Newbie Nightmare

ThygrrrThygrrr Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14189Members
edited March 2003 in Mapping Forum
<div class="IPBDescription">Spoiled by GtkRadiant</div> How are you, Gentlemen! All your base ...

Okay, here's my problem: Choosing the right editor. However, it's a little more complicated than this - I've mapped a bit (and loved every bit of it) for RtcW using GtkRadiant, which I found extremely intuitive to use after a very miniscule investment of my time to learn it - despite the fact that ever since Doom 1 and DEU, I hadn't created or edited any maps for games with an engine from id software ;-)

Now, I've tried QERadiant, but the patched version crashes on my computer so I can't use that to edit any Half-Life related things (and it's not recommended by any of the sites I've seen so far, either).

QuArK - Jeepers, it seems to be developed for Glide (I haven't had a Voodoo card since 1998). It generally dumbfounds me as to how I could even start a Half Life map with QuArK, in the first place. Okay, it's late, I'm tired, but I'm an IT professional and usually figure out all kinds of complex Software in no time to make a living. (Ending my rant about QuArK, it's simply not for me ;-)

I went on to Valve's Hammer. While the interface is solid, the hotkeys (shift-b, shift-s, hey, why do I have to type shift or ctrl everytime...) give me carpal tunnel just from creating my 'HelloWorld' type first room. I think I could eventually get used to Hammer, though GtkRadiant has completely spoiled me in terms of user-friendliness and sheer ease of use (for someone who loves complex things).

And this is where I find myself now, seeing absolutely AWESOME maps such as ns_eclipse with lots of impressive brushwork; yet I have trouble getting even simple square rooms done with the Editors I tried.

So... which editors did the mappers use to create the official NS-maps? Any newbie tips you could give me (as in, how did you learn to map for Half-Life etc. ?) And, in particular (and to make this post more on-topic), which editors are best suited for all the nifty things NS introduced to HL?

<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <i>"I love to build things!"</i>

Comments

  • masterswordmanmasterswordman Join Date: 2002-12-21 Member: 11303Members
    HAMMER, or Quark, although if your a newbie to mapping and want the easy way out, use HAMMER. If you want it to be very easy for you to map and such, but after practice, use Quark Army Knife, notice thou it has a horrible openGL setup and it's a pain to get used to.
  • ThygrrrThygrrr Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14189Members
    I'm sloooowly getting used to Hammer - in fact, the cordoning feature is quite shibby! QuArK is totally unacceptable to me.... sorry.

    Anyway, I'll be dabbling with Hammer until the HL version of GtkRadiant is released.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    hammer.. its all done with hammer... just make some maps, read some things, look at other maps how they are done.. then you will see that its possible
  • ChromeAngelChromeAngel Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 14Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I tried to go from Worldcraft/Hammer to GtkRadient and thought it was the most appauling piece of rubbish. Shows how tastes differ. Then again i've been using Worldcraft since the days of Quake.

    I believe that most (if not all) the offical maps were made in Hammer.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    I figure it's relatively difficult to switch from Radiant to other editors because it doesn't use the conventional 'top-front-side-drag' style of creating brushes, but instead a system more akin to the first 3DStudios (before the 'Max').

    Well, I use the Hammer, simply 'cause the Python code hates my machine, and know that most official NS mappers do, too. Having gathered my first experience with 3D art in an old version of Lightwave, it's the easiest for me. No idea how long you'll have to practice to get really used to it, though.
  • JedediahJedediah Join Date: 2003-01-27 Member: 12847Members
    All the mapping programs are appaling in one way or another but yeah, Hammer is the lesser of many evils. It's a shame these crappy tools are what has to be used to create maps for some of the worlds most popular games. You'd think somebody would do something about that but I guess us behind the scene people are somewhat of an afterthought <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I'm working on a tool now that should make VHE somewhat more usable.. although I'd still like to see a completely new editor.
  • RevenantRevenant Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12249Members
    Maybe Cagey can come up with a long project of a new editor =)
  • YamazakiYamazaki Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 21Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I do everything in Hammer. The only shortcut keys I need to use on a regular basis is Crtl-F for adding verticies in Vertex Manipulation mode, and [ ] for adjusting the grid. For everything else, there's Mastercard... er, I mean... a button.

    I have tried other editors, not all of them for Half-Life. I've used some of the old Doom1/2 editors like DEU and their ilk, QERadiant for Quake 3, some licensed engine called Gamestudio that came from europe, and recently I tried Worldbuilder for C&C Generals. Everyone seems to have their own opinion about what is user friendly and powerful.
  • ConfusedConfused Wait. What? Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12904Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester
    hammer and the right click menu is your friend !
  • MavericMaveric Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1101Members
    Be sure you go to the VHE web site, there's lots of map-making info and <b>LINKS</b> in there, too.

    Oh, and if you click multiply times on the "clip brush" button you can reverse and cut-in-half the brush you have selected for clipping. This feature alone is gonna save you a proportional amount of time...

    AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DONT USE THE CARVE TOOL WITH ANYTHING THAT ISN'T A SQUARE! VHE absolutly SUCKS at carving;

    use the above clip abilites to "split" the first brush up into smaller ones. EX:

    1 Make a box (L,h,w) 128,128,16 in size.
    2 Split the bos into three using the above "split brush" method into three boxes so you have three tall boxes
    3 Split the middle one in half on the horizontal
    4 Split the top half into four tall brushes
    5 select the four brushes one-by-one and "Cut" the bottoms off to make a arch (visualizing how helps!)
    6 delete the other middle brushes except your "arch" so you have 2 walls and a completly Editor friendly arch with no errors.

    It takes me about 5-10 minutes to make a complete arch (textures and everything) with no errors. sure, you could take a half-circle and cube and group them, then carve them into the other box, but if you compare the two methods side-by-side you'd see why the latter will give you a "splitting" head ache. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    and thats just something i learn't from one tutorial. There are other really good tutorials out there too... but like i said, VISUALIZE. (It does wonders. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
  • DY357LXDY357LX Playing since day 1. Still can&#39;t Comm. England Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1651Members, Constellation
    So are there any nice Radiant style toolz out there
    for the Half-Life engine? I don't mind using VALVe Hammer
    but I used JKRadiant for Jedi knight 2 mapping a good 6/7
    months ago and very really pleased (and at 1 point addicted).
    It was easy to learn, it could handle nice curved brushed
    and quite a lot more. The DOS-style compiler was better
    than looking at the HLCSG/HLRAD etc Window.
  • CageyCagey Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    edited March 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--DY357LX+Mar 2 2003, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DY357LX @ Mar 2 2003, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So are there any nice Radiant style toolz out there
    for the Half-Life engine? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Talk to Hydra over at Radiant dev -- he's in charge of adapting GTKRadiant for Half-Life. It's been a while since I've checked on the progress of the adaptation, but I know it's an active project. I've played with an early beta of Half-Life compatible Radiant, and it had a ways to go, but was off to a good start. The beta can load Hammer format maps (texture format is different) with some information loss and save/compile them to the game. Sprite support was included, but decal support wasn't there yet. The main reasons I went back to Hammer were the texture data loss on import and the substitution of 3 point clip for the face splitter... it'd be nice if one of the editors had both options for creating new planes.

    EDIT: another important thing I forgot... Radiant doesn't support showing Render Properties at the moment -- alpha channels are determined when textures are loaded and don't vary from ent to ent. This isn't something that Hammer does either, but it is something that I would like to see Radiant doing in future builds.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe Cagey can come up with a long project of a new editor =) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You're scaring me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. If I could spend an extended period just coding one project, I might try that... I'd rather focus on shorter term projects for the time being--while I'd like to develop a true CAD interface (command line entry of instructions, ability to specify coordinates through a keyboard interface), it's a huge task to take on as a single developer, and I'd be spending a lot of time reinventing the wheel. There aren't a lot of people who are used to working with CAD, so it wouldn't be widely used.

    I'm primarily interested in developing tools and tweaks that address common problems that haven't been solved before <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. The planes fix took me one night once I saw the need for it, and the clipping fix took me about a week including the explanation page--I'd like to continue bringing out new goodies at a regular pace if Real Life continues to let that be possible. I'd also like to finish the NS map I'm supposed to be working on and still have time to <i>play</i> the game, so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
  • ThygrrrThygrrr Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14189Members
    Hi guys!

    I'm making nice Progress and have grown to like Hammer (though Texturing is a ****, maybe I'm doing something wrong ...)

    Overall, I get along fine, though I often screw up by doing my radiant way of things - CTRL-Klick on a face selects that face for texturing.... The Hammer Hotkeys are totally unintuitive to me, still.

    Anyway... stay tuned for ns_myfirstmap (name yet to be decided, hehe)
  • LNXSilverhawkLNXSilverhawk Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14242Members, Constellation
    gotta love that hammer editor.. it grows on you....like.... the bacterium on human ships...

    bad analogy
  • CageyCagey Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Thygrrr+Mar 6 2003, 11:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thygrrr @ Mar 6 2003, 11:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Hammer Hotkeys are totally unintuitive to me, still.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=25182' target='_blank'>Here</a> 's a thread on how to remap Hammer's hotkeys.
  • ThygrrrThygrrr Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14189Members
    Duh, I should have used ResHack and my VC++ tools on hammer a long time ago <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Okay, now this is beginning to become a really goooood editor. Wheeee!
  • BlackPantherBlackPanther Join Date: 2002-02-11 Member: 197Members
    Pure Hammer.
    Too late to learn a new mapping tool now!

    Plus Hammer gives me a lot of control.
    Other editor tend to be... "wasteful" and doesn't optimize as much as i want them too...imho.
  • CabooseCaboose title = name(self, handle) Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13597Members, Constellation
    Untell Hammer the only mapping i was used to the the level editor from 3dgs (3D Game Studio "A5 Engine") and it was very very easy to use. I would like to use it to make my maps. I can not though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I can make maps in Hammer and export to .map and edit them in 3DGS but not export <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> maybe there is a program out there somewhere that will export them to .map because i really would like to use it to make my maps. It is much easer to make complex rooms and such than cliping and vertex manipulation. If anybody knows of a program that could export to .map please tell me.
  • Gimpy_Doodly_DooGimpy_Doodly_Doo Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14521Members
    Me too I would like to use that map editor.
  • rimj0b_r0dentrimj0b_r0dent Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14581Members
    To all you people complaining about Hammer:

    What wrong with it? Why are other editors so much better? The only thing that I hate about Hammer is that you can't select textures based on configs, you can't have multiple texture filters based on filename (and the fact that it shows you the file path, so you can't see the name), and that there is no prefab for a sphere.

    Other than that I think it's just a matter of getting used to and what kind of interface you like. Personally, hate programs that use multiple windows. I prefer One big screen where I have easy access to all the options.
  • masterswordmanmasterswordman Join Date: 2002-12-21 Member: 11303Members
    Try to learn Quark, I wished I started with it. You have so much more control, and a bigger window, you don't have to bother with a lot of annoying **** with it. Then again if you started with Hammer it will take the jaws of death to rip you away from it
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