MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Used the railgun yesterday. It is still pretty good against skulks and lerks. Fades are a bit tougher. You will most likely never kill them with a railgun if you are not pushing a hive
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited January 2018
Railgun is still very strong and dangerous for experienced players... if in a push is even one railgun exos, he can still insta-kill every single lifeform.....
DID YOU KNOW THAT: railgun exos instakill all skulks, lifeforms, and alien structures (including hives) - simultaneously - as soon as a single rail is fired, even if it's fired directly at the marine commander's face (or anywhere else).
Hmmm I know experience is subjective but found it much harder to even one shot anything now, could of we compromised in keeping dual charging railguns but lowering the burst damage?
Raising the pres, reducing the base damage, total damage AND removing dual charge doesn't sound like incremental balance changes, more like sudden shifts, take the flamethrower changes for example...
@Nordic is it a possibility to produce a chart that indicates use of railgun exo pre and post update 320?
Sorry Yojimbo. It may be possible but I would have to figure out how to do it myself before I told you if it was even possible.
The fact is that the railgun was too strong in the hands of players of sufficient skill. It was an infinite range shotgun that could shoot through structures. The solution to fight it was to keep throwing skulks at it until you got onos because a sufficiently skilled railgun was assured death for a lerk and was very dangerous for a fade. One of the early suggestions people brought up in the UWE Discord was to add damage fall off. As I understand it, this is difficult to implement and difficult to communicate to players. I am often one of the first to say that the game should not be balanced solely from the top down, but this balance change was necessary because of the top skilled players. In a way, think of this is balance from the top down. As I see it, less railguns is a generally positive thing.
If you read the patch notes you will see that these are probably temporary changes until something better is found.
Exosuits – Based on resounding community feedback, these are temporary interim changes to slightly nerf Exos, to allow us time to redesign them entirely through proper testing in following updates.
You will see in that statement "resounding community feedback." If you feel underrepresented then you can participate in the UWE's Discord channel. There was more than a significant amount of feedback about railguns needing nerfed there. Add your voice to the conversation to balance out the opinions you disagree with.
One of the early suggestions people brought up in the UWE Discord was to add damage fall off. As I understand it, this is difficult to implement and difficult to communicate to players.
Damage falloff was originally in the alpha or beta for the shotgun, and possibly other ranged weapons. The game still has support for it and it would be easy to add. Some mods already have it.
of course it's for preventing uninstalls from new players who have no idea what they are doing, the end goal being even when playing against much higher tier players.
when you have no skill segregation of any kind, you try to catter to the one who arent invested yet, the others will probably stay anyway.
That explains the extreme nerfs all at once, steamchart panic attack, but not why removing dual charging when you can instead just nerf the damage which is the same?
Now, dear devs have you at all considered the option of bringing back the claw for rail exo and removing the shoot cooldown.
Because sorry on top of being EVEN CLUNKIER, it makes about as much sense as wanting to remove dual shooting when you could instead just nerf the damage to have dual exos which can't dual shoot but with each gun binded as if they could, make up your mind?
Regarding play-testing, and the linux issues, I've applied several times for linux playtesting using the official google form, but got no reply whatsoever. It's kind of weird that us players have to make effort and chase down the opportunity to help you guys improve the game.
@trixX if you feel like devs are making poor decisions on balance, as a playtester you can influence those decisions into directions you think are right. If you can back up your reasoning I doubt your voice will be unheared. Playtesters are needed / wanted
I clearly can understand his frustration regarding this point.
Perhaps you wouldn't if you knew more about how the applications are filled out.
We are somewhat selective in deciding who to bring on board, as its a unique role, and we need people who demonstrate crazy attention to detail, who work well with a team, and demonstrate a high degree of effort.
I've never publicly shown an application result, however since it's currently being framed in this thread that there are willing persons that we are unwilling to have on board, here is an example of an applicant who will probably recognize it:
What do you think makes you a good candidate for being an NS2 Playtester?
"critical, outside-the-box thinker" Do you have any special skills that could help NS2's future development?
"can roll spliffs" Any other comments you would like to make?
"I like turtles"
Other re-applications from this same individual included such things as
"can cook minute rice in 58 sec"
Or
"( . Y . )"
And no, these are not taken out of context or edited, that is the entirety of the responses.
Conversely, here is just one response to a single question from an applicant who I have accepted today:
I've played NS 1 and NS 2 on/off over last 14 years. After losing interest in CS after 1.6 I started to play NS 1 with the MrMen and Yo clans. I think I'm still on the old YO NSL clan team roster. It was there I met Obraxis and, as I was reminded today, met him in person at a Lan Party many, many, years ago. So NS has been a big part of my gaming life. Now, slightly longer in tooth, I'd like to use some of my free time to give something back to the community. Time that I though could be better spent engaging in a new challenge. Why not mix the game I spent most of my evening playing into that challenge.
I know how little things can ruin a users experience, not expecting anything fancy. If by my running into a wall 200 times proves you cannot glitch through, I'd view it as time well spent.
I've not taken part in play testing before, but I'm a quick learner, can follow instruction (even if that is to be independent and "find things to break) and work well as part of a distributed / spit team.
Perhaps we can be better at sending out rejection letters, but with low effort or un-serious applications, I am not convinced it's worth our effort if it was not worth theirs.
Does UWE send our rejection letters? I applied twice with about 14 months between each application. My first one was not as detailed as my second one. I received no communication from my first application. UWE has often done poorly at communication. Would a simple generic rejection letter be so much? The rejection letter could be the same for each rejection and maybe even have generic advise on how to make a good application.
Here's my opinion about the rail changes. (Ultimately this is based on my own experiences and is subjective to an extent, but hopefully, it gives some perspective.)
1. Was rail damage and/or burst damage frustrating?
The quick answer is yes. Being able to one shot skulks and occasionally lerks from a gameplay perspective can be a frustrating mechanic in this game. However, I would also beg you to consider what else is frustrating about this game. Is losing a lerk or a fade instantly to a shotgun frustrating? Yes. Is being chased down as an onos by a single or two jetpackers and being killed frustrating? Yes. Is losing a jetpacker to a lucky skulk using focus and leap frustrating? Yes. The common thread between these things is that they can be equally frustrating.
However, they can be equally gratifying. How would you feel if you were the marine who killed that lerk, fade, or onos? How would you feel as that skulk who got that pesky jetpacker? You'd feel as if you would have done something significant and meaningful to help your team. (This is why I understand and agree with the pres changes. Exos did not feel significant to kill in some, NOT ALL, games as they would reappear in mass.)
Arguably these mechanics are both satisfying and irritating. Now, one might say, but something can be largely unsatisfying to a good portion of individuals. Yes, that can be the case. For instance, god mode. To most individuals, this would be an entirely unsatisfying mechanic to have in a competitive game as there's no competition. The godmoder can't be beaten and is literally unstoppable. Ultimately, more people find it unsatisfying that godmode exists than do the people who find it satisfying. As such, this would indicate that godmode shouldn't be a part of the general competitive shooter gameplay environment.
This example of a 'godmode' like state could be associated to that the flamethrower bug. To the players on the receiving end, it felt as if they were being dismantled and were unable to do anything. To the executors, at first it felt fun, but it eventually became boring and seemed unfair.
The point being, I did not see this 'godmode' like state before the nerf to railguns and I certainly do not see it post nerf. Yes, I experienced the Guassian Railgunners quite often. Yes, I was frustrated. However, was I frustrated by the railgunner because railguns were unbalanced? No. Was I frustrated by the lack of strategy being displayed by the players facing the railguns? Absolutely.
2. Were railguns overpowered or unbalanced?
No, I personally do not believe railguns were imbalanced before the nerf (I definitely do not now) because they were always counterable. Yes, there might be the Guassian Railgunners. But there are plenty of Jamons, Rudys, etc. who can and have devised numerous strategies to counter them. How many games have you won by railguns alone? I personally haven't seen a single game won by them. They may have aided in a victory, but they certainly were not the lone reason. Now one may argue, railguns kept killing us when we were trying to leave our hive and counter them. To which I reply, were you on a single hive against railguns? Did you only have lerks and skulks? Because then I doubt the railguns were the reason you lost and more the nail in the coffin. Ultimately, here's how I would break railguns down:
Railguns Pros:
- High burst
- Penetration
- Infinite Range
- Great in the wide open spaces
Railgun Cons:
- Horrible against onos... Seriously, stop buying railguns to fight onos people.
- Require constant support
- Poor overall DPS
- Slow
- Large Hitbox
- Unable to beacon
- Unable to phase
- Heavily restricted in the presence of additional exos
- Horrible in chokes (due to DPS and bile, etc.)
- Easily rushed (from multiple angles... Yes, running straight at a railgun and expecting it to die is not skillful.)
- Easily counter rushed (due to their low mobility)
The point being. Rails are most likely not the problem. It's what people are doing to counter them which is the problem.
3. But, being instant killed by a railgun as a lerk sucks.
Yes, I think being instantly killed as a lerk does suck. But then I have to ask why were you instant killed? Were you out of position floating in a single spot not moving spiking at exos from halfway across the map with crush? Were you rushing straight at a railgun down a hallway attempting to kill it?
A poor strategy does not validate a nerf. It simply validates the fact that you need to improve. What else could you have been doing as a lerk? Could you be helping with a counter rush? Could you be using umbra/spores? Could you be hitting resnodes or picking off reinforcing marines? If you have played this game for any amount of time, you know the risk of railguns. It is your fault for playing that risk over and over again trying to hit the jackpot.
4. This is an FPS, but also an RTS.
The FPS aspects of this game are very prevalent. However, this game is just as much RTS (if not more) than it is FPS. Having good shooters will hardly ever win you the game alone. However, having a good strategy, even with the newest of players, will almost always land you the win. Well, unless you were fighting against good shooters and an enemy team witha good strategy.
Anyway, I could go on, but this is already becoming an encyclopedia.
3. But, being instant killed by a railgun as a lerk sucks.
Yes, I think being instantly killed as a lerk does suck. But then I have to ask why were you instant killed? Were you out of position floating in a single spot not moving spiking at exos from halfway across the map with crush? Were you rushing straight at a railgun down a hallway attempting to kill it?
A poor strategy does not validate a nerf. It simply validates the fact that you need to improve. What else could you have been doing as a lerk? Could you be helping with a counter rush? Could you be using umbra/spores? Could you be hitting resnodes or picking off reinforcing marines? If you have played this game for any amount of time, you know the risk of railguns. It is your fault for playing that risk over and over again trying to hit the jackpot.
One distinction between facing off against a shotgun vs. against a railgun is that against a shotgun it's easier to tell what mistakes you made that led to you being killed. Against a shotgun, you moved too close or you weren't paying attention and backed into one. But against a railgun, you were in the same room and you drew too much attention to yourself.
Certainly in most cases there are other things that you could be doing around the map but will occasionally be forced to engage with a railgun, and you need to have a clear idea of how you should be doing that and what you should expect to achieve. With the railgun as it is, it's difficult to know what to do and what to do differently next time.
Does UWE send our rejection letters? I applied twice with about 14 months between each application. My first one was not as detailed as my second one. I received no communication from my first application. UWE has often done poorly at communication. Would a simple generic rejection letter be so much? The rejection letter could be the same for each rejection and maybe even have generic advise on how to make a good application.
Any other comments you would like to make?
"I like turtles"
He chose the wrong species. If he said bee's he would have had a better shot.
I don't think sending out rejection letters is feasible in this case. Not only are the overwhelming majority of applicants like this, but you don't want to send the message "try again" to people you don't want on your team.
A better way to communicate this kind of thing is to put a notice somewhere saying "if you don't hear back from us by X, assume you didn't make it" (paraphrasing). Just don't engage in a discussion.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
@NexZone30 railguns problem was the 1-shot ability on lerks which was unfair in a way that you could not counter except as "don't be in lign of sight to the exo". It was important to give the lerk a chance to flee after it was hit. So needing like 1 second to charge a second hit to kill a lerk is enough to deal with it. This had knock on effects on fades, gorges and skulks though. Srsly a bunch of carapace skulks hard counter railguns but no one ever goes crag hive anyway
@NexZone30 railguns problem was the 1-shot ability on lerks which was unfair in a way that you could not counter except as "don't be in lign of sight to the exo". It was important to give the lerk a chance to flee after it was hit. So needing like 1 second to charge a second hit to kill a lerk is enough to deal with it. This had knock on effects on fades, gorges and skulks though. Srsly a bunch of carapace skulks hard counter railguns but no one ever goes crag hive anyway
Then reduce the overall damage dual charge does whilst increasing the pres, this would of been a sensible soft change which impact can be measured over time, as of right now, there is no point in purchasing railgun exo at all now, minigun is just superior in everyway.
Railgun and minigun should compliment eachother but it doesn't feel balanced anymore
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited January 2018
I am pretty sure someone stated that the railgun changes are INTERIM until the exo (also the minigun) is in a better place. And with better place I guess that means how we can achieve that not 80% of the games ending with exo trains
Does UWE send our rejection letters? I applied twice with about 14 months between each application. My first one was not as detailed as my second one. I received no communication from my first application. UWE has often done poorly at communication. Would a simple generic rejection letter be so much? The rejection letter could be the same for each rejection and maybe even have generic advise on how to make a good application.
Any other comments you would like to make?
"I like turtles"
He chose the wrong species. If he said bee's he would have had a better shot.
I don't think sending out rejection letters is feasible in this case. Not only are the overwhelming majority of applicants like this, but you don't want to send the message "try again" to people you don't want on your team.
A better way to communicate this kind of thing is to put a notice somewhere saying "if you don't hear back from us by X, assume you didn't make it" (paraphrasing). Just don't engage in a discussion.
As someone who didn't hear back the first time for 14 months, I would have greatly appreciated even a simple and generic "you were not accepted" email.
I was encouraged to try again and I got in. You would not have had all the NS2 stats I have done if that had not happened.
re: the railgun changes - I always thought it would make sense for umbra to be extra effective as a defense against rails.
This would give the lerk a clearer role during engagements vs. railgunners, and offer the alien comm a research path that would serve as a soft counter.
Another, related modification that would serve a general purpose: the crag's healwave could release an umbra cloud (maybe slightly longer lasting) upon activation, which would help with hive defense. The res cost of spamming healwave should serve as an adequate limitation.
That idea may be outdated if the most recent changes are preferable.
Another, related modification that would serve a general purpose: the crag's healwave could release an umbra cloud (maybe slightly longer lasting) upon activation, which would help with hive defense. The res cost of spamming healwave should serve as an adequate limitation.
Umbra was originally a Crag ability. It's still called CragUmbra in the lua.
Is losing a lerk or a fade instantly to a shotgun frustrating? Yes. Is being chased down as an onos by a single or two jetpackers and being killed frustrating? Yes. Is losing a jetpacker to a lucky skulk using focus and leap frustrating? Yes. The common thread between these things is that they can be equally frustrating.
I appreciate the in depth write up you've provided, but just to chime in :
Personally, I do not feel like these scenarios contain the same factors or are equal in frustration to what was able to occur with railguns.
Consider that you need to have intentionally closed that distance gap entirely in order to get one shot by a shotgunner, or pushed in too far and without support or scouting as an onos, and losing a jetpack isn't as painful at 15 pres, nor is it as prevalent to leaping skulks considering the armor level typically acquired by that time which helps hugely against skulk bites. (not even including commander meds here either)
Simply entering a room at maximum range from the enemy resulting in an instant death provided a feeling of unfairness through a lack of control that simply does not equate to those other scenarios you painted, where the player has gone much further in regards to positioning and intent. The Alien player might not have even known that said railgun was across the cargo room sitting in a corner. Most frustration that comes from game mechanics are from the lack of control or chance to counter, and in this regard I feel like railguns were sitting in the worst spot compared to those other examples.
However, was I frustrated by the railgunner because railguns were unbalanced? No. Was I frustrated by the lack of strategy being displayed by the players facing the railguns? Absolutely.
I've said this before in these forums, but I love saying it again so :
At some point you have to ask, if the majority of players continue to fail to accomplish an intended design or mechanic after years worth of time, is it a failure of the design?
L2P works as a justification.. up to a point. After years worth of measuring the frequency and efficiency, if the majority still fail to do the intended thing, it might just be a failure of the design as the requirements are potentially too steep.
I'm not necessarily saying countering railguns fell into this category, but perhaps up against really good railgun players who knew how to position and had the proper support (that your team was not employing) it might just have been too high of a requirement? Maybe..
As someone who didn't hear back the first time for 14 months, I would have greatly appreciated even a simple and generic "you were not accepted" email. I was encouraged to try again and I got in
This is actually a large part of why we're never, in all these years, sent out a rejection letter.
If an applicant inquires we can inform them, but truthfully we have many many times brought on applicants who have applied long ago and who are still interested, just like you were.
But even if we decided to notify users "You were not accepted for this wave", (hoping this wont discourage them from future recruitment) my point still stands regarding the non-serious applications: with low effort or un-serious applications, I am not convinced it's worth our effort if it was not worth theirs.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited January 2018
The thing is once I see railguns up I just dislike playing the game in general... the game has many issues like Pingdelay and stuff... with that railgun is just unfun, especially with the ability to shoot through structures.
Even if you increase the loadup for railgun like 4-5 seconds with a crazy sound which can be heard by everyone to know when it shooots... that would be so fun and awesome BUT it will never work as long as there is lagcompensation
Dodging by looking at the exo to see where the exo is aiming and react accordingly doesn't work in ns2, since the lagcompensation let's you see what's already over... compared to ns1... even if you play on a server with ping lower than 50 all the time...
The thing is once I see railguns up I just dislike playing the game in general... the game has many issues like Pingdelay and stuff... with that railgun is just unfun, especially with the ability to shoot through structures.
Even if you increase the loadup for railgun like 4-5 seconds with a crazy sound which can be heard by everyone to know when it shooots... that would be so fun and awesome BUT it will never work as long as there is lagcompensation
Dodging by looking at the exo to see where the exo is aiming and react accordingly doesn't work in ns2, since the lagcompensation let's you see what's already over... compared to ns1... even if you play on a server with ping lower than 50 all the time...
People blame lag compensation as the source for railgun kills, but I believe most of the frustration comes from the size of the projectile, which is 0.3 meters. Lerks and skulks have more than double the cross-sectional area against a railgunner, making them almost as large as an onos to a rifle. This "size" also applies to being shot around walls. I've made a graphic of an approximation of their hitboxes to visualize it:
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
@IronHorse fun part is that public balance would shift very hard when ns2 comes with a matchmaking system that allows people to group up in a lobby and play together with friends on the same team. I assume teamwork and coordination would raise quite a bit then.
@IronHorse I think the potential perception that one spectacular railgunner can dominate comes from the high likelihood there is not an individual to offset that high-skilled railgunner on the other team. In pub matches, on even skilled teams, I hardly ever see railguns as an issue (they're almost a joke). However, in a game where a far-off higher skill player hops in a railgun, it definitely tends to lead to a more salty time. I think this is the case more or so because many players are not or do not seem prepared to deal with that level of player (they don't just dominate with a railgun, let's be honest.) Overall, I think railguns could be far better improved by many of the suggestions in this thread instead of just overall decreasing their DPS.
My favorite suggestions were the one about fall-off damage (range and/or penetration wise) and a soft counter umbra buff.
As a final thought, I think my opinion stems from my time on TGNS where the average player skill and teamwork were much higher than the normal pub. On that server most individuals were able to counter exos so well that they were deemed trash and were unusable. #I'mBiased
the high likelihood there is not an individual to offset that high-skilled railgunner on the other team
In my experience, even a moderately skilled player was able to oneshot far higher skilled players. For example, @Hobbes is an amazing lerk and magnitudes higher skilled than I am. Even a player like me could fairly easily kill Hobbes. I am not saying that I am just that good, but that that the railgun makes greater skill on the other team irrelevant. This was part of the problem.
Comments
Raising the pres, reducing the base damage, total damage AND removing dual charge doesn't sound like incremental balance changes, more like sudden shifts, take the flamethrower changes for example...
@Nordic is it a possibility to produce a chart that indicates use of railgun exo pre and post update 320?
If so, how am I able to make this?
The fact is that the railgun was too strong in the hands of players of sufficient skill. It was an infinite range shotgun that could shoot through structures. The solution to fight it was to keep throwing skulks at it until you got onos because a sufficiently skilled railgun was assured death for a lerk and was very dangerous for a fade. One of the early suggestions people brought up in the UWE Discord was to add damage fall off. As I understand it, this is difficult to implement and difficult to communicate to players. I am often one of the first to say that the game should not be balanced solely from the top down, but this balance change was necessary because of the top skilled players. In a way, think of this is balance from the top down. As I see it, less railguns is a generally positive thing.
If you read the patch notes you will see that these are probably temporary changes until something better is found.
You will see in that statement "resounding community feedback." If you feel underrepresented then you can participate in the UWE's Discord channel. There was more than a significant amount of feedback about railguns needing nerfed there. Add your voice to the conversation to balance out the opinions you disagree with.
Damage falloff was originally in the alpha or beta for the shotgun, and possibly other ranged weapons. The game still has support for it and it would be easy to add. Some mods already have it.
From what I saw in Discord it was mostly if not all high skill players.
when you have no skill segregation of any kind, you try to catter to the one who arent invested yet, the others will probably stay anyway.
That explains the extreme nerfs all at once, steamchart panic attack, but not why removing dual charging when you can instead just nerf the damage which is the same?
Now, dear devs have you at all considered the option of bringing back the claw for rail exo and removing the shoot cooldown.
Because sorry on top of being EVEN CLUNKIER, it makes about as much sense as wanting to remove dual shooting when you could instead just nerf the damage to have dual exos which can't dual shoot but with each gun binded as if they could, make up your mind?
Perhaps you wouldn't if you knew more about how the applications are filled out.
We are somewhat selective in deciding who to bring on board, as its a unique role, and we need people who demonstrate crazy attention to detail, who work well with a team, and demonstrate a high degree of effort.
I've never publicly shown an application result, however since it's currently being framed in this thread that there are willing persons that we are unwilling to have on board, here is an example of an applicant who will probably recognize it:
What do you think makes you a good candidate for being an NS2 Playtester?
"critical, outside-the-box thinker"
Do you have any special skills that could help NS2's future development?
"can roll spliffs"
Any other comments you would like to make?
"I like turtles"
Other re-applications from this same individual included such things as
"can cook minute rice in 58 sec"
Or
"( . Y . )"
And no, these are not taken out of context or edited, that is the entirety of the responses.
Conversely, here is just one response to a single question from an applicant who I have accepted today:
I know how little things can ruin a users experience, not expecting anything fancy. If by my running into a wall 200 times proves you cannot glitch through, I'd view it as time well spent.
I've not taken part in play testing before, but I'm a quick learner, can follow instruction (even if that is to be independent and "find things to break) and work well as part of a distributed / spit team.
Perhaps we can be better at sending out rejection letters, but with low effort or un-serious applications, I am not convinced it's worth our effort if it was not worth theirs.
He chose the wrong species. If he said bee's he would have had a better shot.
1. Was rail damage and/or burst damage frustrating?
The quick answer is yes. Being able to one shot skulks and occasionally lerks from a gameplay perspective can be a frustrating mechanic in this game. However, I would also beg you to consider what else is frustrating about this game. Is losing a lerk or a fade instantly to a shotgun frustrating? Yes. Is being chased down as an onos by a single or two jetpackers and being killed frustrating? Yes. Is losing a jetpacker to a lucky skulk using focus and leap frustrating? Yes. The common thread between these things is that they can be equally frustrating.
However, they can be equally gratifying. How would you feel if you were the marine who killed that lerk, fade, or onos? How would you feel as that skulk who got that pesky jetpacker? You'd feel as if you would have done something significant and meaningful to help your team. (This is why I understand and agree with the pres changes. Exos did not feel significant to kill in some, NOT ALL, games as they would reappear in mass.)
Arguably these mechanics are both satisfying and irritating. Now, one might say, but something can be largely unsatisfying to a good portion of individuals. Yes, that can be the case. For instance, god mode. To most individuals, this would be an entirely unsatisfying mechanic to have in a competitive game as there's no competition. The godmoder can't be beaten and is literally unstoppable. Ultimately, more people find it unsatisfying that godmode exists than do the people who find it satisfying. As such, this would indicate that godmode shouldn't be a part of the general competitive shooter gameplay environment.
This example of a 'godmode' like state could be associated to that the flamethrower bug. To the players on the receiving end, it felt as if they were being dismantled and were unable to do anything. To the executors, at first it felt fun, but it eventually became boring and seemed unfair.
The point being, I did not see this 'godmode' like state before the nerf to railguns and I certainly do not see it post nerf. Yes, I experienced the Guassian Railgunners quite often. Yes, I was frustrated. However, was I frustrated by the railgunner because railguns were unbalanced? No. Was I frustrated by the lack of strategy being displayed by the players facing the railguns? Absolutely.
2. Were railguns overpowered or unbalanced?
No, I personally do not believe railguns were imbalanced before the nerf (I definitely do not now) because they were always counterable. Yes, there might be the Guassian Railgunners. But there are plenty of Jamons, Rudys, etc. who can and have devised numerous strategies to counter them. How many games have you won by railguns alone? I personally haven't seen a single game won by them. They may have aided in a victory, but they certainly were not the lone reason. Now one may argue, railguns kept killing us when we were trying to leave our hive and counter them. To which I reply, were you on a single hive against railguns? Did you only have lerks and skulks? Because then I doubt the railguns were the reason you lost and more the nail in the coffin. Ultimately, here's how I would break railguns down:
Railguns Pros:
- High burst
- Penetration
- Infinite Range
- Great in the wide open spaces
Railgun Cons:
- Horrible against onos... Seriously, stop buying railguns to fight onos people.
- Require constant support
- Poor overall DPS
- Slow
- Large Hitbox
- Unable to beacon
- Unable to phase
- Heavily restricted in the presence of additional exos
- Horrible in chokes (due to DPS and bile, etc.)
- Easily rushed (from multiple angles... Yes, running straight at a railgun and expecting it to die is not skillful.)
- Easily counter rushed (due to their low mobility)
The point being. Rails are most likely not the problem. It's what people are doing to counter them which is the problem.
3. But, being instant killed by a railgun as a lerk sucks.
Yes, I think being instantly killed as a lerk does suck. But then I have to ask why were you instant killed? Were you out of position floating in a single spot not moving spiking at exos from halfway across the map with crush? Were you rushing straight at a railgun down a hallway attempting to kill it?
A poor strategy does not validate a nerf. It simply validates the fact that you need to improve. What else could you have been doing as a lerk? Could you be helping with a counter rush? Could you be using umbra/spores? Could you be hitting resnodes or picking off reinforcing marines? If you have played this game for any amount of time, you know the risk of railguns. It is your fault for playing that risk over and over again trying to hit the jackpot.
4. This is an FPS, but also an RTS.
The FPS aspects of this game are very prevalent. However, this game is just as much RTS (if not more) than it is FPS. Having good shooters will hardly ever win you the game alone. However, having a good strategy, even with the newest of players, will almost always land you the win. Well, unless you were fighting against good shooters and an enemy team witha good strategy.
Anyway, I could go on, but this is already becoming an encyclopedia.
One distinction between facing off against a shotgun vs. against a railgun is that against a shotgun it's easier to tell what mistakes you made that led to you being killed. Against a shotgun, you moved too close or you weren't paying attention and backed into one. But against a railgun, you were in the same room and you drew too much attention to yourself.
Certainly in most cases there are other things that you could be doing around the map but will occasionally be forced to engage with a railgun, and you need to have a clear idea of how you should be doing that and what you should expect to achieve. With the railgun as it is, it's difficult to know what to do and what to do differently next time.
I don't think sending out rejection letters is feasible in this case. Not only are the overwhelming majority of applicants like this, but you don't want to send the message "try again" to people you don't want on your team.
A better way to communicate this kind of thing is to put a notice somewhere saying "if you don't hear back from us by X, assume you didn't make it" (paraphrasing). Just don't engage in a discussion.
Then reduce the overall damage dual charge does whilst increasing the pres, this would of been a sensible soft change which impact can be measured over time, as of right now, there is no point in purchasing railgun exo at all now, minigun is just superior in everyway.
Railgun and minigun should compliment eachother but it doesn't feel balanced anymore
As someone who didn't hear back the first time for 14 months, I would have greatly appreciated even a simple and generic "you were not accepted" email.
I was encouraged to try again and I got in. You would not have had all the NS2 stats I have done if that had not happened.
This would give the lerk a clearer role during engagements vs. railgunners, and offer the alien comm a research path that would serve as a soft counter.
Another, related modification that would serve a general purpose: the crag's healwave could release an umbra cloud (maybe slightly longer lasting) upon activation, which would help with hive defense. The res cost of spamming healwave should serve as an adequate limitation.
That idea may be outdated if the most recent changes are preferable.
Umbra was originally a Crag ability. It's still called CragUmbra in the lua.
I appreciate the in depth write up you've provided, but just to chime in :
Personally, I do not feel like these scenarios contain the same factors or are equal in frustration to what was able to occur with railguns.
Consider that you need to have intentionally closed that distance gap entirely in order to get one shot by a shotgunner, or pushed in too far and without support or scouting as an onos, and losing a jetpack isn't as painful at 15 pres, nor is it as prevalent to leaping skulks considering the armor level typically acquired by that time which helps hugely against skulk bites. (not even including commander meds here either)
Simply entering a room at maximum range from the enemy resulting in an instant death provided a feeling of unfairness through a lack of control that simply does not equate to those other scenarios you painted, where the player has gone much further in regards to positioning and intent. The Alien player might not have even known that said railgun was across the cargo room sitting in a corner. Most frustration that comes from game mechanics are from the lack of control or chance to counter, and in this regard I feel like railguns were sitting in the worst spot compared to those other examples.
I've said this before in these forums,
At some point you have to ask, if the majority of players continue to fail to accomplish an intended design or mechanic after years worth of time, is it a failure of the design?
L2P works as a justification.. up to a point. After years worth of measuring the frequency and efficiency, if the majority still fail to do the intended thing, it might just be a failure of the design as the requirements are potentially too steep.
I'm not necessarily saying countering railguns fell into this category, but perhaps up against really good railgun players who knew how to position and had the proper support (that your team was not employing) it might just have been too high of a requirement? Maybe..
This is actually a large part of why we're never, in all these years, sent out a rejection letter.
If an applicant inquires we can inform them, but truthfully we have many many times brought on applicants who have applied long ago and who are still interested, just like you were.
But even if we decided to notify users "You were not accepted for this wave", (hoping this wont discourage them from future recruitment) my point still stands regarding the non-serious applications: with low effort or un-serious applications, I am not convinced it's worth our effort if it was not worth theirs.
Even if you increase the loadup for railgun like 4-5 seconds with a crazy sound which can be heard by everyone to know when it shooots... that would be so fun and awesome BUT it will never work as long as there is lagcompensation
Dodging by looking at the exo to see where the exo is aiming and react accordingly doesn't work in ns2, since the lagcompensation let's you see what's already over... compared to ns1... even if you play on a server with ping lower than 50 all the time...
People blame lag compensation as the source for railgun kills, but I believe most of the frustration comes from the size of the projectile, which is 0.3 meters. Lerks and skulks have more than double the cross-sectional area against a railgunner, making them almost as large as an onos to a rifle. This "size" also applies to being shot around walls. I've made a graphic of an approximation of their hitboxes to visualize it:
In other words, a small bus.
Certainly makes you feel worse for every shot you miss, at least...
Zavaro, step into my office please. I need to have a word about the severity of this BUS pun infraction
My favorite suggestions were the one about fall-off damage (range and/or penetration wise) and a soft counter umbra buff.
As a final thought, I think my opinion stems from my time on TGNS where the average player skill and teamwork were much higher than the normal pub. On that server most individuals were able to counter exos so well that they were deemed trash and were unusable. #I'mBiased
Mostly what I'm talking about in a picture:
Edit by Ghoul: Wrapped large image with a spoiler