Something About "the" Tactic
Stoneburg
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
<div class="IPBDescription">JP+HMG rush that is</div> Now... there's a whole bunch of posts about how the JP+HMG rush is over-powered etc. People that have been playing since 1.0 seem to think that there has been one "overpowered" strat for every patch.
The sieges.
The 2-hive lockdown. Phase Gates.
JP+HMG rush.
So what I am thinking is... what has changed since 1.03, or 1.02 for that matter? Well, sieges have been nerfed as has phasegates. But... what has been done to the JP's and HMG's? Anything? I don't think so (HMG *might* have cost 27 earlier, can't remember).
Anyway, my point is, if this strategy is over-powered/broken it has been so all the time. Were the previous strats "more" broken or did people really not figure out how to do a JP rush before 1.04?
If we look at the history it seems logical to assume that with the next patch yet another strat will turn up/be invented that is "broken" or over-powered and nerfs will be demanded. Anyone want to wager a guess on what it will be?
Ps. My personal opinion on the JP+HMG rush is that it is a *bit* too easy to accomplish, but not much. The real problem is (as everyone knows) the resource model.
The sieges.
The 2-hive lockdown. Phase Gates.
JP+HMG rush.
So what I am thinking is... what has changed since 1.03, or 1.02 for that matter? Well, sieges have been nerfed as has phasegates. But... what has been done to the JP's and HMG's? Anything? I don't think so (HMG *might* have cost 27 earlier, can't remember).
Anyway, my point is, if this strategy is over-powered/broken it has been so all the time. Were the previous strats "more" broken or did people really not figure out how to do a JP rush before 1.04?
If we look at the history it seems logical to assume that with the next patch yet another strat will turn up/be invented that is "broken" or over-powered and nerfs will be demanded. Anyone want to wager a guess on what it will be?
Ps. My personal opinion on the JP+HMG rush is that it is a *bit* too easy to accomplish, but not much. The real problem is (as everyone knows) the resource model.
Comments
HA + Welder + SG ; rush
I havent seen this done yet , it would probably work out pretty good to; if lurks arnt abundant.
Whats wrong with the resource model? I havent heard anything about that.
Right now the best size game is usually a 16-18 player game as the res model then is relatively balanced between both teams. Once you get to 20 players marines have a huge advantage. Not only that, but large marine teams can kill skulks easily, and a simple lmg rush on a 24 player server can easily finish off the aliens if the marines move together and aim together.
can't wait for 1.1! there's gonna be a balanced res model! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Clan matches are 12 player games, and still often favour the marine side (Via JP/HMG). 16-18 player games with organised teams would be much more marine orientated.
Clan matches are 12 player games, and still often favour the marine side (Via JP/HMG). 16-18 player games with organised teams would be much more marine orientated. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zhang is saying resource wise 16 - 18 is balanced, which is the consenus of opinion. JP/HMG makes marines unbalanced what ever the server size.
RE: 'the' next strat, with the number of changes apparently planned for 1.1, it's pretty much impossible to guess IMO.
The JP/HMG strat has always been available, but it does have a weak point in that it requires the main base to be defended by marines/mines rather than turrets, which is why it was much easier to go for the two-hive lockdown strategy in 1.03 and earlier.
In 1.04, the weaker phase gates and the LOS requirement for sieges has made 2 hive lockdowns much harder. A mix of lvl 3 carap gorges, lerks and skulks can take down just about any base, if the aliens have good enough teamwork and the marines aren't quick enough.
in the JP/HMG world we live in, HIVE1 lockdown is more important than that second hive at first. It's a slow win, but it's a win. Get LOTSA d chamber under the hive (6+). Plenty of O and that sorta thing. Once you've got that on lockdown send your Gorge towards another hive, leave LOTSA Defensive players. Have skulks attacking marines nodes, and start getting that second hive up AFTER you've dealt with the marine threat.
Oh, and dont for get to hit marine base, you'd be amazed how often you can walk right in.
-FJ the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
X0|FJ, while most of the times the marine base -is- lightly defended, at least on Donce, we've seen phasegates in major areas, in addition to 'heavy assault commanders' (Yannow, they camp the CC with some HA and an HMG...). A good commander who's actually leading his troops could even just throw down redundant equipment wherever the largest concentration of them are. My preferred strategy is to just have my skulks hunt down the marine RNs, because they can't exactly defend them heavily AND do a JP rush. Meanwhile, I'd be making a hive.
In reality, I've almost never seen a successful JP rush. Most marines either think they have more flight time than they do, or they fly up as damn high as they can to get away from skulks and crater. Most hive positions are also fairly well guarded, excluding the 'mother' hive on nancy and Cargo Bay Foyer on Nothing.
The phase gate 2 hive lockdown is actually much harder because of the increased cost of the inf portals phase gates and decreased reliability that the phase gate will survive (3500 > 2000 hp)
JP rush isnt impossible to counter in clan matches, but it makes for truly dull public games.
But dont be mistaken - i think this game is great <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Your point that strategies are born every patch shows the variable nature of the game.
If they have anything other then:
IP(s)
Armory
Armslab
ProtoLab
Then it really isn't a JP+HMG *rush*.
Also note that if the aliens builds 6 DC's underneath one hive and have 2-3 ppl go lerk to defend against JP'ers, 2nd hive time will take a big hit, again giving the marines more time.
Tech rush/Res control leads to an early aggressive, mobile game. Can be great fun for both marines and skulks. The jetpacks is just a bit too easy to get.
However, I'd like to point out that once the JP rush is taken care of, hive 2 aliens - especially fades - will be nerfed. Or rather, would have been - 1.1 is going to lead to more of a revolution in play style rather than an evolution, from what I have read.
[...]
1.1 is going to lead to more of a revolution in play style rather than an evolution, from what I have read. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
In Clanwars, where resources and time áre very crutial, Marines have an huge advantage.
Theoretically they could already have built 2 restowers (depending on the map of course) before the Alies have their Gorge.
This advantage of time leads to an advantage of resources wich gives the Marines the oppertunity to advance through their techtree quite fast.
It requires a good team of Skulks to slow down the Marines in the beginning of the game and delaying the JP-Research... but this has bee discussed to death, so I say:
Let's await the "revolution" of NS and hope for the best.
I think most of the changes in the previous Patches made the game better and better (and I must confess that I did not understand some of them until starting playing in a Clan and not only on pubs), but I also agreee that every Patch lead to it's own "THE tactic".
It was meantioned, that this shows the versitality of NS, but that is not true... except for you wanting a new patch every month to make clans change their tactic.
With all the changes that will/might be in 1.1 it's hard to guess what the new "THE tactic" will be, but I think ther definitly WILL be a "THE tactic" (you just can't make a 100% balanced game and that's not that bad at all).
Personally I think for the Marines it will be a mix of teching and locking down chokepoints / Hives...
Not too different from what we see in clanwars now, but with all 3 types of upgrades available to LVL 1 Aliens (really hope, we get some more information about that) maybe the upgrade will be more "supporting" (MT early, Armor before Weapon) than "agressive"...
I expect clan-tectics and public-tactics to get closer to each other... Time will tell.
Oh i see. I have heard about this.. by model i thought you ment the actual 'model' like.. resource tower model. I feel stupid. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyways, now that i think about it , i realy wana try that HA SG rush. See how that goes. lol
HA + Welder + SG ; rush
I havent seen this done yet , it would probably work out pretty good to; if lurks arnt abundant.
Whats wrong with the resource model? I havent heard anything about that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 guys with shotguns will decimate a hive in under 20 secounds
iv tested this. VERY VERY effective.
Agreed. And sadly, im one of those bad marines. Mostly because i play pub servers, and most comms dont know what voice comm, or way points are for.
iv tested this. VERY VERY effective. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crap, I might be right... NERF THE SHOTGUNS!! AHHH! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
First off, they have huge damage. This is something we can't dispute. However, this damage comes from a multitude of bullets, as I'm sure we all know, making it totally and absolutely useless at any sort of distance. This means to do anything, you have to get in close.
Now, I don't know about you, but when I have no upgrades and 2 bites takes me out, that’s bad. Especially when I have a 17 resource shotgun in my hands. I'm not just an expendable grunt anymore- I’m an investment.
Ok, so. The shotgun sucks. Back on topic. Well, for it to be effective, you are gonig to want to respawn camp with it right away. This creates an all-or-nothing rush. You have everyone build IP and armory, pass out 3 shotguns, and go. You now have very little resources, blocking a quick armory.
Also, Shotguns are TOTALLY teamwork. They take so ridiculously long to reload that you need LMG marines covering you while you reload. Your pistol only does so much, like kill one skulk. In a pub the teamwork for this kind of attack would not hold, someone would do something cockless and screw it up.
Also, it assumes that the LMG marines will have dead-on aim. The shot gunners need to be right next to the hive, this means skulks respawn that their feet. This means they get owned at a rapid pace, unlike the LMG marine which can shoot repawning skulks from safely across the room. Also, you cannot set up a crossfire with a shotgun, because it pretty much relies on a 1-shot kill.
So, all in all you are going to have 3-4 guys with shotguns under the hive. Skulks will pop up, and immediately be able to chew on them. LMGs need to cover, and they need to have damn good aim. If a shotgunner is caught reloading, he is dead, because of the time involved. If the shotguns are killed in transit to the hive, and the respawn camp is never fully established, then that is a total waste of 17 or 16 or however many resources a shotgun costs. Because they are only effective early on, you need to rush with them and it destroys your early-game economy, which totally craps up the basic build that everyone should use: ip-->armory-->arms lab + res tower --> proto lab + res tower --> upgrade armory + proto lab --> recycle arms lab and save 100 res for 6 minute jp/hmg rush.
Why do shotguns suck late game? Well, I'll tell you.
It's not that they suck. Its that HMGs are better. I yell at people who tell me "OMG I AM GOSUERER WITH SHOTTIE GIVE ME ON PLZ!!!!!11!11". No. Stuff it and learn how to jetpack. HMG is better than shotty in every situation imaginable. If you can control a jetpack, then you don't need a shotty. So if you have an upgraded armory, shotties are obsolete.
So, all in all you are going to have 3-4 guys with shotguns under the hive. Skulks will pop up, and immediately be able to chew on them. LMGs need to cover, and they need to have damn good aim. If a shotgunner is caught reloading, he is dead, because of the time involved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're a bit smart about it you start reloading with 1 shell in the gun. Why? Because you can fire WHILE reloading a shotgun. Extremely nifty.
Thats NOT a JP HMG rush then.
If you have 6 DC in your hive and lerk's ITS NOT A RUSH.
On a 14 man server you can get JP's before any skulks can get 33 res. You might be able to get lerks if you use your gorge though.
Once carapace is up, skulks can take 2-3 shotgun blasts, making the shotgun much less effective.
And one of the major advantages of the shotgun is the <b>lack</b> of downtime for a reload. You can start a reload after every single shot you fire, and if you need to fire again can interupt the reload. This means unless you pump 10 shots in rapid succession into a hive, you'll never be stuck unable to fire. The shotgunner is the one who covers for a reloading LMG/HMG, not the other way around.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A shotgun is always capeable of killing a skulk in one shot, regardless of carapace. You've just gotta let them get a bit closer to ensure more pellets hit. Check Kitsune's stats for confirmation.
Additionally, if your gaving carapace to skulks its only fair to assume the marines have some weapons upgrades as well, which helps.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A shotgun is always capeable of killing a skulk in one shot, regardless of carapace. You've just gotta let them get a bit closer to ensure more pellets hit. Check Kitsune's stats for confirmation.
Additionally, if your gaving carapace to skulks its only fair to assume the marines have some weapons upgrades as well, which helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotty is the ultimate skulk killer - in a 1-1 situation. But you got to have that ice in the stomach to wait for the very last fraction of a split second before the skulk is about to chomp your arm off before you fire. When good leaping starts to appear, the shotty is much harder to use on skulks. But if you aim good, it will die in one shot, no matter if it has carapace, regeneration, redemption, celerity or +10 to all Saving Throws.
Btw always reload your shotty at any given moment since you can interrupt reloading by pressing fire - a unique trait for the shotty.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
[off-topic] phear my Protection from Shotguns spell! [/off-topic]
/me runs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Are these things difficult to do? Yes. But they are doable. If instead you wait for the JP/HMG so show up, you are probably toast.
Aliens: be sociable. Invite a marine over for lunch.
I've been given a shotgun twice the last two days.
1:st time: On ns_nothing we relocate to cargo, I manage to convince the COM to give me a shotty for base defense. I walk around the cargo area killing off skulks for a while. When I am at the intersection of the long hallway leading to docking wing I get attacked by a group of skulks. I start backing up and pop the first one, the second one, the third one... all in all 5 skulks attacked me and I killed them all with 5 shots. After the last one was dead I checked my health and it was still at 100. With an LMG I would have taken *max* 2 of them (they had carapace) and let 3 skulks through to harass our base. Thing with the shotgun is that it kills so *quickly*. Even a great shot have to get off like 20 shots to kill *one* skulk with an LMG (if they have cara), leaving the others time to close in.
2:nd time our base is going down, I respawn on a shotty and starts running against a Fade that just came in the door. I ran straight at him shooting and once I got close started to jump around him unloading. After 5 or 6 shots he went down, so did I, one second later, but 1 shotty killing 1 fade is ok, and it is still arond to be used.
It does take more "skill" to use but I have above average aim. I'm also an avid CS player and AWP/M-wh0re, and the shotty is the closest thing to an AWM in NS. Basically you get one shot, if it is good, target is dead, if it isn't, you're dead. LMG is easy and even if you die you will usually at least injure the enemy, shotgun is more demanding but will enable you to kill *much* more enemies and still survive, if you use it right. So it's not the tool that is bad, it's the user.
Shotgun = Hard to use, high potential.
LMG = Easy to use, low potential.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Really, this is funny ****.
Skulks restricting the marines in early game???
Come on now, the game is called "Natural selection", not "Kill the puny marine team". Trust me on this one. Taking on equal numbers of marines pre carpace, is like playing chicken with a tank.
Where I play, skulks gennerally have kill rates < 1 until the DC starts going up, since the Khraa spawn slower, hunting THEM down seems a bit more realistic. Marines should definitly be hunting the alien res not the other way around.