I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).
I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).
Either you have it or you do not imo.
How about you can drop one of the upgrade buildings for cheap, and then select which relevant upgrade to evolve there, like at the hive? Would also open up some tactical decisions about which upgrade to go for.
I think silence needs a bit of a Nerf. I love using it, but I think it makes the game less fun overall. When you can't use your ears to play, the game feels broken, and even more confusing than it already is.
I'd like to see silence instead reduce the radius of the sounds you make to something very small, but have them play at half volume within that radius. This would retain its utility for getting around the map without detection, and getting within bite distance, but would negate it's effect once you are in close combat.
I feel like half of the benefit of silence right now is that it makes combat so confusing for Marines, and I don't think that makes for very fun gameplay.
I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
How do you feel about silencing the movement sounds but not the attacks? That seems like it would still be workable given these constraints.
I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).
Either you have it or you do not imo.
There was a time when you had to drop one upgrade chamber for every upgrade you want to evolve (one for cara, one for regen) which made much more sense.
I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).
Either you have it or you do not imo.
There was a time when you had to drop one upgrade chamber for every upgrade you want to evolve (one for cara, one for regen) which made much more sense.
It was annoying having to beg the com to research the niche (read anything other than carapace, regen, celerity, adren) upgrades though.
I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).
Either you have it or you do not imo.
There was a time when you had to drop one upgrade chamber for every upgrade you want to evolve (one for cara, one for regen) which made much more sense.
It was annoying having to beg the com to research the niche (read anything other than carapace, regen, celerity, adren) upgrades though.
You are right and maybe that was the reason why it was changed. However, I think this should never be a reason. You must beg a lot during a round of NS2 because comms won't research Umbra, metabolize, don't place PVE, don't research shotungs, skip armor 2 etc. It is a team game and you are very dependant on the other players on your team and also on your comm. And that is a good thing.
Having the possibility to either pay less resources for one upgrade or more resources for 2 or even all 3 upgrades atleast a little more strategic depth.
You are right and maybe that was the reason why it was changed. However, I think this should never be a reason. You must beg a lot during a round of NS2 because comms won't research Umbra, metabolize, don't place PVE, don't research shotungs, skip armor 2 etc. It is a team game and you are very dependant on the other players on your team and also on your comm. And that is a good thing.
Having the possibility to either pay less resources for one upgrade or more resources for 2 or even all 3 upgrades atleast a little more strategic depth.
Yeah but given nothing is ever equal there's always going to be favourites that get researched 90% of the time while neglecting the rest of the content the game has to offer. Giving the field player some choice isn't a bad thing otherwise we might as well get rid of pres marine weapons and have them purely commander dropped like in ns1 days.
I suggest something radical:
- move silence to shade hive and combine it with invisibility;
- restrict some upgrade combinations (like celerity + phantom);
- (optionally) move focus to shift hive
The pont is (for pub games):
cel+silence+invisibility = op
Cel+anyupgrade = ok
silence+invisibility+anyupgradeExceptCel = ok
P.S. I find solutions above quite useful, just trying to add some thoughts.
I suggest something radical:
- move silence to shade hive and combine it with invisibility;
- restrict some upgrade combinations (like celerity + phantom);
- (optionally) move focus to shift hive
The pont is (for pub games):
cel+silence+invisibility = op
Cel+anyupgrade = ok
silence+invisibility+anyupgradeExceptCel = ok
P.S. I find solutions above quite useful, just trying to add some thoughts.
A more elegant way to deal with this would be assigning a point value to each upgrade, and restricting how many points worth of upgrades you can get.
For example, if both silence and celerity are worth 2 points, and skulks can only spend 3 points on upgrades in total, they can't get both silence and celerity.
Different lifeforms could have different amounts of points to spend.
Now give Skulks 4 points, Gorges 6, Lerks and Fade 5, and Onos 6.
(I came up with these numbers on the fly, it's just meant to clarify the concept.)
With a system like this you could even stop restricting players to one upgrade per chamber. (To prevent überskulks on hive 1 you could unlock upgrade slots with biomass or something.)
This would allow for interesting combinations like regen + carapace. But of course, as always, this would take a lot of work to balance properly.
A more elegant way to deal with this would be assigning a point value to each upgrade, and restricting how many points worth of upgrades you can get.
For example, if both silence and celerity are worth 2 points, and skulks can only spend 3 points on upgrades in total, they can't get both silence and celerity.
Different lifeforms could have different amounts of points to spend.
Had the same thought, just couldn't think of the appropriate implementation. System with different points for different upgrades and lifeforms sounds a little too complicated.
We basically would get a RPG system
I think it reduces creativity, and that each upgrade should be balanced to work equally in their own rights. It would be a bandaid solution for an inability to balance those upgrades.
I also don't think silence + celerity was ever OP against anyone except noobs, but balancing a game for noobs is sheer stupidity (which is also why I think NS2 has been bad for the past year).
Now give Skulks 4 points, Gorges 6, Lerks and Fade 5, and Onos 6.
(I came up with these numbers on the fly, it's just meant to clarify the concept.)
With a system like this you could even stop restricting players to one upgrade per chamber. (To prevent überskulks on hive 1 you could unlock upgrade slots with biomass or something.)
This would allow for interesting combinations like regen + carapace. But of course, as always, this would take a lot of work to balance properly.
I would take regen and carapace over celerity or silence anytime. This would be so much fun. Ooh, what if I also had the healing factor from vampirism. I can't wait for my oober health skulk.
Ssh. Don't let people know about my uber skulk. Let all the rookies think they are cool with silence, celerity, and focus. I'll stick to my maximum health build. It suits my playstyle.
edit: Great, you ended my perfect count of 888 awesomes.
@coolitic do you disagree that such a system would be more elegant or do you think such a system would simply be a bad idea?
the idea is awesome, i would love something like that. it would make it much easier for the devs to balance to upgrades...
but the general public will only be confused, since it adds another layer of complexity that is not inherently logical (gameplay-wise)
Silence works fine. It gives the marines an incentive to scan areas. The chambers have always been health/armor, movement/speed, sensory. It is an even balance. Shift is a well rounded upgrade chamber and the least likely to be countered effectively by the marines which is why it is take first generally. Crag leave you slow and reduces you to a more defensive mindset making you unable to close effectively with speed or silence while cloaking is countered with observatory and scans and focus is underpowered I believe. It should be 2 bite marines on armor 1 if it isn't already.
Silence works fine. It gives the marines an incentive to scan areas.
Scan is not a counter to silence. It is completely inadequate and far too expensive. The closest to a counter we have, is essentially armor 2 and medpacks, but that opens a whole other can of worms.
Silence works fine. It gives the marines an incentive to scan areas.
Scan is not a counter to silence. It is completely inadequate and far too expensive. The closest to a counter we have, is essentially armor 2 and medpacks, but that opens a whole other can of worms.
The "real counter" of silence is the marine's LOS (line of sight) map detection which can be fully utilized by "scanning" (rapid camera turns) all directions while moving. Still silence is very powerful because it cancels out one of the main feedback channels (sound) marines normally use to detect the position of incoming aliens.
Moving Silence back to Shade is also more about equalizing the popularity of the hive types than really the efficiency of the upgrade.
I want to see silence get removed, just so i can witness the astronomical amounts of complaints you'd get from alien players, then watch it get patched back in a week later. lol
I want to see silence get removed, just so i can witness the astronomical amounts of complaints you'd get from alien players, then watch it get patched back in a week later. lol
I think silence needs a bit of a Nerf. I love using it, but I think it makes the game less fun overall. When you can't use your ears to play, the game feels broken, and even more confusing than it already is.
I'd like to see silence instead reduce the radius of the sounds you make to something very small, but have them play at half volume within that radius. This would retain its utility for getting around the map without detection, and getting within bite distance, but would negate it's effect once you are in close combat.
I feel like half of the benefit of silence right now is that it makes combat so confusing for Marines, and I don't think that makes for very fun gameplay.
I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
How do you feel about silencing the movement sounds but not the attacks? That seems like it would still be workable given these constraints.
Repeating this for emphasis. Silence currently does two things: 1) makes it easier to get within bite range. 2) creates confusion in combat.
Confusion in combat is bad for the feel of the game, and disproportionately hurts new players without adding anything interesting for vets. It makes the game feel less crisp.
Silence should be changed to only mute movement sounds, and play attack sounds normally.
I think silence needs a bit of a Nerf. I love using it, but I think it makes the game less fun overall. When you can't use your ears to play, the game feels broken, and even more confusing than it already is.
I'd like to see silence instead reduce the radius of the sounds you make to something very small, but have them play at half volume within that radius. This would retain its utility for getting around the map without detection, and getting within bite distance, but would negate it's effect once you are in close combat.
I feel like half of the benefit of silence right now is that it makes combat so confusing for Marines, and I don't think that makes for very fun gameplay.
I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...
How do you feel about silencing the movement sounds but not the attacks? That seems like it would still be workable given these constraints.
Repeating this for emphasis. Silence currently does two things: 1) makes it easier to get within bite range. 2) creates confusion in combat.
Confusion in combat is bad for the feel of the game, and disproportionately hurts new players without adding anything interesting for vets. It makes the game feel less crisp.
Silence should be changed to only mute movement sounds, and play attack sounds normally.
Ghoul's mod does this. It's a lot better than vanilla. Still very powerful, but not as broken as vanilla.
Comments
Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).
Either you have it or you do not imo.
2cough has a way with words.
How about you can drop one of the upgrade buildings for cheap, and then select which relevant upgrade to evolve there, like at the hive? Would also open up some tactical decisions about which upgrade to go for.
How do you feel about silencing the movement sounds but not the attacks? That seems like it would still be workable given these constraints.
There was a time when you had to drop one upgrade chamber for every upgrade you want to evolve (one for cara, one for regen) which made much more sense.
It was annoying having to beg the com to research the niche (read anything other than carapace, regen, celerity, adren) upgrades though.
You are right and maybe that was the reason why it was changed. However, I think this should never be a reason. You must beg a lot during a round of NS2 because comms won't research Umbra, metabolize, don't place PVE, don't research shotungs, skip armor 2 etc. It is a team game and you are very dependant on the other players on your team and also on your comm. And that is a good thing.
Having the possibility to either pay less resources for one upgrade or more resources for 2 or even all 3 upgrades atleast a little more strategic depth.
Yeah but given nothing is ever equal there's always going to be favourites that get researched 90% of the time while neglecting the rest of the content the game has to offer. Giving the field player some choice isn't a bad thing otherwise we might as well get rid of pres marine weapons and have them purely commander dropped like in ns1 days.
- move silence to shade hive and combine it with invisibility;
- restrict some upgrade combinations (like celerity + phantom);
- (optionally) move focus to shift hive
The pont is (for pub games):
cel+silence+invisibility = op
Cel+anyupgrade = ok
silence+invisibility+anyupgradeExceptCel = ok
P.S. I find solutions above quite useful, just trying to add some thoughts.
A more elegant way to deal with this would be assigning a point value to each upgrade, and restricting how many points worth of upgrades you can get.
For example, if both silence and celerity are worth 2 points, and skulks can only spend 3 points on upgrades in total, they can't get both silence and celerity.
Different lifeforms could have different amounts of points to spend.
edit: For example:
- 3 Points: Silence
- 2 Points: Celerity, Aura
- 1 Point: Adrenaline, Vampirism, Focus, Crush, Carapace, Regen
Now give Skulks 4 points, Gorges 6, Lerks and Fade 5, and Onos 6.
(I came up with these numbers on the fly, it's just meant to clarify the concept.)
With a system like this you could even stop restricting players to one upgrade per chamber. (To prevent überskulks on hive 1 you could unlock upgrade slots with biomass or something.)
This would allow for interesting combinations like regen + carapace. But of course, as always, this would take a lot of work to balance properly.
Had the same thought, just couldn't think of the appropriate implementation. System with different points for different upgrades and lifeforms sounds a little too complicated.
We basically would get a RPG system
I also don't think silence + celerity was ever OP against anyone except noobs, but balancing a game for noobs is sheer stupidity (which is also why I think NS2 has been bad for the past year).
I would take regen and carapace over celerity or silence anytime. This would be so much fun. Ooh, what if I also had the healing factor from vampirism. I can't wait for my oober health skulk.
Like @Nordic said you would be able to go cara, regen and vamprism that way (if you have 3 hives)
It would also give you another angle to balance things - a bunch of easily adjustable numerical values.
Which could easily prevent über health skulks if they turn out to be op :P
edit: Great, you ended my perfect count of 888 awesomes.
the idea is awesome, i would love something like that. it would make it much easier for the devs to balance to upgrades...
but the general public will only be confused, since it adds another layer of complexity that is not inherently logical (gameplay-wise)
Scan is not a counter to silence. It is completely inadequate and far too expensive. The closest to a counter we have, is essentially armor 2 and medpacks, but that opens a whole other can of worms.
The "real counter" of silence is the marine's LOS (line of sight) map detection which can be fully utilized by "scanning" (rapid camera turns) all directions while moving. Still silence is very powerful because it cancels out one of the main feedback channels (sound) marines normally use to detect the position of incoming aliens.
Moving Silence back to Shade is also more about equalizing the popularity of the hive types than really the efficiency of the upgrade.
I think Keats is not fun for either team and should be removed completely.
Aha you also feed on salt and tears I see
Repeating this for emphasis. Silence currently does two things: 1) makes it easier to get within bite range. 2) creates confusion in combat.
Confusion in combat is bad for the feel of the game, and disproportionately hurts new players without adding anything interesting for vets. It makes the game feel less crisp.
Silence should be changed to only mute movement sounds, and play attack sounds normally.
Ghoul's mod does this. It's a lot better than vanilla. Still very powerful, but not as broken as vanilla.