dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2017
There is something in NS2 called pregame. There you can choose the weapon or the lifeform you want to try it out, to warmup or to play a lifeform without getting punished when you die. A typical game starts when both sides have a commander, this can take a while sometimes.
So people have enough time in pregame to practise different parts of the game.
But what are people doing?
They going Onos.
I asked one why he is doing this. Answer: Its fun.
Well, this guy was getting slaughtered as skulk after roundstart. Is it the games fault that people dont use the already existing stuff so they become a better skulk, Lerk or whatever?
No.
And about the argument of "investing so much time to learn a lifeform":
You have to wait for a commander anyway. So whats the fuckin point of going Onos in pregame?
And there is already a NS wich have what you want @pagulhan, its called: NS2 Combat.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Pregame does give the vibe of "OI let's fool around until the game starts" though. Good intention aside of what it's intended purpose is, dem fools be fooling around yo
I vote free to play as well. None of my games on steam have been bought by myself, without the gift key from my Tremulous gaming clan, Knights of Reason, I wouldn't be playing NS2 even now unless I got gifted by a developer like I did for NS2: Combat.
Current NS2 numbers doesn't even compare to what Tremulous (free, open sourced aliens vs human shooter) had when they became 4 years old.
Current steam graphs for NS2 4 years after stat tracking started in late 2012, making Sept 2016 the 4 year anniversary of the stat tracking.
ns2 had about 500 peak players on September 2016, compared to the maximum in November 2012 of 7000 peak players , or an average of 200 compared to the maximum peak of 2800 average players.
That's pretty poor player retention compared to Tremulous when you look at this graph, which had a peak of about 6000 average unique players in a day, with 4 years later after stat tracking began, becoming 2500 unique players.
As proof of player retention, Tremulous still has games daily, even right now the game has 13 players distributed on two servers. I don't even have to check NS2, but I bet that's more than the total current number of players currently on all NS1, NS2 Combat, Russian NS2 servers, Active Japan servers AND AusNS2 servers combined RIGHT NOW.
... free, open sourced aliens vs human shooter) had when they became 4 years old.
You see, this is where your comparison fails. And no, im pretty sure NS2 (only) has more players than trem at any given time, 13 players barely fill a single server in NS2.
And f2p is not an option in a game where you have to THINK to play it properly. I'd rather not listen to 13yo kids screaming about losing their lerks to 2 shotties. quality > quantity
@_Grendel_ since when does sound advice count as elitism?
2008 was the start of the steam marketplace.
Today you have access to thousands of games, one click and you can play them 5 min later.
If you dont like a game, well. No problem, give it back and download another one within 5 min.
So today game developers have a great platform to distribute there games but on the other hand this platform can be the curse for them cause they have to compete against countless other titles.
People live for such a short time. Don't waste yours on writing lolposts man.
but the weapons can be recycled by your teammates
You mean someone takes if after your death. Well, you still lose it, don't you? It stays with your team but not with you.
your problem is with LEARNING the system.
Yeah, perhaps I used another words but that's true. For now new players have to learn a lot before they start enjoying the game (specifically, they have to stop dying). It's good to hear you want to make learning curve easier to deal with.
But please, stop blaming a good system for a big learning curve, and for the love of god, stop saying the best thing to do is to make it easier... easier to learn yes... easier to play no.
You missed my point. What I suggest is not making the learning curve lower but less painful so new players don't get irritated. Learning doesn't have to make you feel bad.
Also, as a side note... there have been posts saying "this game is dead" or "this game is dying" for the past 3 years... if it is dying, its doing it VERY slowly, and its not going down without a fight.
I'd make a joke about overzealous treatment but you know, I won't.
I know you're still pretty new to NS2, its clear by some of the things you're suggesting
I've got like 350 hours in since 2013 but yeah, I don't play like everyday. I come back from time to time (like now) and keep finding it you... well, you can't be bad to enjoy ns2 properly. Like if you're bad, you die. You die, you meet your rifle friend again. You're good, you get access to so much more. I just think the differance between being good and being bad is too high in terms of possibilities you have: a bad player is not only worse than a good one, their weapon is also worse as they cannot live long enough to make a good use of it.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Looks like you dont understand the roles of the weapons.
Like Lifeforms have a role (skulk: resbiting/scouting, lerk: area denie/support, fade: rinekiller, Onos:meatshield) every gun a role.
Thats part of the game.
And if people whining and quitting the game cause they die and lose there gun, well, maybe NS2 is not there game.
Can happen, i bought Titanfall2 recently but for me it was a horrible multiplayer experience. Refund and thats it.
And again, a Tremulous clone is coming to steam soon and we have NS2 Combat. So play the one or the other but ffs stop with your "Tremolous did everything right, it was so awesome. Lets transform NS2 into it".
NS2 is NS2 and thats why people play and love it.
You love Tremulous? Then play it.
In a half year i will necro this thread again and post the playercounts of Murnatan here.
Lets see what game has more players then.
Like Lifeforms have a role (skulk: resbiting/scouting, lerk: area denie/support, fade: rinekiller, Onos:meatshield) every gun a role.
Thats part of the game.
Yeah. Just like in every other game out there where you're not limited to one gun I suppose. Please don't think ns2's unique about that.
And if people whining and quitting the game cause they die and lose there gun, well, maybe NS2 is not there game.
Maybe you're right but I believe this is the exact reason this thread exists: how to prevent quitting the game.
I won't comment the latter part of your post as I already explained 3 times in a row it's not my intention to make another tremulous but you clearly don't bother to either read or to understande.
]Maybe you're right but I believe this is the exact reason this thread exists: how to prevent quitting the game.
You cant, so simple is that.
If people dont like a game for whatever reason, they quit.
There is no miracle "lets make everyone happy" option.
If people have bad aim, they getting wrecked. Doesnt matter if they run around with an shotgun nonstop.
If people dont understand the meta game, they lose nonstop.
Why is noone playing arena shooters anymore?
There simple, fast paced, nonstop action.
Cause dumbed down games like CoD and others had influence on multiple generations of gamers.
NS2 is more a oldschool game and thats why NS2 will never have a large playerbase.
Here is a video of Fatal1ty playing Toxxic and they discuss why noone is playing arena shooters anymore around 04:00 min mark:
I think these guys nailed it.
Is the solution to dumbdown every game so its super casual friendly? Hope not.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
@dePARA you might remember that ns2 combat was grat for that while it was still a mod in ns2. However combat alone is not enough to survive as a game. It is a good gamemode though.
Introducing a gamemode that does something similar would probably help alot, especially for a training environment.
I think the question is "do I, you or we want a larger player base? And why?" Once you identify this the rest is simply a matter of logistics (how? And to what end?).
Potential answers (probably not all inclusive..,)
1. I don't care I can find a game every day so I'm happy.
2. I don't care as long as the game doesn't change for that purpose.
3. I dont want a larger player base because more players means more beginners... which means boring games(not why people play NS)
4. I want more players!! I'm tired of seeing the same 50 people on the same 3 servers.
5. I want more players, there are to many "pro Pub" players in proportion to player base... so I feel like I don't contribute in relation.
6.I want more players... more beginners = more stomp!
7. I want more players... more players means more money!! (Server donations, UWE pockets, and maybe more game support/development)
I think Reasons 2 and 3 are the primary basis for anti F2P. I totally understand those feelings (3,000+ hrs NS2, at least that many in NS1, and 4000+ hive). The question is "is there a way to increase player base that doesn't alienate these people?"
Personally I think there F2P is the only realistic way to effectively increase player base. So figuring out "how to go F2P ?" Should be the actual discussion?
you meet an onos with rifle - you die. In tremulous if you were fast enough, you could kill the strongest alien form with a rifle. Here onos can simply stomp and bum, you're on the ground, defenseless.
What you are describing is NS2 without RTS elements.
While I agree that I'd probably enjoy NS2 more without an economy (or at least a more forgiving one), I cannot deny that it is what makes the game unique, and that many others would find it to be far less impactful gameplay - as twiliteblue pointed out.
This is why there's another thread up about training modes or alternate modes that are more casual and easier for a newer player to learn from.
NS2 classic will never be touched, but that doesn't mean alternate modes aren't an option. (last stand, combat, scatter's assault mode etc etc)
If it's legalities or whatever then simply change the name of the game mode. There should be no problem with someone recreating combat in all its glory...
It's not like faultline games has the rights to the gameplay of the combat mod...
It's not like faultline games has the rights to the gameplay of the combat mod...
An honest question, but if this is the case, does UWE own the gameplay around NS2? Could someone just rename all the alien names, make them look different enough and pretty much make the same game under a different name?
It's not like faultline games has the rights to the gameplay of the combat mod...
An honest question, but if this is the case, does UWE own the gameplay around NS2? Could someone just rename all the alien names, make them look different enough and pretty much make the same game under a different name?
I'm pretty sure you can't own gameplay. You just can't copy things like textures or models or sounds and stuff like that.
There's a million cstrike and cod and battlefield and quake clones.
So yea, you can just reskin combat mod if you wanted to do that. But I think some of you guys are underestimating just how much work that actually is.
On top of that, I have to say - combat mod was a great start, but it was not without its faults gameplay wise. What a shame it would be, to waste that much work only to repeat the exact same mistakes.
For starters, don't make a game that rewards tech for frags. It's obviously a vicious circle that's gonna cause huge snowball effects. Better to have a training mode with team based tech progression. Some sort of objective based game.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Nothing short of Combat being made an official gamemode for free is likely going to revitalize Combat. The playerbase that was already there for Combat has long since left or moved on.
Comments
So people have enough time in pregame to practise different parts of the game.
But what are people doing?
They going Onos.
I asked one why he is doing this. Answer: Its fun.
Well, this guy was getting slaughtered as skulk after roundstart. Is it the games fault that people dont use the already existing stuff so they become a better skulk, Lerk or whatever?
No.
And about the argument of "investing so much time to learn a lifeform":
You have to wait for a commander anyway. So whats the fuckin point of going Onos in pregame?
And there is already a NS wich have what you want @pagulhan, its called: NS2 Combat.
http://steamcharts.com/app/310110
That comparison is laughable. *snip* who can't see past your own jaded views.
Did you ever played combat? Its exact what Mr. "My idea will save NS2" want.
A big influx of newbies would allow skill segregation matchmaking fixing skill gap issue making it more enjoyable for everyone.
Ns2 free2play will not become abusive paytowin automatically calm your ponies.
Current NS2 numbers doesn't even compare to what Tremulous (free, open sourced aliens vs human shooter) had when they became 4 years old.
Current steam graphs for NS2 4 years after stat tracking started in late 2012, making Sept 2016 the 4 year anniversary of the stat tracking.
http://steamcharts.com/app/4920#All
ns2 had about 500 peak players on September 2016, compared to the maximum in November 2012 of 7000 peak players , or an average of 200 compared to the maximum peak of 2800 average players.
That's pretty poor player retention compared to Tremulous when you look at this graph, which had a peak of about 6000 average unique players in a day, with 4 years later after stat tracking began, becoming 2500 unique players.
As proof of player retention, Tremulous still has games daily, even right now the game has 13 players distributed on two servers. I don't even have to check NS2, but I bet that's more than the total current number of players currently on all NS1, NS2 Combat, Russian NS2 servers, Active Japan servers AND AusNS2 servers combined RIGHT NOW.
You see, this is where your comparison fails. And no, im pretty sure NS2 (only) has more players than trem at any given time, 13 players barely fill a single server in NS2.
And f2p is not an option in a game where you have to THINK to play it properly. I'd rather not listen to 13yo kids screaming about losing their lerks to 2 shotties.
quality > quantity
@_Grendel_ since when does sound advice count as elitism?
10 years ago steam was 3 years up and far away from what it is now.
http://kotaku.com/steam-is-10-today-remember-when-it-sucked-1297594444
2008 was the start of the steam marketplace.
Today you have access to thousands of games, one click and you can play them 5 min later.
If you dont like a game, well. No problem, give it back and download another one within 5 min.
So today game developers have a great platform to distribute there games but on the other hand this platform can be the curse for them cause they have to compete against countless other titles.
As i said before:
there is a Tremulous clone coming soon to steam called Murnatan
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=800465209
Im sure this game will have a hard time cause the reasons i posted here.
So comparing playercounts from the pre-Steam aera with current ones is kinda stupid.
Compare it with similar games (Asymmetric shooter with maybe RTS elements) and you see that NS2 is doing fine:
http://steamcharts.com/app/273350
http://steamcharts.com/app/366440
http://steamcharts.com/app/17710
http://steamcharts.com/app/274940
http://steamcharts.com/app/321360
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=188531&p=2209050#post2209050
You mean someone takes if after your death. Well, you still lose it, don't you? It stays with your team but not with you.
Yeah, perhaps I used another words but that's true. For now new players have to learn a lot before they start enjoying the game (specifically, they have to stop dying). It's good to hear you want to make learning curve easier to deal with.
You missed my point. What I suggest is not making the learning curve lower but less painful so new players don't get irritated. Learning doesn't have to make you feel bad.
I'd make a joke about overzealous treatment but you know, I won't.
I've got like 350 hours in since 2013 but yeah, I don't play like everyday. I come back from time to time (like now) and keep finding it you... well, you can't be bad to enjoy ns2 properly. Like if you're bad, you die. You die, you meet your rifle friend again. You're good, you get access to so much more. I just think the differance between being good and being bad is too high in terms of possibilities you have: a bad player is not only worse than a good one, their weapon is also worse as they cannot live long enough to make a good use of it.
Like Lifeforms have a role (skulk: resbiting/scouting, lerk: area denie/support, fade: rinekiller, Onos:meatshield) every gun a role.
Thats part of the game.
And if people whining and quitting the game cause they die and lose there gun, well, maybe NS2 is not there game.
Can happen, i bought Titanfall2 recently but for me it was a horrible multiplayer experience. Refund and thats it.
And again, a Tremulous clone is coming to steam soon and we have NS2 Combat. So play the one or the other but ffs stop with your "Tremolous did everything right, it was so awesome. Lets transform NS2 into it".
NS2 is NS2 and thats why people play and love it.
You love Tremulous? Then play it.
In a half year i will necro this thread again and post the playercounts of Murnatan here.
Lets see what game has more players then.
Maybe you're right but I believe this is the exact reason this thread exists: how to prevent quitting the game.
I won't comment the latter part of your post as I already explained 3 times in a row it's not my intention to make another tremulous but you clearly don't bother to either read or to understande.
You cant, so simple is that.
If people dont like a game for whatever reason, they quit.
There is no miracle "lets make everyone happy" option.
If people have bad aim, they getting wrecked. Doesnt matter if they run around with an shotgun nonstop.
If people dont understand the meta game, they lose nonstop.
Why is noone playing arena shooters anymore?
There simple, fast paced, nonstop action.
Cause dumbed down games like CoD and others had influence on multiple generations of gamers.
NS2 is more a oldschool game and thats why NS2 will never have a large playerbase.
Here is a video of Fatal1ty playing Toxxic and they discuss why noone is playing arena shooters anymore around 04:00 min mark:
Is the solution to dumbdown every game so its super casual friendly? Hope not.
*slowly backs away from thread*
Introducing a gamemode that does something similar would probably help alot, especially for a training environment.
Potential answers (probably not all inclusive..,)
1. I don't care I can find a game every day so I'm happy.
2. I don't care as long as the game doesn't change for that purpose.
3. I dont want a larger player base because more players means more beginners... which means boring games(not why people play NS)
4. I want more players!! I'm tired of seeing the same 50 people on the same 3 servers.
5. I want more players, there are to many "pro Pub" players in proportion to player base... so I feel like I don't contribute in relation.
6.I want more players... more beginners = more stomp!
7. I want more players... more players means more money!! (Server donations, UWE pockets, and maybe more game support/development)
I think Reasons 2 and 3 are the primary basis for anti F2P. I totally understand those feelings (3,000+ hrs NS2, at least that many in NS1, and 4000+ hive). The question is "is there a way to increase player base that doesn't alienate these people?"
Personally I think there F2P is the only realistic way to effectively increase player base. So figuring out "how to go F2P ?" Should be the actual discussion?
While I agree that I'd probably enjoy NS2 more without an economy (or at least a more forgiving one), I cannot deny that it is what makes the game unique, and that many others would find it to be far less impactful gameplay - as twiliteblue pointed out.
This is why there's another thread up about training modes or alternate modes that are more casual and easier for a newer player to learn from.
NS2 classic will never be touched, but that doesn't mean alternate modes aren't an option. (last stand, combat, scatter's assault mode etc etc)
If it's legalities or whatever then simply change the name of the game mode. There should be no problem with someone recreating combat in all its glory...
It's not like faultline games has the rights to the gameplay of the combat mod...
Yeah and a lot of the time it's a shat on the back.
An honest question, but if this is the case, does UWE own the gameplay around NS2? Could someone just rename all the alien names, make them look different enough and pretty much make the same game under a different name?
Obviously not.
There's a million cstrike and cod and battlefield and quake clones.
So yea, you can just reskin combat mod if you wanted to do that. But I think some of you guys are underestimating just how much work that actually is.
On top of that, I have to say - combat mod was a great start, but it was not without its faults gameplay wise. What a shame it would be, to waste that much work only to repeat the exact same mistakes.
For starters, don't make a game that rewards tech for frags. It's obviously a vicious circle that's gonna cause huge snowball effects. Better to have a training mode with team based tech progression. Some sort of objective based game.
Im really disappointed.
You missed some "disagrees" on some of my posts. Go 2 pages back, maybe you find them.