kingkumacancels Work: distracted by Dwarf FortressJoin Date: 2015-09-25Member: 208137Members
Of course, you could do what I do, build on the GUN island, have 12 solar panels on land, a bioreactor, and two thermals. I've got enough to recharge my ion - fueled cyclops, a battery charger, a fabricator, a radio, a medkit fabricator (don't kill me plz), a moonpool, a scanner room, and FOUR water filtration machines.
Okay, so, time for some testing.
NOTE: the balance adjustment seems to be bugged. The panel shows 75 power, but still contains 150 as before. The 75 only shows on solar panel mouseover, and at full power drain, when the base drops from "1/150" to "0/75". This only happens if no power is coming in at all (Night).
All locations tested with a single foundation at the exact depth, one solar panel, and one multipurpose room. "Noon" is engaged via the 'day' console command from 0 charge.
Current solar stats:
- Surface: 90% at noon (wtf is 100% then?). 67s for full 150/150 power (2.2/s)
-10m down, 89% at noon. 73s to charge (2/s)
-50m down, one of my favorite base locations on the shallows/grassy-plateau border. 75%, 80s charge. (~1.8/s) So far looking good.
We have to go deeper...
-100m down, 52%, 120s charge (1.25/s). Timing is decreasing pretty linearly with percent, so not bothering to time from here on.
-150m down, 25%, edge of the mushroom forest
-175m down, 14%
-200m down, 4%. Not good for much other than o2 production at this point. And only because oxygen production doesn't actually consume any power.
-210,220,230,240 drop off at roughly 1%, with 240m producing 0% power.
Testing those conveniently put me at pod 12 with a thermal geyser.
-Thermal plant (250 cap): 58c (best I could manage at the geyser). Looks to be a bit less than 1 power per second. 100 power in 117 seconds.
-Bioreactor (500 cap): Very similar to the thermal. 100 power in 120 seconds.
Both of these about 0.8/s.
-Nuclear Reactor (2500 cap): 100 power in 25 seconds. Pretty solidly 4/s.
Bases are all still in place, so if anyone wants something re-tested or confirmed just let me know.
but the nuclear and thermal reactors now at this point in time are not worth building
Er, wut? Did they nerf thermals big time? How are bioreactors king? The only downside to thermals is needing to be near a vent or using power relays, but other than that... a thermal reactor is the best one available. At the current rates it takes 12 bioreactors to match the output of a single thermal reactor in the right spot and the thermal reactor requires no maintenance.
I agree with the 'no maintenence' part, but not the '12 bioreactors to match the output' part.
1 bioreactor = 500 capacity = 50/minute (with the doubled)
1 thermal = 250 capacity = 50/minute (at a high heat area... and why would you want to build them anywhere else?)
Output is definitely higher. Capacity is nowhere *near* 12 bioreactors.
Unless I am wrong about how much capacity a thermal has; I haven't built one in quite a while. They may have upped it from where it was.
Oh dang, even at 25 a minutes its higher than the last time I used one. Bioreactors have received some major buffs then since the last time I used them! Even still, I'd say the lack of maintenance is worth it, but bioreactor having an equal rate definitely puts it in contention. Thanks for getting me up to speed.
Okay, further testing on stable. The changes amount to "unchanged" from 0m down to 100m, then only about a 10-15% increase in falloff below that. That doesn't sound like
greatly increased light falloff per depth
to me, so I wonder if we'll be seeing further tweaking.
For my first base, I usually use solar or a combo of solar and thermal. My second base, which I build in the ILZ? Thermal exclusively.
If you have 4000 power from just solar, you can run two WFMs even if you start producing with them at night. But I build my first base a little funny-- I always put my panels on a platform above the water.
The solar panel output falloff is now based on a curve we define, rather than scaling linearly. Currently it's an s curve with a small boost in output between 0m and 100m, and a reduction in output between 100 and 250m. We'll continue to adjust the curve, perhaps further reducing output from 100m to 250m, depending on feedback.
The most significant change yesterday to power was doubling the output of the bio reactor and doubling the energy content of bio reactor fuel, but I think this will need further refinement, and probably a balance pass on the energy content of each type of fuel.
Quick summary of solar and bio reactor power output:
Solar panel produces >2 power per second at 0m, with an increased penalty between 100-250m.
Bio reactor outputs at 0.8 power per second.
The solar panel output falloff is now based on a curve we define, rather than scaling linearly. Currently it's an s curve with a small boost in output between 0m and 100m, and a reduction in output between 100 and 250m. We'll continue to adjust the curve, perhaps further reducing output from 100m to 250m, depending on feedback.
The most significant change yesterday to power was doubling the output of the bio reactor and doubling the energy content of bio reactor fuel, but I think this will need further refinement, and probably a balance pass on the energy content of each type of fuel.
Quick summary of solar and bio reactor power output:
Solar panel is still 1.25 power per second at 0m, with an increased penalty between 100-250m.
Bio reactor outputs at 0.8 power per second.
Will there be any changes to thermal or nuclear reactors?
What is the philosophy behind adjusting the different reactors abilities? They had a curve of early - mid- late kinda progression before, but not so much now. What's driving the changes?
What is the philosophy behind adjusting the different reactors abilities? They had a curve of early - mid- late kinda progression before, but not so much now. What's driving the changes?
Nuclear reactors are the least used reactor as the bio reactor is way easy to have you only have to build a grow bed grow some melons enjoy an endless supply of energy
For thermal reactors it is still viable but only in heat areas
What is the philosophy behind adjusting the different reactors abilities? They had a curve of early - mid- late kinda progression before, but not so much now. What's driving the changes?
Nuclear reactors are the least used reactor as the bio reactor is way easy to have you only have to build a grow bed grow some melons enjoy an endless supply of energy
For thermal reactors it is still viable but only in heat areas
Definitely for use, but for design? What role does the bioreactor fill? Right now it seems like there is no real niche for it, its just a high ability reactor that is available early. I guess its just increasing the jump between early and late, but with an increased energy per food and increased rate it really doesn't have any downsides unless you are running an absurd number of water filtration units as anything pulling energy will be done long before the reactor needs to be filled.
Not that I'm complaining but there are some downsides to the others (nighttime for solar, location for thermal, fuel being in dangerous areas for nuclear) but with the changes there really isn't one for bio if the maintenance aspect is being relegated to a minor role. If its meant to be the king of reactors, shouldn't the frags be moved to deeper and more dangerous wrecks?
Just looking at the balance and progression with power sources. I certainly wouldn't complain and would probably move everything to bio in my own games, but it nullifies all the work into making others if its too good, no?
Solar panel is still 1.25 power per second at 0m, with an increased penalty between 100-250m.
Currently in 55196, I am getting that at 100m down, with 2+/sec at the surface at noon. (just tested again, 45 seconds for 100 power). Is charge maybe defined as a percentage of the total capacity? Then the fact that solar still has 150 rather than 75 might be making it twice as good as it should be.
If its meant to be the king of reactors, shouldn't the frags be moved to deeper and more dangerous wrecks?
This started happening when Solar manufacturing got more expensive. People need something to power the bases. Since Solar needed more of the needed resources, that bases or vehicles require. I basically got forced into using Bio Reactors. If Bio Reactors aren't in early game. The tedium of trying to make your base habitable, and powering it would be hard. I'd be stuck with a single unpowered MPR for a while. While I try to max out the Cyclops and Prawn suit. In order to get use out of the Lost River. Bases would be relegated to mid game. While the Cyclops would be a early game base.
I never use bioreactors because their power output makes it impossible to use a water filtration machine and they take up an entire room. A nuclear takes up a room and it will run everything forever without issues, especially if you can get supplemental power from a single solar or thermal plant. In the Lost River I usually go Thermal if I put up a base there - or a combination thermal/nuclear (which is overkill - but why not?).
I never use bioreactors because their power output makes it impossible to use a water filtration machine and they take up an entire room. A nuclear takes up a room and it will run everything forever without issues, especially if you can get supplemental power from a single solar or thermal plant. In the Lost River I usually go Thermal if I put up a base there - or a combination thermal/nuclear (which is overkill - but why not?).
Bioreactors have apparently gotten some love lately, and although I've yet to test them out, I've heard good things. (We'll see.) I prefer power sources I can turn on and forget about, so I basically stick to solar and thermal. Months ago, I once built a nuclear reactor, but it became clear to me that I was going to have to spend considerable time disposing of and crafting new fuel rods-- has this changed?
A bioreactor has the same power generation rate as a thermal plant, with twice the capacity, currently. It's still not gonna run a water filter on its own, but as long as you have space, stacking multipurpose rooms is cheap.
I'll have to try it again. I'd like it if using it as auxiliary power at night actually works now. If it's as good as a thermal plant now, then they've definitely given it an upgrade, which is a Good Thing! A thermal plant in the Jellyshroom caves (at 80c) will power a Water Filtration Plant.
Wow. Doubling bioreactor output *and* doubling the energy given by things? As much as I love bioreactors, even I have to wonder why we're being spoiled so much on them? Balance-wise, that makes them far and away the best now, I think.
We're going to continue adjusting it. I think the power output is about right (even on the low side), but the energy capacity of the fuel is perhaps too high.
We're going to continue adjusting it. I think the power output is about right (even on the low side), but the energy capacity of the fuel is perhaps too high.
I feel that yes, they need to be sped up some (or rather, either close to where they are or a smidge faster). However, the fuel is something that I feel should be kept where it was before, or slightly lower (although not *too* much lower; I don't want them to end up with everything put in only getting, say, 100 fuel out of it).
Don't get me wrong: I still will probably use bioreactors more than anything else (as mentioned above, they're useful in all areas, and that's a big deal) but even *I* don't want them to suddenly be the one and only reasonable option, when thermal and nuclear are both still out there, are late game creations, and I feel *should* have a good, solid place. I'd want thermal to at least be competitive if one has the heated area, and while I don't want nuclear to be a *necessity*, I *do* want to feel like as a single power source (as opposed to multiple) it's superior. As it is now, the cost per creation versus the feeding of a bioreactor, I don't feel is remotely worth it (and may never, mostly because I hate having to throw things out like empty rods).
We're going to continue adjusting it. I think the power output is about right (even on the low side), but the energy capacity of the fuel is perhaps too high.
I feel that yes, they need to be sped up some (or rather, either close to where they are or a smidge faster). However, the fuel is something that I feel should be kept where it was before, or slightly lower (although not *too* much lower; I don't want them to end up with everything put in only getting, say, 100 fuel out of it).
Don't get me wrong: I still will probably use bioreactors more than anything else (as mentioned above, they're useful in all areas, and that's a big deal) but even *I* don't want them to suddenly be the one and only reasonable option, when thermal and nuclear are both still out there, are late game creations, and I feel *should* have a good, solid place. I'd want thermal to at least be competitive if one has the heated area, and while I don't want nuclear to be a *necessity*, I *do* want to feel like as a single power source (as opposed to multiple) it's superior. As it is now, the cost per creation versus the feeding of a bioreactor, I don't feel is remotely worth it (and may never, mostly because I hate having to throw things out like empty rods).
I agree the nuclear and thermal reactors are way behind now after the bio reactor buff the only thing i want for nuclear reactors is make the recipe give multiple rods
As for thermal not sure but im sure there're some good ideas for it
We're going to continue adjusting it. I think the power output is about right (even on the low side), but the energy capacity of the fuel is perhaps too high.
I feel that yes, they need to be sped up some (or rather, either close to where they are or a smidge faster). However, the fuel is something that I feel should be kept where it was before, or slightly lower (although not *too* much lower; I don't want them to end up with everything put in only getting, say, 100 fuel out of it).
Don't get me wrong: I still will probably use bioreactors more than anything else (as mentioned above, they're useful in all areas, and that's a big deal) but even *I* don't want them to suddenly be the one and only reasonable option, when thermal and nuclear are both still out there, are late game creations, and I feel *should* have a good, solid place. I'd want thermal to at least be competitive if one has the heated area, and while I don't want nuclear to be a *necessity*, I *do* want to feel like as a single power source (as opposed to multiple) it's superior. As it is now, the cost per creation versus the feeding of a bioreactor, I don't feel is remotely worth it (and may never, mostly because I hate having to throw things out like empty rods).
But that's what happens naturally. Think of the Bio Reactor as Steam. And the other stuff as Origin, Ubisoft etc. People find the best option. Than don't go near anything else. Even when it's good.
I agree the nuclear and thermal reactors are way behind now after the bio reactor buff the only thing i want for nuclear reactors is make the recipe give multiple rods
As for thermal not sure but im sure there're some good ideas for it
There is. But since some people don't like making bases in ILZ etc. It has less options. I always use Thermal plants for my ILZ base. I make usually 20 to power it fairly easy.
The more I look at it the more sense this makes. Thermals need a decent buff to the rate they produce, but that should be sufficient to even it out. A bioreactor with a full stock of reginalds only needs to be fed once every 2 hours or so of game time while running 2 wfm so the no-maintenance advantage of thermals isn't really that good of an advantage.
Thermals are a late game power source so should have a distinct advantage over bioreactors, which can be found and produced within 500m of your lifepod. Power buff plus no mainenance should be worth it, provided it doesn't overpower nuclear.
Nuclear is fine, if I'm reading this right... 4 rods = 40,000 energy with a storage capacity of 2,500. So I only need to refill it once every 4.5 hours if I'm running 2 wfm constantly. Yeah, that's worth a few trips to find the uraninite. 16 rods should last a full game. For me that's a single expedition's worth. I'm going to have to try nuclear on the next run.
If you explore in the order of the game's ping directions, thermal is actually found *after* nuclear parts. So I'm suspecting thermal is intended to be a big boost over bioreactors, and potentially on par with nuclear or even superior in some ways. Considering it's feeding-free, and while difficult to find a good placement, gives a *lot* of energy, I think they're a fantastic option. The only reason I hesitate at the speed boost is that you can place more than one around a vent and channel the power, unlike bioreactors which are one per room.
Honestly, the more I work with the big base right now, the more I sweat to keep my energy running and my bioreactors fed. Which I think feels just right; my power consumption is almost keeping up, but it's at the cost of having to keep my bioreactors stuffed with fish/potatoes/melons.
Making the scanner room early game, *and* giving it more importance, is a big encouragement to make a base that actually eats energy, making feeding them *way* more important. Before, I didn't need to start doing much to 'feed' a base until I got my first water filtration.
Having basic life support be a slow drain on a base might not be a bad plan. Something that even your average solar could keep up with, but something that would still constantly be using power. Something like 1 tick every 30 seconds?
Comments
And yet I nearly die of thirst every time I play, and resort to eating creepvine samples to stay alive. Gotta pack more water.
NOTE: the balance adjustment seems to be bugged. The panel shows 75 power, but still contains 150 as before. The 75 only shows on solar panel mouseover, and at full power drain, when the base drops from "1/150" to "0/75". This only happens if no power is coming in at all (Night).
All locations tested with a single foundation at the exact depth, one solar panel, and one multipurpose room. "Noon" is engaged via the 'day' console command from 0 charge.
Current solar stats:
- Surface: 90% at noon (wtf is 100% then?). 67s for full 150/150 power (2.2/s)
-10m down, 89% at noon. 73s to charge (2/s)
-50m down, one of my favorite base locations on the shallows/grassy-plateau border. 75%, 80s charge. (~1.8/s) So far looking good.
We have to go deeper...
-100m down, 52%, 120s charge (1.25/s). Timing is decreasing pretty linearly with percent, so not bothering to time from here on.
-150m down, 25%, edge of the mushroom forest
-175m down, 14%
-200m down, 4%. Not good for much other than o2 production at this point. And only because oxygen production doesn't actually consume any power.
-210,220,230,240 drop off at roughly 1%, with 240m producing 0% power.
Testing those conveniently put me at pod 12 with a thermal geyser.
-Thermal plant (250 cap): 58c (best I could manage at the geyser). Looks to be a bit less than 1 power per second. 100 power in 117 seconds.
-Bioreactor (500 cap): Very similar to the thermal. 100 power in 120 seconds.
Both of these about 0.8/s.
-Nuclear Reactor (2500 cap): 100 power in 25 seconds. Pretty solidly 4/s.
Bases are all still in place, so if anyone wants something re-tested or confirmed just let me know.
Oh dang, even at 25 a minutes its higher than the last time I used one. Bioreactors have received some major buffs then since the last time I used them! Even still, I'd say the lack of maintenance is worth it, but bioreactor having an equal rate definitely puts it in contention. Thanks for getting me up to speed.
For comparison, I just had a friend test in stable. At 200m, he's getting 17%.
If you have 4000 power from just solar, you can run two WFMs even if you start producing with them at night. But I build my first base a little funny-- I always put my panels on a platform above the water.
The most significant change yesterday to power was doubling the output of the bio reactor and doubling the energy content of bio reactor fuel, but I think this will need further refinement, and probably a balance pass on the energy content of each type of fuel.
Quick summary of solar and bio reactor power output:
Solar panel produces >2 power per second at 0m, with an increased penalty between 100-250m.
Bio reactor outputs at 0.8 power per second.
Edit: Corrected solar panel power value.
Will there be any changes to thermal or nuclear reactors?
Nuclear reactors are the least used reactor as the bio reactor is way easy to have you only have to build a grow bed grow some melons enjoy an endless supply of energy
For thermal reactors it is still viable but only in heat areas
Definitely for use, but for design? What role does the bioreactor fill? Right now it seems like there is no real niche for it, its just a high ability reactor that is available early. I guess its just increasing the jump between early and late, but with an increased energy per food and increased rate it really doesn't have any downsides unless you are running an absurd number of water filtration units as anything pulling energy will be done long before the reactor needs to be filled.
Not that I'm complaining but there are some downsides to the others (nighttime for solar, location for thermal, fuel being in dangerous areas for nuclear) but with the changes there really isn't one for bio if the maintenance aspect is being relegated to a minor role. If its meant to be the king of reactors, shouldn't the frags be moved to deeper and more dangerous wrecks?
Just looking at the balance and progression with power sources. I certainly wouldn't complain and would probably move everything to bio in my own games, but it nullifies all the work into making others if its too good, no?
This started happening when Solar manufacturing got more expensive. People need something to power the bases. Since Solar needed more of the needed resources, that bases or vehicles require. I basically got forced into using Bio Reactors. If Bio Reactors aren't in early game. The tedium of trying to make your base habitable, and powering it would be hard. I'd be stuck with a single unpowered MPR for a while. While I try to max out the Cyclops and Prawn suit. In order to get use out of the Lost River. Bases would be relegated to mid game. While the Cyclops would be a early game base.
Bioreactors have apparently gotten some love lately, and although I've yet to test them out, I've heard good things. (We'll see.) I prefer power sources I can turn on and forget about, so I basically stick to solar and thermal. Months ago, I once built a nuclear reactor, but it became clear to me that I was going to have to spend considerable time disposing of and crafting new fuel rods-- has this changed?
I feel that yes, they need to be sped up some (or rather, either close to where they are or a smidge faster). However, the fuel is something that I feel should be kept where it was before, or slightly lower (although not *too* much lower; I don't want them to end up with everything put in only getting, say, 100 fuel out of it).
Don't get me wrong: I still will probably use bioreactors more than anything else (as mentioned above, they're useful in all areas, and that's a big deal) but even *I* don't want them to suddenly be the one and only reasonable option, when thermal and nuclear are both still out there, are late game creations, and I feel *should* have a good, solid place. I'd want thermal to at least be competitive if one has the heated area, and while I don't want nuclear to be a *necessity*, I *do* want to feel like as a single power source (as opposed to multiple) it's superior. As it is now, the cost per creation versus the feeding of a bioreactor, I don't feel is remotely worth it (and may never, mostly because I hate having to throw things out like empty rods).
I agree the nuclear and thermal reactors are way behind now after the bio reactor buff the only thing i want for nuclear reactors is make the recipe give multiple rods
As for thermal not sure but im sure there're some good ideas for it
But that's what happens naturally. Think of the Bio Reactor as Steam. And the other stuff as Origin, Ubisoft etc. People find the best option. Than don't go near anything else. Even when it's good.
There is. But since some people don't like making bases in ILZ etc. It has less options. I always use Thermal plants for my ILZ base. I make usually 20 to power it fairly easy.
Thermals are a late game power source so should have a distinct advantage over bioreactors, which can be found and produced within 500m of your lifepod. Power buff plus no mainenance should be worth it, provided it doesn't overpower nuclear.
Nuclear is fine, if I'm reading this right... 4 rods = 40,000 energy with a storage capacity of 2,500. So I only need to refill it once every 4.5 hours if I'm running 2 wfm constantly. Yeah, that's worth a few trips to find the uraninite. 16 rods should last a full game. For me that's a single expedition's worth. I'm going to have to try nuclear on the next run.
Honestly, the more I work with the big base right now, the more I sweat to keep my energy running and my bioreactors fed. Which I think feels just right; my power consumption is almost keeping up, but it's at the cost of having to keep my bioreactors stuffed with fish/potatoes/melons.
Making the scanner room early game, *and* giving it more importance, is a big encouragement to make a base that actually eats energy, making feeding them *way* more important. Before, I didn't need to start doing much to 'feed' a base until I got my first water filtration.
Having basic life support be a slow drain on a base might not be a bad plan. Something that even your average solar could keep up with, but something that would still constantly be using power. Something like 1 tick every 30 seconds?
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? How? Magnetite's easy to find, aerogel's easy enough to make, and a surfeit of fragments can be found near Lifepod 19.