I like it because it adds something else to the game that "Could" make playing more fun and better, But there is alot of Flaws, as in New players just feeding marines kills after kills,
I think that a somewhat "Bounty" way could do better, so if you kill a skulk that has just spawned you would get 0 res, if you kill a skulk that has be alive for quite some time, has quite a few kills you gain a % of the Score you get for kill him, same would apply to other lifeforms,
Meaning if your palying well and you die, the other team gets rewarded for either
1. Teaming up and killing you with good teamwork and play.
2. Getting the lucky "Ambush"
There for this could promot better teamwork for both marines and aliens.
Quick example. a score of 25+ could reward something like 0.25 RPK
35 = 0.35 RPK
50 = 0.50 RPK
and so on,
And a big Tres reward if you manage to kill someone that has a score of 100 + you could get 5 tres for this,
Off course ideas need tweaking, but something else.
^I like that you came up with an idea around the new player feeding issue people may be fearing. I'm not sure if that is the best way to go though. Let's say you got a big bonus for killing a player that was doing well/alive for awhile - it's good if you team groups up and kill him/her, but you might sacrifice the map or other things to do so. Not sure if that should be a main focus, trying to find one player on the map. Also, sometimes you don't need to kill a good fade for example, you just need to keep putting so much damage into him/her that they can't do enough damage to effect the game.
My idea is to make this comeback mechanic very marine bias. I think the game works pretty well for aliens in pubs if they get past the early game, and aren't down big. Marines seem to have trouble if they don't have a good start. Aliens also seem to have more advantage in a long, evenly matched game. This mechanic isn't going to stop the games where a couple marines wipe the whole alien team at the start and the skulks have no chance. Or the games where the marines can't hit the skulks at all and are dying easily. Those games will still be part of ns2. I would like to see if this mechanic can help the games that aren't on those extremes.
Perhaps aliens should only get this assist when marines are on 6 or more rts, which means marines are doing really well. I think marines need more assist mid to late game and giving them additional tech options for killing the enemy might make games more fun. If aliens are down big, this could give them some additional tres which would help them get up another hive or try something to make the game more interesting.
Losing your carry fade is not already enough of a hit to the alien team ?
The idea has potential don't get me wrong but it completely breaks immersion.
Plus it rewards going for the kills instead of going for the RT which is simply not NS2.
Comeback can already happen late game on both sides anyway.
The issue is more about people waiting afk for the round to end early on because stacked teams / frustration.
I'd rather have a solid auto-balance system to get rid of the stacking issue by switching people around to balance teams on the fly.
@ShamelessCookie I don't want to tell you how to run your own server, but could you PLEASE put a warning label on that you are using experimental balance mods like this? Last time I checked the people there knew absolutely nothing about this going on.
I did see a message immediately when the game started, but I don't feel that's really enough.
It would require changing elo so people dont instantly disconnect when they are switched to a losing team.
3 factor instead of just 1, win/loss ratio + kill/death ratio + experience (game time) /3
Also spread the rookies evenly between each team without counting them in the shuffle calculation.
It would require changing elo so people dont instantly disconnect when they are switched to a losing team.
3 factor instead of just 1, win/loss ratio + kill/death ratio + experience (game time) /3
Also spread the rookies evenly between each team without counting them in the shuffle calculation.
I don't see how switching teams mid game in ns2 would be fun or would work. A huge part of the game is pres and pres for alien lifeforms. If you are switching people around mid round, I don't think it works well in this type of game well.
The initial poster, despite getting a lot of (unnecessary) hate and backlash, has sparked an interesting discussion, so thank you.
Let's think about how an Alien team can bring back a game from the edge of loss, but still focus on RTs (as opposed to kills), which seems to be the general consensus on what needs to be done.
We all know that it's easier for Marines to drop RTs, which is why theirs are more expensive. No keeping a cyst chain alive whilst the enemy are stomping in your base, and no expensive drifter to (a) get out your base, and (b) keep alive to worry about either. Plus, the Harvester build time is SO slow. So, why not make it a little easier for end-game Aliens to gain some quick resources, as usually once their Harvesters are lost and they're trapped in a corner, they're not getting out. Their only option is a sneaky tunnel and a base push, we see it time and time again, and quite frankly, it's getting old.
My initial thought is some kind of "infect" that a skulk/gorge can perform to a Marine RT effectively covering it in some kind of infestation, causing it to now provide resources to the Alien team instead. Maybe the infestation from a gorge tunnel could perform this by default. This saves the aliens from having to spend time and lifeforms destroying the RT and then rebuilding a Harvester, but they will still need to defend the tunnel entrance. It would probably be a 3 biomass ability, so it can be performed on one hive, but must be researched, and isn't available from the very start of the game.
This now allows Aliens a quick and simpler way to gain faster personal/team resources, but also a simple way for Marines to stop them (destroy the tunnel). The Marines counter is also something very obvious and simple - people know to destroy the tunnel anyway. As a by product, we won't just be seeing gorge tunnels placed right outside a base any more for the same-ol' base rush, but they could be placed at any RT location, allowing the Aliens to take back a tech point and pull the game back bit-by-bit, as opposed to a single "can we chew the observatory quicker than the commander can beacon?" moment. Thoughts?
Look, the main reason that games like Dota and LoL don't snowball early as fast as this game does is because they have a sort of "buffer" that prevents them from taking as much advantage early on, with diminishing returns as heroes become more powerful. In the case of those 2 games the buffer would primarily be the towers. Although NS2 does have extactors and power nodes to help act as a buffer for res income, players are required to gain control of that area and build the buffers first to secure res income, hence why early game can be so important. This is the problem we should be addressing.
I don't see how switching teams mid game in ns2 would be fun or would work. A huge part of the game is pres and pres for alien lifeforms. If you are switching people around mid round, I don't think it works well in this type of game well.
But what about people leaving/switching team midgame?
Endgame teams often have a rather high skill unbalance meaning brainless frag games.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I really ended up liking this mod when commanding as a marine.
It felt FUN to always have a chance with extra Tres .. I was far less demotivated and as such did not surrender.
Late game and only 2 RTs? Fear not, you can scan, cat pack, Robo and rebuild PGs.
However, as an alien it felt almost non existent / unhelpful / still unfun.
I believe Aliens need to be given Pres spread across the team instead of Tres.
Also, Exos need to be able to be dropped by commander again.
I really ended up liking this mod when commanding as a marine.
It felt FUN to always have a chance with extra Tres .. I was far less demotivated and as such did not surrender.
Late game and only 2 RTs? Fear not, you can scan, cat pack, Robo and rebuild PGs.
However, as an alien it felt almost non existent / unhelpful / still unfun.
I believe Aliens need to be given Pres spread across the team instead of Tres.
Also, Exos need to be able to be dropped by commander again.
That's cool that you think it was more fun (which is key) on marines. I like your idea for aliens, I don't know if having the ability to build another hive or something is going to make a big enough difference for an alien team getting crushed. Giving Pres spread across the team instead of Tres should be attempted. It would have to be tweaked a bunch probably to make sure aliens aren't able to get life forms too fast, but still gives them a chance when they are way down.
@Shameless, I see the average game time went up by about a minute. I am curious what the minimum and maximum game times were. Did your mod decrease the amount of short games and or increase the amount of long games?
The only discernible impact at the moment is that mid-range games are pushed out a bit with the mod turned on. Very short games and very long games appear unaffected.
Looking at the stats, it seems round length has become near equal with a larger sample size. I find that surprising actually. I expected games to last longer wish higher comeback potential.
Qualitatively it looks like it is working entirety as designed. If anything I am interested in qualitative information. IronHorse gave some nice positive feedback. Has anybody else gave good feedback. Has there been any real negative feedback on how it plays?
The people that play on TF that are aware of it's existence have pretty much all given positive or neutral feedback about it.
Positives have come from commanders who felt they at least had a chance to turn games around after winning engagements and getting a bunch of kills - even if they didn't actually comeback to win.
Neutral from players who, when the mechanic was explained to them, said "Oh, interesting. There have been a few comebacks on this server lately."
I haven't heard any negative feedback, but then again, most people don't know it exists.
If anything, the mod highlights the importance of late game play, which I feel makes the game much less of a grind where one team leans on the other for 20 minutes until they collapse.
The people that play on TF that are aware of it's existence have pretty much all given positive or neutral feedback about it.
Positives have come from commanders who felt they at least had a chance to turn games around after winning engagements and getting a bunch of kills - even if they didn't actually comeback to win.
Neutral from players who, when the mechanic was explained to them, said "Oh, interesting. There have been a few comebacks on this server lately."
I haven't heard any negative feedback, but then again, most people don't know it exists.
If anything, the mod highlights the importance of late game play, which I feel makes the game much less of a grind where one team leans on the other for 20 minutes until they collapse.
Probably because the people who know it and don't like it refuse to play on your server anymore, like me. Such a shame because I liked the 8v8 with spec. Of course the greatest damage potential comes from people learning about it and deciding gameplay around it, because that leads to feeding, farming, and harassment of players. Of course you can't really seriously hope to balance the game based on secret mechanics either.
I refuse to play a game where dying as a skulk or an LMG marine does more damage to my team than sitting in base for 20 seconds.
I refuse to play a game where dying as a skulk or an LMG marine does more damage to my team than sitting in base for 20 seconds.
Dying has always done more damage than AFKing. You consume an egg. You hog an Infantry Portal. You lose map position. You let the enemy know that your team has one less player alive.
I appreciate your feedback, but so far I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that this mechanic is not good for the health of, at the very least, 8v8 games.
I would be curious how this effects the very lowest and highest skill levels. You can not test rookies easily but it might be possible to get some high level gathers.
I refuse to play a game where dying as a skulk or an LMG marine does more damage to my team than sitting in base for 20 seconds.
Dying has always done more damage than AFKing. You consume an egg. You hog an Infantry Portal. You lose map position. You let the enemy know that your team has one less player alive.
I appreciate your feedback, but so far I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that this mechanic is not good for the health of, at the very least, 8v8 games.
you also pull a marine out of position, make him spend ammo, damage a structure, strip some armor. Unless the whole team is dying at once the eggs and IPs aren't an issue.
But again, the problem is how people play it. It's the leading reason why MOBAs are all so "toxic". Why people there would rather ban a new player than give him a chance to learn. We don't do that in NS2 because deaths DON'T matter. But they do now on your server.
I understand where you're coming from, @sotanaht , I really do. I would say that the NS2 community calling MOBA communities toxic is the pot calling the kettle black. NS2 has withered from its highs because of horrendous toxicity to rookies and even other veterans.
But, in any case, the opponents to this particular idea seem almost entirely philosophical ("I just won't play that way"), while the proponents seem to be almost entirely scientific ("I've played it, and it's great").
The mod will be disabled later tonight, once we pass the 500 game mark with the mod on. I'd like to do a complete A-B-A analysis with 500 games in each and determine, based on winrate balance and player anecdotes, which experience is more enjoyable.
I understand where you're coming from, @sotanaht , I really do. I would say that the NS2 community calling MOBA communities toxic is the pot calling the kettle black. NS2 has withered from its highs because of horrendous toxicity to rookies and even other veterans.
You say that, but I have NEVER seen anyone kicked for being bad. Even hoshiwara1021, whom I'm fairly certain is either a weird troll or some kind of experimental bot, is never successfully kicked. Pros are more likely, but you can't say that a 4000 score doesn't ruin the game for a server full of 1000s. It still doesn't go through often.
I of course was kicked and banned the very first time I tried to play DotA.
EDIT: I just want to re-emphasize that player-behavior depending on what they know, or what they think is happening, can have far greater impact on gameplay than what is actually happening. The perception of feeding and the culture around avoiding it would likely have a greater impact on game stats than the mod itself.
The mod had no effect on average round length.
Average round length in all cases was between 16 and 17 minutes.
The mod improved winrate balance
The winrate was closest to 50/50 during the test case, with a slight favor to marines. Both of the control cases favored Aliens by a wider margin than during the test.
(subjective/anecdotal) The mod had a positive effect on commander morale
Commanders seemed less likely to give up if their team was getting kills, and had resources trickling in to spend on tech and drops.
Are people incapable to do the objectives nowadays, so they need a kill counter?
(I can't discuss it seriously because this thing discourages my yolo playstyle on the mental level, regardless of the positive or negative effects of this system)
The only reason that a losing team that accomplishes a teamwipe should get a comeback is because it acts as a window of opportunity (as well as the other side losing weapons and lifeforms). @ShamelessCookie 's idea effectively reduces the emphasis on objective-based gameplay, which in turn lowers both the skill floor and skill ceiling.
The only reason that a losing team that accomplishes a teamwipe should get a comeback is because it acts as a window of opportunity (as well as the other side losing weapons and lifeforms). @ShamelessCookie 's idea effectively reduces the emphasis on objective-based gameplay, which in turn lowers both the skill floor and skill ceiling.
I appreciate the feedback. I know many agree with you.
In my opinion, the window of opportunity after getting kills is a slow and grueling one. You have to heal. You have to advance. You have to kill an enemy resource tower. You have to build a friendly resource tower. I don't believe those are skill-based. They are tactic-based.
The skill floor and ceiling are unaffected, really. What the mod does provide is some tactical forgiveness. In a game that is desperate for new players, a slightly more forgiving tactical floor is a good thing, in my opinion.
The mod is about as subtle of a comeback mechanic as you can possibly make. It makes skill more tangible in small bits and pieces. It's very subtle, it's invisible to players on the field, and the meta doesn't change at all. The game is still NS2 at heart.
The only way I can think of to draw attention to the "window of opportunity" you mentioned is to increase death timers. But increased death timers would be much more heavy-handed. I think that would introduce more toxicity and less fun, since the negative effect is in your face.
If anyone has any ideas for better ways to introduce a comeback mechanic to NS2, beyond what it already inherently has, I'm all ears.
Comments
I like it because it adds something else to the game that "Could" make playing more fun and better, But there is alot of Flaws, as in New players just feeding marines kills after kills,
I think that a somewhat "Bounty" way could do better, so if you kill a skulk that has just spawned you would get 0 res, if you kill a skulk that has be alive for quite some time, has quite a few kills you gain a % of the Score you get for kill him, same would apply to other lifeforms,
Meaning if your palying well and you die, the other team gets rewarded for either
1. Teaming up and killing you with good teamwork and play.
2. Getting the lucky "Ambush"
There for this could promot better teamwork for both marines and aliens.
Quick example. a score of 25+ could reward something like 0.25 RPK
35 = 0.35 RPK
50 = 0.50 RPK
and so on,
And a big Tres reward if you manage to kill someone that has a score of 100 + you could get 5 tres for this,
Off course ideas need tweaking, but something else.
My idea is to make this comeback mechanic very marine bias. I think the game works pretty well for aliens in pubs if they get past the early game, and aren't down big. Marines seem to have trouble if they don't have a good start. Aliens also seem to have more advantage in a long, evenly matched game. This mechanic isn't going to stop the games where a couple marines wipe the whole alien team at the start and the skulks have no chance. Or the games where the marines can't hit the skulks at all and are dying easily. Those games will still be part of ns2. I would like to see if this mechanic can help the games that aren't on those extremes.
Perhaps aliens should only get this assist when marines are on 6 or more rts, which means marines are doing really well. I think marines need more assist mid to late game and giving them additional tech options for killing the enemy might make games more fun. If aliens are down big, this could give them some additional tres which would help them get up another hive or try something to make the game more interesting.
The idea has potential don't get me wrong but it completely breaks immersion.
Plus it rewards going for the kills instead of going for the RT which is simply not NS2.
Comeback can already happen late game on both sides anyway.
The issue is more about people waiting afk for the round to end early on because stacked teams / frustration.
I'd rather have a solid auto-balance system to get rid of the stacking issue by switching people around to balance teams on the fly.
I did see a message immediately when the game started, but I don't feel that's really enough.
3 factor instead of just 1, win/loss ratio + kill/death ratio + experience (game time) /3
Also spread the rookies evenly between each team without counting them in the shuffle calculation.
I don't see how switching teams mid game in ns2 would be fun or would work. A huge part of the game is pres and pres for alien lifeforms. If you are switching people around mid round, I don't think it works well in this type of game well.
Let's think about how an Alien team can bring back a game from the edge of loss, but still focus on RTs (as opposed to kills), which seems to be the general consensus on what needs to be done.
We all know that it's easier for Marines to drop RTs, which is why theirs are more expensive. No keeping a cyst chain alive whilst the enemy are stomping in your base, and no expensive drifter to (a) get out your base, and (b) keep alive to worry about either. Plus, the Harvester build time is SO slow. So, why not make it a little easier for end-game Aliens to gain some quick resources, as usually once their Harvesters are lost and they're trapped in a corner, they're not getting out. Their only option is a sneaky tunnel and a base push, we see it time and time again, and quite frankly, it's getting old.
My initial thought is some kind of "infect" that a skulk/gorge can perform to a Marine RT effectively covering it in some kind of infestation, causing it to now provide resources to the Alien team instead. Maybe the infestation from a gorge tunnel could perform this by default. This saves the aliens from having to spend time and lifeforms destroying the RT and then rebuilding a Harvester, but they will still need to defend the tunnel entrance. It would probably be a 3 biomass ability, so it can be performed on one hive, but must be researched, and isn't available from the very start of the game.
This now allows Aliens a quick and simpler way to gain faster personal/team resources, but also a simple way for Marines to stop them (destroy the tunnel). The Marines counter is also something very obvious and simple - people know to destroy the tunnel anyway. As a by product, we won't just be seeing gorge tunnels placed right outside a base any more for the same-ol' base rush, but they could be placed at any RT location, allowing the Aliens to take back a tech point and pull the game back bit-by-bit, as opposed to a single "can we chew the observatory quicker than the commander can beacon?" moment. Thoughts?
But what about people leaving/switching team midgame?
Endgame teams often have a rather high skill unbalance meaning brainless frag games.
sample size (number of games):
before comeback mod - 503
after comeback mod - 221
winrates:
before comeback mod - M:41.35% A:58.65%
after comeback mod - M:52.04% A:47.96%
avg round length:
before comeback mod - 16.44 minutes
after comeback mod - 17.41 minutes
Raw numbers are available here: http://tacticalfreedom.com/serverstats
It felt FUN to always have a chance with extra Tres .. I was far less demotivated and as such did not surrender.
Late game and only 2 RTs? Fear not, you can scan, cat pack, Robo and rebuild PGs.
However, as an alien it felt almost non existent / unhelpful / still unfun.
I believe Aliens need to be given Pres spread across the team instead of Tres.
Also, Exos need to be able to be dropped by commander again.
That's cool that you think it was more fun (which is key) on marines. I like your idea for aliens, I don't know if having the ability to build another hive or something is going to make a big enough difference for an alien team getting crushed. Giving Pres spread across the team instead of Tres should be attempted. It would have to be tweaked a bunch probably to make sure aliens aren't able to get life forms too fast, but still gives them a chance when they are way down.
The only discernible impact at the moment is that mid-range games are pushed out a bit with the mod turned on. Very short games and very long games appear unaffected.
Also, there's some more realtime stats here:
http://tacticalfreedom.com/comeback
Qualitatively it looks like it is working entirety as designed. If anything I am interested in qualitative information. IronHorse gave some nice positive feedback. Has anybody else gave good feedback. Has there been any real negative feedback on how it plays?
Positives have come from commanders who felt they at least had a chance to turn games around after winning engagements and getting a bunch of kills - even if they didn't actually comeback to win.
Neutral from players who, when the mechanic was explained to them, said "Oh, interesting. There have been a few comebacks on this server lately."
I haven't heard any negative feedback, but then again, most people don't know it exists.
If anything, the mod highlights the importance of late game play, which I feel makes the game much less of a grind where one team leans on the other for 20 minutes until they collapse.
Probably because the people who know it and don't like it refuse to play on your server anymore, like me. Such a shame because I liked the 8v8 with spec. Of course the greatest damage potential comes from people learning about it and deciding gameplay around it, because that leads to feeding, farming, and harassment of players. Of course you can't really seriously hope to balance the game based on secret mechanics either.
I refuse to play a game where dying as a skulk or an LMG marine does more damage to my team than sitting in base for 20 seconds.
Dying has always done more damage than AFKing. You consume an egg. You hog an Infantry Portal. You lose map position. You let the enemy know that your team has one less player alive.
I appreciate your feedback, but so far I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that this mechanic is not good for the health of, at the very least, 8v8 games.
you also pull a marine out of position, make him spend ammo, damage a structure, strip some armor. Unless the whole team is dying at once the eggs and IPs aren't an issue.
But again, the problem is how people play it. It's the leading reason why MOBAs are all so "toxic". Why people there would rather ban a new player than give him a chance to learn. We don't do that in NS2 because deaths DON'T matter. But they do now on your server.
But, in any case, the opponents to this particular idea seem almost entirely philosophical ("I just won't play that way"), while the proponents seem to be almost entirely scientific ("I've played it, and it's great").
The mod will be disabled later tonight, once we pass the 500 game mark with the mod on. I'd like to do a complete A-B-A analysis with 500 games in each and determine, based on winrate balance and player anecdotes, which experience is more enjoyable.
You say that, but I have NEVER seen anyone kicked for being bad. Even hoshiwara1021, whom I'm fairly certain is either a weird troll or some kind of experimental bot, is never successfully kicked. Pros are more likely, but you can't say that a 4000 score doesn't ruin the game for a server full of 1000s. It still doesn't go through often.
I of course was kicked and banned the very first time I tried to play DotA.
EDIT: I just want to re-emphasize that player-behavior depending on what they know, or what they think is happening, can have far greater impact on gameplay than what is actually happening. The perception of feeding and the culture around avoiding it would likely have a greater impact on game stats than the mod itself.
Conclusions:
The mod had no effect on average round length.
Average round length in all cases was between 16 and 17 minutes.
The mod improved winrate balance
The winrate was closest to 50/50 during the test case, with a slight favor to marines. Both of the control cases favored Aliens by a wider margin than during the test.
(subjective/anecdotal) The mod had a positive effect on commander morale
Commanders seemed less likely to give up if their team was getting kills, and had resources trickling in to spend on tech and drops.
(I can't discuss it seriously because this thing discourages my yolo playstyle on the mental level, regardless of the positive or negative effects of this system)
I propose to remove the K/D/A menu. It will instead increase the emphasis on the damn NS2 objectives.
I appreciate the feedback. I know many agree with you.
In my opinion, the window of opportunity after getting kills is a slow and grueling one. You have to heal. You have to advance. You have to kill an enemy resource tower. You have to build a friendly resource tower. I don't believe those are skill-based. They are tactic-based.
The skill floor and ceiling are unaffected, really. What the mod does provide is some tactical forgiveness. In a game that is desperate for new players, a slightly more forgiving tactical floor is a good thing, in my opinion.
The mod is about as subtle of a comeback mechanic as you can possibly make. It makes skill more tangible in small bits and pieces. It's very subtle, it's invisible to players on the field, and the meta doesn't change at all. The game is still NS2 at heart.
The only way I can think of to draw attention to the "window of opportunity" you mentioned is to increase death timers. But increased death timers would be much more heavy-handed. I think that would introduce more toxicity and less fun, since the negative effect is in your face.
If anyone has any ideas for better ways to introduce a comeback mechanic to NS2, beyond what it already inherently has, I'm all ears.