Buff Marines: Finish the 2016 balance changes before end of summer
Frozen
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
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On a more serious note, by "all levels" I assume you mean the top level. I think there is an important discussion to be had here. To really make a compelling argument to the developers I think we need to get some stats. How we go about doing that would be difficult since comp is dead and gathers don't happen often anymore.
That stats could potentially be collected if all the gather servers had a central wonitor page. I would seriously enjoy that wonitor page. All my data sources are lacking in truly high skilled games.
Hypothetically I think it would be really compelling if we had the statistics of at least 100 high skill level matches accompanied by a set of balance suggestions.
What do you think @Deck_
Bone shield on onos is basically the r8 in csgo pre nerf, dunno how no one complains about it yet its otherworldly right now.
Shift hive is way too strong, there's no reason to go any other hive, silence + wallhacks + double damage on any lifeform
Focus is too broken as well, fade swipe does double damage AND uses the same amount of energy, energy is the biggest struggles of playing fade, this just makes fade much easier and much stronger.
Cysts were nerfed to the ground in comp for a reason, the new cyst changes of them never popping is simply broken, @simba would have a field day as alien commander, even with the old cyst mechanics he made the game cyst simulator 2013, i dread what he could do now.
Umbra i believe is now much lower in the tech tree and its most likely the strongest upgrade in the game, bar bone shield.
TLDR: Marines need massive buffs
Good point @Mephilles. I will think on this. I might contact you or someone else from TAW about this. I believe you are the only ones who have organized play anymore.
You don't need stats to look at the game and see what is wrong at a certain level, you simply either use it or watch it be used, you could simply play mccree in ovewatch before his nerf and see that he was far too strong, statistics do help but aren't always needed sir. If you want ideas about how to buff marines/ re balance the game; remove the healing aspect of bonewall completely or significantly lower the damage absorption, maybe to like 25%, make cysts pop or lower their health 50%, make lifeforms 20% more expensive or 20% weaker to counter the pres change.
Not everything requires statistics nordic, especially when its so blatantly obvious
The onos boneshield is crazy good, it's like having 2 onos hp lives at any time. It is probably more op'd in small servers though as you can still shoot an onos with tons of marines in larger servers and it doesn't seem like people always are using boneshield/don't know how to use it/ or don't have the ability unlocked at that point in the game. Why does it seem to heal the onos so fast? Can it be reduced? Perhaps only heal the onos back to a quarter of it's health or half health. I don't see why you can sit there and get another onos life. It's just an extreme change.
The fade focus is really strong. When you can one swipe a 0 armor marine, you can dominate. The other changes make some sense as they are trying to appeal to more players by making them get their life forms faster, and keep their onos alive longer. But why the fade buff? I know focus isn't just for a fade, but the result is fades seem more like an unstoppable life form and probably upsets new players. It does seem like a good fade is really carrying ns2 games right now. You need really good shots on marines to counter it. I would like to know why focus was given, perhaps get rid of stab and allow focus to be a 3rd hive ability. Or get rid of focus. As it is right now, I don't see how it's going to make new players or any players enjoy the game more unless you're already a good fade and you can get easier kills.
I wish the p res increase was server side so it could be turned off if wanted. I think it changes the game a lot, which is ok in larger servers but not great in smaller servers (7v7, 8v8) where marines have to play amazing at the beginning to win.
Boneshield seems a little too overpowered to me, but I am not sure if it is needed to compensate for the introduction of MGs and cheap exos, that's why I have never said anything around here.
I think that the main problem is that it heals AND reduces incoming damage. To me it feels like an OP version of the old mucous membrane (which used to regenerate armor) with Umbra. And there is a reason why mucous membrane was nerfed...
If you really want a way for the onos to heal himself, maybe he should be really vulnerable while he is doing it, meaning that he should take extra damage while he is healing or that any damage received should stop the healing process (like how regeneration works in CompMod). That wouldn't be bone shield, that would be another ability that you cannot use at the same time that boneshield, maybe even with a shared cooldown so you have to chose which one to use.
But honestly, what annoys me the most is that the only skill in playing onos is map awareness. But now, even if you manage to set a trap to an onos with a couple marines while he is retreating, he will be at full health and he will heal again if he really needs to do it.
TL;DR: If an onos wants to heal himself he has regeneration, which is an upgrade that comes with the cost of having less armor. Don't give him a super-healing ability every 10 seconds for free. At least don't give it to him before the third hive.
You misunderstand me. I am not saying you are wrong Migalski. I am not saying we need stats to show something is wrong. There are two kinds of analysis. There is qualitative and quantitative. They both have a purpose. I think you, and others, have provided more than enough qualitative data that the top tier balance is poor. As you have said, it is obvious. Quantitative analysis would put a number to it.
It is not that it requires statistics, but that statistics would greatly help your argument. The argument presented in this thread, that the game balance does not work at all levels, would be much more compelling if it had a number showing that. Instead of saying "Game balance does not work at all levels" you would be saying "Game balance does not work at all levels. Although the public balance has a 52% alien win rate, the highest tier of skill has a [YY]% alien win rate."
If you went to the developers and said something like:
You are already halfway there with what is in this thread. It is just in how you communicate it.
It would benefit you if your suggestions to resolve imbalances would take a holistic approach. We all know the developers want to improve player retention, make the game more rookie friendly, and grow the game. Provide the developers with better ideas to solve those problems that also work for the highest skill levels. I know comp mod made the game balanced at the highest skill levels, and I know the developers looked at comp mod for ideas. You can't just regurgitate what was in comp mod. The developers already know what is there. You all have played the game long enough, at the highest levels, and you must have good ideas. Use your advanced knowledge to think of ideas that are win wins.
Yes, good point. Make it a 3rd hive ability if you want or reduce the healing rate. Make it only heal the onos a quarter to half it's health. Something like that, where it gives the onos a chance to live, but doesn't give the onos a free life. It would also make it somewhat fun to see if the onos can make it out of a dangerous spot. As of right now, it's like - we are chasing the onos....oh wait - crappy op'd feature button...anti-climatic ending. The onos already has a ton of health, it's crazy that they would have a free 2nd life button.
Some of the nerfs being purposed would just push it back to where it was before, a useless upgrade not seen in like 90% of games...
Be realistic.
It actually heals 453 armor points, which is 906 damage points, which is 906 damage points more than what we had before... every 10 seconds. And if that was not enough, with the pres change now it is easier to have more onos.
I disagree with your assumption that it requires any skill at all to use it correctly. But even if that was the case, something that is "overpowered when used correctly" it is clearly something that is not balanced.
I don't care if it was useless, onos already have an important upgrade, it is called charge. Boneshield was not useless before, it just required more teamplay than what it requires now: run, kill and heal.
What is your point with that sentence?
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The great thing that brings alien play are the diferent roles, which are needed in the whole game. Good alien play (in late game) should require lerks using umbra, fades protecting the onos and gorges healing, not only onos playing alone absorbing damage and autohealing.
We didn't like when the game was all the alien players going fade. So we nerfed their damage to structures, because that is not their role. In the same way, I don't like onos with an OP autohealing that has never been needed. Otherwise next thing we know is that we will have jetpackers with autohealing and autowelding
As I said before, I only understand the new boneshield as it is now as a third hive or if some highly experienced player tells me that it is needed to counter Exos or MGs
It is completely op, but that is not even the real Problem. The new mechanic is horrible and sh.its on NS Basic gameplay rules, oh my god the new Onos bone shield is so damn Bad that you would think it was meant at a joke, I explained it in Detail, many people did, but still we have to play with that ability that is flawed and broken in its Basic Design idea. Thank you. We can only hope these Updates stop as soon as possible and hopefully another godsent modder can fix the game again, I would even pay for that.
Also I want to say that not every discussion holds on forever because new game braking Updates get released every week and then there are new things to talk about. I wouldn't be surprised if devs would be thinking that people started liking the previous Updates when in reality game becoming worse and worse.
All my Onos friends whose retreats I covered over the years beg to disagree.
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Yes, aliens need nerfs. But in regards to the debate about statistics above: You cannot balance a game around gut feelings. Always get numbers if you can.
edit: spelling
September is crucial, because if there is any slight chance of competitive to reboot itself, the game needs to be stable at that time. And at the moment, it's far from it. For me personally, I'm still playing (only in TAW) in the hope comp will come back in some form, however small it may be. But if it doesn't, I probably won't stick around much longer, and I think I'm not the only one feeling this way.
Aliens got buffed hard. The pres gain makes lifeform flash much less of a problem, and it still buffs the veterans most of all. (riskier play is totally doable now.)
Ive talked a lot about the cyst change and how it currently is beyond OP.
In matches where most players somewhat know what they are doing, aliens win. Yes im going on TAW vs TAW matches & pub matches where are somehow above 1000 skill average.
The current 'problem' in pub of aliens losing when they are losing, is because the alien play is so abhorrently poor im at a loss of words to describe how truly bad it is.
This isnt totally a surprise. Many veterans stopped playing or are waiting out the 'lets change much every week' patches to settle. NS2 also did attract a lot of newbies.
Which kinda also makes many vets not wanting to play. The faceroll will become boring after just a little while.
The solution has always been to promote good play for rookies and to use mechanics to show them how its done.
Not fix their lack of knowledge and skill by buffing the crap out of the harder to learn team.
Game design. What's the fundamental goal here? All of this experimentation will hopefully be leading to something important, but as of right now I'm feeling like the devs have gone with an "escalating arms race" approach to balance that has fundamentally undercut what NS2 used to have going for it, even if "what NS2 used to have going for it" inevitably constrained the game's ability to grow as an aging title. This is very unfortunate, because I have no doubt that the renewed development cycle sprung from the belief (among certain people at UWE) that the game could, in fact, be revitalized. That the current incarnation had legs left.
Until recently, NS2 was a game more or less informed by the approach which characterized the shooters of my childhood: incredibly high individual skill ceilings, and lots of nuanced game mechanics which are difficult to impart to rookies. It seemed to have arrived during a time between the shooters of old and modern shooters; it lacked a number of amenities players expect these days (strong tutorials, accessibility, matchmaking, lots of quality of life features), but it still functioned as a strong team shooter without placing much constraint on the potential contributions any one player could make. This led to a fairly solid competitive scene. Perhaps not what NS1 was, but solid. And yes, the cost of minimal accessibility - a lack of democratization - was omnipresent. Hence the skill divide.
We've traded specific flaws for opposing ones. A highly challenging learning curve has been responded to by dampening consequences (especially for aliens) and amplifying the average sense of power a given player has (especially for aliens). Interminable games have been responded to by converting soft timers (e.g., aliens are likely to win at three hives) into hard ones (e.g.., aliens will almost always win with three hives, which is certainly an interesting design choice given the proliferation of 5-tech point maps; one would think that a 2-3 comeback would be more commonplace). It's something of a mire. Climbing out seems precarious. If the only ladder up and away is to constantly trade massive, game-changing buffs between the two teams every third iteration or so, I question where the ladder is leading.
You can compress a skill divide in one of two ways. The immediate way is to minimize the extent to which any one player truly matters by overpowering the playing field and compressing the divide. The longest but most satisfying way is to create a game in which the skill curve can be intelligibly climbed through practice and built-in learning features without shaving off the peaks that can be attained by any one player or team.
Perhaps this can all be traced back to the early days of NS2 development: a small group of coders working their asses off while facing the challenges of switching engines. Who can say where we'd be now if all of those modern amenities, learning features, and accessibility options were in from the start? What would that community look like? What's the minimum number of concurrent, capable players the game would have needed to sustain an awesome nightly population? We won't know. And speaking as a special edition pre-order customer (black armor op), it's unlikely that any of that would have ever been truly possible given the size of the team. And the size of that mission is certainly too much for the current development team when security is never guaranteed for more than three months, and when rapid iteration is the modus operandi. They're clearly doing what's expected of them, so I don't blame any one person. I don't even blame UWE, since they're a business and they need their investments (time/money/energy) to convert into livelihoods at the end of the day.
Anyway, just shooting the sh*t, and this is just my opinion. My optimism isn't completely defeated, so perhaps we'll see some positive changes in the future. Otherwise, I think this game had a good run. It'll be interesting to see what it becomes regardless.
Great post. This part I wanted to highlight as this goes along with what I've been saying is still the major problem with this game. This game needs to have built-in learning features that teaches people how to raise their skill in the game so they can compete at a higher level. Until this is addressed, this game will not be what it could be. Also, I would think new and veteran players would have more fun if they knew there were things they could do to get better. I would much prefer this and oppose simplifying the game. It looks like they are working on a commander tutorial, hopefully they work on advanced tutorials/aiming/movement tutorials next.
Want to get better at shooting/hit more of your shots - tutorial. Want to learn the movements of the lerk/fade - tutorial. Want to learn how to hit more of your bites as a skulk - tutorial. Want to learn where to stand in a room so you have the best chance at surviving - tutorial. Want to know how to move as a marine to stay alive and make yourself harder to be hit - tutorial. Make it really clear to people they can get better at the game when they first start playing it. I think veteran players can also learn a lot from advanced tutorials.
The combat devs, then a modding group, wanted to create their own game. They started working on it. UWE heard of it and approached them "Hey why don't you guys make combat into a game instead". Hence they did.
That didn't happen because UWE didn't want any risk and FLG couldn't have earned money with a free title.
I am assuming this is directed at me. I did not say we need to "prove" anything. As I keep saying it is all in how you communicate what you want to see in game.
Just pulling from this thread and not writing anything myself.
Although statistics would add to the argument, they are not necessary. All it really needs is ideas that are win wins for the high skilled players and the goals of the developers. Use that advanced knowledge and think up some great ideas.
I don't know what the developers plans are in terms of balancing. If they are not planning on doing anything, giving them something like what I show above could convince them. Statistics would only make it more compelling. If they are planning on doing something, I don't know what it is. Wouldn't you rather give them your ideas that are win wins?
Please add a server toggle for pres. Or make the new pres active on larger servers (10 players or more on a team) and old pres on smaller servers. Would be great if that could be done for the good of the game. Please?
Umbra was biomass 4 and now is 5
Spores was biomass 6 (I think) and now is 4
Maybe you were thinking in CompMod in this one?
Everyone here recognizes the importance of improving that learning curve, yet something that assists with that but comes with a consequence creates a knee jerk reaction with calls to revert it in lieu of attempting to balance it?
I think what we are seeing is the result of a rapid iteration cycle, where consequences to balance changes can't always be predicted perfectly nor always adequately tested with a small sample size, and you therefore have to adjust very quickly to said consequences. (sometimes in real time over a weekend, as has been done before recently) Hopefully the development cycle slows down, going forward.
But how about suggestions on how to balance the Pres changes without undoing them? (keeping in mind Marines do get some benefit from that change as well)
Any server op can run Last Stand, which is not too dissimilar in that regard?
The problem is it seems to help aliens more (the pres change) especially on smaller servers - 7v7, 8v8. This is because if you're a good life form, now you can sometimes get your life form back even if you make a big mistake and get killed with no penalty. So you are back to dominating again. So yes, the marines are getting shot guns and stuff faster, but it's hard to kill a good life form without great shots around you. So I would suggest one of the following:
1) Change the pres flow depending on how many players are on a team. Less players = slower pres flow.
2) Or once you are a lerk/fade/onos, your pres flow would decrease. This way, if you lose your lifeform right away, you didn't have that much time of the decreased pres flow (helps rookies/inexperienced life forms), and if you were a lerk or fade for awhile before dying, the other team doesn't have to see you go lerk or fade right away (in theory) since your pres would slow way down.
If only they made more use of the extension system. This isn't specific to pres, but I feel that this rapid iteration system results in poorly thought out changes not being rolled back but embarking on a cycle of compensation, that changes are made to compensate for previous compensations.
Anyway I think they announced in the last update thread that they were changing it to fortnightly instead? Or do you mean it should be slowed further?
*waits to be told that I should stop making assumptions and that the devs just disagree*