Is Getting Rid Of The First Person Muzzle Flash..

Talesin · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Mar 20 2003, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> this isnt worth my time. I can get through a brick wall faster then i can get through to the average player (Talesin). PM me if you wanna continue this fruitless conversation  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Then why did you take so much time to post otherwise? Or even respond to my post at all? Or suggest continuing the conversation via PM (probably the most telling, wanting to get the argument away from public eyes).

Though it is true that you *could* get through a brick wall faster, than to get me to accept your <b>cheating</b> as a valid tactic, after having been denounced by Flayra himself, as well as any number of playtesters.
Though feel free to try the brick-wall thing. Use your skull... either it's thick enough that it won't be damaged, or you'll give yourself a concussion (or worse) and we won't have to hear your brainless attempts at justifying <b>cheating</b> any more.

sekdar · March 2003

*sigh*

there is no need to argue over this junk, its fate is sealed...

Necro · March 2003

i'd say it's a cheat because it's the same as taking away the skulk teeth (which the ns team has said is a cheat) except its harder (eg. you have to ACTUALLY edit a file not just use a command) but i'd really like an OFFICIAL ns team response.

Talesin · March 2003

Check earlier in the thread, Necro. Flayra posted. As well as on a few other threads where this topic has come up.

MonsieurEvil · March 2003

I'm not going to speak for Flay on this, but I believe it's at best being a bit sneaky and giving yourself an advantage. At worst, it's exploiting. You will just have to wait and see where NS 1.1 takes all this though...

RotA_Plague · March 2003

Well I see it this way, many people complain about evening. Marines odviously have a range advantage at the begining, and the aliens at close ranges and withing a group of marines can be powerful. Now lets see, marines would be inpossible to kill if they just kept their distance (forget about reloading and muzzel flash for the moment). Now reload and the muzzel flash are the disadvantages to prevent this, if one or both were to be removed what chance would aliens stand at a range. It would be a extremely low one at the most. Same if I were to removed the Skulk bite animations. If I did that you could make many marine tombs.

The point I am trying to make is, your tossing off the evening of weapons whichs is just as bad as cheating(yet isn't exactly if you look at the meaning of the terms) if not worse.

Idea(even though this is the wrong forum for it. Why not little server patches that approve certain models/sprites/sounds other then the defaults that this server supports. The team could gather trusted people and have them make little files that you put somewhere in the NS directory that let you use models that are approved. And for the server command(cannot remember the name of it) if set to 0 then all models could be used, if set to 1 then only the NS originals could be used, and if set to 2 then only approved models could be used.

Edit: To avoid missunderstanding, I don't mean by V1.1 that this will toss off evening by doing this, I trust the NS dev team and playtesters getting NS even. What I do mean is that customization to give yourself a advantage is NOT cheating BUT it IS messing with the evening by only putting it in your favor. Just as the statement, how many votes did the dictator get..... 1 vote.

Minstrel_Knight · March 2003

omg not the shut up your face trash
//OMG SUYF
alias SUYF "voiceoff"
alias voiceoff "voice_scale 0; alias SUYF voiceon"
alias voiceon "voice_scale 1; alias SUYF voiceoff"
bind x "SUYF"

G_I_Joehosaphat · March 2003

How can I, as a server admin, restrain people from using these cheats/exploits. And to preemtively stop any needless flaming... Yes, I consider them cheats/exploits. My server, My rules.

Can anyone give me some tips?

G.I.

Clan_Hunter · March 2003

*Removed*

boberto · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Mar 21 2003, 12:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> OMG. I have never seen anyone so elegantly argue against themselves. As well as implying Flayra is retarded <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Sigh. In one sentence you claim it's not an exploit. Then you say it's Flayra game and he can do what he wants. He's said he considers it an exploit, so you just dug a hole for yourself i'm afraid.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
he specifically said in CLAN mode, CLAN MODE!!

JHunz · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (G.I.Joehosaphat @ Mar 20 2003, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How can I, as a server admin, restrain people from using these cheats/exploits. And to preemtively stop any needless flaming... Yes, I consider them cheats/exploits. My server, My rules.

Can anyone give me some tips?

G.I.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Well, this one is easily solved by enforcing consistency, no?

airyK · March 2003

how about someone making a new thread or request the dev team to finally decide what is a cheat and what is alright........that would stop these useless flames once and forever

TeoH · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The MG now has a much smaller muzzle flash (the skulk bite is faster also).
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Ah excellent, nice to see valid critisism doesn't always go in the trash can. I'll see how this works out, although i would still have prefered the option to remove weapons completely this is a good step. Also...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
changing the game in any way beyond using the <b>options in the UI</b> is considered an exploit
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Thats some pretty dodgy clanplay there where i'm not allowed to fix my network settings or bind any commands...

Whatever clan scene you're referring to, im glad i'm not a part of it.

Edcrab · March 2003

Meh. I've never, ever, <i>ever</i> had a problem with the LMG's muzzle-flash size. If you can't kill the skulk under your recticle before it moves, chances are you'll be dead anyway... I suppose a lot of people are used to it.

Regardless, if you consider it obstructive and remove it, surely that's undoubtedly an unfair advantage? But cheating? Flayra seems to think so. If the dev team don't want it as an available choice, and as they're changing it anyway, well, this post's irrelevant I must admit...

DizzyOne · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Mar 20 2003, 08:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ok pheonix, you misunderstand the difference between hacking/cheating and exploiting. Once you get those definitions straight, i'll think about reading your mindless posts.

Dragon-2
nubs-0

Frogg, <i>you</i> need to understand the difference between gameplay altering <b>glitches</b> and non-crucial <b>bugs</b>. I dont see how using stopcommandermode (a <b><u>NATURAL SELECTION</b></u> command) customizes anything.

Dragon-3
nubs-0

It <i>is</i> exploiting something. I dont know what, but thats what FLAYRA said. I dont agree with it, but I <i>am</i> allowed to form my own opinions. Respecting that opinion is the first step to arguing with someone. Cheating or hacking is using a 3rd party program to look through walls and lock onto targets. Turning off, your models in NS is just as bad as changing your mouse sensitivity. cuuuuuuustom

Dragon-4
nubs-0

Turning your models off doesnt give you any advantage that any any other player cant take advantage of as well.

Dragon-5
nubs-0

By turning off your models you lose CRUCIAL on screen information for both teams.

Dragon-6
nubs-0

i'll leave it at that and continue to prove people wrong as they keep posting what they think is good information.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
i dont want to dissapoint u, but its 5-0 for u, u forgot one "elite" hax

By turning off your models you lose CRUCIAL on screen information for both teams.

This is so not true, noobs may have this problem, but those real "elite" hax0rs around there (not me!) use a <b>SWITCH</b> button, so they lose no crucial info and still can attack without teeth, now i could give u the command for this here but it will probly be edited or ill be flamed for posting it here cuz its a very very very lame hax...

The ppl who know how to make it can decide for themselves anyway <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Ph0enix · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 21 2003, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The MG now has a much smaller muzzle flash (the skulk bite is faster also).
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Ah excellent, nice to see valid critisism doesn't always go in the trash can. I'll see how this works out, although i would still have prefered the option to remove weapons completely this is a good step. Also...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
changing the game in any way beyond using the <b>options in the UI</b> is considered an exploit
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Thats some pretty dodgy clanplay there where i'm not allowed to fix my network settings or bind any commands...

Whatever clan scene you're referring to, im glad i'm not a part of it.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Pfft. I gave up with SoBe Dragon.

Yes, I must agree TeoH, even though I didn't personally have a problem with muzzle flash/skulk bite, I eventually realised from the number of complaints about it there had to be a case for changing it. I'm not stupid enough to ignore a bizillion people and its nice to know the devs aren't either.

Re: 'changing' the game, I think Flayra meant in regard to changing/removing models. I'm sure each league/ladder/tournament will have different guidelines on what you can and can't 'tweak' config wise.

I might be wrong of course <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

TeoH · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Mar 21 2003, 07:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Re: 'changing' the game, I think Flayra meant in regard to changing/removing models. I'm sure each league/ladder/tournament will have different guidelines on what you can and can't 'tweak' config wise.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Possibly, if configs and the console come under "UI" then i see what he's getting at. That would basically refer to custom models or external programs/hooks.

VeTeRaN · March 2003

How come r_draw 0 is allowed in every other mod for HL, and its corresponding leagues? Why is it so different for NS?

Zel · March 2003

in this mod the creator was creative and used some weapon models as a balancing issue. in other mods weapon models are just crappy eye candy.

<b>** Calm down before you post please. **</b>

Flayra · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 21 2003, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The MG now has a much smaller muzzle flash (the skulk bite is faster also).
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Ah excellent, nice to see valid critisism doesn't always go in the trash can. I'll see how this works out, although i would still have prefered the option to remove weapons completely this is a good step. Also...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
changing the game in any way beyond using the <b>options in the UI</b> is considered an exploit
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Thats some pretty dodgy clanplay there where i'm not allowed to fix my network settings or bind any commands...

Whatever clan scene you're referring to, im glad i'm not a part of it.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Try to keep the heat level down.

It's called levelling the playing field, and it's used by a <a href='http://www.thecpl.com' target='_blank'>competitive organization</a> you may have heard of? I don't believe the CAL or other laddres can enforce this, so if they don't enable mp_consistency, you can play with pulse rifles, no flash or whatever else you want. If you're interested in the official clan scene though, I suggest playing with stock NS.

GWAR · March 2003

I still think file consistancy is harsh... I play with a few models that actually make it harder to see things.... (Especially that genestealer skulk)

Drew · March 2003

yea i really hope our troops in iraq can remove their rifle models so they dont get in the way....

im a full on supporter of file consistency.

Dopple · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JHunz @ Mar 21 2003, 03:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (G.I.Joehosaphat @ Mar 20 2003, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How can I, as a server admin, restrain people from using these cheats/exploits. And to preemtively stop any needless flaming... Yes, I consider them cheats/exploits. My server, My rules.

Can anyone give me some tips?

G.I. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well, this one is easily solved by enforcing consistency, no?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
mp_consistency only checks models, not sprites (the muzzle flash). Sprites are fair game.

ZiGGY · March 2003

An option to have a bright pink or green muzzle flash would make my day <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

XCan · March 2003

Whoever posted that he/she doesn't think removing muzzle flash and bite animation is cheating I would like to ask: "Define cheating."
By moste people cheating is when someone gain an unfair advantage over other competors by using unallowed methods.
r_draw is unallowed so it's cheat. Wallhacking is unallowed so it's a cheat too. Using steroids within sports is unallowed and is cheat. I don't believe the sportsmen say: "hey **** it's my body I can do what the hell I want with it!" do you think that?
If you think using different mouse sens and r_draw is cheating on same level your brain has some serious trouble handling logical problems. That's like saying it's cheat when a sprinter runs with a brand new shoes instead of a worn pair...
It's common sense, and use the organ inside your skull before stating anything.

Black_Ops_Lerk_Master · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drath @ Mar 21 2003, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
as far as i can see the ONLY reason for some1 to remove their muzzle flash sprite is to be more efficient at killing. its not making it look pretty, its enabling u to get more frags. i have no problem with ppl using custom models etc. , as long as using them doesnt give them an advantage over ppl who are playing default. this does, therefore it shouldnt be used.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
err!

even tho marines dont have individual scores!

Rue · March 2003

tbh , if u use r_drawview models to get rid of muzzel flash then u loose motion tracking :/ i think that the loss of mt is enough for anyone not to get rid of the flash :/

Immacolata · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Mar 21 2003, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Thats some pretty dodgy clanplay there where i'm not allowed to fix my network settings or bind any commands...

Whatever clan scene you're referring to, im glad i'm not a part of it. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Try to keep the heat level down.

It's called levelling the playing field, and it's used by a <a href='http://www.thecpl.com' target='_blank'>competitive organization</a> you may have heard of? I don't believe the CAL or other laddres can enforce this, so if they don't enable mp_consistency, you can play with pulse rifles, no flash or whatever else you want. If you're interested in the official clan scene though, I suggest playing with stock NS. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Would 1.1 version of NS put a stop to rate xxxx haxx0rs? As I am told you cannot do a server side prevention of people purposively throttling their rate to create "warp" when they dont need the precision of low latency, thus making them harder to hit, and instantly switch to high rate the second they need to shoot or bite? It would be very nice if you could force people to play at whatever cmd rate/ rate etc. they have on logging onto the server.

Talesin · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rue @ Mar 22 2003, 03:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> tbh , if u use r_drawview models to get rid of muzzel flash then u loose motion tracking :/ i think that the loss of mt is enough for anyone not to get rid of the flash :/  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
The problem is, there are ways to turn off ONLY the flash itself, without losing anything else. There are also ways to disable the drawviewmodels (the part that also kills MT) only when you are firing. So nothing is lost for these exploiters, except their honour in playing a game fairly.

Frogg2 · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rue @ Mar 22 2003, 05:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> tbh , if u use r_drawview models to get rid of muzzel flash then u loose motion tracking :/ i think that the loss of mt is enough for anyone not to get rid of the flash :/  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
/me thinks otherwise.

MT makes marines lazy, not to mention it gets in the way.

Is Getting Rid Of The First Person Muzzle Flash..

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