If sensory is first, I just lave the server, let em get on with it. They will be minus one player with sensory. If you think about it, the beginning of the game is all about securing a second hive or a point on the map which leads to a hive. The marines will be doing the same thing, so sitting around cloaked is not going to help, if the marines move into a hive area, cloak is not going to help you attack them, its not going to help you remove their presence. Scent of fear may though, so it isnt as bad. DMS is tried and tested, it always gives the aliens a great advantage. Its not about being scared of change its about wanting to win. The only time imo that sens will work is in a clan match where there is plenty of comunication and organisation within the alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--InfraRed+Feb 20 2003, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (InfraRed @ Feb 20 2003, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If sensory is first, I just lave the server, let em get on with it. They will be minus one player with sensory. If you think about it, the beginning of the game is all about securing a second hive or a point on the map which leads to a hive. The marines will be doing the same thing, so sitting around cloaked is not going to help, if the marines move into a hive area, cloak is not going to help you attack them, its not going to help you remove their presence. Scent of fear may though, so it isnt as bad. DMS is tried and tested, it always gives the aliens a great advantage. Its not about being scared of change its about wanting to win. The only time imo that sens will work is in a clan match where there is plenty of comunication and organisation within the alien team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would agree the way Sensory works on normal NS servers. However, our sensory chambers r0x0rs!
The idea behind sensory's cloaking is "Preventative Strike". So with cloaking, marines shouldn't be able to set up anywhere because of the cloaked skulks keeping them sinside their base and at key points.
Hehehe..the age old argument. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Defense vs Sens/Mov first...
I admin a server and have seen my fair share of gorge lamers. As someone said earlier, this is only half the story. Screaming admin abuse, because this guy says he has been wronged is naive. Many times if you look into these stories, it soon becomes clear that other issues were involved. I was reading a post from someone trying to be unbanned from a server today (in CS). He says, I came on and accidently tk'ed someone, plz unban me. It ends up he came on, openly ridiculed all the rules of the server, argued with the admins, then unloaded a full clip into the admins back in spawn. Funny, these two stories sound very different, dont they.
I agree with others that its a team decision as to what chamber should be built first. There are times on our server when the team has agreed to sensory first. Because it was a consensus decision, nobody gets shouted down or abused. The comparison between the shotguns and hmgs is a very poor analogy, btw. There is no comparison between the commander and the gorge. It seems to me the two teams have been deliberatly designed to be distinctly different in their gameplay. One is a static team with no central command and the other is a dynamic team with central command. I quite like this feature of the game as it seems to emphasise the 'alienness'.
The 'neato' features mentioned for the voogru server just made me NOT want to go there...hehehe...as I dislike playing modified versions of the game.
With regards to sensory first. I enjoy it as a change, occassionally. Against any decent marine side however its not THE winning strategy. People go with defense for a reason. You know you have more chance of winning. The argument has been going on for ages..I think the D chamber supporters have clearly won the argument. The ambush strategy falls flat on its face, if the marines are phasing directly between the marine base and the hive/outpost. The ability to skulk rush a turreted position is diminished greatly without carapace. Sensory is good if the aliens dominate from the start, in which case its not sensory that helped them, but purely the difference in skill levels/teamwork between the two sides. Having sensory just made it more fun for the aliens. Given high skill levels on both teams, its a risky strategy. Its like the gorge rush. A dominant alien side can quite easily wipe out an unskilled marine team by all going gorge, rushing marine base and just heal spraying them to death. We were all aware the marines had no teamwork/skills the other night and had 5 of us as gorges, right from the start, and a couple of skulks to take out structures. It was all too easy. Had we spotted a large group of regular players on the marine side, we would have never done so. The same goes with building sensory/movement first, its very much dependant on the quality of the individual teams. Judging that comes with experience and knowledge, which is map dependant, server dependant, player dependant, luck dependant. Hence some guy coming onto the server with no idea of what he is up against and deciding that sensory is the go, is not really in a situation to make that judgement.
Wow, there's actually a lot of people here that don't mind sensory first...where were you guys in the Kharaa strategy when we got the 10 page posts about a few *certain* people absolutely bashing sensory and movement...
Winning is everything, and having an interesting or fun experience is secondary. This seems to be the dominant argument here. Bleh.
As far as there being no comparison between gorge and commander, well, that's purely subjective at best; I happen to think there's a lot that matches up. One of each, they hand out upgrades and gear, the loss of one has a severe effect on the other team, they are the main sort of authority of tech direction, and so on. Just because one doesn't sit in a command chair and get called Lieutenant doesn't make him in less of a leadership roll. It's just more distributed on his team, which was our intention when the game was made.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Feb 20 2003, 05:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 20 2003, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Winning is everything, and having an interesting or fun experience is secondary. This seems to be the dominant argument here. Bleh. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a knock on you, but seriously isn't winning the ultimate goal of most games (this one included)? And I, for one, have MUCH more fun winning rather than losing.
Now that's not to say it's impossible to win if you don't start with defense chambers. I agree that movement and sensory chamber provide you with some fun and useful upgrades. And I completely agree that it is great to try new things, it makes the game much more fun and interesting.
I just feel that the defense chamber gives you a huge competitive advantage - if you don't have them, the only way to heal aliens and buildings in the field is from a gorge, carapace is VERY strong, the new redemption and regenerations upgrades are great.
The new cloaking is much weaker (I find it fairly easy to see the new partial-cloak), the new silence is weaker (can be tracked by motion), and since movement chambers only take you to other hives, having movement chambers with only one hive is not really the greatest. I do love celerity and it is a huge advantage, but in choosing between lvl 3 celerity and lvl 3 carapace, carapace wins in my book.
I prefer defense not because it's the "accepted" thing but because I feel that defense chambers are tactically better for the team, both because of the upgrades offered and because of their healing function.
I do love reading these threads, for the arguments in support of other chambers. I wish I could see a little more variety with alien upgrades, instead of defense-movement. I really enjoy playing NS and I'm greatly looking forward to the changes hinted at in 1.1
SHOOT YOU. Those who do not change become extinct. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Learn some basic skulking techniques:
1. <u>AMBUSH</u> Ambushing is GOD. even if they do have motion tracking, it is still possable to scare the begeezus outta marines. Once in CS i hid behind the doors closest to the bomb site in de_aztec. i was out of sight of the last CT, and once i heard the tell-tale sign of the "Defusing" sound, i moved in and took him out. Ts win.
2. <u>MOVEMENT</u> Strafing isn't just good for "Looking around the corner" it can save your arse. Marines who are CIRCLE STRAFING you will expect that you are going to be in the middle of the circle; but if you Strafe out of *his* "circle" you are now on the outside, and can circle strafe HIM. Jump + Strafing when aproching a marine on the end of a loooong hall will save you especially if you throw in some wall-walking too.
3. <u>BEZERKING</u> "Jumping in there" isn't a good idea; making a careful examination of marine "Dances" and plotting what will happen in certain situations will save you. Want to know how that ninja defeated all those baddies for all but the other ninja that killed him? He planned it all, for all but that one part when the other ninja showed up. His life ended when he had thought in battle of what to do next. You dont sit and think when there are 4+ guns pointed at you, now, do you? Didn't think so, since all that lead has already killed you.
1 Pertains to Sensory, and it's unique ability to increase Ambushing abilities. 2 Pertains to Movement, since getting down that hallway faster or shooting more attacks off will save you often. 3 Pertains to the over-used Defence chamber. More armor, regen abilities, or getting teleported from the battle are all too important to pass up, since who wants to be a clothed combatant when you can have Kevlar or Full-body armor? Also, to add to this the way to live longer in combat is also too useful. Who wants to take 2-5 hits and die (DoD comes to mind...) when you could take twice as many, or maybe more hits befor you go down?
The only problem is that too many peope are engraned that "More armor = better" ever since DooM, Quake 1+2, and Duke Nukem 3D. Self-healing, high armor, or instant-recall befor death are all too powerful a tool for the Kharaa to lose out on, which is why so many people throw a hissy-fit when they dont get that nice Battle armor (Carapace), medic pack(Regeneration), or on-site transporter(Redemption)...
Which is probably why the admin banned you. S/he had a hissy-fit. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ro something.
Not to mention 1 and 2 are quite borring, or are borring for the majority of time; with movement you cant go in, kick major butt, and go back out to self heal, now you have to run back to the hive or nearest gorge. Or with sensory you have to sit in place for quite awhile befor a marine comes along.
Nothing, you should read what you quote. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or with sensory you have to sit in place for quite awhile befor a marine comes along... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me finish that sentance for you..
....comes along with a JP and HWG's your hive because you couldnt raid the marines labs with no carapace.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And I bet you've tried them, haven't you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes of course i have, they dont work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> SHOOT YOU. Those who do not change become extinct. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do i need to adapt, evolution is survival of the fittest - unfortunately sensory is the zoological equivalent of the dodo.
I am not the blind one here.The blind people are those who insist that in its present form sensory is viable given a change of aliens tactics.
It isnt.
If you guys really wanted to do something useful why not admit there is a problem and suggest ideas to improve the balance in future patches. I have about things that i feel are important, but the mammoths clinging onto the idea that sensory first is anything other than a pointless amusing diversion may miss their chance.
i've got a few things to add here. when i'm the gorge, whatever i choose is going down. with or without the team's consent. if they don't like it. they can leave. i usually opt for movement first, because it works with the way i play. most marine teams won't have motion tracking before the second hive is up, making silence great for skulks to get around the map. celerity comboed with mad-jumping for myself to help me get out of the way of any marine that attempts to ambush me. before i get the hive up, i put down one or two movement chambers at each hive, so if a group of marines jumps me while i'm saving for the second, i can take the movement chamber out.
banning the gorge for not being a **** is a sign of admin abuse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes of course i have, they dont work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the greatest strategy game of all time, Chess, it is considered impolite to hang on tooth and nail to the actual checkmate when you have clearly lost. You concede and move on to the next game, and stop wasting both players' time.
I don't understand people who claim arbitrarly giving themselves handicaps in a multiplayer game is a fun thing. This phenomenom isn't limited to NS either, it's very widespread on a lot of different game boards.
I want to stack the odds in my team's favor as much as possible, because I expect the opposing team to do exact same thing. Then we'll duke it out in small skirmishes and battles of epic proportions, trying to outsmart and outplay each other until the best wins. This is the heart and soul of competitive multiplayer play, and it also happens to be immensely fun. Not "let's shoot my team in the foot by going sensory first and spite my teammates just for the sake of being different."
Besides, if all 3 chambers were truly equally viable early choices, why did Flayra make it a point to make them all equally viable in 1.1?
Also, a leader that does the complete opposite of what his team wants, especially when he goes to the point of **** most of them off, will quickly find himself with a mutiny on his hands. He'll get ejected, banned, or everyone will F4. Essentially, because he was stubborn, he ruined the game.
Besides, why do YOU care whether you get sensory or defense? You're the GORGE, you are NOT FIGHTING. If the majority of the skulks, those who will be doing the fighting, ask you for defense instead of sensory because they want carapace, and not cloak, why should you deny them? It doesn't change a damn thing to you whether you go one way or another, so why get sensory anyway? To **** them off?
When I gorge and my entire team asks for sensory first, THEN I GET SENSORY FIRST, even when I know it's an inferior first choice to defense. Of course while I'm waiting for resources I'll try to convince them otherwise, but if I fail, I will heed their request because it directly affects them, not me. If we lose (or should I say "when we lose"?) I will tell them "I told you so."
In general, if I'm ever in major disagreement with my teammates and I can't convince them to do something I deem acceptable, then I will just LEAVE AND FIND ANOTHER SERVER WITH MORE LIKE-MINDED PLAYERS. I won't go out of my way to **** an entire team off, unlike some people.
<!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Feb 20 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Feb 20 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you were told not to make sensory by your team and still made it i would ban you instantly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ditto.
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> people like you that make up your own rules for games totaly ruin the bloody game for everyone, THIS MOD ROCKS we dont need stupid idiots that complain about everything playing, why dont u go f*^& off and play cs.
if ns only involved shooting and walking i bet ppl like rebo and stuff would ban you for shooting.
dude play on optus server u dont get banned for anything STUPID, if its alowed in the game its alowed in the server exept of rhacking of course, optus is pretty good, if your in aus i guess.
well anyway i feel for the dude that got banned, dun worry about it man PPL=****!
Sensory is a valid tatic as a first build... and that "The enemy aproaches" message can be used to great effect to block the likely seige locations around your first hive... or even the second hive location....
As for the origional topic, sensory is a valid build, even if I dont like it, banning someone for building a sensory tower is abuse of admins privliages, banning someone for offensive behavour is a different matter, if someone tries something different give it a go, hell as a marine commander I often try different stratergies, and some of them suck... I hate to be banned for not phase rushing a hive..
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Of course.. considering that phase rushes are a LOT harder to pull off in 1.04, that seems to make little difference.
The big thing that people seem to miss: The Commander is in charge of tactics. He decides the upgrade path, weapons available, and when they come down, who gets them. They are a gestalt being.. the grunts are simply extensions of the Commander's will. Trust the Comm. Love the Comm. Mother brain.. er... the Comm loves you, and so long as you follow orders, whether you win or lose is entirely up to him.
Aliens, on the other hand, are more of a republic. They do not have an appointed leader, so the team's tactics need to be handled by consensus. If your WHOLE team, except YOU wants DCs, and you drop a SC, you are violating that arrangement. You have gone against the will of the citizen body, not only implicitly, but flagrantly. You have STUCK them with your choice, for better or worse, until THEY can take a second Hive. If they're the ones fighting, the ones dying while you hide back and build yourself a pretty tower of OCs, they REALLY should be the ones to decide what they're going to be fighting WITH. The Gorge who would be King. King Louis got the guillotine. King Gorgy-porgy gets the ban. Seems equitable, given the natures.. one a real death, the other a virtual. Both saying, "Your actions were reprehensible. They did not bear the greater good in mind. Goodbye."
i admin several servers and try to keep the game as fun as possible for the majority. face it, defense is the standard, and if you plan on dropping movement or sensory first, i would usually like to know in advance. the analogy was made that if a commander dropped shotguns instead of hmgs, would you ban him? currently there is no method implemented into the game allowing you to "eject" the gorge so the 2 cannot be quite compared like that. you dont see people go gorge, drop a d chamber, and leave to try and hurt the team. however you do see someone go gorge, and drop a sens chamber and quit. its not just that they built a sens tower that is bothersome, its that they are PURPOSELY sabotaging the team. i have not met one person who says "oh hey guys i just felt like mixing it up, i thought it would be cool, lets have some fun" after building a sens at the beginning of the game. what i am accustomed to hearing is "hehe have fun guys!" and then the gorge leaves. i have been in a game where we had a gorge who was a regular on the server, when some guy goes gorge, and builds sensories ON res nozzles, so we cant build resources near our hive OR have a choice besides sensory. im sorry but i banned him. i try and run mature servers for mature players who enjoy playing the game as a team. if you are a lamer and get banned from my servers: there are many servers out there tailored to noobs, i try to run servers free of lamers intentionally sabotoging the game. flame me if you want, but they are MY servers. i can run them how i wish, you dont have to play on them. people are free to build sens or move first, and it happens, just make sure your team is cool with it, dont build a sens because you want a sens, and no one else wants one. be a team player.
God, admins always get the short end of the stick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You didn't mean "short end"...did ya?! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I didn't even read it correctly at first, I read it as you'd say it to a friend, not dumbed down for the forums <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Oh, you do. You get the tactic of typing 'say "F4ing to restart the round, we had a griefer drop Sense."', and not dealing with having a sound whooping from any Marine team who can find their hindquarters with both hands, a mirror, and a copy of Gray's.
Saying sensory is viable is just like saying make 10 turrets in marine spawn before you leave. Sure it might work versus newbs but its a obsolete and stupid way to start the game. I just honestly cant believe there are people with hundreds of posts who dont see a serious and crippling problem with sensory and to a lesser extent movement first.
For the OH|SO|LEET people saying sensory is valid, tell me how you deal with this, marines grab 1 RP tech to JP then lmg rush your hive (which has little healing). Oh whats that...
I think you'd be foolish to go sensory first, but if that's the way it goes, then that's the way it goes. I wouldn't expect someone to be banned for <i>just</i> that. Usually the alien team won't make their position clear because DMS/1 gorge is the standard tactic now. Make sure to ask if they want sensory first, because the "default" is defense.
----
You can win with sensory first - unless the marines catch on, and get motion tracking. Motion tracking wipes out pretty much <i>any</i> chance you have of setting up ambushes. The <i>slightest</i> movement lights up on the marines' view. Only the careless or cocky marine will forget your last position. That makes it pretty hard to impossible to establish a second hive against a decent team, which means game over.
Defense chambers are the only ones with which you stand a fighting chance against MT. Which is sad, because cloaking was one of the coolest things back in the initial release. Alongside silence (although silence isn't as adversely affected), nowadays it's fairly redundant.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Well.. actually you can counter that. If you know when they're researching MT, rush their base and kill the obs. 70RP down the drain. Thing is, there's no indicator, and you don't have carapace to stand up to the base defenders. So you REALLY have to have a huge amount of teamwork going on.. some distracting, others eating the obs, or just everyone rushing to chomp the obs, taking down any Marines they can on the way.
You obviously play on newbie servers Ackz, every good player knows carapace is for the unskilled who arent good enough to use advanced hive site to singlehandedly win whilst simultaneuosly standing on their heads and singing the latest Britney spears single. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
I would agree the way Sensory works on normal NS servers. However, our sensory chambers r0x0rs!
<a href='http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?threadid=1714' target='_blank'>http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?threadid=1714</a>
I admin a server and have seen my fair share of gorge lamers. As someone said earlier, this is only half the story. Screaming admin abuse, because this guy says he has been wronged is naive. Many times if you look into these stories, it soon becomes clear that other issues were involved. I was reading a post from someone trying to be unbanned from a server today (in CS). He says, I came on and accidently tk'ed someone, plz unban me. It ends up he came on, openly ridiculed all the rules of the server, argued with the admins, then unloaded a full clip into the admins back in spawn. Funny, these two stories sound very different, dont they.
I agree with others that its a team decision as to what chamber should be built first. There are times on our server when the team has agreed to sensory first. Because it was a consensus decision, nobody gets shouted down or abused. The comparison between the shotguns and hmgs is a very poor analogy, btw. There is no comparison between the commander and the gorge. It seems to me the two teams have been deliberatly designed to be distinctly different in their gameplay. One is a static team with no central command and the other is a dynamic team with central command. I quite like this feature of the game as it seems to emphasise the 'alienness'.
The 'neato' features mentioned for the voogru server just made me NOT want to go there...hehehe...as I dislike playing modified versions of the game.
With regards to sensory first. I enjoy it as a change, occassionally. Against any decent marine side however its not THE winning strategy. People go with defense for a reason. You know you have more chance of winning. The argument has been going on for ages..I think the D chamber supporters have clearly won the argument. The ambush strategy falls flat on its face, if the marines are phasing directly between the marine base and the hive/outpost. The ability to skulk rush a turreted position is diminished greatly without carapace. Sensory is good if the aliens dominate from the start, in which case its not sensory that helped them, but purely the difference in skill levels/teamwork between the two sides. Having sensory just made it more fun for the aliens. Given high skill levels on both teams, its a risky strategy. Its like the gorge rush. A dominant alien side can quite easily wipe out an unskilled marine team by all going gorge, rushing marine base and just heal spraying them to death. We were all aware the marines had no teamwork/skills the other night and had 5 of us as gorges, right from the start, and a couple of skulks to take out structures. It was all too easy. Had we spotted a large group of regular players on the marine side, we would have never done so. The same goes with building sensory/movement first, its very much dependant on the quality of the individual teams. Judging that comes with experience and knowledge, which is map dependant, server dependant, player dependant, luck dependant. Hence some guy coming onto the server with no idea of what he is up against and deciding that sensory is the go, is not really in a situation to make that judgement.
Bah, I'm rambling...better finish off. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As far as there being no comparison between gorge and commander, well, that's purely subjective at best; I happen to think there's a lot that matches up. One of each, they hand out upgrades and gear, the loss of one has a severe effect on the other team, they are the main sort of authority of tech direction, and so on. Just because one doesn't sit in a command chair and get called Lieutenant doesn't make him in less of a leadership roll. It's just more distributed on his team, which was our intention when the game was made.
Not a knock on you, but seriously isn't winning the ultimate goal of most games (this one included)? And I, for one, have MUCH more fun winning rather than losing.
Now that's not to say it's impossible to win if you don't start with defense chambers. I agree that movement and sensory chamber provide you with some fun and useful upgrades. And I completely agree that it is great to try new things, it makes the game much more fun and interesting.
I just feel that the defense chamber gives you a huge competitive advantage - if you don't have them, the only way to heal aliens and buildings in the field is from a gorge, carapace is VERY strong, the new redemption and regenerations upgrades are great.
The new cloaking is much weaker (I find it fairly easy to see the new partial-cloak), the new silence is weaker (can be tracked by motion), and since movement chambers only take you to other hives, having movement chambers with only one hive is not really the greatest. I do love celerity and it is a huge advantage, but in choosing between lvl 3 celerity and lvl 3 carapace, carapace wins in my book.
I prefer defense not because it's the "accepted" thing but because I feel that defense chambers are tactically better for the team, both because of the upgrades offered and because of their healing function.
I do love reading these threads, for the arguments in support of other chambers. I wish I could see a little more variety with alien upgrades, instead of defense-movement. I really enjoy playing NS and I'm greatly looking forward to the changes hinted at in 1.1
SHOOT YOU. Those who do not change become extinct. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Learn some basic skulking techniques:
1. <u>AMBUSH</u>
Ambushing is GOD. even if they do have motion tracking, it is still possable to scare the begeezus outta marines. Once in CS i hid behind the doors closest to the bomb site in de_aztec. i was out of sight of the last CT, and once i heard the tell-tale sign of the "Defusing" sound, i moved in and took him out. Ts win.
2. <u>MOVEMENT</u>
Strafing isn't just good for "Looking around the corner" it can save your arse. Marines who are CIRCLE STRAFING you will expect that you are going to be in the middle of the circle; but if you Strafe out of *his* "circle" you are now on the outside, and can circle strafe HIM. Jump + Strafing when aproching a marine on the end of a loooong hall will save you especially if you throw in some wall-walking too.
3. <u>BEZERKING</u>
"Jumping in there" isn't a good idea; making a careful examination of marine "Dances" and plotting what will happen in certain situations will save you. Want to know how that ninja defeated all those baddies for all but the other ninja that killed him? He planned it all, for all but that one part when the other ninja showed up. His life ended when he had thought in battle of what to do next. You dont sit and think when there are 4+ guns pointed at you, now, do you? Didn't think so, since all that lead has already killed you.
1 Pertains to Sensory, and it's unique ability to increase Ambushing abilities.
2 Pertains to Movement, since getting down that hallway faster or shooting more attacks off will save you often.
3 Pertains to the over-used Defence chamber. More armor, regen abilities, or getting teleported from the battle are all too important to pass up, since who wants to be a clothed combatant when you can have Kevlar or Full-body armor? Also, to add to this the way to live longer in combat is also too useful. Who wants to take 2-5 hits and die (DoD comes to mind...) when you could take twice as many, or maybe more hits befor you go down?
The only problem is that too many peope are engraned that "More armor = better" ever since DooM, Quake 1+2, and Duke Nukem 3D. Self-healing, high armor, or instant-recall befor death are all too powerful a tool for the Kharaa to lose out on, which is why so many people throw a hissy-fit when they dont get that nice Battle armor (Carapace), medic pack(Regeneration), or on-site transporter(Redemption)...
Which is probably why the admin banned you. S/he had a hissy-fit. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ro something.
Not to mention 1 and 2 are quite borring, or are borring for the majority of time; with movement you cant go in, kick major butt, and go back out to self heal, now you have to run back to the hive or nearest gorge. Or with sensory you have to sit in place for quite awhile befor a marine comes along.
Or with sensory you have to sit in place for quite awhile befor a marine comes along...
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Let me finish that sentance for you..
....comes along with a JP and HWG's your hive because you couldnt raid the marines labs with no carapace.
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And I bet you've tried them, haven't you?
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Yes of course i have, they dont work.
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SHOOT YOU. Those who do not change become extinct.
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Why do i need to adapt, evolution is survival of the fittest - unfortunately sensory is the zoological equivalent of the dodo.
I am not the blind one here.The blind people are those who insist that in its present form sensory is viable given a change of aliens tactics.
It isnt.
If you guys really wanted to do something useful why not admit there is a problem and suggest ideas to improve the balance in future patches. I have about things that i feel are important, but the mammoths clinging onto the idea that sensory first is anything other than a pointless amusing diversion may miss their chance.
Roll on 1.1.
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banning the gorge for not being a **** is a sign of admin abuse.
<@MonsE|IronChefPR> word
monse is my new hero
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Poor guy. Never had a sensory victory.
I want to stack the odds in my team's favor as much as possible, because I expect the opposing team to do exact same thing. Then we'll duke it out in small skirmishes and battles of epic proportions, trying to outsmart and outplay each other until the best wins. This is the heart and soul of competitive multiplayer play, and it also happens to be immensely fun. Not "let's shoot my team in the foot by going sensory first and spite my teammates just for the sake of being different."
Besides, if all 3 chambers were truly equally viable early choices, why did Flayra make it a point to make them all equally viable in 1.1?
Also, a leader that does the complete opposite of what his team wants, especially when he goes to the point of **** most of them off, will quickly find himself with a mutiny on his hands. He'll get ejected, banned, or everyone will F4. Essentially, because he was stubborn, he ruined the game.
Besides, why do YOU care whether you get sensory or defense? You're the GORGE, you are NOT FIGHTING. If the majority of the skulks, those who will be doing the fighting, ask you for defense instead of sensory because they want carapace, and not cloak, why should you deny them? It doesn't change a damn thing to you whether you go one way or another, so why get sensory anyway? To **** them off?
When I gorge and my entire team asks for sensory first, THEN I GET SENSORY FIRST, even when I know it's an inferior first choice to defense. Of course while I'm waiting for resources I'll try to convince them otherwise, but if I fail, I will heed their request because it directly affects them, not me. If we lose (or should I say "when we lose"?) I will tell them "I told you so."
In general, if I'm ever in major disagreement with my teammates and I can't convince them to do something I deem acceptable, then I will just LEAVE AND FIND ANOTHER SERVER WITH MORE LIKE-MINDED PLAYERS. I won't go out of my way to **** an entire team off, unlike some people.
ditto.
guess Im a jerk too.
if ns only involved shooting and walking i bet ppl like rebo and stuff would ban you for shooting.
dude play on optus server u dont get banned for anything STUPID, if its alowed in the game its alowed in the server exept of rhacking of course, optus is pretty good, if your in aus i guess.
well anyway i feel for the dude that got banned, dun worry about it man PPL=****!
Sensory is a valid tatic as a first build... and that "The enemy aproaches" message can be used to great effect to block the likely seige locations around your first hive... or even the second hive location....
As for the origional topic, sensory is a valid build, even if I dont like it, banning someone for building a sensory tower is abuse of admins privliages, banning someone for offensive behavour is a different matter, if someone tries something different give it a go, hell as a marine commander I often try different stratergies, and some of them suck... I hate to be banned for not phase rushing a hive..
Bart
The big thing that people seem to miss: The Commander is in charge of tactics. He decides the upgrade path, weapons available, and when they come down, who gets them. They are a gestalt being.. the grunts are simply extensions of the Commander's will. Trust the Comm. Love the Comm. Mother brain.. er... the Comm loves you, and so long as you follow orders, whether you win or lose is entirely up to him.
Aliens, on the other hand, are more of a republic. They do not have an appointed leader, so the team's tactics need to be handled by consensus. If your WHOLE team, except YOU wants DCs, and you drop a SC, you are violating that arrangement. You have gone against the will of the citizen body, not only implicitly, but flagrantly. You have STUCK them with your choice, for better or worse, until THEY can take a second Hive. If they're the ones fighting, the ones dying while you hide back and build yourself a pretty tower of OCs, they REALLY should be the ones to decide what they're going to be fighting WITH.
The Gorge who would be King.
King Louis got the guillotine. King Gorgy-porgy gets the ban. Seems equitable, given the natures.. one a real death, the other a virtual. Both saying, "Your actions were reprehensible. They did not bear the greater good in mind. Goodbye."
God, admins always get the short end of the stick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't mean "short end"...did ya?! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I didn't even read it correctly at first, I read it as you'd say it to a friend, not dumbed down for the forums <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dont like Sensory the way it is. I certainly wouldnt drop one as the first upgrade.
But squealing and wailing and gnashing your teeth and banning someone for doing it is PATHETIC.
Here's a new one for ya: How about you guys learn some new bloody tactics?
For the OH|SO|LEET people saying sensory is valid, tell me how you deal with this, marines grab 1 RP tech to JP then lmg rush your hive (which has little healing). Oh whats that...
you cant.
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You can win with sensory first - unless the marines catch on, and get motion tracking. Motion tracking wipes out pretty much <i>any</i> chance you have of setting up ambushes. The <i>slightest</i> movement lights up on the marines' view. Only the careless or cocky marine will forget your last position. That makes it pretty hard to impossible to establish a second hive against a decent team, which means game over.
Defense chambers are the only ones with which you stand a fighting chance against MT. Which is sad, because cloaking was one of the coolest things back in the initial release. Alongside silence (although silence isn't as adversely affected), nowadays it's fairly redundant.
They have no DC's and no lerks the hive will go down to LMG fire.