odd guys here and there who just wanna play the game without needing to put a whole lot of care into it. Just pubs after all.
Was it ever mentioned what the arrows actually indicate? Like instead of one arrow/two arrows/equal, what is it in actual numbers? I assume it is compared against the average skill on the server, but how many hundreds difference is an arrow?
I know for the fact that in his server browser that the ghouls casual server has a single player with 1000 skill. So even 1000 skill was double up arrow for him.
This answers my question how? What I want to know is how much does it take to make the sign change.
@Aeglos, it does not directly answer your question but it gives you a range to start with. If MrChoke has ~720 hive skill and a server with exactly 1000 hive skill is double up arrow you can assume it is at least 280 skill difference.
If you want a specific answer, @Ghoul would probably know.
@Aeglos, it does not directly answer your question but it gives you a range to start with. If MrChoke has ~720 hive skill and a server with exactly 1000 hive skill is double up arrow you can assume it is at least 280 skill difference.
If you want a specific answer, @Ghoul would probably know.
Yes, I do want a specific answer. If your deduction is correct, 280 is barely anything at all and really should just be a single arrow, or we should go all the way up to at least five arrows both ways to get a better picture of what the server is like.
I wanted to see what all this was about so I joined @MoFo1 in a server. I played the first game on the field but the next 6 rounds as a com AND with a shuffle. So it was "even teams" at roughly 1000 point and me (>3k) in the chair, i didn't get out as alien com, i didn't lead. But still he managed to whine about ">3k elo players ruining the game" after every game, every single one (he lost all of them, even when we were in the same team)
Sooo after this boring story, i really don't understand what is it's problem. His ">3k" problem looks more like a "hacker everywhere" "so much lag in this game" type or reaction. I just hope future decision for this game are not base upon these kind of individual.
I wanted to see what all this was about so I joined @MoFo1 in a server. I played the first game on the field but the next 6 rounds as a com AND with a shuffle. So it was "even teams" at roughly 1000 point and me (>3k) in the chair, i didn't get out as alien com, i didn't lead. But still he managed to whine about ">3k elo players ruining the game" after every game, every single one (he lost all of them, even when we were in the same team)
Sooo after this boring story, i really don't understand what is it's problem. His ">3k" problem looks more like a "hacker everywhere" "so much lag in this game" type or reaction. I just hope future decision for this game are not base upon these kind of individual.
Ok i wanted to see all this was about so I joined @MoFo1 in a server. I played the first game on the field but the next 6 rounds as a com AND with a shuffle. So it was "even teams" at roughly 1000 point and me (>3k) in the chair, i didn't get out as alien com, i didn't lead. But still he managed to whine about ">3k elo players ruining the game" after every game, every single one (he lost all of them, even when we were in the same team)
Sooo after this boring story, i really don't understand what is it's problem. His ">3k" problem looks more like a "hacker everywhere" "so much lag in this game" type or reaction. I just hope future decision for this game are not base upon these kind of individual.
Obviously you were ruining the game by planting your 3k ass in the chair. It's your fault he lost! You didn't carry when you were supposed to.
Yeah tell the whole story or don't tell it at all..
His first game on the field he dominated the **** out of everyone, then when the game was over made a personal attack against me saying "Aliens only lost because MoFo didn't try" implying that I could've helped the Alien team win against a 3600 player..
So I spent the next 5-6 games in "tryhard" mode for lack of a better term. I busted my ass trying to do everything I could to get kills and help my team win the game. Including one game where we were on Aliens, losing horribly so I started bile rushing their main (mr pro there jumped out of the chair and stopped me every time with mind numbing ease) and he started on with this nonsense about me "trolling" by bile rushing 5 times (and I only bile rushed 4 times, twice with another gorge)
He then continued with this garbage about how I'm playing bad on purpose, further implying that I'm some pro level player capable of matching him (when I'm getting my ass handed to me by the 1000-2000 score players on the field)
So to him I'm a "troll" because I'm not a high skilled player. (oh wait, I forgot I'm totally a pro 3k level player playing bad on purpose.) It's elitist rejects like this that drive people away from this awesome game.
Oh and I should note.. the game before he joined was fine, a balanced game that went back and forth.. The two games I played after he left were also fairly balanced, went back and forth.. The 6 or so games he was in the server were all pure ****...
Yeah tell the whole story or don't tell it at all..
His first game on the field he dominated the shit out of everyone, then when the game was over made a personal attack against me saying "Aliens only lost because MoFo didn't try" implying that I could've helped the Alien team win against a 3600 player..
So I spent the next 5-6 games in "tryhard" mode for lack of a better term. I busted my ass trying to do everything I could to get kills and help my team win the game. Including one game where we were on Aliens, losing horribly so I started bile rushing their main (mr pro there jumped out of the chair and stopped me every time with mind numbing ease) and he started on with this nonsense about me "trolling" by bile rushing 5 times (and I only bile rushed 4 times, twice with another gorge)
He then continued with this garbage about how I'm playing bad on purpose, further implying that I'm some pro level player capable of matching him (when I'm getting my ass handed to me by the 1000-2000 score players on the field)
So to him I'm a "troll" because I'm not a high skilled player. (oh wait, I forgot I'm totally a pro 3k level player playing bad on purpose.) It's elitist rejects like this that drive people away from this awesome game.
Oh and I should note.. the game before he joined was fine, a balanced game that went back and forth.. The two games I played after he left were also fairly balanced, went back and forth.. The 6 or so games he was in the server were all pure shit...
Who can't stop a gorge with ease? Its not like gorges are hard to hit and doing it constantly just means he expects you, and is frankly, just a suicide move and quite stupid. You have a team. Maybe work with them instead of trying to hero your way to a win?
And really, the 3600 player can't actually do much in the chair. Even if he lands perfect meds and has a perfect tech path, he can't do anything if his team doesn't win engagements or do useful shit. With the average pub "even" teams, if the top player on the team is in the chair, I expect that team to lose. It was one game he fielded. What about the rest?
Who can't stop a gorge with ease? Its not like gorges are hard to hit and doing it constantly just means he expects you, and is frankly, just a suicide move and quite stupid. You have a team. Maybe work with them instead of trying to hero your way to a win?
And really, the 3600 player can't actually do much in the chair. Even if he lands perfect meds and has a perfect tech path, he can't do anything if his team doesn't win engagements or do useful shit. With the average pub "even" teams, if the top player on the team is in the chair, I expect that team to lose. It was one game he fielded. What about the rest?
The first two times I bile rushed I wasn't expecting to kill much (if anything) just force a beacon. The second two times were with everyone on the team who would go (which was one person) so obviously we didn't have much communication or coordination. I wasn't trying to "hero" my way to a win, just doing the only thing I could think of to help.. Throwing myself into the meat grinder near our main along with the rest of our team wouldn't have accomplished anything. A beacon would've given my team room to breathe, and possibly a chance to retake territory.
And as far as a 3600 player not being able to do much in the chair.. I respectfully disagree. He commanded Marine in all but two games, and he won every game except one... As Marine comm he rushed upgrades, was spot on with meds, and killed us with arcs every time. The game he won as Alien comm was the longest one during his stay on the server, but Marines still lost pretty badly.. The only game he lost was the one where he got stuck with me, and his commanding that game was sub-par at best. (it was also the only game he wouldn't jump out to help defend main)
Now that I think about it with the way he mentioned joining the server to "see what this was about", dominated the first game (to get my attention), made the personal attack (to piss me off), then commanded perfectly every game except the one he was placed with me... wrapped up with how he accused me of "trolling" by "playing bad on purpose" it looks like the only reason he joined that server was to troll me.
Of course with the elitist attitude he displayed that doesn't surprise me.
ok first things first: which nearly decent comm would beacon for a single alien (non onos,fade,lerk) poking the base? you are like "my suicide squad mission didn't work here only because he is 3k+". you are mistaken. even a decent commander with 1k skill would jump out and kill the single gorge harrasing his base then hop in again and tell the next spawner to weld stuff. it's a team based game so play with your team. what do you think will happen when there is suddenly 3 gorges biling down the power and one skulk getting ready to ambush the comm as soon as he hops out of his chair? teamwork is the key to victory most of the time i know it's hard on pubs but when commanders can get 20 players on wooza to do a shotgun rush u can get the help of 3 of your teammates. second thing: have u defended ur commanders rts? as a commander u can be a god but you still can't do anything without res. has ur team communicated that round? did you play as a team? did the opponent play as a team? all this can lead to a defeat on your side.
before we start i want to state that overly stacked teams will never lead to fun so don't get me wrong here like in your example a 3k guy and a 2.7k guy should never be on the same team when there is only ~1.5k guys left
before you read this: I am a very toxic person so some of this might sound harsh to an average person when it looks normal to me so i want to state that i don't want to attack someone here but just try to get some clarifications in and show you some stuff you might not have thought about. this is not ment as an offense at all
ok now to the important stuff:
IMHO you are doing some major misassumptions here (by you i'm not addressing a single person but everyone who falls in the category of highskill players are ruining my game or i'm to bad to compete with better players so i get rekt most of the time)
you assume that hiveskill is accurate on a players skill. Wrong! it's not. it only accounts wins and loses and what average hiveskill your opponent was at when they happened. it does NOT account a players individual contribution to this result. another thing is. having an average WLR of ~1.0 will automaticaly lead to you not getting any progress in your hiveskill when the average skill of both teams are even most of the time. keep that in mind when complaining about "my hive skill is not increasing"
you asume that your hiveskill not increasing means that you yourself are not improving. wrong! I can tell you while my hiveskill is decreasing (about 200 points over the last month and even more 1 year ago when i started playing competetive my elo dropped 600 points in 2 weeks) my average gameplay improves by a) gamesense and b) personal skill, obviously not in the same amount but still noticeable. when you feel you are getting shit on think about the 'y' not the 'by who'. think about this: this guy killed me 3 times in a row easyly before i even reached him. what am i doing wrong? what would make me freak out and missing him? is this engagement even necessary? is he maybe just waiting 4 me? keep in mind that a skilled marine in a good position should be able to fight of 2 skulks with medpack support. try getting them offguard instead of facing them head on. maybe he is still to good 4 me to handle alone. ok let's get help then as you have a team. communicate with them. it's stuff like this that can make the fine difference of getting rekt and pwning them. don't make it to easy for them. when i kill 4 or more aliens in a row or repeatedly killing of one marine it's most of the time that they either just straightline me one by one even letting me time to reload or just don't lern from their mistake from their privious life and run through the map with tunnel vision. and i'm not even a highskill player.
you assume that the kdr of one player in the other team leads automaticaly to a defeat on your side. wrong again! 90% of the time this one player can be easyly outplayed by avoiding him and biting res. (assumed he is marine. this is basic gameplay) no res no meds. don't engage him if it's not nessecary and don't engage him alone, try to ambush instead of facing head on, play together, call out where he is when killed by him so your team can avoid him. there is no frags to be made when there is nobody to frag.
you assume that these highskill players only reason for pushing for your naturals is only to make a shitload of frags. wrong again. most of the time it's for putting pressure on your side forcing you to react which allows his team to act freely on the field and dictate the flow of the game. whoever dictates the flow of the game is in an advantage. he might be capable of doing this alone but again try to outplay him with your brains not with pure force as he/she has a lot of strength to counter that. rememer there is no medpacks or upgrades when there is no res. on alien side it's a bit harder though as a skilled lifeform can easyly carry the whole team to victory. keep in mind a nice kdr helps but it's not what this game is all about
you assume that the distribution of servers and players on these servers are the same they were 1 year ago. you are wrong again. there is a lack of "high skill only" servers like the HBZ server mentioned by @dePARA which is due to retirement of said highskill players or the serverhosts, therefor a lack of people seeding these and due to these players being more interested in competetive or organised play as it is more challenging. Ok hold on a bit here. then why is there always highskill players on my lovely pub servers ruing my games? you might ask. these competetive or organised plays tend to be around certain times only as that's when most of these players are online and the waiting times for these events can be long so they want to do something in this time. still keep in mind i agree with you on stacked games are no fun.
you think you are the only one who is in this situation. super duper wrong. imagine u are entirly new to the game. you just bought it on sale cause it looked cool. you start up play the tutorial get on a server and bam! you get shit on by a player with a skill off 700. u can either be "wow i want to be like him" or more like "crap game! unistall. it's not my fault. it's only because he has played so much already" i give you a little hint here that's where the bootcamp server come in handy. these players can be like jeah this game is realy cool i want to spent more time with it or like nah i don't realy like this game it just feels weird. they can build up their oppinion without getting influenced by getting shit on by more advanced players. I can understand that this is not cool at all but always keep in mind that your skillrange is not the only one which can be shit on and that playing with even lower skill can make them feel the same when facing you before you rage like a lunatic in the forums.
i hope that will help you to calm down a bit. and I'll just say it again just in case someone hasn't understand it yet. this is no offense on anybody but just stating some points where IMHO you are wrong.
PS: I don't think bootcamp solves all the problems but it's a step in the right driection
Ok i wanted to see all this was about so I joined @MoFo1 in a server. I played the first game on the field but the next 6 rounds as a com AND with a shuffle. So it was "even teams" at roughly 1000 point and me (>3k) in the chair, i didn't get out as alien com, i didn't lead. But still he managed to whine about ">3k elo players ruining the game" after every game, every single one (he lost all of them, even when we were in the same team)
Sooo after this boring story, i really don't understand what is it's problem. His ">3k" problem looks more like a "hacker everywhere" "so much lag in this game" type or reaction. I just hope future decision for this game are not base upon these kind of individual.
Obviously you were ruining the game by planting your 3k ass in the chair. It's your fault he lost! You didn't carry"stomp" when you were supposed to.
ftfy
@Absurdon, well put together post, but dont expect as much logic returned.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Playing against >3000 players can be frustrating and rewarding in the same way.
If he is on marineteam i tell my teammates to callout his position if possible.
And if they doing this it ends in some good packplay or good ambushes against him very often
These moments are rewarding even if we lose the game.
On the other side it can be very frustrating if noone saying something and everyone is nonstop jumping into his rifle alone.
If he is on alienside, it can be very rewarding to kill his lerk or fade with a good trap or simple cause good aim and he was to greedy.
On the other side it can be frustrating if noone of the team can land a single shot on his fade/lerk and you dont get meds in needed situations so he can slaughter the marineteam very easy.
One >3000 is indeed a challenge, but with good communication/packplay/resbiting you can counter him.
Two >3000 is something most pubplayers cant handle.
So saying one >3000 is ruining rounds is just bullsh***
Yeah tell the whole story or don't tell it at all..
His first game on the field he dominated the **** out of everyone, then when the game was over made a personal attack against me saying "Aliens only lost because MoFo didn't try" implying that I could've helped the Alien team win against a 3600 player..
So I spent the next 5-6 games in "tryhard" mode for lack of a better term. I busted my ass trying to do everything I could to get kills and help my team win the game. Including one game where we were on Aliens, losing horribly so I started bile rushing their main (mr pro there jumped out of the chair and stopped me every time with mind numbing ease) and he started on with this nonsense about me "trolling" by bile rushing 5 times (and I only bile rushed 4 times, twice with another gorge)
He then continued with this garbage about how I'm playing bad on purpose, further implying that I'm some pro level player capable of matching him (when I'm getting my ass handed to me by the 1000-2000 score players on the field)
So to him I'm a "troll" because I'm not a high skilled player. (oh wait, I forgot I'm totally a pro 3k level player playing bad on purpose.) It's elitist rejects like this that drive people away from this awesome game.
Oh and I should note.. the game before he joined was fine, a balanced game that went back and forth.. The two games I played after he left were also fairly balanced, went back and forth.. The 6 or so games he was in the server were all pure ****...
A 3600 player in the chair means 400 average points gone in a 9 person team. In an average pub, that is a third of the team. His team should be vulnerable. In most such cases, he should lose because his team can't aim rather than you losing because of "meds".
But whatever, your problem probably isn't skill with your kdr. I have words I wish to express but don't know how to say it politely
I think UWE should promote an online tournament with prizes. Give ample time and get the word out. People will join team, they'll try to learn the game more because their is a reason too, and if you give enough time to practice lower skilled teams won't feel as it's a waste of time because they'll have tons of time to practice. Plus it brings back a few, introduces new ones, and gets more word out on NS2. ^.^
Comments
I am really really glad you quoted me for this. Did you look at those standard deviations and remember how I said that it is very hard to make teams with a high standard deviation of skill? Not only is the standard deviation on the teams horrible, but the whole server has a very high standard deviation.
To put this in more basic english, yes, those teams are not very balanced. The average shows it a little bit, but the standard deviation being twice as high as the other team really shows it.
So why does this happen?
1) Ns2's population has a lot of standard deviation. Without segregation the standard deviation on any given server will be too high. Ns2 does not have enough players to support segregation so therefor ns2 will keep experiencing high standard deviation.
2)How a server has shuffle configured can effect things like this. I don't know how @ZEROibis has his server configured. He may not shuffle with standard deviation.
3)Team switching. Did anyone switch teams there? Or did people join after the shuffle?
Under no circumstances ever does shuffle say that teams are balanced. He does not have that kind of agency. In my opinion those teams are imbalanced because 1) The average hive score is not that close, and 2) the standard deviations are worlds apart.
Out of all my posts in this thread, this is what I want you to understand. It does matter, in this case, and all cases what the standard deviation is. You still only are looking at balanced by the averages. Instead look for a balanced game with near average skill and both teams have near standard deviations.
Even if the standard deviations were close, if they were a high number like 500 I would still think teams were not that balanced. I would only think that the shuffle made the best possible team combination with what it had.
You need to accept that standard deviation is apart of what you look for in balanced teams. It is a big part of what you are complaining about.
I don't think these teams you balanced are that much better than the other. They are better, but not that much better. Average skill is still pretty far apart. Standard deviation is closer but still way too high.
So here are the same players but I balanced them a little bit better than you. If you are wondering, I hand balancecd that the same way shine is supposed to. It really does depend on how it is configured on the server.
The averages are pretty close here. The standard deviations are moderately close. Would I call these teams well balanced? NO.
These teams are not well balanced because they can't be. The standard deviation is too high. You have a 3169 skill pro playing with a 90 skill rookie. You just can't balanced well with that combination of players.
>3000 marines going straight for the harvesters and you need a very good ambush and/or good packplay on alienside to stop him before he reach the natural harvester.
So while the 3/4 of the aliens try to kill the one marine in northtunnel , the other marines can cap the whole map wich end in an defense trap for aliens=game is basicly over after 5 min.
>3000 aliens going lerk or fade later and slaughter the marines, but these games takes longer cause these games make it to endgame most of the time with onos.
So same player on different sides has a different influx to the game.
Looks like the elo balancing is also asymetrish like NS2 itself.
Interisting, isnt it?
Even you have to admit that
Marine
3169
1632
1125
1079
358
90
Average: 1242.2 Standard Deviation: 1096.7
Alien
2701
1846
1840
1436
846
538
Average: 1096.7 Standard Deviation: 778.2
and
Marine
3169
1632
1125
1079
358
90
Average: 1242.2 Standard Deviation: 1096.7
Alien
2701
1846
1840
1436
846
538
Average: 1096.7 Standard Deviation: 778.2
Is a HELL of a lot better than
Marines
1846
1840
1632
1436
846
358
Average: 1326.3 Standard Deviation: 548:9
Aliens
3169
2701
1125
1079
538
90
Average 1450.3 Standard Deviation: 1113.9
It may not be perfectly balanced (or well balanced as you put it) but it's better than having both super high score players stacked on one team.
You wouldn't be saying I was "far above average" if you saw me play. Especially Marine with my averaging around 8-13% accuracy, struggling to keep an even kdr as I sit at the bottom of the scoreboard... My 1.7 kdr comes from primarily playing Alien and getting a lot of kills as Fade and Onos. (which is pretty damned easy)
At any rate my complaint mainly stems from the fact that these players will refuse to go to a server with people playing at their own skill level. Even after you point one out to them they'll stay on the server where the best player besides them has less than 1/2 the average kdr they have. They go Marine in every single game unless shuffle forces otherwise (and some of them even reconnect to stack Marine, refusing to play Alien at all) they never play defensively or command. Instead they're always rushing straight to the enemy team's naturals (going for the throat) where they sit and basically camp the spawn for as many kills as they can get.
They are literally SO far above everyone else that for all intents and purposes they may as well be using full on aimbots and wallhacks.. Which quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are.
Who are you to tell anybody where to play?
You want "pros" to play where? Only in matches? Only in gathers? What makes a "pro" to you?
Cuz I can tell you absolutely that if you alone joined a game with people entirely below your own 'non-pro' skill set, you probably would stomp them and probably have without even realizing it. It's unavoidable. I've played with you many times over the years, you're not a bad player at all. We all have to play shit games sometimes. So what makes a pro to you? The sheer fact that they're better than the rest of the server is not something they should be punished for, cuz in some cases, you're probably the "pro" on the server too.
You can't police pubs if you're not the admin of the server, so stop trying.
See. I agreed.
If you think you can hand craft teams based on their hive skill better than shuffle can make a team, you would be wrong. I have tried. The very best hand crafted I could make was still worse than the one shuffle put together.
So you have been complaining this whole time about a balance issue saying you don't trust the numbers, that shuffle does not work, but really you complaint stems from a social issue that is separate from balance and or shuffle.
I don't like this roundabout way you finally got to that point, but I do agree. There are some highly skilled players in our community that are very toxic.
They are also that much more skilled than me, and they stomp all over me too. Do I blame shuffle or the hive skill system? No.
PJSalt
Nobody is saying they can only play in matches or gathers..
But when DMD #2 has multiple 3000+ players with the lowest skilled players being over 1000.. And DMD #3 has a bunch of 0-1000 players with the highest one being around 1500. Are you telling me you support a 3000+ hive score 4.0+ kdr player joining #3 and refusing to join #2 because it's "easier to stomp on rookies"
I mean come on.
Oh and on the extremely rare occasions where I end up the best player in the server you know what I do? I check the browser for another server and if there isn't one then I go marines and I'm instantly on the same level as the 0-500 rookies. (seriously I'm THAT bad at marine)
A comment like that is a bit much. Looking at his hive profile, I am fairly certain he does not stomp rookies.
In the new hive data I have, the average hive skill for players who have played between January 1, 2016 and February 12, 2016 was 720. His hive profile was at 721. For a veteran he is below average skill, but compared to the entirety of the active player base he is pretty spot on average.
Sometimes you just wanna get some game in and you'll take it where you can. I can almost guarantee you that the person is quite a minority. Most very high skill players I encounter do not enjoy pubs. BUT, it offers a relief from the sometimes high stress games one may encounter in a match or even a gather.
Don't get me wrong, I think a few of em together on one team without divvying up for a fair game is shit, but you can't get worked up for pages worth of forum thread for the one or two odd guys here and there who just wanna play the game without needing to put a whole lot of care into it. Just pubs after all.
Btw, yes there are some cheatahs it seems
This answers my question how? What I want to know is how much does it take to make the sign change.
If you want a specific answer, @Ghoul would probably know.
Yes, I do want a specific answer. If your deduction is correct, 280 is barely anything at all and really should just be a single arrow, or we should go all the way up to at least five arrows both ways to get a better picture of what the server is like.
Please fucking don't
Sooo after this boring story, i really don't understand what is it's problem. His ">3k" problem looks more like a "hacker everywhere" "so much lag in this game" type or reaction. I just hope future decision for this game are not base upon these kind of individual.
Welcome to Mofo. Enjoy your stay.
Obviously you were ruining the game by planting your 3k ass in the chair. It's your fault he lost! You didn't carry when you were supposed to.
Actually i was surprised to have more win than defeat.
His first game on the field he dominated the **** out of everyone, then when the game was over made a personal attack against me saying "Aliens only lost because MoFo didn't try" implying that I could've helped the Alien team win against a 3600 player..
So I spent the next 5-6 games in "tryhard" mode for lack of a better term. I busted my ass trying to do everything I could to get kills and help my team win the game. Including one game where we were on Aliens, losing horribly so I started bile rushing their main (mr pro there jumped out of the chair and stopped me every time with mind numbing ease) and he started on with this nonsense about me "trolling" by bile rushing 5 times (and I only bile rushed 4 times, twice with another gorge)
He then continued with this garbage about how I'm playing bad on purpose, further implying that I'm some pro level player capable of matching him (when I'm getting my ass handed to me by the 1000-2000 score players on the field)
So to him I'm a "troll" because I'm not a high skilled player. (oh wait, I forgot I'm totally a pro 3k level player playing bad on purpose.) It's elitist rejects like this that drive people away from this awesome game.
Oh and I should note.. the game before he joined was fine, a balanced game that went back and forth.. The two games I played after he left were also fairly balanced, went back and forth.. The 6 or so games he was in the server were all pure ****...
Who can't stop a gorge with ease? Its not like gorges are hard to hit and doing it constantly just means he expects you, and is frankly, just a suicide move and quite stupid. You have a team. Maybe work with them instead of trying to hero your way to a win?
And really, the 3600 player can't actually do much in the chair. Even if he lands perfect meds and has a perfect tech path, he can't do anything if his team doesn't win engagements or do useful shit. With the average pub "even" teams, if the top player on the team is in the chair, I expect that team to lose. It was one game he fielded. What about the rest?
The first two times I bile rushed I wasn't expecting to kill much (if anything) just force a beacon. The second two times were with everyone on the team who would go (which was one person) so obviously we didn't have much communication or coordination. I wasn't trying to "hero" my way to a win, just doing the only thing I could think of to help.. Throwing myself into the meat grinder near our main along with the rest of our team wouldn't have accomplished anything. A beacon would've given my team room to breathe, and possibly a chance to retake territory.
And as far as a 3600 player not being able to do much in the chair.. I respectfully disagree. He commanded Marine in all but two games, and he won every game except one... As Marine comm he rushed upgrades, was spot on with meds, and killed us with arcs every time. The game he won as Alien comm was the longest one during his stay on the server, but Marines still lost pretty badly.. The only game he lost was the one where he got stuck with me, and his commanding that game was sub-par at best. (it was also the only game he wouldn't jump out to help defend main)
Now that I think about it with the way he mentioned joining the server to "see what this was about", dominated the first game (to get my attention), made the personal attack (to piss me off), then commanded perfectly every game except the one he was placed with me... wrapped up with how he accused me of "trolling" by "playing bad on purpose" it looks like the only reason he joined that server was to troll me.
Of course with the elitist attitude he displayed that doesn't surprise me.
before we start i want to state that overly stacked teams will never lead to fun so don't get me wrong here like in your example a 3k guy and a 2.7k guy should never be on the same team when there is only ~1.5k guys left
before you read this: I am a very toxic person so some of this might sound harsh to an average person when it looks normal to me so i want to state that i don't want to attack someone here but just try to get some clarifications in and show you some stuff you might not have thought about. this is not ment as an offense at all
ok now to the important stuff:
IMHO you are doing some major misassumptions here (by you i'm not addressing a single person but everyone who falls in the category of highskill players are ruining my game or i'm to bad to compete with better players so i get rekt most of the time)
i hope that will help you to calm down a bit. and I'll just say it again just in case someone hasn't understand it yet. this is no offense on anybody but just stating some points where IMHO you are wrong.
PS: I don't think bootcamp solves all the problems but it's a step in the right driection
ftfy
@Absurdon, well put together post, but dont expect as much logic returned.
If he is on marineteam i tell my teammates to callout his position if possible.
And if they doing this it ends in some good packplay or good ambushes against him very often
These moments are rewarding even if we lose the game.
On the other side it can be very frustrating if noone saying something and everyone is nonstop jumping into his rifle alone.
If he is on alienside, it can be very rewarding to kill his lerk or fade with a good trap or simple cause good aim and he was to greedy.
On the other side it can be frustrating if noone of the team can land a single shot on his fade/lerk and you dont get meds in needed situations so he can slaughter the marineteam very easy.
One >3000 is indeed a challenge, but with good communication/packplay/resbiting you can counter him.
Two >3000 is something most pubplayers cant handle.
So saying one >3000 is ruining rounds is just bullsh***
Sounds just like the @Tinki I know and love
A 3600 player in the chair means 400 average points gone in a 9 person team. In an average pub, that is a third of the team. His team should be vulnerable. In most such cases, he should lose because his team can't aim rather than you losing because of "meds".
But whatever, your problem probably isn't skill with your kdr. I have words I wish to express but don't know how to say it politely