You have too look further back than 6 months to see a real pattern in player count.
If nothing else, then seasonal habits and steam sales are a huge factor
EDIT: This isn't the lowest player count, not ever nor for this time of season... so you can't blame that on the devs xP
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players.
Except the way your going about it is making the game way too easy for the high skill players, which in turn has made pub games much MUCH worse than they have ever been before.
Also I believe your data may be flawed.. I've never seen NS2 as dead as it has been the past couple of weeks. In the mornings we've gone from 2-3 US servers and 6-8 EU servers absolute minimum, to just 1-2 US and 1-2 EU servers at most..
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players.
Except the way your going about it is making the game way too easy for the high skill players, which in turn has made pub games much MUCH worse than they have ever been before.
Also I believe your data may be flawed.. I've never seen NS2 as dead as it has been the past couple of weeks. In the mornings we've gone from 2-3 US servers and 6-8 EU servers absolute minimum, to just 1-2 US and 1-2 EU servers at most..
Percieved past game quality can be quite misleading... and it is the holidays, according to steamcharts history it's not catastrophic compared to other years
Also I believe your data may be flawed.. I've never seen NS2 as dead as it has been the past couple of weeks. In the mornings we've gone from 2-3 US servers and 6-8 EU servers absolute minimum, to just 1-2 US and 1-2 EU servers at most..
You don't debunk data by saying "I feel..." or "In my experience..." and throwing around numbers that you are just trying to recall to prove your point. This is a problem too many people on this forum and life in general have.
Pretty much no-one in the PDT being active on pubs is a good point though.
Debate and playtest amongst yourselves all you want, it's all meaningless if your impression of real-world effects is exclusively based on looking at statistics.
Also I believe your data may be flawed.. I've never seen NS2 as dead as it has been the past couple of weeks. In the mornings we've gone from 2-3 US servers and 6-8 EU servers absolute minimum, to just 1-2 US and 1-2 EU servers at most..
You don't debunk data by saying "I feel..." or "In my experience..." and throwing around numbers that you are just trying to recall to prove your point. This is a problem too many people on this forum and life in general have.
That's all we really have though.. How it feels
Only UWE (and maybe Nordic) have access to see whether or not the higher player stats are consistent (more people throughout the day) or just new people checking it out (ie it only spikes for a few hours in evenings)
We could have way lower population thoughout the day, but if enough new players are checking it out at night, then suddenly the max peak for that day makes the game look more alive than it really is.. Just one example of how stats don't always tell the while story..
And lately NS2 feels extremely dead. (way more than usual)
Yeah, the numbers are better than last year. But considering last year there were 6 months (30 Jan-30 July) without any updates because the CDT didn't have a build machine, I don't think the numbers look that great if you really want to make a fair comparison. Which is why usually one has to look at stats with the proper context instead of taking the numbers at face value.
Only UWE (and maybe Nordic) have access to see whether or not the higher player stats are consistent (more people throughout the day) or just new people checking it out (ie it only spikes for a few hours in
I don't. I have hive data from February 2016 and Sponitor data from b279 to b297. As you can see, I have not been updated in awhile. Nor have I had much time to work with the stats.
I will revert the hellarious servers to a pre bullshi.t state this WE. Ppl that own the game for years and devoted a huge portion of thier income to it simply deserve better than to be constantly bothered to be beta testers by force. NS2 has some of the best posibilitys to test stuff on a broad scale without being intrusive and change the core game when the "additions" are clearly not ready for public consumption. This taking advantage of good and over the top loyal ppl that simply need thier socializing fix in a game and community they love ends now.
I will revert the hellarious servers to a pre bullshi.t state this WE. Ppl that own the game for years and devoted a huge portion of thier income to it simply deserve better than to be constantly bothered to be beta testers by force. NS2 has some of the best posibilitys to test stuff on a broad scale without being intrusive and change the core game when the "additions" are clearly not ready for public consumption. This taking advantage of good and over the top loyal ppl that simply need thier socializing fix in a game and community they love ends now.
Check our discord on that one @bicsum i'll set up a test server so we can perfect it on a solid build. But till then our ppl need to have thier regular experience... it was not bad with the mods 2 weeks ago... it will sufice till the mod is ready and expensive.
Each end every one on thier own yes. But i will not put my name behind something that does not stand the test of real comp and pub fun. I don't think it's there, yet. Let me talk to @deck and the others. Time will tell. Maybe we put up a section dedicated to the mod on the discord too...
I'd rather go forward together, WITH the cdt. It's not me son, believe me! But forward is not the direction they choose to take. It's a efing joke. Maybe if they see that noone, that likes good matches plays thier version of the game (it's not ns2 anymore) they focus on important stuff and stop trying to shove thier personal preferences down our throats. I know, it'sa thin straw of hope, but I'm like that.
I'd rather go forward together, WITH the cdt. It's not me son, believe me! But forward is not the direction they choose to take. It's a efing joke. Maybe if they see that noone, that likes good matches plays thier version of the game (it's not ns2 anymore) they focus on important stuff and stop trying to shove thier personal preferences down our throats. I know, it'sa thin straw of hope, but I'm like that.
I like it, you're one of those optimist that doesn't see the glass as half full, you see it as refillable
I'd love to see the devs on our servers. Smurfs get banned tho. Come with your real accounts and stay a bit longer as one round. You get a real impression. It's very informative to spec for 3-4 rounds too. Bring your mics and lets have some fun!
Uhhh if you are devoting a 'huge portion' of your income to servers I think you might be doing something wrong..
As for changes and stats and outcomes, to me it still doesn't make much sense to me. I said a long time ago now that changing the balance of the core game needed to happen after a key decision was made, whether the game should be adjusted to be more casually focused, or more competitively focused. To me it still looks like that decision hasn't been made. The devs have the right to do whatever they want with the game, and I am sure there are people that would like to see it go either way... But until you pick a direction, any changes just leave you in that same awkward place in the middle.. You can't really appease both parties - there are certainly some compromises that can be made to make a more competitive game 'easy to learn', or a more casual game that has some depth.. but trying to please both groups entirely just leaves everyone somewhat disappointed...
I spent a lot of time trying to find clever solutions to some core problems with NS2 and never found anything that didn't increase the learning curve, make the game more punishing or remove depth/skill/complexity. Or involve some extremely drastic changes like all lifeforms/guns being free with the removal of pRes... But as I learned from the 'balance test' days, you just cant hope to make everyone happy.. And big shakeups tend to be negative all around. Overall it takes someone who is pretty committed to dealing with the noise but also someone who has a good idea for what they want the game to be, someone who has the power to make those changes happen and someone who can understand the gameplay at the simplest and most complex levels. Its pretty rare to find games that have a designer with all 4 of those anymore.
Everyone can make armchair suggestions on where THEY would like to see things go, but it generally it is always easy to see what YOU want. Whats best for the game long term? I don't think anyone here can accurately give an answer to that - the market is just way to unpredictable. In all honesty beyond UWE fixing bugs, I am pretty sure that any other changes they make would make people upset at this point. Players get set in their ways and resistant to almost any changes, and with a dwindling playerbase and a decent time since release, its hard to count on new players making up the gaps... I wouldn't want to be in their position trying to make changes at this point, you are almost certainly stuck between the lesser of two evils with any change.
I've seen alot of crazy changes get added to NS2 over the years, and I still am a firm believer that UWE could have greatly benefited from a 'gameplay designer'. They have a knack for coming up with some interesting ideas that don't always get a good implementation, which ends in backlash and the idea being scrapped.
In all honesty beyond UWE fixing bugs, I am pretty sure that any other changes they make would make people upset at this point.
I agree with your points about development direction, and I know you probably mean well with everything you said, but it's a little disheartening to see someone this involved in the community have so little faith in said community, and then get so much support from people equally involved.
The vast majority of people still left after 4 years (and, if you count NS1, up to 14 years) are not the blindly-hating-everything crowd. We're the loyal fanbase. We don't dislike change just because it's change. We're not the ones calling it quits and pronouncing the game dead after changes like armouries not replenishing armour or the removal of shadowstep. Because those were fantastic, well thought-out changes that eventually improved gameplay.
Health bars, bigger alien hitboxes and then higher skulk health to compensate, completely changing skulk vs. marine gameplay after years of careful balancing, are changes that not only seem unwarranted, but simply have proven to have an extremely negative impact on gameplay. As is pretty much consensually agreed upon amongst people actually playing on public servers in the past couple of weeks.
No one wants this game to get revived more than this community. And no, we obviously don't know a sure-fire way how to do that, either. Which is why we're asking the devs to figure it out in a combined effort, but we're either ignored or our critique gets written off as blind anger.
It's time to wake up. The angry elitists are gone. The remaining community is the life support of this game. Don't kill it.
Health bars, bigger alien hitboxes and then higher skulk health to compensate, completely changing skulk vs. marine gameplay after years of careful balancing, are changes that not only seem unwarranted, but simply have proven to have an extremely negative impact on gameplay
While the Hitbox change had a noticable impact on the marine winratio, i cant see the "complete change in skulksplay".
Scouting, call out enemy positions, parasiting, engage as a group, ambushing and resbiting.
I can play the skulk exact the same like before all the last changes.
The last hitbox change revealed only the lack any gamesense/knowledge of most Leeroy Jenkins skulks.
Bite cone and HP buff helped them a bit again, so we are back to "normal" again.
But these players still playing horrible on alienside.
And that is the main reason of the horrible rounds, not the changes.
Comments
If nothing else, then seasonal habits and steam sales are a huge factor
EDIT: This isn't the lowest player count, not ever nor for this time of season... so you can't blame that on the devs xP
Can't blame them devs for summer dip in populous! Also the ozzie's gon hate me for this yo
Except the way your going about it is making the game way too easy for the high skill players, which in turn has made pub games much MUCH worse than they have ever been before.
Also I believe your data may be flawed.. I've never seen NS2 as dead as it has been the past couple of weeks. In the mornings we've gone from 2-3 US servers and 6-8 EU servers absolute minimum, to just 1-2 US and 1-2 EU servers at most..
Percieved past game quality can be quite misleading... and it is the holidays, according to steamcharts history it's not catastrophic compared to other years
You don't debunk data by saying "I feel..." or "In my experience..." and throwing around numbers that you are just trying to recall to prove your point. This is a problem too many people on this forum and life in general have.
Debate and playtest amongst yourselves all you want, it's all meaningless if your impression of real-world effects is exclusively based on looking at statistics.
Which one?
(S)Hellarious Basterds IIRC. It could've been ghouls box, too, though.
However, I'd expect the devs are usually using smurf accounts for obvious reasons.
That's all we really have though.. How it feels
Only UWE (and maybe Nordic) have access to see whether or not the higher player stats are consistent (more people throughout the day) or just new people checking it out (ie it only spikes for a few hours in evenings)
We could have way lower population thoughout the day, but if enough new players are checking it out at night, then suddenly the max peak for that day makes the game look more alive than it really is.. Just one example of how stats don't always tell the while story..
And lately NS2 feels extremely dead. (way more than usual)
Any chance that you'll run the new comp mod instead? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=719090669
It may not be there, yet, but it won't ever be there, if no one is testing it. Same applies to current vanilla balance though.
Not really, he's been doing that for months.
I like it, you're one of those optimist that doesn't see the glass as half full, you see it as refillable
As for changes and stats and outcomes, to me it still doesn't make much sense to me. I said a long time ago now that changing the balance of the core game needed to happen after a key decision was made, whether the game should be adjusted to be more casually focused, or more competitively focused. To me it still looks like that decision hasn't been made. The devs have the right to do whatever they want with the game, and I am sure there are people that would like to see it go either way... But until you pick a direction, any changes just leave you in that same awkward place in the middle.. You can't really appease both parties - there are certainly some compromises that can be made to make a more competitive game 'easy to learn', or a more casual game that has some depth.. but trying to please both groups entirely just leaves everyone somewhat disappointed...
I spent a lot of time trying to find clever solutions to some core problems with NS2 and never found anything that didn't increase the learning curve, make the game more punishing or remove depth/skill/complexity. Or involve some extremely drastic changes like all lifeforms/guns being free with the removal of pRes... But as I learned from the 'balance test' days, you just cant hope to make everyone happy.. And big shakeups tend to be negative all around. Overall it takes someone who is pretty committed to dealing with the noise but also someone who has a good idea for what they want the game to be, someone who has the power to make those changes happen and someone who can understand the gameplay at the simplest and most complex levels. Its pretty rare to find games that have a designer with all 4 of those anymore.
Everyone can make armchair suggestions on where THEY would like to see things go, but it generally it is always easy to see what YOU want. Whats best for the game long term? I don't think anyone here can accurately give an answer to that - the market is just way to unpredictable. In all honesty beyond UWE fixing bugs, I am pretty sure that any other changes they make would make people upset at this point. Players get set in their ways and resistant to almost any changes, and with a dwindling playerbase and a decent time since release, its hard to count on new players making up the gaps... I wouldn't want to be in their position trying to make changes at this point, you are almost certainly stuck between the lesser of two evils with any change.
I've seen alot of crazy changes get added to NS2 over the years, and I still am a firm believer that UWE could have greatly benefited from a 'gameplay designer'. They have a knack for coming up with some interesting ideas that don't always get a good implementation, which ends in backlash and the idea being scrapped.
The vast majority of people still left after 4 years (and, if you count NS1, up to 14 years) are not the blindly-hating-everything crowd. We're the loyal fanbase. We don't dislike change just because it's change. We're not the ones calling it quits and pronouncing the game dead after changes like armouries not replenishing armour or the removal of shadowstep. Because those were fantastic, well thought-out changes that eventually improved gameplay.
Health bars, bigger alien hitboxes and then higher skulk health to compensate, completely changing skulk vs. marine gameplay after years of careful balancing, are changes that not only seem unwarranted, but simply have proven to have an extremely negative impact on gameplay. As is pretty much consensually agreed upon amongst people actually playing on public servers in the past couple of weeks.
No one wants this game to get revived more than this community. And no, we obviously don't know a sure-fire way how to do that, either. Which is why we're asking the devs to figure it out in a combined effort, but we're either ignored or our critique gets written off as blind anger.
It's time to wake up. The angry elitists are gone. The remaining community is the life support of this game. Don't kill it.
While the Hitbox change had a noticable impact on the marine winratio, i cant see the "complete change in skulksplay".
Scouting, call out enemy positions, parasiting, engage as a group, ambushing and resbiting.
I can play the skulk exact the same like before all the last changes.
The last hitbox change revealed only the lack any gamesense/knowledge of most Leeroy Jenkins skulks.
Bite cone and HP buff helped them a bit again, so we are back to "normal" again.
But these players still playing horrible on alienside.
And that is the main reason of the horrible rounds, not the changes.