Submarine diving depths don't make sense. (thought experiment)
Artorius
Indiana USA Join Date: 2016-09-02 Member: 221998Members
Indiana USA Join Date: 2016-09-02 Member: 221998Members
The following may sound like a rant, but it isn't. I was just thinking through some things and feel like theres some room to improve. If it never happens, I will not be in any way upset. In actuality, this was fun to do. Testing subs for depths and such is pretty cool.
EDIT: After some feedback from @EvilSmoo and @nocommonsense ; I have decided to edit my numbers here. ALSO: My original testing DID NOT use a rib-stiffened double hull for the Cyclops. Using a ribbed double hull would allow the submarine to dive to 1500m with about 55mm inner hull and 25mm outer hull if the ribs are 15mm thick, 254mm wide and have 400mm spacing. This is both realistic, and fits the design the game has.
Okay so as many of you know by now, I love the submarines. But I see some issues. The Seamoth starts out with a 200m/656ft depth rating. Maximum upgrades bring that to 900m/2,952ft. Smaller submarines can always dive deeper with the same thickness materials because the smaller diameter is much stronger. So, while thinking about this, the dive depth of 500m for the Cyclops without any upgrades seemed incorrect. So I built a titanium approximation of the Cyclops and pressure tested it using the best titanium alloy I could find in SolidWorks. 51mm thick titanium alloy walls and it folded up like a taco at 28 meters depth. Next I ran a test with 76mm thick titanium walls and I get 51 meters depth and it crushes. Now assuming Titanium alloys improve in the next 1300 years so lets triple those numbers. We still only get 84 and 153 meters respectively.
I decided to see what it took to get to 2800 meters crush depth without the fancy alien tech. Just for fun...and science!!
So...using the best titanium available to my testing. I made many tests. Finally getting past the 2,800 meter depth at 2,808 meters. The hull needed to be 21 inches...533 millimeters thick!! The floor also provided strength and had to be 12 inches thick. The vehicle weighs 5,718,397 pounds/2,859 tons, or 2,593,821 kilograms/2,593 tonnes.
Basing on this I have a proposal:
The Cyclops is a fast, cargo carrying vehicle that is great for that job. But the Seamoth should be able to go deeper. And the Prawn deeper still.
Using (updated) realistic numbers the Cyclops should be capable of 500m normally and be upgraded to 900m and then 1500m.
The normal 500m depth should give the most space and have clean walls as it is already now. The upgrade to 900m should require extra, small internal ribs placed every meter along the hull making the deeper diving capability a bit of a challenge. The final 1500m upgrade should add cross braces and double the number of ribs.
Anyway, all that aside, I have a depth table that I think would work better for the game.
Cyclops:
Stock = 500m
Upgrade 1 = 900m
Upgrade 2 = 1500m
Seamoth:
Stock = 250m
Upgrade 1 = 500m
Upgrade 2 = 1000m
Upgrade 3 = 1500m
PRAWN:
Stock = 900m
Upgrade 1 = 1100m
Upgrade 2 = 1400m
Upgrade 3 = 1800m
...................................
Now my own Submarine designs.
Mako:
Stock = 100m
Upgrade 1 = 200m
Upgrade 2 = 400m
Coelacanth:
Stock = 200m
Upgrade 1 = 400m
Upgrade 2 = 600m
Upgrade 3 = 800m
Cephalopod:
Stock = No depth limit.
Alternatively, there could be more submarines instead of only upgrading submarines. Yes still have upgrades, but have them be permanent, not just a module that can be placed and removed at will, but an actual added part that is more involved in adding or removing. Also the depth upgrades would not do as much. Maybe add 10% per upgrade.
This would allow for more variety of submarines in the game and help make them more useful. Shallow diving subs would have more space, more speed or both. Medium subs would be a balanced compromise and deep diving subs would be cramped and slow. With alien tech improving these things.
Anyway, I hope I didn't bore anyone. I am just thinking out loud.
And thank you all for the feedback.
EDIT: After some feedback from @EvilSmoo and @nocommonsense ; I have decided to edit my numbers here. ALSO: My original testing DID NOT use a rib-stiffened double hull for the Cyclops. Using a ribbed double hull would allow the submarine to dive to 1500m with about 55mm inner hull and 25mm outer hull if the ribs are 15mm thick, 254mm wide and have 400mm spacing. This is both realistic, and fits the design the game has.
Okay so as many of you know by now, I love the submarines. But I see some issues. The Seamoth starts out with a 200m/656ft depth rating. Maximum upgrades bring that to 900m/2,952ft. Smaller submarines can always dive deeper with the same thickness materials because the smaller diameter is much stronger. So, while thinking about this, the dive depth of 500m for the Cyclops without any upgrades seemed incorrect. So I built a titanium approximation of the Cyclops and pressure tested it using the best titanium alloy I could find in SolidWorks. 51mm thick titanium alloy walls and it folded up like a taco at 28 meters depth. Next I ran a test with 76mm thick titanium walls and I get 51 meters depth and it crushes. Now assuming Titanium alloys improve in the next 1300 years so lets triple those numbers. We still only get 84 and 153 meters respectively.
I decided to see what it took to get to 2800 meters crush depth without the fancy alien tech. Just for fun...and science!!
So...using the best titanium available to my testing. I made many tests. Finally getting past the 2,800 meter depth at 2,808 meters. The hull needed to be 21 inches...533 millimeters thick!! The floor also provided strength and had to be 12 inches thick. The vehicle weighs 5,718,397 pounds/2,859 tons, or 2,593,821 kilograms/2,593 tonnes.
Basing on this I have a proposal:
The Cyclops is a fast, cargo carrying vehicle that is great for that job. But the Seamoth should be able to go deeper. And the Prawn deeper still.
Using (updated) realistic numbers the Cyclops should be capable of 500m normally and be upgraded to 900m and then 1500m.
The normal 500m depth should give the most space and have clean walls as it is already now. The upgrade to 900m should require extra, small internal ribs placed every meter along the hull making the deeper diving capability a bit of a challenge. The final 1500m upgrade should add cross braces and double the number of ribs.
Anyway, all that aside, I have a depth table that I think would work better for the game.
Cyclops:
Stock = 500m
Upgrade 1 = 900m
Upgrade 2 = 1500m
Seamoth:
Stock = 250m
Upgrade 1 = 500m
Upgrade 2 = 1000m
Upgrade 3 = 1500m
PRAWN:
Stock = 900m
Upgrade 1 = 1100m
Upgrade 2 = 1400m
Upgrade 3 = 1800m
...................................
Now my own Submarine designs.
Mako:
Stock = 100m
Upgrade 1 = 200m
Upgrade 2 = 400m
Coelacanth:
Stock = 200m
Upgrade 1 = 400m
Upgrade 2 = 600m
Upgrade 3 = 800m
Cephalopod:
Stock = No depth limit.
Alternatively, there could be more submarines instead of only upgrading submarines. Yes still have upgrades, but have them be permanent, not just a module that can be placed and removed at will, but an actual added part that is more involved in adding or removing. Also the depth upgrades would not do as much. Maybe add 10% per upgrade.
This would allow for more variety of submarines in the game and help make them more useful. Shallow diving subs would have more space, more speed or both. Medium subs would be a balanced compromise and deep diving subs would be cramped and slow. With alien tech improving these things.
Anyway, I hope I didn't bore anyone. I am just thinking out loud.
And thank you all for the feedback.
Comments
You obviously have not visited the lava zones, or the deeper trenches. Please find it at -75 -1070 130 and let me know how that works out for you in just a Prawn. Either that, or you're just one of those guys who wants their own fetish added, and force everyone to use it by making it be the only real option. 4000m, really?
Yeah, filed under "bad ideas." Possibly referenced under "unbalanced game design."
All that being said, I'd love to have the upgrades be permanent and visual, like you mentioned above. And as to pressure, it would be cool if they added the pings, creeks and pops of the pressure interacting with the hull as one goes deeper and passes through thermal layers.
I said at the top, this whole thing was a thought experiment. And giving ideas to the Devs. As Nocommonsense said, the devs are balancing a look of functionality with a look of awesomeness. Slack can be given there for sure. And I'm sure with well engineered design and the anti-pressure system that stevenwojo mentioned, the Cyclops could go under 1500m with no problems. And the alien super tech doesn't have to be explained to allow 2800m. It's more a fuction of role. The Seamoth should be able to go deeper than the Cyclops. Whatever that is. Even by a little bit.
As for the Russian sub, it uses a round tube stiffened by thick ribs. If the Cyclops was round it could dive to 1500m without support ribs and with only 3" thick hull. . And yes, I know the Cyclops has a ribbed structure. We see that by the pieces we find. It is possible that with the ribs supporting, the Cyclops would easily reach those depths with only a 2" thick hull. Relying on outer and inner hulls to support each other. The space between would also be the ballast tank area.
I'm not dissing the Cyclops. I use it more than anything else. I just wish the Seamoth would go deeper so I could use it in the deep along side the Cyclops.
But it was fun to mess around with this in the computer model.
I don't see how bringing the bulky Cyclops into the deepest confined places was a good idea. Seriously its 178 feet long.
However, your comments did give me a reason to rethink my original post and adjust the premise. So to that extent, I agree that you are right. The Cyclops is fine at its current diving capability.
Honestly I don't have a problem with the Cyclops diving to 1500m. But there should be a submarine that can be launched from the Cyclops at any depth the Cyclops can go. I know the Prawn can. And honestly, I DO like the Prawn's depth ratings and upgrades. They work for me. But either the Seamoth or another sub should be able to go deeper than the Cyclops.
So, that said I am going to edit my original post with some...more inline with the game numbers.
Thanks for your thoughts.
So yes, the Seamoth probably should function anywhere the Cyclops can, for realism. Think about gameplay, though?
The Seamoth is "flight" underwater. The PRAWN is more of an on-foot exploration, and much slower with less straight lines. If the devs make a massive facility that requires careful on-foot exploration via exosuit, that gives the player an immersive experience. Take your time, build a mental map of the place, stop and enjoy the journey. Like, the facility could wave it's plot-based hands and disable the jump jets on the PRAWN. This would result in more exploration and interaction than if the player could just zoom around in a Seamoth.
If they allow the Seamoth down to 1700m like the PRAWN, though? The player can bypass and ignore most of any walking, robbing themselves of part of the experience. The Cyclops is a mobile base, but it's big enough for fairly simple gating to keep it from being TOO useful.
Players will nearly always bull-rush the ending, then complain about the game being too short.
You always do make some really good points.
To EvilSmoo - Please try to be more tolerance to ideas of others. Remember that to criticize anyone mind do not need much. Try to understand opinion of another person and at least respect his opinion. You can tell us your opinion without to imply to someone that he 'fool' (as you write: Either that, or you're just one of those guys who wants their own fetish added, and force everyone to use it by making it be the only real optio)
Oh, I don't imply that I think people are fools. I tell them that outright, to their faces. I've gotten ornery lately. If I think an idea is good, I say so, and why. If I think an idea is bad, I do the exact same thing. Artorius' renders are decent, and his take on sub progression is weird. Dev time is at a premium, and maintaining 6 subs is unnecessary.
But you? You messaged me to look at an old thread you made, out of nowhere. I think you are a fool for that, and I'm not going to necropost your thread from May for you. See the difference?
yeah, if we remember HOW we fall down from the cliff in floating island and don't break legs and heads on touchdown
listen,... pal... if you call to someone 'fool' again - you can kiss goodbye this forum. Here chating different people with different opinions and all respect each other, except you. NO ONE here has no right to insult others. If someone have opinion which differnt from your opinion - its not make him 'fool'. Even after your words I do not allow to myself call you the same word. Maybe you can make a little work on youself?
Y'all both need to chill out, like now.
PMing people just to tell them to look at your old thread is still a skeevy thing to do. And now you're claiming to be a moderator as well?
I think you have a different definition of the word "fool" than I do, that's not a very harsh word, in English, anyway, if you're translating it to some deadly insult or something.
Maybe the original fetish line was a bit harsh, but his original numbers... I just don't see how that would make a fun game, given the current map. It limited the deepest, most dangerous areas to Seamoth, Prawn, and his own creation which is basically a combination of both, but better in every way. Having a few interesting options for different situations, and then obsoleting them by introducing a single "best" option is not good game design. And the fact that the "best" option was his suggestion just screams self-insert fanfiction to me.
The new numbers make more sense, but it still means you could just zoom around avoiding all the deep content in an agile Seamoth. Which is likely the reason that the Seamoth bottoms out at 900, if you think about it. This way, we're forced to putt around in a Cyclops to not get smashed around by Dragons, and harassed by those annoying little energy leeches. It's dangerous, hot, and annoying way down there, which is probably the idea.
Still... what is if the heat was what gates Seamoth, and not just pressure? Perhaps have Seamoth suffer from massive energy usage in cold areas <10C, and have it overheat and shut down (or explode!) when over 40C? That way it needs to avoid vents, and it chews up cells in Lost River.
This is a cool idea man.
This actually makes the deeper depth capability of the Seamoth a functional idea rather than a thought experiment. And it still forces the player to use the Cyclops for 90% of deep diving stuff. But lets the player use the Seamoth in situations suited for it. But doesn't offer many of them. Besides, leaving the big strong Cyclops to foray into the dark with a flimsy Seamoth would be heart-pounding for those times what you have to do it!
((and sorry if I made my deep diving sub better than anything in any way. It was supposed to be slow, and less capable in every way except depth. Which makes it redundant really. I like the Prawn so much that I didn't want to replace its role at all. My other subs are really redundant anyway. I really was trying to just throw ideas out there. My first numbers were total crap too. You guys helped me see that. So I thank you for that.
If designs like my subs were to ever be used, they would only really work in expansion packs with alternate maps where they could serve a useful purpose.
Maybe they could have pictures, pieces and broken examples of other machines and vehicles that are not available to use, but just showing that the human race has these other vehicles. Land, sea and air vehicle pictures, posters, parts and derelict machines and tools that serve little or no purpose for the player in this setting. But just as filler in and around the Aurora. Like the forklift, crates and such.))
I love realism but it wouldn't work with the subs due to breaking gameplay
Yeah, I understand that. It's why I brought it up. To consider the ramifications of the change. It changes too much. Oh well.