MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
A decent part of it comes back to the point I raised in the Exos thread - aliens snowball their positions on the map to a much greater degree than the marines. A skilled marine team doesn't have a snowball of their own, they're simply more effective at suppressing the alien snowball.
So their marines live longer (that isn't to say they kill more, they just die less), they also destroy more cysts and alien structures and they're more effective at "lane blocking/coverage".
if aliens are winning but aren't stomping. they individually feel like they're losing.
winning a close game on alien, isn't about dying less than when you lose a close game, it's about where you're dropping your corpses. you're flipping between 4 and 3 res on an 8 res map, and the marines are flipping between 3 and 5? congratulations, your skulks are suiciding into a lmg fire, but they're suiciding into useful places and you're winning.
i think people get a feeling for "winning" from their k/d. where intellectually they assess their "winning" from the res map.
on an individual level, if you're stomping as marine you could be stomping, you could be winning normally and you could very well be losing depending on where the stomping happens. you could have a k:d of 2:1 and still be losing.
on the alien side if you're stomping you're stomping. if you're trading in and your K/D is 1:1 you could be winning or losing.
skilled players aren't immune to "spawn queue" bias if you will. i'm an OK marine and an, in my eyes, equally ok skulk. that means when i win my marine gets a 2-3:1 k/d and my skulk gets 1-2:1 k/d. if i play defensive on both, while still contributing i can boost my k/d to 10:1 on lmg marine and 3-4:1 on skulk... and lmg and skulk is where i spend most of my time.
tldr:
the perception of winning is tied to K:D which is inherently a different ratio for lmg marines vs skulks in an equal game.
I disagree, or at least I can't relate at all. Whether I'm doing well or not individually is separate from my perception on how well the game is going. I usually have my map open enough that I know roughly what is going on in terms of who is holding where and how many RTs both teams have, although I tend to be more pessimistic in that I assume that the other team will cap their free RTs. This individual sense of winning or losing is rather baffling to be honest.
if aliens are winning but aren't stomping. they individually feel like they're losing.
winning a close game on alien, isn't about dying less than when you lose a close game, it's about where you're dropping your corpses. you're flipping between 4 and 3 res on an 8 res map, and the marines are flipping between 3 and 5? congratulations, your skulks are suiciding into a lmg fire, but they're suiciding into useful places and you're winning.
i think people get a feeling for "winning" from their k/d. where intellectually they assess their "winning" from the res map.
on an individual level, if you're stomping as marine you could be stomping, you could be winning normally and you could very well be losing depending on where the stomping happens. you could have a k:d of 2:1 and still be losing.
on the alien side if you're stomping you're stomping. if you're trading in and your K/D is 1:1 you could be winning or losing.
skilled players aren't immune to "spawn queue" bias if you will. i'm an OK marine and an, in my eyes, equally ok skulk. that means when i win my marine gets a 2-3:1 k/d and my skulk gets 1-2:1 k/d. if i play defensive on both, while still contributing i can boost my k/d to 10:1 on lmg marine and 3-4:1 on skulk... and lmg and skulk is where i spend most of my time.
tldr:
the perception of winning is tied to K:D which is inherently a different ratio for lmg marines vs skulks in an equal game.
I disagree, or at least I can't relate at all. Whether I'm doing well or not individually is separate from my perception on how well the game is going. I usually have my map open enough that I know roughly what is going on in terms of who is holding where and how many RTs both teams have, although I tend to be more pessimistic in that I assume that the other team will cap their free RTs. This individual sense of winning or losing is rather baffling to be honest.
you've never been in the situation where you seem to be the only person that seems to realize that you're losing? where you're thinking to yourself, holy shit, why aren't they pushing harder? aliens have been on 3-4 res for 5 minutes now... sure they're contained, but that's because they're perfectly happy sitting on 3-4 res and keeping our res down to 3-4 as well.
some of us focus on the res. but when i'm not thinking about it very much, i'll subconsciously gauge how the game is going by how many aliens i shoot or marines i bite down.
if aliens are winning but aren't stomping. they individually feel like they're losing.
winning a close game on alien, isn't about dying less than when you lose a close game, it's about where you're dropping your corpses. you're flipping between 4 and 3 res on an 8 res map, and the marines are flipping between 3 and 5? congratulations, your skulks are suiciding into a lmg fire, but they're suiciding into useful places and you're winning.
i think people get a feeling for "winning" from their k/d. where intellectually they assess their "winning" from the res map.
on an individual level, if you're stomping as marine you could be stomping, you could be winning normally and you could very well be losing depending on where the stomping happens. you could have a k:d of 2:1 and still be losing.
on the alien side if you're stomping you're stomping. if you're trading in and your K/D is 1:1 you could be winning or losing.
skilled players aren't immune to "spawn queue" bias if you will. i'm an OK marine and an, in my eyes, equally ok skulk. that means when i win my marine gets a 2-3:1 k/d and my skulk gets 1-2:1 k/d. if i play defensive on both, while still contributing i can boost my k/d to 10:1 on lmg marine and 3-4:1 on skulk... and lmg and skulk is where i spend most of my time.
tldr:
the perception of winning is tied to K:D which is inherently a different ratio for lmg marines vs skulks in an equal game.
I disagree, or at least I can't relate at all. Whether I'm doing well or not individually is separate from my perception on how well the game is going. I usually have my map open enough that I know roughly what is going on in terms of who is holding where and how many RTs both teams have, although I tend to be more pessimistic in that I assume that the other team will cap their free RTs. This individual sense of winning or losing is rather baffling to be honest.
you've never been in the situation where you seem to be the only person that seems to realize that you're losing? where you're thinking to yourself, holy shit, why aren't they pushing harder? aliens have been on 3-4 res for 5 minutes now... sure they're contained, but that's because they're perfectly happy sitting on 3-4 res and keeping our res down to 3-4 as well.
some of us focus on the res. but when i'm not thinking about it very much, i'll subconsciously gauge how the game is going by how many aliens i shoot or marines i bite down.
We're talking skilled games right? I mean my team concedes when we are on the verge of a lifeform explosion too, and they can see our number of RTs perfectly, but thats a typical half my team are dead weights game. I'm not saying its not true, just that I can't understand it. Those same guys go 1 for 10 whether they are winning or losing, they can't possibly be counting their kills as a measure.
if aliens are winning but aren't stomping. they individually feel like they're losing.
winning a close game on alien, isn't about dying less than when you lose a close game, it's about where you're dropping your corpses. you're flipping between 4 and 3 res on an 8 res map, and the marines are flipping between 3 and 5? congratulations, your skulks are suiciding into a lmg fire, but they're suiciding into useful places and you're winning.
i think people get a feeling for "winning" from their k/d. where intellectually they assess their "winning" from the res map.
on an individual level, if you're stomping as marine you could be stomping, you could be winning normally and you could very well be losing depending on where the stomping happens. you could have a k:d of 2:1 and still be losing.
on the alien side if you're stomping you're stomping. if you're trading in and your K/D is 1:1 you could be winning or losing.
skilled players aren't immune to "spawn queue" bias if you will. i'm an OK marine and an, in my eyes, equally ok skulk. that means when i win my marine gets a 2-3:1 k/d and my skulk gets 1-2:1 k/d. if i play defensive on both, while still contributing i can boost my k/d to 10:1 on lmg marine and 3-4:1 on skulk... and lmg and skulk is where i spend most of my time.
tldr:
the perception of winning is tied to K:D which is inherently a different ratio for lmg marines vs skulks in an equal game.
I disagree, or at least I can't relate at all. Whether I'm doing well or not individually is separate from my perception on how well the game is going. I usually have my map open enough that I know roughly what is going on in terms of who is holding where and how many RTs both teams have, although I tend to be more pessimistic in that I assume that the other team will cap their free RTs. This individual sense of winning or losing is rather baffling to be honest.
you've never been in the situation where you seem to be the only person that seems to realize that you're losing? where you're thinking to yourself, holy shit, why aren't they pushing harder? aliens have been on 3-4 res for 5 minutes now... sure they're contained, but that's because they're perfectly happy sitting on 3-4 res and keeping our res down to 3-4 as well.
some of us focus on the res. but when i'm not thinking about it very much, i'll subconsciously gauge how the game is going by how many aliens i shoot or marines i bite down.
We're talking skilled games right? I mean my team concedes when we are on the verge of a lifeform explosion too, and they can see our number of RTs perfectly, but thats a typical half my team are dead weights game. I'm not saying its not true, just that I can't understand it. Those same guys go 1 for 10 whether they are winning or losing, they can't possibly be counting their kills as a measure.
yeah, in skilled games it's more along the lines of.
fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck, are we up are we down? i'm going for 1:1, does this mean i'm doing badly? or does it mean i'm doing good? should we be pushing or defending right now? fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. goddamn, i'll be bait, hopefully the two guys behind me mop up over my dead body... fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck, we're 1:1 across the board, but so are they... we only have 3 res... but they haven't dropped us to 2, are we good, are we happy? why isn't the commander expanding? fuck fuck fuck, oh, that lerk is kicking ass, oh wait, we're winning? when the hell did that happen, let me go bite some res.
After watching the NS2 world competition back in the day, I saw the answer to this original question. Very highly skilled competitive players are god-like shots. They have likely played the fps genre more hours than many other people, not even including ns2. Where does this skill go? Marines. Everyone however is a rookie to the alien side when they first boot up ns2 , and so in that regard, competitive matches are likely to have wicked strong marines versus relatively not as strong aliens. Even in the current meta, good team work and an even match on a 6v6 (the competitive format) can shut down onos and will likely result in a doomed alien team if the reliance is solely on the late game onos. I think a big point being overlooked here is player count. Most of the data I have seen revolves around 10v10 or larger data, which is fine because most pub ns2 is indeed composed of larger teams. But larger teams are for lower skill players who need a larger team to have more map presence and more teammates to lean on if there is a rookie, because larger teams leads to each player needing to do less. For both sides this can be huge. For marines, it means that a front of 8 marines can block a lane and the other 3 are defending res, and for aliens only one gorge or one skulk can cause massive havoc behind marine front lines. In smaller games, things are different. When a 5v5 engagement breaks out or a room is being pushed, every player is of the highest importance, and if the teams are 6v6, most of the map is untouched in such engagements. Each marine's shooting and each aliens skill is crucial to the outcome. In very high skill games, one would expect the players that can use a rifle to out shoot aliens in most engagements, and in situations where commander skill is roughly equal, marines should really have the advantage in most small team games. Even in 8v8 however, one can see the balance change. More alien players means more people that can use lerks and fades to hold off for onos res and then onos explosions can decimate marine structures. In a 6v6, the aliens rarely have the luxury of such time to save for onos, as only a feasible maximum of 2 people can save for onos without crippling the early and mid game. Even in 8v8, lanes can be pushed during other larger engagements, while in smaller games, hail mary plays require the entire team to be successful. This makes me believe that ns2 is really designed for team counts around 7. At 7 players, there is flexibility for alien life form choice and some wiggle room for flashed lerks and fades, and marines have enough players to both push and do limited back capping/defense of naturals.
The final point I wish to cover here, that I'm a bit surprised was overlooked, was structure health. I can usually tell when someone isn't familiar with small game formats instantly when I hear the commander telling me to grenade rush a hive. Why? Because a hive has a staggering amount of health for one, two, three, four marines to knock out with grenades, or even most simple weapons (unless the alien team is mostly dead). In 12v12 or more team sizes though, a marine rush can devastate a hive in seconds. This especially applies to onos explosions and phase gates. Phase gate hp is forced to be balanced for small play, because in a 6v6, a high health phase means the aliens are screwed. The hp of a phase gate now however, with the average team size being about 10, is in my experience not adequate for the current meta of onos explosions and bile rushes. NS2 in my eyes was not designed to have 5 gorges bile down a phase gate or the aliens ever have the time or ability to save up for three or more onos. Again this is because three onos on ANY structure usually results in its destruction in too short a time to be reasonable, as the marines struggle to drop such important structures at every point in the game if there are aliens present.
Of course, feel free to disagree (and if you do, please say so! I want to hear everyone else's opinions) or agree as you see fit, and Nordic thank you for posting about these fascinating statistics.
Comments
So their marines live longer (that isn't to say they kill more, they just die less), they also destroy more cysts and alien structures and they're more effective at "lane blocking/coverage".
I disagree, or at least I can't relate at all. Whether I'm doing well or not individually is separate from my perception on how well the game is going. I usually have my map open enough that I know roughly what is going on in terms of who is holding where and how many RTs both teams have, although I tend to be more pessimistic in that I assume that the other team will cap their free RTs. This individual sense of winning or losing is rather baffling to be honest.
you've never been in the situation where you seem to be the only person that seems to realize that you're losing? where you're thinking to yourself, holy shit, why aren't they pushing harder? aliens have been on 3-4 res for 5 minutes now... sure they're contained, but that's because they're perfectly happy sitting on 3-4 res and keeping our res down to 3-4 as well.
some of us focus on the res. but when i'm not thinking about it very much, i'll subconsciously gauge how the game is going by how many aliens i shoot or marines i bite down.
We're talking skilled games right? I mean my team concedes when we are on the verge of a lifeform explosion too, and they can see our number of RTs perfectly, but thats a typical half my team are dead weights game. I'm not saying its not true, just that I can't understand it. Those same guys go 1 for 10 whether they are winning or losing, they can't possibly be counting their kills as a measure.
yeah, in skilled games it's more along the lines of.
fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck, are we up are we down? i'm going for 1:1, does this mean i'm doing badly? or does it mean i'm doing good? should we be pushing or defending right now? fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. goddamn, i'll be bait, hopefully the two guys behind me mop up over my dead body... fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck, we're 1:1 across the board, but so are they... we only have 3 res... but they haven't dropped us to 2, are we good, are we happy? why isn't the commander expanding? fuck fuck fuck, oh, that lerk is kicking ass, oh wait, we're winning? when the hell did that happen, let me go bite some res.
The final point I wish to cover here, that I'm a bit surprised was overlooked, was structure health. I can usually tell when someone isn't familiar with small game formats instantly when I hear the commander telling me to grenade rush a hive. Why? Because a hive has a staggering amount of health for one, two, three, four marines to knock out with grenades, or even most simple weapons (unless the alien team is mostly dead). In 12v12 or more team sizes though, a marine rush can devastate a hive in seconds. This especially applies to onos explosions and phase gates. Phase gate hp is forced to be balanced for small play, because in a 6v6, a high health phase means the aliens are screwed. The hp of a phase gate now however, with the average team size being about 10, is in my experience not adequate for the current meta of onos explosions and bile rushes. NS2 in my eyes was not designed to have 5 gorges bile down a phase gate or the aliens ever have the time or ability to save up for three or more onos. Again this is because three onos on ANY structure usually results in its destruction in too short a time to be reasonable, as the marines struggle to drop such important structures at every point in the game if there are aliens present.
Of course, feel free to disagree (and if you do, please say so! I want to hear everyone else's opinions) or agree as you see fit, and Nordic thank you for posting about these fascinating statistics.