One way or another this is clearly a very polarizing change.
There's the saying "don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness." For a married couple, this saying can work. However, on a professional level, this is not an appropriate way to implement such a big change. More thought should have been put into it, as a lot of the arguments in this thread are echoing.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
One thing I think is clear. This doesn't scale well to different sized rooms. The light emitted by each structure is constant sized, but the area that is darkened can be arbitrarily big depending on the map. Either structures should only dim the lights within a radius, or the lighting should be based on structures per unit area rather than just a count of structures.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited March 2016
IMO all that needed to be done was decrease the red lighting to not be so obnoxious and add a single light to cysts, harvesters, and hives. Nothing complicated or with huge changes.
And then implement a fixed AV to be less obtrusive as well.
You just keep going on and on about what should be while responding to my posts with arguments.. when all I've ever done is outline what IS, to provide clear facts for everyone to digest.
It's been pretty tiring, like you're not even reading my posts and just looking to express yourself.
So here, I'll give my opinion so you finally have something to work with (not that I really want to engage with you on such a subjective subject) as what "should be" :
I personally like that your example has the area between Shipping and Observation dark.. it clearly denotes alien presence ahead... which is the entire point behind this change!
I originally was of the same opinion here as some others, where I thought that actual structures should be what emits light.. but the issue with that is that it does not draw a clear line where alien presence is located (ex: all of hub could be cysted but only the RT in server is lit? ). The way things are now, when you see darkness you are entering into the beginning of alien territory.. whether they've placed structures there or 3 rooms further, it doesn't matter because all it's doing is denoting the edge of the territory and their investment.
For all the buffs you can claim that this provides to aliens, you have to admit it also clearly shows where on the map they are investing Tres (Whether they utilize it or not).
IMO all that needed to be done was decrease the red lighting to not be so obnoxious and add a single light to cysts, harvesters, and hives. Nothing complicated or with huge changes.
And then implement a fixed AV to be less obtrusive as well.
I don't think that would accomplish the goal. Territories held by Marines and then lost looked different from territories always held by aliens, which this is intended to fix.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
edited March 2016
Thank you all for the feedback, it's been...interesting to read and receive directly. I certainly never intended for this change to be so, divisive.
I'll be taking steps to allow servers to disable the feature. I will be making changes to mitigate the single-cyst issue, as that was an oversight on my part. I'll also be tying the additional particle FX to user settings. I'll post more details once the changes are done and tested.
You just keep going on and on about what should be while responding to my posts with arguments.. when all I've ever done is outline what IS, to provide clear facts for everyone to digest.
It's been pretty tiring, like you're not even reading my posts and just looking to express yourself.
Yes I am suggesting the things that need to change with it's implementation which you seem to be ignoring and going back to how it currently works. I know how it works. I've played it, that's why I came to the forums to discuss/complain about it's shoddy implementation and why it outright sucks in multiple situations.
So here, I'll give my opinion so you finally have something to work with (not that I really want to engage with you on such a subjective subject) as what "should be" :
I personally like that your example has the area between Shipping and Observation dark.. it clearly denotes alien presence ahead... which is the entire point behind this change!
As someone who shows up to defend UWE if you cant be bothered to debate a change that many people have issue with then why do you even bother posting.
The "area between Shipping and Observation" is the very south section of south tunnels. The area between hub and logistics is not between shipping and observation. North of south tunnels is not between shipping and observation.
Here let me demonstrate. The green areas clearly show shipping and observation, the area between them is shown in red, this is decided drawing multiple lines between the areas to determine where the "area between Shipping and Observation" actually lies. This area pretty much follows the route between "between Shipping and Observation"
Lets compare that area to the area which is actually darkened by the lighting change (this is the blue bit btw, I labelled it to help).
Now im not sure how you determine that blue area to be between Shipping and Observation, so enlighten me. because when that "alien presence" consists of two team resources of cysts, it's stupid that it's even dark in the first place, so the area between doesn't even matter. (See previous posts as to why)
I originally was of the same opinion here as some others, where I thought that actual structures should be what emits light.. but the issue with that is that it does not draw a clear line where alien presence is located (ex: all of hub could be cysted but only the RT in server is lit? ).
We aren't even discussing what structures emit light. That wasn't mentioned... We're on about the room lighting?!
The way things are now, when you see darkness you are entering into the beginning of alien territory.. whether they've placed structures there or 3 rooms further, it doesn't matter because all it's doing is denoting the edge of the territory and their investment.
Yes, but when that darkness is multiple seconds walk away from the actual alien structures it doesn't make any sense that a room is darker, the room would be darker than marine controlled areas because you dont have power built in the room anyway, so the areas between marine and alien controlled areas would be neutral, because two cysts do not deserve to be "alien territory"
For all the buffs you can claim that this provides to aliens, you have to admit it also clearly shows where on the map they are investing Tres (Whether they utilize it or not).
That's common knowledge to almost anyone, except a new room that is shaded (which is now totally given away) But for those of us that know these things due to team work and team play it tells you nothing new. Which is why we just want to have it adjusted (considerably) or something we can disable (which is harder than it needs to be due to forced extentions)
edit: @McGlaspie gets it, thank you. You can probably ignore the post now
As someone who shows up to defend UWE if you cant be bothered to debate a change that many people have issue with then why do you even bother posting.
To clearly explain how things are working when some are apparently confused.
The example in this thread was that a player asked "Are cysts good or bad?" given the state of cyst lightning. I answer with the factual workings.
Then @simba comes in after misreading what I wrote and goes "that isn't true!" and gets 6 agrees.. further confusing the situation for others. I tell him he didn't read what I wrote correctly.
Then you come in @Cr4zyb4st4rd and say I didn't read correctly and when attempting to correct me, you literally write the same exact thing I originally responded with.
So why do I bother posting? Again, to clearly explain how things are working when some are apparently confused - if that wasn't clear before, I hope the order of events I just recounted help clarify.
Lastly, I see your point better with this new picture, and I do agree it should be based on range not an entire room of whose portions could be entirely unoccupied - but as far as I understand it.. that's technically very expensive to do and is why it was done this way in the first place. I could be wrong, though. Shrug.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Can't wait to see new players who are used to the new lighting come into "pro" servers and ask why the rooms are so red. I hope you guys meet a balance somewhere because having two different lighting systems is just going to confuse people.
eh, there is already 'lowlights' and normal lights in vanilla. I think most comp players would just be happier if it was brighter overall when 'alien controlled'... Not necessarily the old system back (the lack of red is a good improvement).
I just hope this is something that is only disabled on competitive servers, and that ALL of the pub servers leave it on.
And for the love of god don't leave it as a client side toggle. I don't want it to be a handicap because everyone else has it off (which would force me to turn it off, pretty much like infestation does now)
It has been pretty sweet not having the gamma boosters spotting aliens so ridiculously easy.
Thank you all for the feedback, it's been...interesting to read and receive directly. I certainly never intended for this change to be so, divisive.
I'll be taking steps to allow servers to disable the feature. I will be making changes to mitigate the single-cyst issue, as that was an oversight on my part. I'll also be tying the additional particle FX to user settings. I'll post more details once the changes are done and tested.
I've thought more about it, and I think you can create an alien structure "weight". Each object has a weight. Once weight > threshhold in a room, it gets dark and becomes "alien".
I might be the only person that plays with infestion set to max .... >.>
Nope, I do it, too. Because frankly the times infestation covers up anything is so rare that it's negligible edge cases compared to the times I lose because I screw up out of my own fault.
I do not like the new lighting. I am always against things that heavily affect gameplay just for the sake of immersion. Immersion is nice for a week or so but after awhile it all fades and comes down to gameplay. I listed a couple random thoughts about the lighting.
- I play with every setting on low so i can enjoy a smooth experience and brighten everything to help spot my enemies. I would rather see power nodes/cysts go away entirely before having them affect gameplay more.
- With this change, imo, it now forces aliens to use alien vision, if they werent already. So all that pretty immersion is now wasted on 50% of those who play. So why do it? Did the aliens need a buff?
- Flashlights are now a necessity in dark rooms. Which is fine, but they give away not only your position but basically decreases your FOV to your flashlight beam. On the contrary aliens have a full view with no limitations or downsides.
- Werent we trying to get away from snowball mechanics? If the room is already so alien infested why do they need another advantage. A heavily marine occupied room doesnt hold the same. It isnt like alien vision stops working or they can see marines less.
I just dont see why this was even on the "to do list" I appreciate McGlaspie's work and i think this would be amazing in a single player campaign. I just dont think it fits in an FPS multiplayer game. I should be fighting other players, not the environment and before someone states that it is an FPS/RTS i would refer them to Flayra's post a long time ago that said it was an FPS first and foremost.
If it must stay i would suggest the following:
- Scan illuminates the room to "marine controlled" lighting while it lasts.
- Alien's eyes glow or some low sound is emitted when it is on.
- Add a flare "grenade" or apply the ability to one that already exists
Again, im not bashing the work done or intentions. It just isnt for me and im glad comp with get a toggle. Thank you for the continued work and progression made on this game we all love and/or cant seem to move on from hehe.
Another point about the flashlight is that it appears through walls and around corners, allowing the aliens to pinpoint marine positions around corners without the use of parasite.
I personally like that your example has the area between Shipping and Observation dark.. it clearly denotes alien presence ahead... which is the entire point behind this change!
Can you guys add dramatic and frightening single player music when I enter one of these areas too? And maybe add "heavy breathing sounds" from my marine because he is frightened? And maybe make my gun shoot not as accurately since my hands are shaking because "ALIENS AHEAD!"
The flashlight has always went through certain walls allowing aliens to see where marines are. Random but i'm just curious as to why this hasn't been fixed yet?
The flashlight has always went through certain walls allowing aliens to see where marines are. Random but i'm just curious as to why this hasn't been fixed yet?
When you step into a room and there a crag, whip, cysts, and a shift...oh, and maybe even a hive, wouldn't one assume it alien territory despite the lighting? - Just sayin.
The maps are so small that if you can't look at your map and know where the enemy is or what room they occupy, then there's a problem. You don't need lighting to determine where the enemy could be. Besides, just because a room is dark with a few cysts doesn't mean aliens are anywhere near that room. They could be completely on the other side of the map. Hence the room would be....umm, unoccupied.
I can see where aliens have expanded to...it's called infestation. You don't need special lighting to go along with infestation. As it's been said, why not add dramatic and frightening single player music to go along with the infestation and new territorial lighting?
Hey, here's and idea. Why not "add" terrifying holograms that creep out of the walls and floors or exorcist-style flashes of dead marines in your entire FOV when stepping across territories. Talk about immersion!!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
For those of you who run with everything on low, gamma jacked up, and would run white walls and forced models if you could : These changes are not for you.
Lucky for you, there's always a place for you to play without these - especially now that the extension has been reverted for the time being.
But I do sincerely hope they get adopted into as many pubs as possible in the future, and that we continue to add "omg immersion" features for newer players... if nothing else but to read the ironic criticism of features unrelated to your competitive desires alongside comments of how competitive players are so such victims because they do nothing wrong.
For those of you who run with everything on low, gamma jacked up, and would run white walls and forced models if you could : These changes are not for you.
Lucky for you, there's always a place for you to play without these - especially now that the extension has been reverted for the time being.
But I do sincerely hope they get adopted into as many pubs as possible in the future, and that we continue to add "omg immersion" features for newer players... if nothing else but to read the ironic criticism of features unrelated to your competitive desires alongside comments of how competitive players are so such victims because they do nothing wrong.
Please, just stop contributing to this "us vs them" mentality. We're all playing the same game, can't we just get along?
For those of you who run with everything on low, gamma jacked up, and would run white walls and forced models if you could : These changes are not for you.
Lucky for you, there's always a place for you to play without these - especially now that the extension has been reverted for the time being.
But I do sincerely hope they get adopted into as many pubs as possible in the future, and that we continue to add "omg immersion" features for newer players... if nothing else but to read the ironic criticism of features unrelated to your competitive desires alongside comments of how competitive players are so such victims because they do nothing wrong.
Please, just stop contributing to this "us vs them" mentality. We're all playing the same game, can't we just get along?
For the moment, until the mods comes back and everyone ignores the vanilla game again.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2016
Look, I'd love to. That was pretty much the entire point of my post. I was pointing out how the "us vs them" gets generated in the first place... was this really not clear?
If you can't see how sharp criticism of something that does not pertain to you - yet others still enjoy - creates a divide by essentially directing where development goes (atmos is now reverted) and how this generates resentment between two camps that have different desires... then the cycle is never going to be broken.
"Please just disable it for competitive play" was a very reasonable request. "OMG Immersion, just add scary music next for the casuals" is just inciting and continues the cycle.
Start from page 1 of this thread and begin taking a tally. It's not something that's being made up, on page one alone I count 12 positive posts from pub players and 1 negative, but 4/4 negative posts coming from competitive players, ( redacted because it detracts from my point and isn't entirely accurate) with some playing the #immersion mocking card. And the thread only gets worse from there in that regard.
Voice your feedback and criticism, of course... but mocking those that enjoy said changes is what generates this divide and if you don't recognize it amongst yourselves and cease it, then this will never end.
Comments
There's the saying "don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness." For a married couple, this saying can work. However, on a professional level, this is not an appropriate way to implement such a big change. More thought should have been put into it, as a lot of the arguments in this thread are echoing.
And then implement a fixed AV to be less obtrusive as well.
You just keep going on and on about what should be while responding to my posts with arguments.. when all I've ever done is outline what IS, to provide clear facts for everyone to digest.
It's been pretty tiring, like you're not even reading my posts and just looking to express yourself.
So here, I'll give my opinion so you finally have something to work with (not that I really want to engage with you on such a subjective subject) as what "should be" :
I personally like that your example has the area between Shipping and Observation dark.. it clearly denotes alien presence ahead... which is the entire point behind this change!
I originally was of the same opinion here as some others, where I thought that actual structures should be what emits light.. but the issue with that is that it does not draw a clear line where alien presence is located (ex: all of hub could be cysted but only the RT in server is lit? ). The way things are now, when you see darkness you are entering into the beginning of alien territory.. whether they've placed structures there or 3 rooms further, it doesn't matter because all it's doing is denoting the edge of the territory and their investment.
For all the buffs you can claim that this provides to aliens, you have to admit it also clearly shows where on the map they are investing Tres (Whether they utilize it or not).
Now how do we turn it off for the competitive servers so I can get back to playing a competitive FPS and not an immersion simulator?
I don't think that would accomplish the goal. Territories held by Marines and then lost looked different from territories always held by aliens, which this is intended to fix.
I'll be taking steps to allow servers to disable the feature. I will be making changes to mitigate the single-cyst issue, as that was an oversight on my part. I'll also be tying the additional particle FX to user settings. I'll post more details once the changes are done and tested.
Yes I am suggesting the things that need to change with it's implementation which you seem to be ignoring and going back to how it currently works. I know how it works. I've played it, that's why I came to the forums to discuss/complain about it's shoddy implementation and why it outright sucks in multiple situations.
As someone who shows up to defend UWE if you cant be bothered to debate a change that many people have issue with then why do you even bother posting.
The "area between Shipping and Observation" is the very south section of south tunnels. The area between hub and logistics is not between shipping and observation. North of south tunnels is not between shipping and observation.
Here let me demonstrate. The green areas clearly show shipping and observation, the area between them is shown in red, this is decided drawing multiple lines between the areas to determine where the "area between Shipping and Observation" actually lies. This area pretty much follows the route between "between Shipping and Observation"
Lets compare that area to the area which is actually darkened by the lighting change (this is the blue bit btw, I labelled it to help).
Now im not sure how you determine that blue area to be between Shipping and Observation, so enlighten me. because when that "alien presence" consists of two team resources of cysts, it's stupid that it's even dark in the first place, so the area between doesn't even matter. (See previous posts as to why)
We aren't even discussing what structures emit light. That wasn't mentioned... We're on about the room lighting?!
Yes, but when that darkness is multiple seconds walk away from the actual alien structures it doesn't make any sense that a room is darker, the room would be darker than marine controlled areas because you dont have power built in the room anyway, so the areas between marine and alien controlled areas would be neutral, because two cysts do not deserve to be "alien territory"
That's common knowledge to almost anyone, except a new room that is shaded (which is now totally given away) But for those of us that know these things due to team work and team play it tells you nothing new. Which is why we just want to have it adjusted (considerably) or something we can disable (which is harder than it needs to be due to forced extentions)
edit: @McGlaspie gets it, thank you. You can probably ignore the post now
The example in this thread was that a player asked "Are cysts good or bad?" given the state of cyst lightning. I answer with the factual workings.
Then @simba comes in after misreading what I wrote and goes "that isn't true!" and gets 6 agrees.. further confusing the situation for others. I tell him he didn't read what I wrote correctly.
Then you come in @Cr4zyb4st4rd and say I didn't read correctly and when attempting to correct me, you literally write the same exact thing I originally responded with.
So why do I bother posting? Again, to clearly explain how things are working when some are apparently confused - if that wasn't clear before, I hope the order of events I just recounted help clarify.
Ahem... the post you clicked "Agree" to : Cysts don't affect room lighting, only bigger alien structures do
Lastly, I see your point better with this new picture, and I do agree it should be based on range not an entire room of whose portions could be entirely unoccupied - but as far as I understand it.. that's technically very expensive to do and is why it was done this way in the first place. I could be wrong, though. Shrug.
Thank you mc g
And for the love of god don't leave it as a client side toggle. I don't want it to be a handicap because everyone else has it off (which would force me to turn it off, pretty much like infestation does now)
It has been pretty sweet not having the gamma boosters spotting aliens so ridiculously easy.
I've thought more about it, and I think you can create an alien structure "weight". Each object has a weight. Once weight > threshhold in a room, it gets dark and becomes "alien".
Nope, I do it, too. Because frankly the times infestation covers up anything is so rare that it's negligible edge cases compared to the times I lose because I screw up out of my own fault.
I do not like the new lighting. I am always against things that heavily affect gameplay just for the sake of immersion. Immersion is nice for a week or so but after awhile it all fades and comes down to gameplay. I listed a couple random thoughts about the lighting.
- I play with every setting on low so i can enjoy a smooth experience and brighten everything to help spot my enemies. I would rather see power nodes/cysts go away entirely before having them affect gameplay more.
- With this change, imo, it now forces aliens to use alien vision, if they werent already. So all that pretty immersion is now wasted on 50% of those who play. So why do it? Did the aliens need a buff?
- Flashlights are now a necessity in dark rooms. Which is fine, but they give away not only your position but basically decreases your FOV to your flashlight beam. On the contrary aliens have a full view with no limitations or downsides.
- Werent we trying to get away from snowball mechanics? If the room is already so alien infested why do they need another advantage. A heavily marine occupied room doesnt hold the same. It isnt like alien vision stops working or they can see marines less.
I just dont see why this was even on the "to do list" I appreciate McGlaspie's work and i think this would be amazing in a single player campaign. I just dont think it fits in an FPS multiplayer game. I should be fighting other players, not the environment and before someone states that it is an FPS/RTS i would refer them to Flayra's post a long time ago that said it was an FPS first and foremost.
If it must stay i would suggest the following:
- Scan illuminates the room to "marine controlled" lighting while it lasts.
- Alien's eyes glow or some low sound is emitted when it is on.
- Add a flare "grenade" or apply the ability to one that already exists
Again, im not bashing the work done or intentions. It just isnt for me and im glad comp with get a toggle. Thank you for the continued work and progression made on this game we all love and/or cant seem to move on from hehe.
Can you guys add dramatic and frightening single player music when I enter one of these areas too? And maybe add "heavy breathing sounds" from my marine because he is frightened? And maybe make my gun shoot not as accurately since my hands are shaking because "ALIENS AHEAD!"
Because nobody uses flashlights?
The maps are so small that if you can't look at your map and know where the enemy is or what room they occupy, then there's a problem. You don't need lighting to determine where the enemy could be. Besides, just because a room is dark with a few cysts doesn't mean aliens are anywhere near that room. They could be completely on the other side of the map. Hence the room would be....umm, unoccupied.
I can see where aliens have expanded to...it's called infestation. You don't need special lighting to go along with infestation. As it's been said, why not add dramatic and frightening single player music to go along with the infestation and new territorial lighting?
Hey, here's and idea. Why not "add" terrifying holograms that creep out of the walls and floors or exorcist-style flashes of dead marines in your entire FOV when stepping across territories. Talk about immersion!!
Lucky for you, there's always a place for you to play without these - especially now that the extension has been reverted for the time being.
But I do sincerely hope they get adopted into as many pubs as possible in the future, and that we continue to add "omg immersion" features for newer players... if nothing else but to read the ironic criticism of features unrelated to your competitive desires alongside comments of how competitive players are so such victims because they do nothing wrong.
Please, just stop contributing to this "us vs them" mentality. We're all playing the same game, can't we just get along?
For the moment, until the mods comes back and everyone ignores the vanilla game again.
If you can't see how sharp criticism of something that does not pertain to you - yet others still enjoy - creates a divide by essentially directing where development goes (atmos is now reverted) and how this generates resentment between two camps that have different desires... then the cycle is never going to be broken.
"Please just disable it for competitive play" was a very reasonable request.
"OMG Immersion, just add scary music next for the casuals" is just inciting and continues the cycle.
Start from page 1 of this thread and begin taking a tally. It's not something that's being made up, on page one alone I count 12 positive posts from pub players and 1 negative, but 4/4 negative posts coming from competitive players, ( redacted because it detracts from my point and isn't entirely accurate) with some playing the #immersion mocking card. And the thread only gets worse from there in that regard.
Voice your feedback and criticism, of course... but mocking those that enjoy said changes is what generates this divide and if you don't recognize it amongst yourselves and cease it, then this will never end.