Its simply coincidence that you lose constantly as aliens. Most of the times I play marines our team loses. But when I'm alien I usually win just because I'm more skilled at alien. One person on the team can make the difference as for example, the other night, I alone lerked a phase-gate,Tf,turrets in waste handling and we were able to take the hive from the 2 hive marine hold. All because of me. I once made a long post about how the games in NS are completely spontaneous depending on the players and the decisions they make. That is why NS is a strategy game more than a FPS.
The server you may be playing on Harpoon may always have the same players on it and the same players always go the same team and maybe you just happen to get the alien teammates with bad-lag, (to be honest) less skill, or lack of teamwork on your team.
I know honestly and proudly I can say that I can win most of the time as alien when I am Gorge. I still lose a few battles but lately I seem godlike as gorge. One person can determine wither you win or lose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyways, maybe I've been playing in the wrong servers... but the west coast ones with around 14-18 people.. aliens always loose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not in the 5 rounds i played last night... marines won twice, aliens 3 times... and this is a server half populated with clanners.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And with three or four turrets in a semi circle around the factory, there is NO WAY a single skulk or even two will be able to scratch the factory or the turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It strikes me that, since the comm has gone to the effort of investing nearly 100 RP in hardenening that particular point, it should *not* be possible for a 0-4 res (figuring 2 upgrades max) skulk to drop that point very easily. You're using the wrong tool ( a single skulk ) for the job.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes I might go over voice "meet me at spawn and we'll take out turrets at blah blah" or what not.. but that process is very cumbersome. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, i'm *so* sorry that using teamwork is "cumbersome" for you. Meanwhile, any semi-decent group of players on a 16 player server will allow you to dredge up 3-4 skulks for a raid on a turret emplacement, which increases your odds significantly.
I mean, jeez... it's so unfair that a team actually has to work together to destroy a marine position which took a couple of minutes and many resources to set up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ironically in order for the aliens to get the capability to take out those turrets guarding the hives, they have to have the hives in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to prove otherwise... i watched a beautiful assault on a defended hive last night. Four skulks hit the *very* heavily defended area (2 sieges and about 8-9 turrets)... just as the gorge started *building* the hive. Hive goes up, starts drawing a massive amount of fire... and meanwhile the skulks rush the TF and start chewing on it. Gorge goes bounding across the room dropping a couple of D towers on each siege... and they blew themselves up. TF goes down, the skulks jump to the phasegate and begin eating the marines as they come out of it, as well as the phase itself. Expensive in resources? Yes... but so was the base that they destroyed. Requiring teamwork? Yes... that's sort of the point of NS.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Harpoon+Jan 26 2003, 04:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harpoon @ Jan 26 2003, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every patch its made seem that it is keeping the two teams equal and balanced. But this is never the case.
Every single game I have joined in the past 5 days I have started playing again, the marines have always outnumbered the aliens. Every single time, mostly by a margin of 3. Often though its more than that, with a difference of 5 or so. What pisses me off is when servers set their mp_autoconcede to some **** number like 7, so obviously stacked teams are allowed to play out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to read further than this. You are obviously playing on a larger server (I'd guess 12v12?). As has been pointed out several times, ns is balanced only at the 6v6-9v9 range. If the marines manages to loose larger server games, the aliens must have been much, much better than the marines. At 12v12 or bigger, the only thing that can help the aliens is a noob commander.
Hint: play smaller servers if you want aliens to have an even break. At the designed-for server sizes, ns is very well balanced.
<!--QuoteBegin--Harpoon+Jan 27 2003, 12:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harpoon @ Jan 27 2003, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno guys, maybe you've been playing in servers where the marines were all like "What do I do in commander mode?" or "where do you buy guns??" thus allowing you to win in consecutively. And I've only played marines once in the past few days, again because marines always have more players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Late night sessions on nano can hardly be considered NUB Sessions. You want to see a marine not miss? Go in when the good people are in. Hell... I learned ns by getting schooled on nano when it was open by the playtesters...
All I can say is that you have yet to provide valid or SOLID support for your arguments in pubs. You say 4 turrets covering a tf is impossible? Im sorry.. im usually not rude... but that is pathetic. Even jp rushes are counterable... a bit harder... but it can be done.
I will express no opinion on the clan match topic as I have no first hand evidence to base any facts on. I would advise you to do the same.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--KMGor+Jan 27 2003, 04:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KMGor @ Jan 27 2003, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, and Harpoon.. A bit more on why larger servers are imbalanced.
There are THREE main reasons.
1. Marines vastly outspawn the aliens, they can essentially just over run them and win.
2. The resource model. With so many players, the gorge(s) have VERY slow res coming in.
3. Marines gain power exponetially by each player, rather then the basically multiplying of each extra alien player. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh .. #2 is a bit backwards. The gorges do get a bit slower resources in larger games, not by all that much though - going from a 4v4 to 16v16 slows a single gorge income by 20%, about. Much of the effect is due to the base 10 res/minute both sides get - in a 4v4 game, that's half of the starting income but only 1/4 of the starting income in a 16v16 game.
The real problem is that the marines have NO per-marine costs until it's time to drop HMG's/HA/JP etc. Before that time, all resources can be used to tech up. As resource income increases with teamsize, the time needed to pay for research halves every time you double the marine team size. Even going from 6v6 to 9v9 increases marine resources by 50% for the same number of resnodes.
<!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Jan 27 2003, 02:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jan 27 2003, 02:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Harpoon+Jan 26 2003, 04:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harpoon @ Jan 26 2003, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every patch its made seem that it is keeping the two teams equal and balanced. But this is never the case.
Every single game I have joined in the past 5 days I have started playing again, the marines have always outnumbered the aliens. Every single time, mostly by a margin of 3. Often though its more than that, with a difference of 5 or so. What pisses me off is when servers set their mp_autoconcede to some **** number like 7, so obviously stacked teams are allowed to play out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to read further than this. You are obviously playing on a larger server (I'd guess 12v12?). As has been pointed out several times, ns is balanced only at the 6v6-9v9 range. If the marines manages to loose larger server games, the aliens must have been much, much better than the marines. At 12v12 or bigger, the only thing that can help the aliens is a noob commander.
Hint: play smaller servers if you want aliens to have an even break. At the designed-for server sizes, ns is very well balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ah yes. I was unaware of this. No wonder everyone in the thread seemed so perplexed.. they must stick to the smaller servers... personally I find the bigger ones more fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Harpoon, your problem is that you use absolutes in a game where there are none.
There are no tried and true methods.
Even if there is a well established routine to go through, the opposing team will work (and implement) a countermove if their current tactic is not working. Then the original team starts a counter for a counter.
Ever played chess? Ever get beaten in 4 moves?
Ever make that mistake twice? This game is all about learning to adapt, not about how things are impossible. Natural Selection---Charles Darwin----theory of evolution.
To the best of my knowledge, the incoming resources also get a boost when the aliens have a lot of players... maybe the variable just needs a little tweak upwards.
Unknown.. Yes you are correct, they do parasite and report that "the enemy is near". my mistake
Hitboxes still puzzle me, why does it show sometimes when an Alien(particularly a skulk) kills a Marine and NS displays a skull and not a bite or leap?
you'll have to play at least several dozen games on several different servers before you have any basis for a judgement of game balance. the consensus about 1.03 was that it favored marines, but it didn't become obvious till fairly recently. i think we need to give 1.04 some more time.
as for team work: i'd say both aliens and marines need a lot of team work, but it's different for either.
aliens are in a way more individual because they have no comm and they can choose upgrades mostly individually. the drawback is that it's more difficult to organize the team, the advantage is that -through good team work- the aliens can make more combos of classes and upgrades, where marines are fairly limited (marines have other advantages). using the right combo in a given situation can give a decisive advantage. ie marines have nothing like umbra nor anything like webs (when used in offense or active defense), but those require good teamwork by the aliens. there's no comm to dictate what to do, aliens somehow have to reach agreement about what to and how to do it.
Yes there are a few issues I have about the Aliens and Marines that are not covered in this topic.
1. Marines have only 1 start point always the same, not like the Aliens which have 3 random points.
2. Phase gates and movement chambers, phase gates can used by Marines and Aliens but movement chambers cannot be used by Marines.
3. Hitboxes, I have not noticed any special hitbox on a skulk, but on a Marine if a skulk does a jump/bite it almost certain death for a Marine, aka headshot.
4.Sensory chamber, well most of the servers I have played on, it is the last special chamber to be built. It has no external features like the defence chamber and movement chamber. Maybe incorporate a disorientating effect if a Marine comes close to it and/or provide infra red type sight when Aliens are near it(when the flashlight toggle is on).
K this is kinda off topic but, I have the same sig as you on my hd Harpoon, I wanted to put it on but I thought it wouldve got deleted by the mods...guess not... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As long as the marines dont JP /shotty rush, aliens vs marines is very very very balanced on pub play. In clan games rushing will still occur and marines have the advantage.
I dont think so, 90% of the games it goes like this.
Marines go for hive, alien goes for hive, alien gets fades, own marines and get 3rd hive, rines loose i posted about this before but admins struck it down :O
<!--QuoteBegin--StandingCow+Jan 26 2003, 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StandingCow @ Jan 26 2003, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This was probly one of the least correct posts I have ever read...Marines need MORE teamwork then aliens especially now with the update.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ego+Jan 27 2003, 08:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ego @ Jan 27 2003, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont think so, 90% of the games it goes like this.
Marines go for hive, alien goes for hive, alien gets fades, own marines and get 3rd hive, rines loose i posted about this before but admins struck it down :O
anywho, aliens > rines by far imo..
Ego <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines begin with 100 ressources, with this they can do lot of things (protect, upgrade, expand, nodes...)!!! Aliens begin with ~13 ressources each, just anough to be gorge. they can't protect their hive!!! At the begining the aliens are very weak if you aggress them. Of course if you let them jump all around the map and make all they want, you loose, it's logical.
The issue of the game, is to control the game!!! If you d'ont control the game, if you let the oppponents make all they want, you gonna loose (that's true for the 2 sides!).
<!--QuoteBegin--Richard_X+Jan 27 2003, 11:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Richard_X @ Jan 27 2003, 11:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. Hitboxes, I have not noticed any special hitbox on a skulk, but on a Marine if a skulk does a jump/bite it almost certain death for a Marine, aka headshot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There's no location-specific damage in NS, for either team. You're just getting pre-wounded marines <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Richard_X+Jan 27 2003, 01:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Richard_X @ Jan 27 2003, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 4.Sensory chamber, well most of the servers I have played on, it is the last special chamber to be built. It has no external features like the defence chamber and movement chamber. Maybe incorporate a disorientating effect if a Marine comes close to it and/or provide infra red type sight when Aliens are near it(when the flashlight toggle is on). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The SC can "see" enemies and parasite them if they touch it. It also says "The enemy is apporaching." by the hive mind.
When people say that Marines lose more often, I chuckle and ask them..
"Well if that is the case, then WHY is there alwayds a line-up to join the marine team? Do these people enjoy losing?"
Usually I get no response. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
While the game most certainly favours the marines, you have to take into account that when you pit a bad marine team against a good alien team, the alien team WILL win.
That doesn't make the game balanced though... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Harpoon+Jan 27 2003, 04:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harpoon @ Jan 27 2003, 04:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Jan 27 2003, 02:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jan 27 2003, 02:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Harpoon+Jan 26 2003, 04:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harpoon @ Jan 26 2003, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every patch its made seem that it is keeping the two teams equal and balanced. But this is never the case.
Every single game I have joined in the past 5 days I have started playing again, the marines have always outnumbered the aliens. Every single time, mostly by a margin of 3. Often though its more than that, with a difference of 5 or so. What pisses me off is when servers set their mp_autoconcede to some **** number like 7, so obviously stacked teams are allowed to play out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to read further than this. You are obviously playing on a larger server (I'd guess 12v12?). As has been pointed out several times, ns is balanced only at the 6v6-9v9 range. If the marines manages to loose larger server games, the aliens must have been much, much better than the marines. At 12v12 or bigger, the only thing that can help the aliens is a noob commander.
Hint: play smaller servers if you want aliens to have an even break. At the designed-for server sizes, ns is very well balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ah yes. I was unaware of this. No wonder everyone in the thread seemed so perplexed.. they must stick to the smaller servers... personally I find the bigger ones more fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
thanks for clearing that up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This explains a lot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There's a reason why CAL is 6v6. Try some smaller servers, the game is much more intense and focused. I've tried some 12v12, it's an unorganized nightmare. Also, try to play in servers were there are more clan members (of any clan). While it's not always the case, generally if someone is in a clan it means they meet some sort of semblance of quality (in their ability). It's not always the case, I've seen clanless people totally destroy clan members, but I think as a very very general rule it holds.
1.04 has made marine upgrades and structures more costly and weaker, and sieges are no longer godly.
as a skulk i can kill one turret easily then run off to heal, assuming there are not five more turrets shooting at me, or quite often there is a blind spot from which to bite the TF.
perhaps now the teams are balanced, assuming a clan match with an extremely proficient commander and marines who follow orders and aliens that know what they are doing.
-----however--------
i play public servers, there is VERY rarely a proficient commander or marines who follow orders. i have played about 16 1.04 games and seen marines win ONE. that one game they had 7 players to our four. even if NS is now perfectly balanced for clan matches with high skill, surely if public servers cannot have decent games the number of new players will deminish and the game will die off, i dont want to see that happen this soon, something should be done to help out the not-elite class of players!
i enjoy palying aliens and severely owning the marines, cuz winning is fun, but then i feel bad and want to play them, but they never win! maybe i should find other servers ? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Actually, I've heard that marines are much better in clan matches over public matches. "
Yeah, when the marines are all truely skilled, with a good comm and all stick together and use teamplay, they usually win. There's a sort of curve for NS. At the very low end of teamplay/skill, the aliens usually win. At the medium it's pretty equal, and at the top end the marines almost always win.
From what I've read in posts by developers, they tend to agree with that (even though the imbalance isn't really HUGE, the fact is that 4 round clan matches almost always end in a tie - 2 marine wins for each side) and are attempting to very slowly balance it. Which is great.
1.04 was a big step in the right direction, in my mind at least.
Oh, and Harpoon.. A bit more on why larger servers are imbalanced.
There are THREE main reasons.
1. Marines vastly outspawn the aliens, they can essentially just over run them and win.
2. The resource model. With so many players, the gorge(s) have VERY slow res coming in.
3. Marines gain power exponetially by each player, rather then the basically multiplying of each extra alien player.
Seems there's alot of diffferent opinions floating around in this thread, and that's a good thing. IMO alien is far more easier simply because you have alot more freedom in movement. Relating to the story of the mod, it's marines invading already established alien territory. This is evident in the game as it just feels easier moving around as an alien rather than an uneasy marine. As mentioned many many times before, marine success relies on <i>one</i> persons long-term decisions and quick-wits. <i>Eg. One commander and one marine are required to successfully build a resource tower. One alien is required to successfully build a resource tower.</i>
There's also the fact, though, that it takes a gorge a minute or so to get a resource tower up... four marines can get up a tower real quick, *and* cover each other, *and* be a fairly effective combat unit relative to a fatty <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Four gorges can speed things up... but that plays hell with any kind of combat-able team, and makes resourcing a pain.
Just because they have turrets up at a hive location doesn't mean that it's invincible. Often our team gather up the skulks together, and we all charge in to take out the phase. (a job that doesn't take very long anymore)
As soon as the phase is down, we all go for the TF, sure it's going to hurt with the turrets firing at you. But with your whole team attacking it and having the phase down, the TF will go down pretty fast.
I think that games are not really decided already if the Marines have 2 hives guarded. Aliens lose because the players are not willing to fight together. Often the skulks will wander off by themselves, only to get killed by upgraded LMGs. (which hurts a lot) If the skulks are willing to work together, turrets won't mean much. The hard part is KEEPING the hive location defended.
Another note on JPers, I only think they are effective in maps with a really big open area. (ex. Refinery hive and Viaduct hive, on maps I can't remember) I remember being a fade and how annoying it was trying to shoot down a marine flying all over the place.
i just finish a 3 hours game on a 7vs7 server (map ns_hera hive: archiving/ventilation/data core, and 2 ressources at holoroom).... And i saw how the game is balance!!! I'm with the aliens, and i'll gorge at the begin our first hive was data core. We take archiving (with little fights). The 2 teams are very composite strong guys, newbies and etc... At this point we destroy all the marine base (not me, i'm the gorge remember <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ). But marines move their base at the ressource higher than holoroom. then they resist a lot (i think they upgrade their weapons at this point)... I continue my work of gorge and take the third hive!!!! But at the same time, the marines capt the strat?gic point near data core (you know the point with one TF you can place 2 siege and shoot ventilation and data core)... First they destroy data core, then ventilation.... (Yeah they don't loose, we've got 3 hive but they don't loose!!).
At this point, we think we're loosing, but we resist, attack, attack and attack the strategic point... but they now got HA/HMG... and they build just near archiving (teleport + TF) with 3 HA/HMG. We resist at all, we push them out of the hive. and during this time, a gorge go to datacore and rebuild it... With chance i found a weakpoint on their strategic point, we destroy the tf, and the teleport. and attack there base. destroy it. THE END....
So marines resist against 3 hives. Aliens resist against HA/HMG. The teams are pretty good (not clan teams, but not newbie team).... And you say it's unbalance.... rrrhhh... resist...
So how did you came to this conclusion? Every game you played the balance in terms of number of players, player skill, teamwork and map layout was totally even?
Unless things were totally balanced to begin with, I can't see how you determined things were inbalanced overall.
I think 1.04 is balanced but I have to agree that clan matches favor marines because marines need teamwork while in a pub match this is hard to get because you don't know the people most of the time while aliens have a more skill orientation to them a good skulk can cut down marines just by waiting for them to seperate cutting down the loner but in clan match this rarely happens because their used to working together but in terms of gameplay its balanced
on public server with players who know the game, i made 18 wars. results : 15 aliens victories.... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
The server you may be playing on Harpoon may always have the same players on it and the same players always go the same team and maybe you just happen to get the alien teammates with bad-lag, (to be honest) less skill, or lack of teamwork on your team.
I know honestly and proudly I can say that I can win most of the time as alien when I am Gorge. I still lose a few battles but lately I seem godlike as gorge. One person can determine wither you win or lose.
Not in the 5 rounds i played last night... marines won twice, aliens 3 times... and this is a server half populated with clanners.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And with three or four turrets in a semi circle around the factory, there is NO WAY a single skulk or even two will be able to scratch the factory or the turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It strikes me that, since the comm has gone to the effort of investing nearly 100 RP in hardenening that particular point, it should *not* be possible for a 0-4 res (figuring 2 upgrades max) skulk to drop that point very easily. You're using the wrong tool ( a single skulk ) for the job.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes I might go over voice "meet me at spawn and we'll take out turrets at blah blah" or what not.. but that process is very cumbersome. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, i'm *so* sorry that using teamwork is "cumbersome" for you. Meanwhile, any semi-decent group of players on a 16 player server will allow you to dredge up 3-4 skulks for a raid on a turret emplacement, which increases your odds significantly.
I mean, jeez... it's so unfair that a team actually has to work together to destroy a marine position which took a couple of minutes and many resources to set up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ironically in order for the aliens to get the capability to take out those turrets guarding the hives, they have to have the hives in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to prove otherwise... i watched a beautiful assault on a defended hive last night. Four skulks hit the *very* heavily defended area (2 sieges and about 8-9 turrets)... just as the gorge started *building* the hive. Hive goes up, starts drawing a massive amount of fire... and meanwhile the skulks rush the TF and start chewing on it. Gorge goes bounding across the room dropping a couple of D towers on each siege... and they blew themselves up. TF goes down, the skulks jump to the phasegate and begin eating the marines as they come out of it, as well as the phase itself. Expensive in resources? Yes... but so was the base that they destroyed. Requiring teamwork? Yes... that's sort of the point of NS.
Which you seem to have missed entirely.
Every single game I have joined in the past 5 days I have started playing again, the marines have always outnumbered the aliens. Every single time, mostly by a margin of 3. Often though its more than that, with a difference of 5 or so. What pisses me off is when servers set their mp_autoconcede to some **** number like 7, so obviously stacked teams are allowed to play out.
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No need to read further than this. You are obviously playing on a larger server (I'd guess 12v12?). As has been pointed out several times, ns is balanced only at the 6v6-9v9 range. If the marines manages to loose larger server games, the aliens must have been much, much better than the marines. At 12v12 or bigger, the only thing that can help the aliens is a noob commander.
Hint: play smaller servers if you want aliens to have an even break. At the designed-for server sizes, ns is very well balanced.
I dunno guys, maybe you've been playing in servers where the marines were all like "What do I do in commander mode?" or "where do you buy guns??" thus allowing you to win in consecutively. And I've only played marines once in the past few days, again because marines always have more players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Late night sessions on nano can hardly be considered NUB Sessions. You want to see a marine not miss? Go in when the good people are in. Hell... I learned ns by getting schooled on nano when it was open by the playtesters...
All I can say is that you have yet to provide valid or SOLID support for your arguments in pubs. You say 4 turrets covering a tf is impossible? Im sorry.. im usually not rude... but that is pathetic.
Even jp rushes are counterable... a bit harder... but it can be done.
I will express no opinion on the clan match topic as I have no first hand evidence to base any facts on. I would advise you to do the same.
There are THREE main reasons.
1. Marines vastly outspawn the aliens, they can essentially just over run them and win.
2. The resource model. With so many players, the gorge(s) have VERY slow res coming in.
3. Marines gain power exponetially by each player, rather then the basically multiplying of each extra alien player. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh .. #2 is a bit backwards. The gorges do get a bit slower resources in larger games, not by all that much though - going from a 4v4 to 16v16 slows a single gorge income by 20%, about. Much of the effect is due to the base 10 res/minute both sides get - in a 4v4 game, that's half of the starting income but only 1/4 of the starting income in a 16v16 game.
The real problem is that the marines have NO per-marine costs until it's time to drop HMG's/HA/JP etc. Before that time, all resources can be used to tech up. As resource income increases with teamsize, the time needed to pay for research halves every time you double the marine team size. Even going from 6v6 to 9v9 increases marine resources by 50% for the same number of resnodes.
Every single game I have joined in the past 5 days I have started playing again, the marines have always outnumbered the aliens. Every single time, mostly by a margin of 3. Often though its more than that, with a difference of 5 or so. What pisses me off is when servers set their mp_autoconcede to some **** number like 7, so obviously stacked teams are allowed to play out.
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No need to read further than this. You are obviously playing on a larger server (I'd guess 12v12?). As has been pointed out several times, ns is balanced only at the 6v6-9v9 range. If the marines manages to loose larger server games, the aliens must have been much, much better than the marines. At 12v12 or bigger, the only thing that can help the aliens is a noob commander.
Hint: play smaller servers if you want aliens to have an even break. At the designed-for server sizes, ns is very well balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah yes. I was unaware of this. No wonder everyone in the thread seemed so perplexed.. they must stick to the smaller servers... personally I find the bigger ones more fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
thanks for clearing that up.
There are no tried and true methods.
Even if there is a well established routine to go through, the opposing team will work (and implement) a countermove if their current tactic is not working. Then the original team starts a counter for a counter.
Ever played chess? Ever get beaten in 4 moves?
Ever make that mistake twice? This game is all about learning to adapt, not about how things are impossible. Natural Selection---Charles Darwin----theory of evolution.
Dont be a stegosaurus man, evolve.
Hitboxes still puzzle me, why does it show sometimes when an Alien(particularly a skulk) kills a Marine and NS displays a skull and not a bite or leap?
the consensus about 1.03 was that it favored marines, but it didn't become obvious till fairly recently. i think we need to give 1.04 some more time.
as for team work: i'd say both aliens and marines need a lot of team work, but it's different for either.
aliens are in a way more individual because they have no comm and they can choose upgrades mostly individually. the drawback is that it's more difficult to organize the team, the advantage is that -through good team work- the aliens can make more combos of classes and upgrades, where marines are fairly limited (marines have other advantages). using the right combo in a given situation can give a decisive advantage.
ie marines have nothing like umbra nor anything like webs (when used in offense or active defense), but those require good teamwork by the aliens.
there's no comm to dictate what to do, aliens somehow have to reach agreement about what to and how to do it.
1. Marines have only 1 start point always the same, not like the Aliens which have 3 random points.
2. Phase gates and movement chambers, phase gates can used by Marines and Aliens but movement chambers cannot be used by Marines.
3. Hitboxes, I have not noticed any special hitbox on a skulk, but on a Marine if a skulk does a jump/bite it almost certain death for a Marine, aka headshot.
4.Sensory chamber, well most of the servers I have played on, it is the last special chamber to be built. It has no external features like the defence chamber and movement chamber. Maybe incorporate a disorientating effect if a Marine comes close to it and/or provide infra red type sight when Aliens are near it(when the flashlight toggle is on).
Marines go for hive, alien goes for hive, alien gets fades, own marines and get 3rd hive,
rines loose
i posted about this before but admins struck it down :O
anywho, aliens > rines by far imo..
Ego
Apparently he isn't taking it like a man, and decided to come share his views to the board.
Thus its a useless futile argument.
Just leave the poor man alone to wallow in his inept attitude.
He will learn to play, or move on.
What else can you say?
::sentry::
Marines go for hive, alien goes for hive, alien gets fades, own marines and get 3rd hive,
rines loose
i posted about this before but admins struck it down :O
anywho, aliens > rines by far imo..
Ego <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines begin with 100 ressources, with this they can do lot of things (protect, upgrade, expand, nodes...)!!!
Aliens begin with ~13 ressources each, just anough to be gorge. they can't protect their hive!!! At the begining the aliens are very weak if you aggress them. Of course if you let them jump all around the map and make all they want, you loose, it's logical.
The issue of the game, is to control the game!!! If you d'ont control the game, if you let the oppponents make all they want, you gonna loose (that's true for the 2 sides!).
There's no location-specific damage in NS, for either team. You're just getting pre-wounded marines <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The SC can "see" enemies and parasite them if they touch it. It also says "The enemy is apporaching." by the hive mind.
"Well if that is the case, then WHY is there alwayds a line-up to join the marine team? Do these people enjoy losing?"
Usually I get no response. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
While the game most certainly favours the marines, you have to take into account that when you pit a bad marine team against a good alien team, the alien team WILL win.
That doesn't make the game balanced though... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
Every single game I have joined in the past 5 days I have started playing again, the marines have always outnumbered the aliens. Every single time, mostly by a margin of 3. Often though its more than that, with a difference of 5 or so. What pisses me off is when servers set their mp_autoconcede to some **** number like 7, so obviously stacked teams are allowed to play out.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to read further than this. You are obviously playing on a larger server (I'd guess 12v12?). As has been pointed out several times, ns is balanced only at the 6v6-9v9 range. If the marines manages to loose larger server games, the aliens must have been much, much better than the marines. At 12v12 or bigger, the only thing that can help the aliens is a noob commander.
Hint: play smaller servers if you want aliens to have an even break. At the designed-for server sizes, ns is very well balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah yes. I was unaware of this. No wonder everyone in the thread seemed so perplexed.. they must stick to the smaller servers... personally I find the bigger ones more fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
thanks for clearing that up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This explains a lot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There's a reason why CAL is 6v6. Try some smaller servers, the game is much more intense and focused. I've tried some 12v12, it's an unorganized nightmare. Also, try to play in servers were there are more clan members (of any clan). While it's not always the case, generally if someone is in a clan it means they meet some sort of semblance of quality (in their ability). It's not always the case, I've seen clanless people totally destroy clan members, but I think as a very very general rule it holds.
1.04 has made marine upgrades and structures more costly and weaker, and sieges are no longer godly.
as a skulk i can kill one turret easily then run off to heal, assuming there are not five more turrets shooting at me, or quite often there is a blind spot from which to bite the TF.
perhaps now the teams are balanced, assuming a clan match with an extremely proficient commander and marines who follow orders and aliens that know what they are doing.
-----however--------
i play public servers, there is VERY rarely a proficient commander or marines who follow orders. i have played about 16 1.04 games and seen marines win ONE. that one game they had 7 players to our four. even if NS is now perfectly balanced for clan matches with high skill, surely if public servers cannot have decent games the number of new players will deminish and the game will die off, i dont want to see that happen this soon, something should be done to help out the not-elite class of players!
i enjoy palying aliens and severely owning the marines, cuz winning is fun, but then i feel bad and want to play them, but they never win! maybe i should find other servers ? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, when the marines are all truely skilled, with a good comm and all stick together and use teamplay, they usually win. There's a sort of curve for NS. At the very low end of teamplay/skill, the aliens usually win. At the medium it's pretty equal, and at the top end the marines almost always win.
From what I've read in posts by developers, they tend to agree with that (even though the imbalance isn't really HUGE, the fact is that 4 round clan matches almost always end in a tie - 2 marine wins for each side) and are attempting to very slowly balance it. Which is great.
1.04 was a big step in the right direction, in my mind at least.
Oh, and Harpoon.. A bit more on why larger servers are imbalanced.
There are THREE main reasons.
1. Marines vastly outspawn the aliens, they can essentially just over run them and win.
2. The resource model. With so many players, the gorge(s) have VERY slow res coming in.
3. Marines gain power exponetially by each player, rather then the basically multiplying of each extra alien player.
As soon as the phase is down, we all go for the TF, sure it's going to hurt with the turrets firing at you. But with your whole team attacking it and having the phase down, the TF will go down pretty fast.
I think that games are not really decided already if the Marines have 2 hives guarded. Aliens lose because the players are not willing to fight together. Often the skulks will wander off by themselves, only to get killed by upgraded LMGs. (which hurts a lot) If the skulks are willing to work together, turrets won't mean much. The hard part is KEEPING the hive location defended.
Another note on JPers, I only think they are effective in maps with a really big open area. (ex. Refinery hive and Viaduct hive, on maps I can't remember) I remember being a fade and how annoying it was trying to shoot down a marine flying all over the place.
And i saw how the game is balance!!!
I'm with the aliens, and i'll gorge at the begin our first hive was data core.
We take archiving (with little fights). The 2 teams are very composite strong guys, newbies and etc...
At this point we destroy all the marine base (not me, i'm the gorge remember <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ). But marines move their base at the ressource higher than holoroom. then they resist a lot (i think they upgrade their weapons at this point)...
I continue my work of gorge and take the third hive!!!!
But at the same time, the marines capt the strat?gic point near data core (you know the point with one TF you can place 2 siege and shoot ventilation and data core)... First they destroy data core, then ventilation.... (Yeah they don't loose, we've got 3 hive but they don't loose!!).
At this point, we think we're loosing, but we resist, attack, attack and attack the strategic point... but they now got HA/HMG... and they build just near archiving (teleport + TF) with 3 HA/HMG. We resist at all, we push them out of the hive. and during this time, a gorge go to datacore and rebuild it...
With chance i found a weakpoint on their strategic point, we destroy the tf, and the teleport. and attack there base. destroy it. THE END....
So marines resist against 3 hives. Aliens resist against HA/HMG. The teams are pretty good (not clan teams, but not newbie team)....
And you say it's unbalance.... rrrhhh... resist...
So how did you came to this conclusion? Every game you played the balance in terms of number of players, player skill, teamwork and map layout was totally even?
Unless things were totally balanced to begin with, I can't see how you determined things were inbalanced overall.