Sort of partially agree. Average players still can't use the railgun well so they're likely not going to land two RG shots in quick succession on a lerk/fade.. It's moreso a worry about getting Wobinated.
If the projectile size is nerfed a little then the RG is in a fine place
I don't understand this logic that keeps getting recommended in this thread.
If the issue is what good shooters can do with the RG, why do you think making it require better accuracy is going to affect said skilled players??
The only thing that will do is make it harder to use for low to medium skilled players. Good shooters will remain unaffected.
If anyone remembers, this is precisely why the rifle spread and projectile sizes were increased years ago. Pin point accurate spread and tiny bullet size was still lethal for good shooters, while the other two tiers of players suffered. Increasing both those elements meant that good shots could still perform roughly the same.. but the other two tiers of skill could land way more shots now. Believe it or not, it took a few patches to apply the same concept to the RG.
The better approach to this issue imo is the aforementioned one, regarding removing instant double shots.
I think I mentioned in a different comment that I often land shots that I don't even think I deserved to land. This is because the projectile size is too large - it seems so unfair on the aliens too. You're correct to say that this makes it more difficult for low-med skilled players but they shouldn't be using it anyway. In the same sense, high-skilled players shouldn't be using flamethrowers. You might wish to make the argument that everything should be potentially useable by all skill levels, but I don't think that means they should have equal utility, proportionate to a player's skill.
On the other hand, it makes it more difficult for high-level players players to land the shot. They're the ones we're worried about anyway - I reiterate, lower skilled players should not be using it at all. The other option is to make it one rail, and one fist, but if they do that, I don't see that it is worth the 45pres, and would rather go dual minigun. This of course assumes that you keep the dual railgun.
If you get rid of it, fine. I have a feeling you're of the view that everything should be useable by everyone. I agree. But useable doesn't mean they would be of equal utility. For example, you can command if it's your first ever minute of NS2, but it would make more sense to play on the field until you have a better idea of what the game is about. In the same way, don't use the railgun if you've got really bad aim. Don't use the shotgun if you're bad at twitch aiming. Maybe spend your res on LMG/HMG, JPs, and maybe a minigun exos.
The rifle is your default weapon so I can understand why the precision was lowered. I don't think the same need necessarily be applied to the RG. I wouldn't mind them ending the instant double shot burst and nerfing the projectile size.
I think there are a bunch of issues here worth sorting out:
1. Elite players are just too good with railguns. Their lifeform popping capabilities are OP.
-- I think a lot of players here would agree with this. Reducing projectile size won't help this problem, but some sort of damage nerf would. This could involve damage dropoff, moving to only one railgun+claw, or messing with cooldown timing.
2. Average players are suddenly capable of taking down elite lerks/fades.
-- But as maD maX (and others) ask, what's the big deal? Isn't it *good* if the late game, expensive railgun can counter early/mid game lifeforms, even in the hands of mid-skill players? This sounds pretty persuasive to me, but the devil is in the details. I think it should be *pretty easy* for mid-skill players to kill lerks with railguns, I just think it's *too* easy right now. It should take some skill to land a shot on a far off dodging lerk. That's all I'm asking for. And keep in mind, it's not just the good lerks that suffer here - in fact, it's the lower skill lerks that are most likely to suffer at the hands of railguns. For example, if I hear a railgun, I know that I need to go hang out on the other side of the map. But newer players will just feed their expensive lifeforms to railguns until they have no pres left. I proposed the projectile change primarily to address this issue.
3. New players are useless with railguns. They instantly die and can't hit anything. The fiddly dual charge system is awkward.
-- Like I said above, I don't see this as a major issue. Compare: New players are useless with lerks/fades. They instantly die and can't kill anything. The movement is awkward for them.
(To be clear, I'm open to changes that would improve the new player experience for both railguns and lerks/fades, but I don't think that, for instance, having a massive projectile size is the right way to go about doing this.)
4. Railguns, when used in conjunction with minis during a hive push, are too effective. They ruin what would otherwise be fun, climactic team fights.
-- Obviously this is related to the above, but it's worth stressing again. Some of the best ns2 moments are the big teamfights that occur during hive pushes. Lerks are essential parts of hive defenses, but against minimally competent railguns they are completely nullified. You might as well go bite res, because you just can't spike those exos. This applies whether the railgun/lerk is elite or average. I think this is bad for balance and bad for the gameplay experience.
5. Finally, I want to say something about an argument alluded to by Wob (unclear whether he actually endorses it). The thought is something like "so what if marine's late game tech is very strong, given that late game (3-hive) alien tech is game ending?" But it's not a reasonable comparison, given that it's *way* easier to get exos than to get three hives, full biomass, and all relevant abilities.
-- (The difference is also amplified by the fact that you can just skip weapon upgrades when rushing exos; iirc, they do absolutely nothing for railguns. Actually, this may be a minor tweak that would improve railguns - make their damage scale with weapons upgrades, such that you can't pop lifeforms before w3. I still wouldn't like this, but it would be an improvement.)
I think there are a bunch of issues here worth sorting out:
1. Elite players are just too good with railguns. Their lifeform popping capabilities are OP.
-- I think a lot of players here would agree with this. Reducing projectile size won't help this problem, but some sort of damage nerf would. This could involve damage dropoff, moving to only one railgun+claw, or messing with cooldown timing.
I think the damage nerf or reduction in firing rate of the railgun are the most effective options, although I would appreciate a projectile size nerf nonetheless. Getting kills when I don't think I landed is as unrewarding as getting kills that I know are due to interp.
Some random ideas: Instead of buying a dual rail or minigun exo, let players choose which arm has what armament, as long as it doesn't have two railguns. You already could mix up the fist, minigun, and railgun, but I'm sure other weapons could be introduced as well. Make them all exo-sized: Heavy flamethrowers, shrapnel cannons (think a big shotgun), grenade launchers, industrial welders, a big shield because why not, etc. Perhaps you could even restrict the exos from having two longer ranged weapons, and instead ask them to have one long range weapon system and one short range weapon system/equipment. Of course, this brings up another issue if you are familiar with the MAX from Planetside 2. If you don't pair identical or very similar weapon systems, the whole suit becomes ineffective. A single AA gun won't be any good at shooting down anyone, a single AV weapon won't take out any tanks, etc. The same could apply to exos that don't have two of the same arm.
Just some random thoughts I had while revisiting the forums again.
Guys, I have a great, innovative idea that allows for player choice and adapting to different situations:
First, you buy an exo with a fist and a gun, for a slightly lower price than the current exos. Then, if you can afford it, you can just buy a second gun and have a dual exo!
5. Finally, I want to say something about an argument alluded to by Wob (unclear whether he actually endorses it). The thought is something like "so what if marine's late game tech is very strong, given that late game (3-hive) alien tech is game ending?" But it's not a reasonable comparison, given that it's *way* easier to get exos than to get three hives, full biomass, and all relevant abilities.
-- (The difference is also amplified by the fact that you can just skip weapon upgrades when rushing exos; iirc, they do absolutely nothing for railguns. Actually, this may be a minor tweak that would improve railguns - make their damage scale with weapons upgrades, such that you can't pop lifeforms before w3. I still wouldn't like this, but it would be an improvement.)
Actually the thought is "don't let them get there in the first place". Even though exos can be rushed, no upgrade marines can and should be dominated by an alien team not to mention lerks will always be up before exos can be.
Just like "don't let aliens get 3rd hive". Granted it's easier to get exos, but exos aren't a game winning tech in the same way stomp/Xeno/contaminate are.
There was a mod made by Scatter that did just this. It was called something like Enhanced Exo. I believe the LF server still runs a version of it, where they took his code and call it Enforced Exo or something. Regardless of the name, the problem was not the power of the exo, it was the complexity. You would get players looking at the exo menu for a minute or more as they decided which components to use. A whole minute or more with multiple marines staring at a menu is a problem in NS2.
There was a mod made by Scatter that did just this. It was called something like Enhanced Exo. I believe the LF server still runs a version of it, where they took his code and call it Enforced Exo or something. Regardless of the name, the problem was not the power of the exo, it was the complexity. You would get players looking at the exo menu for a minute or more as they decided which components to use. A whole minute or more with multiple marines staring at a menu is a problem in NS2.
That's the issue with having a lot of options in an environment where every second counts, only way around that would be the ability to save a custom loadout for you to use ingame and offering the usual presets alongside it.
i wonder if this isnt an argument better suited to comp mod. sorry hobbes, i think if it takes a pubber to buy a railgun to finally end your lerk, then its doin just what it was intended to do. mostly i just lol when i see rails in pubs. exceedingly easy to kill as an onos, which is usually about the time i see em out. the wobs in railguns are too few and far between among the general public imo to justify changes to nilla rails.
-- Like I said above, I don't see this as a major issue. Compare: New players are useless with lerks/fades. They instantly die and can't kill anything. The movement is awkward for them.
Yea.. but two wrongs don't make a right. One shouldn't justify design flaws by pointing to other cases of it, right? :-/
Maybe the issue with exos is that there is no real movement skill tied to that. It is mainly about positioning and aiming with the exo (feel free to correct me @Wob ). If there would be a way for exos to dodge I think it could be more fun to play.
Yes! I've been saying this for years. IMHO the one massive deficit when it comes to Exos is their *combat* mobility (not travel).
Newer players too easily get into a bad position and cannot recover in time. And sometimes it seems like the most effective exos are the ones who just guard a long hallway forever, because moving any closer is just too great of a risk. I think this creates boring /frustrating gameplay where there's less of a skillful or interesting interaction.
I think a more useful thruster could be used to not only make them more forgiving to lesser skilled mistakes, but also enable more engaging combat.
A thruster that moves you really fast but has a pretty long cooldown (to prevent being used for travel) might do the trick.
sometimes it seems like the most effective exos are the ones who just guard a long hallway forever
In my experience, this works because aliens all flock to the exo. I am not sure if they do this because they think it is an easy kill, or if they perceive it to be a threat. This same behavior is visible elsewhere.
Be a marine in the skylights vent on veil. You will get skulk after skulk who try to get to you one by one. You look like candy in there or something.
The other day on docking I got into generator before the gorge did. I killed the gorge. Then I had 5 skulks come in one by one trying to kill me. Then finally three skulks grouped together and killed me.
Pub players follow some very sheep like behavior sometimes. I see myself do it all too often even though I know better. I only realize I did it afterwords.
A railgun can be very good bait. I will get low skill and high skill aliens come at me as if I am a low skill pubber. Pop, there goes a lerk. Pop, there goes a fade. Pop, Pop, pop, there goes three skulks. Boom, the onos got me.
I am by no means a wob level player. I am several leagues below that. Meph is a couple notches above me. Ironhorse and Tussio are a notch above me. I am the kind of mid level pubber hobbes is complaining about here. The power of the railgun in my hands comes not from it being OP, but from what the other player assumes my railgun is capable of. If the players had proper expectations, ambushed, or grouped up my railgun would not be so effective.
This sounds an awful lot like we're going to go down the root of "don't run into railguns, or any other ranged weapon, down corridors" and the underlying message behind that is... L2P tah daaaaaah
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited April 2017
I'd like to fix the fiddly charge restrictions, just because they are annoying and counterintuitive. My proposal:
Remove all restrictions on when they can charge. When both are charging, they charge at half rate. When both are charging, their maximum charge level is 75% of full charge.
This would make them much smoother to use (they'd always respond to your clicks) and would give you a trade-off to make between burst damage and dps.
Watched epic-vail stream the other day and 3 rounds in a row he went rail-fun. He was clearly the best player on the server and went from a 4-1 (lmg)KD to a 20-1 (rail)k/d... is that OP? If it is then onos is OP(which on PUBs it is).
Rail and onos are great PUB lifeforms, both do high player damage AND high structure damage. Rail guns get the bonus of extreme range and onos are super fast; both of which allows a singl skilled player to harass/protect a large area. Add to that pretty hefty armor and an uncoordinated enemy is SOL.
I think this is one of the issues that comp players have with rail/onos on PUB servers. Fade/lerks/gorges/SG/etc just arnt well rounded individualy each having a huge gap in ability that relies heavily on teamwork to fill. On a pub you can't "expect" that team work; so a fade will clear a System gate yelling for support but no one will come and a fade can't kill a gate by himself... but that onos who comes across a underprotected gate smashes it.
Actually the thought is "don't let them get there in the first place". Even though exos can be rushed, no upgrade marines can and should be dominated by an alien team not to mention lerks will always be up before exos can be.
Just like "don't let aliens get 3rd hive". Granted it's easier to get exos, but exos aren't a game winning tech in the same way stomp/Xeno/contaminate are.
Was that the thought? If so, it doesn't seem very persuasive. I say railguns are too good, you say don't let them get exos. That doesn't really address my concerns. After all, when someone complains about OP onoses with boneshield (and they certainly are OP), you could similarly just say 'don't let them get onoses'. But that just ignores the problem.
Some other points: (i) if you are rushing exos, you'll still get a2 first, and a2 marines can often hold the lines until exos (particularly on certain maps, like tram); (ii) even if you're not rushing exos, you'll still have the option of getting them in many games, and even when going for exos at a leisurely pace, you'll get there far before aliens get 3 hives. I just don't see the comparison with endgame alien tech as being very illuminating.
i wonder if this isnt an argument better suited to comp mod. sorry hobbes, i think if it takes a pubber to buy a railgun to finally end your lerk, then its doin just what it was intended to do. mostly i just lol when i see rails in pubs. exceedingly easy to kill as an onos, which is usually about the time i see em out. the wobs in railguns are too few and far between among the general public imo to justify changes to nilla rails.
Tis not for my own sake I make these appeals. Please, think of the poor lerklings! Won't someone please think of the lerklings!
-- Like I said above, I don't see this as a major issue. Compare: New players are useless with lerks/fades. They instantly die and can't kill anything. The movement is awkward for them.
Yea.. but two wrongs don't make a right. One shouldn't justify design flaws by pointing to other cases of it, right? :-/
Yeah, you have a point. But like I said in the part after the bit you quoted, I'm open to some newbie-friendly changes more than others. I just think that increasing the projectile size - turning misses into hits - is not the right sort of way to improve the new player experience. (I'd have to think more about exactly *why* this bugs me so much, but I just keep thinking "No Overwatchification!")
(Although maybe I am being a little hypocritical here. For a long time I've pushed for expanding the lerk bite cone to help newer players (making it easier for them to land bites while swooping around, discouraging the stationary biting that gets them killed). It's kinda similar. But if you *do* want to insist on the increased projectile size for railguns, can we also increase the lerk bite cone?)
I am by no means a wob level player. I am several leagues below that. Meph is a couple notches above me. Ironhorse and Tussio are a notch above me. I am the kind of mid level pubber hobbes is complaining about here. The power of the railgun in my hands comes not from it being OP, but from what the other player assumes my railgun is capable of. If the players had proper expectations, ambushed, or grouped up my railgun would not be so effective.
I don't know about this. I assume that the railgun is capable of one-shotting my lerk, and plan appropriately. I still die. It's not like I'm running down corridors at well-positioned railguns. Usually they see me off in the far distance and *pop*.
----
Last thing: I wholeheartedly agree that discouraging stationary exo play is the way to go.
A thruster that moves you really fast but has a pretty long cooldown (to prevent being used for travel) might do the trick.
Totally not in favor of this. All it does is act as a long cd get-out-of-jail-free card (like that stupid blink mechanic in LoL) and does not actually do anything to increase combat mobility.
And sometimes it seems like the most effective exos are the ones who just guard a long hallway forever, because moving any closer is just too great of a risk. I think this creates boring /frustrating gameplay where there's less of a skillful or interesting interaction.
That's a design flaw with exosuits in general, they're essentially mobile turrets with infinite ammo that can easily sustain themselves in one long corridor with a mac. There's nothing required from them as they're exempt from the duties of other marines so the only thing they need to do is just shoot from the longest distance possible.
No welding, no building, no commanding, no phasing, no getting beaconed, no ammo required, no health required. Gameplay wise they're essentially a ranged alien on the marine team that marines can chestburst from.
If it has a super long cooldown it allows you to move during combat exactly once. That's not really mobility.
The alternative is allowing exo walk speed to increase, which can cause all sorts of byproducts, from affecting map travel speed to floor skulks possibly always being outpaced in combat.
It's better to allow a skillfully employed mechanic/ability that's well timed imo.
It keeps it as a get out of jail free card for poorly positioned lower skilled players, or it can enable more risky play by quickly re-positioning in combat when swarmed or when truly needed.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Since Exos have the eject feature, I'd like to think of them as "powerful weapons that takes you down with it". Good pilots can ditch the suit just before they explode, guns blazing. This could win the engagement and territory, but possibly at the cost of the suit. The cost of purchasing a shotgun/HMG and an Exo is rather expensive though.
Since Exos have the eject feature, I'd like to think of them as "powerful weapons that takes you down with it". Good pilots can ditch the suit just before they explode, guns blazing. This could win the engagement and territory, but possibly at the cost of the suit. The cost of purchasing a shotgun/HMG and an Exo is rather expensive though.
Given the RT biting of most players, not expensive enough.
Honestly though I think the prices are in the right place. I'd like to see it possible for a commander to drop exos, though. Perhaps with two CCs? The alien comm can drop Onos eggs with 9 bio..
I like the idea of tying exo armament (or the suit itself) to two tech-points (as it had been awhile ago). It makes the tech-path obvious for aliens and burdens the marine economy.
It would also have the benefit of denying one-base marine turtles. It happens far too often on pubs, when 5+ minutes are about aliens getting the biomass to contaminate and wait for enough lifeforms to overrun the single marine tech-point.
Sure, marines could concede, but why would they when they've finally bought that suit and are getting some action?
Damage dropoff for railguns based on distance is also a good idea, as it would make lerks and fades much less vulnerable when spiking/fleeing.
I like the idea of tying exo armament (or the suit itself) to two tech-points (as it had been awhile ago). It makes the tech-path obvious for aliens and burdens the marine economy.
It would also have the benefit of denying one-base marine turtles. It happens far too often on pubs, when 5+ minutes are about aliens getting the biomass to contaminate and wait for enough lifeforms to overrun the single marine tech-point.
Sure, marines could concede, but why would they when they've finally bought that suit and are getting some action?
Damage dropoff for railguns based on distance is also a good idea, as it would make lerks and fades much less vulnerable when spiking/fleeing.
Agreed. Maybe to get dual guns you need two CCs. Oh also, for the last part, maybe the beam size drops off with distance too, so it's easier to save yourself when they're in close, but much tougher to snipe mothers.
2 TP exos won't change anything other than making exos less appealing through increased tres cost.
If the marines can't afford or hold a second tech point, then they usually can't afford to buy exos. Marine base turteling exos are not an issue. At least they're not more of an issue than a turteling JP+HMG.
2 TP exos won't change anything other than making exos less appealing through increased tres cost.
Afaik they removed the 2CC restriction to emphasize team asymmetry.
But, what's the point of a second marine CC to begin with? The only benefits I see are these three:
* beaconing to that spot - obs is required too, so most probably you have half/full base there
* denying instalose on alien baserush
* denying sneaky hivedrop
All of these are counter-measures, and not related to the tech-tree or marine abilities in any way (maybe the beacon could be considered to).
The marines don't need a second CC to win an average pub game. (for the better or worse)
If the marines can't afford or hold a second tech point, then they usually can't afford to buy exos. Marine base turteling exos are not an issue. At least they're not more of an issue than a turteling JP+HMG.
The previous is more a question of taste, so this is my main argument:
On pubs, JPs die like crazy. No one is welding foot soldiers unfortunately. Exos have a higher chance of being welded, but that tendency is poor too.
You cannot effectively turtle on pubs with JPs. After killing a wave, they will go out and try to be aggressive, and they only die.
I know how to play JPs, dont get me wrong, but I see this with other players, even regular ones. They just get swatted like flies by fades.
I regularly see games (on 8bit, where i usually play), when marines are slowly pushed back to their naturals, and then they lose those too not soon after. The game is most probably lost by that time (comp players would be conceding), but if they get exos they can hold out for a couple more minutes.
While I'm a great advocate of balancing around competitive play, I don't think this would affect comp matches THAT much, but would have a great effect on pub games.
Marines would be forced to get a second tech point if they want to get exos, they can't just sit on their naturals and wait for the pain train.
Imo, it would be counter productive, because marine commanders will more likely invest TRES into useless chairs and observatories for exos, which could be a weapons 3 upgrade or catalyst packs, both of which are guaranteed to be useful.
It doesn't fix the exos problems, it just makes them appear less.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2017
@Bicsum That seems to be a bit of a reductionist point of view, no offense.
The appearance frequency of Exos aren't mainly due to tech requirements or tech paths, but rather the timings of such. Timings that are due to research times and costs that can be changed.
One comparison is the average timing of Oni compared to JPs (2 minutes earlier) or Exos (3 1/2 to 6 min earlier) .. and a lot can happen in that window of time.
Keeping that in mind, if you were attach both Prototype Lab items and A3/W3 to a 2nd chair and reduced the costs of chairs (as well as build times) to compensate, then you essentially have greatly reduced the strength of turtling marines... and doing so permits you to finally lessen the OP Tier 3 tech of aliens.
This can help remove the "3rd hive was just dropped, GG" scenario .. and it can even help remove the "They've got JPs/Exos/W3 already, GG" as well, since you'd only need to snipe that forward base/chair to knock them back, instead of a full on base rush.
Having a stable early game and a fragile late game should help produce a more engaging round.
In short, imo such a change isn't so much a burden upon marines (esp considering you can easily adjust around it) as it is a change that allows a cascade of improvements to occur.
Comments
I think I mentioned in a different comment that I often land shots that I don't even think I deserved to land. This is because the projectile size is too large - it seems so unfair on the aliens too. You're correct to say that this makes it more difficult for low-med skilled players but they shouldn't be using it anyway. In the same sense, high-skilled players shouldn't be using flamethrowers. You might wish to make the argument that everything should be potentially useable by all skill levels, but I don't think that means they should have equal utility, proportionate to a player's skill.
On the other hand, it makes it more difficult for high-level players players to land the shot. They're the ones we're worried about anyway - I reiterate, lower skilled players should not be using it at all. The other option is to make it one rail, and one fist, but if they do that, I don't see that it is worth the 45pres, and would rather go dual minigun. This of course assumes that you keep the dual railgun.
If you get rid of it, fine. I have a feeling you're of the view that everything should be useable by everyone. I agree. But useable doesn't mean they would be of equal utility. For example, you can command if it's your first ever minute of NS2, but it would make more sense to play on the field until you have a better idea of what the game is about. In the same way, don't use the railgun if you've got really bad aim. Don't use the shotgun if you're bad at twitch aiming. Maybe spend your res on LMG/HMG, JPs, and maybe a minigun exos.
The rifle is your default weapon so I can understand why the precision was lowered. I don't think the same need necessarily be applied to the RG. I wouldn't mind them ending the instant double shot burst and nerfing the projectile size.
1. Elite players are just too good with railguns. Their lifeform popping capabilities are OP.
-- I think a lot of players here would agree with this. Reducing projectile size won't help this problem, but some sort of damage nerf would. This could involve damage dropoff, moving to only one railgun+claw, or messing with cooldown timing.
2. Average players are suddenly capable of taking down elite lerks/fades.
-- But as maD maX (and others) ask, what's the big deal? Isn't it *good* if the late game, expensive railgun can counter early/mid game lifeforms, even in the hands of mid-skill players? This sounds pretty persuasive to me, but the devil is in the details. I think it should be *pretty easy* for mid-skill players to kill lerks with railguns, I just think it's *too* easy right now. It should take some skill to land a shot on a far off dodging lerk. That's all I'm asking for. And keep in mind, it's not just the good lerks that suffer here - in fact, it's the lower skill lerks that are most likely to suffer at the hands of railguns. For example, if I hear a railgun, I know that I need to go hang out on the other side of the map. But newer players will just feed their expensive lifeforms to railguns until they have no pres left. I proposed the projectile change primarily to address this issue.
3. New players are useless with railguns. They instantly die and can't hit anything. The fiddly dual charge system is awkward.
-- Like I said above, I don't see this as a major issue. Compare: New players are useless with lerks/fades. They instantly die and can't kill anything. The movement is awkward for them.
(To be clear, I'm open to changes that would improve the new player experience for both railguns and lerks/fades, but I don't think that, for instance, having a massive projectile size is the right way to go about doing this.)
4. Railguns, when used in conjunction with minis during a hive push, are too effective. They ruin what would otherwise be fun, climactic team fights.
-- Obviously this is related to the above, but it's worth stressing again. Some of the best ns2 moments are the big teamfights that occur during hive pushes. Lerks are essential parts of hive defenses, but against minimally competent railguns they are completely nullified. You might as well go bite res, because you just can't spike those exos. This applies whether the railgun/lerk is elite or average. I think this is bad for balance and bad for the gameplay experience.
5. Finally, I want to say something about an argument alluded to by Wob (unclear whether he actually endorses it). The thought is something like "so what if marine's late game tech is very strong, given that late game (3-hive) alien tech is game ending?" But it's not a reasonable comparison, given that it's *way* easier to get exos than to get three hives, full biomass, and all relevant abilities.
-- (The difference is also amplified by the fact that you can just skip weapon upgrades when rushing exos; iirc, they do absolutely nothing for railguns. Actually, this may be a minor tweak that would improve railguns - make their damage scale with weapons upgrades, such that you can't pop lifeforms before w3. I still wouldn't like this, but it would be an improvement.)
I think the damage nerf or reduction in firing rate of the railgun are the most effective options, although I would appreciate a projectile size nerf nonetheless. Getting kills when I don't think I landed is as unrewarding as getting kills that I know are due to interp.
Just some random thoughts I had while revisiting the forums again.
Boxing exo confirmed.
First, you buy an exo with a fist and a gun, for a slightly lower price than the current exos. Then, if you can afford it, you can just buy a second gun and have a dual exo!
Just like "don't let aliens get 3rd hive". Granted it's easier to get exos, but exos aren't a game winning tech in the same way stomp/Xeno/contaminate are.
That's the issue with having a lot of options in an environment where every second counts, only way around that would be the ability to save a custom loadout for you to use ingame and offering the usual presets alongside it.
Yes! I've been saying this for years.
Newer players too easily get into a bad position and cannot recover in time. And sometimes it seems like the most effective exos are the ones who just guard a long hallway forever, because moving any closer is just too great of a risk. I think this creates boring /frustrating gameplay where there's less of a skillful or interesting interaction.
I think a more useful thruster could be used to not only make them more forgiving to lesser skilled mistakes, but also enable more engaging combat.
A thruster that moves you really fast but has a pretty long cooldown (to prevent being used for travel) might do the trick.
Be a marine in the skylights vent on veil. You will get skulk after skulk who try to get to you one by one. You look like candy in there or something.
The other day on docking I got into generator before the gorge did. I killed the gorge. Then I had 5 skulks come in one by one trying to kill me. Then finally three skulks grouped together and killed me.
Pub players follow some very sheep like behavior sometimes. I see myself do it all too often even though I know better. I only realize I did it afterwords.
A railgun can be very good bait. I will get low skill and high skill aliens come at me as if I am a low skill pubber. Pop, there goes a lerk. Pop, there goes a fade. Pop, Pop, pop, there goes three skulks. Boom, the onos got me.
I am by no means a wob level player. I am several leagues below that. Meph is a couple notches above me. Ironhorse and Tussio are a notch above me. I am the kind of mid level pubber hobbes is complaining about here. The power of the railgun in my hands comes not from it being OP, but from what the other player assumes my railgun is capable of. If the players had proper expectations, ambushed, or grouped up my railgun would not be so effective.
Remove all restrictions on when they can charge. When both are charging, they charge at half rate. When both are charging, their maximum charge level is 75% of full charge.
This would make them much smoother to use (they'd always respond to your clicks) and would give you a trade-off to make between burst damage and dps.
Rail and onos are great PUB lifeforms, both do high player damage AND high structure damage. Rail guns get the bonus of extreme range and onos are super fast; both of which allows a singl skilled player to harass/protect a large area. Add to that pretty hefty armor and an uncoordinated enemy is SOL.
I think this is one of the issues that comp players have with rail/onos on PUB servers. Fade/lerks/gorges/SG/etc just arnt well rounded individualy each having a huge gap in ability that relies heavily on teamwork to fill. On a pub you can't "expect" that team work; so a fade will clear a System gate yelling for support but no one will come and a fade can't kill a gate by himself... but that onos who comes across a underprotected gate smashes it.
Was that the thought? If so, it doesn't seem very persuasive. I say railguns are too good, you say don't let them get exos. That doesn't really address my concerns. After all, when someone complains about OP onoses with boneshield (and they certainly are OP), you could similarly just say 'don't let them get onoses'. But that just ignores the problem.
Some other points: (i) if you are rushing exos, you'll still get a2 first, and a2 marines can often hold the lines until exos (particularly on certain maps, like tram); (ii) even if you're not rushing exos, you'll still have the option of getting them in many games, and even when going for exos at a leisurely pace, you'll get there far before aliens get 3 hives. I just don't see the comparison with endgame alien tech as being very illuminating.
Tis not for my own sake I make these appeals. Please, think of the poor lerklings! Won't someone please think of the lerklings!
Yeah, you have a point. But like I said in the part after the bit you quoted, I'm open to some newbie-friendly changes more than others. I just think that increasing the projectile size - turning misses into hits - is not the right sort of way to improve the new player experience. (I'd have to think more about exactly *why* this bugs me so much, but I just keep thinking "No Overwatchification!")
(Although maybe I am being a little hypocritical here. For a long time I've pushed for expanding the lerk bite cone to help newer players (making it easier for them to land bites while swooping around, discouraging the stationary biting that gets them killed). It's kinda similar. But if you *do* want to insist on the increased projectile size for railguns, can we also increase the lerk bite cone?)
I don't know about this. I assume that the railgun is capable of one-shotting my lerk, and plan appropriately. I still die. It's not like I'm running down corridors at well-positioned railguns. Usually they see me off in the far distance and *pop*.
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Last thing: I wholeheartedly agree that discouraging stationary exo play is the way to go.
Totally not in favor of this. All it does is act as a long cd get-out-of-jail-free card (like that stupid blink mechanic in LoL) and does not actually do anything to increase combat mobility.
If it has a super long cooldown it allows you to move during combat exactly once. That's not really mobility.
That's a design flaw with exosuits in general, they're essentially mobile turrets with infinite ammo that can easily sustain themselves in one long corridor with a mac. There's nothing required from them as they're exempt from the duties of other marines so the only thing they need to do is just shoot from the longest distance possible.
No welding, no building, no commanding, no phasing, no getting beaconed, no ammo required, no health required. Gameplay wise they're essentially a ranged alien on the marine team that marines can chestburst from.
It's better to allow a skillfully employed mechanic/ability that's well timed imo.
It keeps it as a get out of jail free card for poorly positioned lower skilled players, or it can enable more risky play by quickly re-positioning in combat when swarmed or when truly needed.
Given the RT biting of most players, not expensive enough.
Honestly though I think the prices are in the right place. I'd like to see it possible for a commander to drop exos, though. Perhaps with two CCs? The alien comm can drop Onos eggs with 9 bio..
It would also have the benefit of denying one-base marine turtles. It happens far too often on pubs, when 5+ minutes are about aliens getting the biomass to contaminate and wait for enough lifeforms to overrun the single marine tech-point.
Sure, marines could concede, but why would they when they've finally bought that suit and are getting some action?
Damage dropoff for railguns based on distance is also a good idea, as it would make lerks and fades much less vulnerable when spiking/fleeing.
Agreed. Maybe to get dual guns you need two CCs. Oh also, for the last part, maybe the beam size drops off with distance too, so it's easier to save yourself when they're in close, but much tougher to snipe mothers.
If the marines can't afford or hold a second tech point, then they usually can't afford to buy exos. Marine base turteling exos are not an issue. At least they're not more of an issue than a turteling JP+HMG.
Afaik they removed the 2CC restriction to emphasize team asymmetry.
But, what's the point of a second marine CC to begin with? The only benefits I see are these three:
* beaconing to that spot - obs is required too, so most probably you have half/full base there
* denying instalose on alien baserush
* denying sneaky hivedrop
All of these are counter-measures, and not related to the tech-tree or marine abilities in any way (maybe the beacon could be considered to).
The marines don't need a second CC to win an average pub game. (for the better or worse)
The previous is more a question of taste, so this is my main argument:
On pubs, JPs die like crazy. No one is welding foot soldiers unfortunately. Exos have a higher chance of being welded, but that tendency is poor too.
You cannot effectively turtle on pubs with JPs. After killing a wave, they will go out and try to be aggressive, and they only die.
I know how to play JPs, dont get me wrong, but I see this with other players, even regular ones. They just get swatted like flies by fades.
I regularly see games (on 8bit, where i usually play), when marines are slowly pushed back to their naturals, and then they lose those too not soon after. The game is most probably lost by that time (comp players would be conceding), but if they get exos they can hold out for a couple more minutes.
While I'm a great advocate of balancing around competitive play, I don't think this would affect comp matches THAT much, but would have a great effect on pub games.
Marines would be forced to get a second tech point if they want to get exos, they can't just sit on their naturals and wait for the pain train.
It doesn't fix the exos problems, it just makes them appear less.
The appearance frequency of Exos aren't mainly due to tech requirements or tech paths, but rather the timings of such. Timings that are due to research times and costs that can be changed.
One comparison is the average timing of Oni compared to JPs (2 minutes earlier) or Exos (3 1/2 to 6 min earlier) .. and a lot can happen in that window of time.
Keeping that in mind, if you were attach both Prototype Lab items and A3/W3 to a 2nd chair and reduced the costs of chairs (as well as build times) to compensate, then you essentially have greatly reduced the strength of turtling marines... and doing so permits you to finally lessen the OP Tier 3 tech of aliens.
This can help remove the "3rd hive was just dropped, GG" scenario .. and it can even help remove the "They've got JPs/Exos/W3 already, GG" as well, since you'd only need to snipe that forward base/chair to knock them back, instead of a full on base rush.
Having a stable early game and a fragile late game should help produce a more engaging round.
In short, imo such a change isn't so much a burden upon marines (esp considering you can easily adjust around it) as it is a change that allows a cascade of improvements to occur.