How could we teach people this type of play without 100s of hours experience [video]

Frozen · July 2016

Main point: How do we teach the behavior in the video? Does the hitbox and other recent changes have any effect on learning this? If not, does it help expedite it?

I was looking through some shadowplays after all the much discussion of skill gap yada yadas. I saw this one that I thought made a lot of sense to bring up today.

So I made a play-by-play video. It's by no means an amazing play, it's just something I do after so many hours over the last many years. And I remember thinking this one was just well executed, and it worked out really nicely.

Make sure you read the commentary, there's no other sound, and that's on purpose.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7Snm9T5UdNs?list=PLte4_NrKRvybyGqsHfHXNI0_EWDxJbqoJ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

0:00 Spawn holding map open, choose to reinforce right side
0:09 Offload lane dies
0:13 React and turn around to cover left-side and back res instead. That was unfortunately slow.
0:21 Switch to cautious, the res node in pub is being bitten non-stop
0:22 Spot skulk, miss 5 shots on the bar, still hear res being bitten
0:24 Jump corner off bar to get a jump when turning the corner
0:25 Spend 10 bullets trying to totally own the skulk, failing
0:26 Res is still being bitten, take stock of the situation.
0:27 Decide to try to save the res on a low-win percentage play, I think I must have had a good idea how low it was, which wasn't that low based on how long I head the biting, no sound unfortunately.

I know exactly what I need to do to win this fight going in. With my accuracy it's a pretty low win-percentage play. Why? (1) Skulk is biting the res node, he has me forced to make a play actively [opposed to passively] (2) I'll be split between the skulks, so i can't check my flank without risking that I'll miss an ambush from the res-biter (3) I only have 35 bullets left in my clip, and a reload would get me killed. What I need to do to win this skirmish is push into the RT and aggressively push the skulk off the RT hoping to kill him, so I can continue jumping past the res node to get line-of-sight down the hallway so the other skulk can't jump me while I'm trying to kill the res-biter

0:30 Skulk jumps to ambush. The other skulk is still on my mind.
0:31.0 Killed the skulk, guess he was a little low? 18 bullets left.
0:31.8 I turn around to find that skulk. He's not literally biting me, so I did this fast enough to win position, thanks to the skulks foolish ambush.
0:32 I simply turn the corner as far from it as possible while paying attention, hit some of the LMG, but the pull out the pistol and
0:36 The 2nd skulk is dead.
0:37 Press c to open map, move on
0:40 Check console to see who I killed
0:43 Check tab to see if I'm winning yet

These are some pretty decent skulks involved in the play, not randoms.

So it's, how do we get people to play the game like this?

tl;dr no one cares if you didn't read it anyway

soccerguy243 · July 2016

i play like that. Except i can't hit good skulks, so i'm often the one going to res, die, respawn, go to res, die, etc.

I also am not a good skulk. I hide and ambush but players check corners, and once i'm in the muck I get killed.

so i don't play anymore. I still skulk around these forums though.

Stardog · July 2016

You would just teach them how to play the game in RTS mode only.

Bicsum · July 2016

The fact that you partially ignored the first skulk to supprise the other skulk and fight them split up stems from your confidence and expirience.

I'd say you can't teach this particular combat situation, because its pretty situational, but you could teach marines to keep distance to skulks as much as possible. Also you didnt check corners in pub, but maybe you were aware of all enemy positions at that moment. Not sure.

Kouji_San · July 2016

Heck if we're dealing with players who for example ask for medpacks and ammo, they spawn in yet they don't look for it and walk off into a random hallway... I'd say the chances of teaching those kind of players is nihil

Heck reminds me of Dirty Bomb, where player did manage to find out how to call for a medic. But once you throw medpacks on the floor, because of accidentally missing them due to incoming fire/dodging or them making a random move. They keep looking at you asking for a medic, while right behind them THER EIS A ASDMEDCKITTA AS>D!!!!

Sorry dunno what happened there

Vetinari · July 2016

I'm not sure if you can teach something like that effectively at all, or if people would (want to) listen. If we had a large community and a ranked system we wouldn't *need* to teach this kind of stuff, since people who want to move up on the ladder would have to actively pursue knowledge like this themselves, and there would be guides getting created etc. But that is not really a realistic scenario, either, what with the low playerbase and all.

Sucks.

.trixX. · July 2016

You can't expect an artist to solve differential equasions. People have different skillsets which they have to learn on their own. They either pursue it or not, on their own.
I'm with @F0rdPrefect on this

Tyrwing · July 2016

soccerguy243 wrote: »

i play like that. Except i can't hit good skulks, so i'm often the one going to res, die, respawn, go to res, die, etc.

I also am not a good skulk. I hide and ambush but players check corners, and once i'm in the muck I get killed.

so i don't play anymore. I still skulk around these forums though.

There is an easy solution though. Take your ambushing to the next level - agressive ambushes. Where you engage out of an ambushspot before the marine makes the corner.

Vetinari · July 2016

Tyrwing wrote: »

soccerguy243 wrote: »

i play like that. Except i can't hit good skulks, so i'm often the one going to res, die, respawn, go to res, die, etc.

I also am not a good skulk. I hide and ambush but players check corners, and once i'm in the muck I get killed.

so i don't play anymore. I still skulk around these forums though.

There is an easy solution though. Take your ambushing to the next level - agressive ambushes. Where you engage out of an ambushspot before the marine makes the corner.

Sometimes I aggressively ambush into a group of marines that I didn't even know was there

Kouji_San · July 2016

All of this is kinda based purely on intuition and environmental awareness.

Heck I used to play Forgotten Hope (a BF1942 mod) and was so in tune with all the balistics and how other player would move I could predict what they would do.

Seeing a lad walking around a building, sure buddy that takes like what... 5 seconds, have a nade in 3 2 1 KABOOOM
Or doing the feign movement, moving this way, than completely changing direction and sneaking around to their exposed flank, butllet in the head in 3 2 1 SPLASH.
Heck playing with a friend of mine, on the enemy team. We could basically predict each others tactics to some extend, while dynamically keeping an eye on other potential danger.
Or simple things like, sitting in your secondary turret on your tank so your engine turns off, while you listen for enemies while they cannot hear you. Or better yet, get a buddy to spot for ya where to place those shells. Instead of plowing the almghty Konigstiger into a town only to ragequit due to bazookas landing all over it or planes slapping it into a crater
And that stuff translates perfectly to other games as well, especially casual games like Dirty Bomb, TF2, Overwatch and so on (COD? )

Multitasking, that is what is missing from the mindset of current casuals!

I see them way to eager to do the single focus, the rainbow road: OMFG THAT IS AN ENEMY MUST KEEP GOING THERE AND DIE (clog wall of doom with, 50 DC and Gorges behind it)

excuse the random nostalgia bubble bursting and shameless video plug

Tyrwing · July 2016

F0rdPrefect wrote: »

Tyrwing wrote: »

soccerguy243 wrote: »

i play like that. Except i can't hit good skulks, so i'm often the one going to res, die, respawn, go to res, die, etc.

I also am not a good skulk. I hide and ambush but players check corners, and once i'm in the muck I get killed.

so i don't play anymore. I still skulk around these forums though.

There is an easy solution though. Take your ambushing to the next level - agressive ambushes. Where you engage out of an ambushspot before the marine makes the corner.

Sometimes I aggressively ambush into a group of marines that I didn't even know was there

Well if you play without sound. I can see how that happens frequently.

Kouji_San · July 2016

Tyrwing wrote: »

F0rdPrefect wrote: »

Tyrwing wrote: »

soccerguy243 wrote: »

i play like that. Except i can't hit good skulks, so i'm often the one going to res, die, respawn, go to res, die, etc.

I also am not a good skulk. I hide and ambush but players check corners, and once i'm in the muck I get killed.

so i don't play anymore. I still skulk around these forums though.

There is an easy solution though. Take your ambushing to the next level - agressive ambushes. Where you engage out of an ambushspot before the marine makes the corner.

Sometimes I aggressively ambush into a group of marines that I didn't even know was there

Well if you play without sound. I can see how that happens frequently.

Heck I play with my monitor turned off to even out the field >_>

Also the funny thing is, I once played sniper on an attacking team. I heard WE DON'T NEED FRIGGIN' SNIPERS. We eventually won due to me not playing sniper as sniper, I find that high burst one shot kill weapon hilariously overpowered when used as front line infantry (instead of doing the linedancing at the back of the field what they expect you to do...) They also don't expect it

It occurs to me that most current (casual) gamers somehow lack creativity and multitasking to some degree

RevanCorana · July 2016

You know there arent too many ways to encourage or discourage behaviours, what works is you put a reward or a sanction at the end.

If a player manage to kill an ennemy RT ---> player gets X extra Personal res.
Player doesnt weld teammates using "weld me" voiceover (while in possession of a welder) ---> player loses Y Personal res.

Kouji_San · July 2016

Or have a popup when you slay an RT, while you receive a medal saying

SUPER SERGEANT MEGA TURBO MAJOR CAPTAIN EXTREME (heavy voice guy)

I'm sorry am I trollin'? I'm trollin', aren't I... Usually I'm more subtle with trollin'

.trixX. · July 2016

@Kouji_San i love how you wrote DC instead of crag x)

RevanCorana · July 2016

I know what you mean it sounds a bit retarded people should have fun regardless of rewards, and I think they do, but if you want to speed up the learning process, concessions have to be made, this should be togglable in the options.

Kouji_San · July 2016

.trixX. wrote: »

@Kouji_San i love how you wrote DC instead of crag x)

TBH I didn't even notice until you pointed it out

remi · July 2016

I approve of your clicky keyboard.

IronHorse · July 2016

Frozen wrote: »

0:40 Check console to see who I killed

What?

Kouji_San · July 2016

IronHorse wrote: »

Frozen wrote: »

0:40 Check console to see who I killed

What?

Hitgirl

Frozen · July 2016

Kouji_San wrote: »

IronHorse wrote: »

Frozen wrote: »

0:40 Check console to see who I killed

What?

Hitgirl

Literally checked console to see who I killed since the killfeed was gone

IronHorse · July 2016

I mean I get it.. I've done that before but only while respawning.
Just don't agree that it should be advisable to do at any other time.
It's obscuring, blocks input, takes a moment to read/parse especially if a lot of engagements just occurred... Unless you're dealing with some godly player that is crucial to know whether you've cleared him from that side of the map.

Idk it just struck me as odd as being something notable to teach.

Frozen · July 2016

Oh it was a joke, doesn't really matter if you do that or not. You didn't have a problem with how i said check the scoreboard to see if you're at the top yet?

Vetinari · July 2016

Frozen wrote: »

Oh it was a joke, doesn't really matter if you do that or not. You didn't have a problem with how i said check the scoreboard to see if you're at the top yet?

Everybody does that :P

edit: Although in my case I obviously check if I'm still at the top

RadimaX · July 2016

map awareness and decision making many skulks go back and forth behind beams trying to parasite i run away and attack something else meanwhile instead of wasting time on that you will learn after couple thousand hours :P or not, since everyone plays differently could upload some of my gameplay like 3 years back when i played similair

Flatlander · July 2016

If you want someone to learn how to play, you have to get them to play the game for at least a few matches. The maps in this game are absolutely ridiculous. They are the most confusing things I have ever seen in my entire life. And in a game like NS2, where the game is both a Strategy game + FPS, you can literally have an amazing player, with 50 kills and 0 deaths, but he loses because he isn't where he needs to be in-game.

The "Minimum Skill Requirement" to be able to play NS2 is high.
The "Minimum Knowledge Requirement" to be able to play NS2 is high. (knowing the maps and abilities of both teams)

Also, you are usually dropped into the middle of a match when clicking "Play Now". So players don't get to see the natural progression of the game in their first time.

Kouji_San · July 2016

F0rdPrefect wrote: »

Frozen wrote: »

Oh it was a joke, doesn't really matter if you do that or not. You didn't have a problem with how i said check the scoreboard to see if you're at the top yet?

Everybody does that :P

edit: Although in my case I obviously check if I'm still at the top

I don't have to check, I just know

Vetinari · July 2016

Kouji_San wrote: »

F0rdPrefect wrote: »

Frozen wrote: »

Oh it was a joke, doesn't really matter if you do that or not. You didn't have a problem with how i said check the scoreboard to see if you're at the top yet?

Everybody does that :P

edit: Although in my case I obviously check if I'm still at the top

I don't have to check, I just know

But see, the difference between us is that I don't command

How could we teach people this type of play without 100s of hours experience [video]

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