Welcome ladies and gentlemen to your weekly installment of "Savant complains about aliens being too weak". I'll be your host, snacks and refreshments are available from the marked booths.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't blow up floor or roof mines with spit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is because you're doing it wrong, nubcaeks. Aim half a foot above the mine (Below it if its a roof mine).
Not to mention that a gorge with regen can walk over a mine, detonate it, heal, detonate another one, heal, ad nauseum.
Its certainly well known that there is a problem with the resouce model which favours aliens in small teams and marines in large teams. Do not complain about tech rushing when you're playing on a 20 player server, clan matches are played 6v6 for a reason.
If you want to tech rush a good alien team with reasonable team sizes, you are very unlikely to get away with just sitting in your base and teching up. If you do not pressure, and give aliens free reign of the map you allow them to prepare defence. As well as practically inviting skulks to harass your resources/plan rushes to chomp your armoury. A full JP rush can still be held back by 1/2 competant lerks and OCs *in* the hive, rather than unsuccesfully blocking some doorway in the middle of nowhere, and by sitting on your **** while you tech you allow aliens to prepare this. This is why succesfully pressuring an alien team, hunting gorges, killing DCs and res towers and containing skulks in their hive is a key component of a good tech strat. And the outcome of these pressure tactics most likely decide the game. On the majority of maps resource towers are split out in such a way that trying to defend 3 locations with 5 marines without phases is not realistic. You are spread too thin to prevent a 5 skulk team hitting one tower, then hitting another. Mines are a combat suppliment or a trap for dozy skulks, on their own they do not prevent a skulk from chomping a tower. The bite range is long enough to chomp a tower from behind a mine placed at its base, towers can be chomped from above, or while sticking to a wall beside it. With the marines killed the tower will fall mines or no mines. This is why it is necessary to occupy the skulks with something else, like defending their hive. If you don't attack them, they are going to attack you.
Now for the first time in a thread like this i'm actually going to back up my post with something:
Total time for build: 7 minutes 10 seconds to get the rush going.
This is a reasonably slim build, with 1 IP and no obs for beacon, nothing gets chomped and the marines keep hold of 3 RTs. I only dropped 4 mine packs, if a carapace skulk rush hit at the right time the marines may well be in trouble with 1 IP and no distress beacon. Now the alien build:
Advance 20 seconds 1 Gorge Kill all skulks on the skulk rush Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds kill 2 skulks Advance 30 seconds Drop RT, gorge actively building Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Drop OC in hive Drop OC in hive 1 skulk go lerk 1 skulk go gorge Drop OC in hive Advance 30 seconds Drop OC in hive 1 skulk go lerk
Total time for this is around 5:50, you have 2 lerks, 2 gorges, full carapace and 4 OCs in the hive, as well as res to drop more, its also possible for the 2nd gorge to get a res tower first, then proceed to place OCs. You can have 2 lerks and carapace at around 4 minutes, and the longer the match lasts the more defence you can place at the hive.
And if you're wondering about a high speed recycle rush, try the following with 6 players:
This is pretty much the most obscene tech rush you can pull off, even going to the point of recycling the IP and with no mines being placed. The time for this in a 6v6 game? 4 minutes 30 seconds. Compare that against the above alien build and you'll just how innaccurate the "guarunteed win" crap is.
Prepare to defend against JPs, harrass marine res and tech structures to slow the tech speed, defend the rush with lerks and OCs and then counter immediately with a carapace skulk rush. This is how you beat a plain 'sit in your base and defend' tech rush.
Marines rely very heavily on getting res for their tech rushes. My strategy, kill their res tower during a rush, 2 or 3 skulks to the rt and the rest kill/distract the marines.
This will REALLY slow down the res (teams get res even without rt's) making their tech rush a silly strategy since it will cost them dearly. This will force them to turtle in their pathetic marine spawn and hold off the attackers with the standard load out (no hard feelings to the comm who'll cop the blame for that)
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Mar 25 2003, 12:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 25 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do not complain about tech rushing when you're playing on a 20 player server, clan matches are played 6v6 for a reason. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think clan matches are played 6vs6 because someone pulled that number out of their **** without giving much thought to how it plays. "hey this is some kind of alien Counter-Strike ain't it? We'll just copy paste the tournament rules from CS. Done! New league created". Perhaps they did know what they were doing, but I disagree. Why not 7vs7? Clearly more fun. At 8vs8 games you get the unfortunate first bonus to economy ticks and it starts sliding towards marine superiority.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think clan matches are played 6vs6 because someone pulled that number out of their **** without giving much thought to how it plays. "hey this is some kind of alien Counter-Strike ain't it? We'll just copy paste the tournament rules from CS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Initially, you're probably right. But we wouldn't still be using it if it didn't work. Also:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why not 7vs7? Clearly more fun <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get your logic, why is it 'clearly' more fun :)
After 1.1 is out, teams will probably experiment with larger team sizes, i admit there are some nice advantages to larger teams. As it is though, marines pretty much have the edge in clanplay, and if the eco simulator is anything to go by, 7v7 knocks a minute off the first JP rush build, while giving very little benefit to the aliens. (additional res is soaked up by the additional skulk, gorges see no benefit at all untill everyone is maxed.)
Large team sizes at the moment would probably kill clanplay, 7v7 is a grey area.
Funny how this began from mines now its down to damn JP/HMG again.
I just reckon mines should be hit by gorges easier and be a bit more volatile and harm any marines near them when they blow.
Im also a mine popper, luv taking one for the team, im also very notorious for blowing mates up that get too close when im clearing them. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
aliens have no reason to complain about marine res. economy when they get redemption (I.E. free resource costing classes after they 'die' )
redemp fades are the most annoying thing in this game right now imo besides the fact that everyone wants JPs and never uses HA
the only *real* res. probs come from larger teams givin' marines a good res. advantage..........hopefulyl 1.1 shall address that
ugh I also just noticed.......everyone wants it so that when a mine blows in non-turney it hurts everything? I thought you guys didnt wanna make them useless? If this was in palce I can gurantee mines would never be used.....at all
which would make me sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for thoughts on the mine limit, I saw a post about doubling up res points (many rts on one res node) and the aliens could build about 8 before a limit kicked message in. The marines could build as many as they wanted. Evidently, limits on buildings and webs etc has been coded on aliens only.
HA/HMG rushing isn't a problem, mine rushing isn't a problem, JP/HMG is a big problem in pubs and simply an overpowered strat in clanplay, and is being sorted in 1.1.
People have got to learn not just to go for a mindless rush for the second hive. By doing so your asking for a rush of your choice to kill you. If you prepare yourself for it you can beat it. Sure, you delay the 2nd hive a bit, but you'll have a defended first hive and level 3 carapace.
What you have got to do is to get skulks running into marine base, causing as much havoc as possible and reporting on what they're doing. Then you can plan accordingly.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Mar 25 2003, 06:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 25 2003, 06:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Welcome ladies and gentlemen to your weekly installment of "Savant complains about aliens being too weak". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No Teoh, it's not "I" complain, it's that Flayra has said marines are too strong.
Yuno what?
Considering he WROTE the game, I think I'll take his word over your haughty attitude in this regard. Again, let me recap here. If I was to hear two opinions on a matter, one from you and one from Flayra, then your word = garbage and Flayra's word = gold. Thanks for your understanding in this matter. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is because you're doing it wrong, nubcaeks. Aim half a foot above the mine (Below it if its a roof mine).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resorting to insults now? Wow... How mature of you. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've seen clan gorges do JUST as you describe and the mines have not gone off. Frankly if I'm a gorge I don't have 10 minutes to waste trying to figure out the 'magic spot' on a mine when people are marching on the hive. Yes you can make them go off 'sometimes', but that's not the point here. (does the phrase 'straw man' mean anything to you?)
Your calculations are also flawed. I'm not going to go into detail, (since it's not the point of the thread, it's been done in other threads - use the search function) but sufficient to say even if you have a marine team that doesn't go 'full out' in a tech rush, they can still EASILY beat the aliens.
Why? While you were busy playing with the res model toy, you forgot to take into account a SECOND HIVE. Yuno that big fancy thing that gives aliens the additional evolutions. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the aliens use one OR two gorges and go straight for a second hive, then the absolute fastest you will see fades is 12 minutes. Usually it is closer to 15 minutes because of resource issues and being dead in the spawn queue. (each time waiting to spawn and not getting res and spawning then using 2 res to get carapace adds up) If you delay the second hive you have an even longer wait. If you give marines 20 minutes with no fades they WILL finish the game for you.
That gives them PLENTY of time to tech up and still hit the hive with JP/HMG and not have to worry about fades. Heck, if they took 10 minutes they could pull it off with ease. Lerks help, but any smart marine will target the LERKS if he is taking too much damage anyway. 10 bullets from LVL1 HMG = lerk dead. (10 bullets = 2 seconds of HMG fire = cakewalk)
Anyway, as was mentioned, the author of this mod thinks you're wrong (in principle) since he will be addressing the 'tech rush' in the next patch. As I said initially, this thread was moreso about mines than anything. Thanks for keeping it on topic...
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Mar 25 2003, 06:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 25 2003, 06:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is a reasonably slim build, with 1 IP and no obs for beacon, nothing gets chomped and the marines keep hold of 3 RTs. I only dropped 4 mine packs, if a carapace skulk rush hit at the right time the marines may well be in trouble with 1 IP and no distress beacon. Now the alien build:
Advance 20 seconds 1 Gorge Kill all skulks on the skulk rush Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds kill 2 skulks Advance 30 seconds Drop RT, gorge actively building Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Drop OC in hive Drop OC in hive 1 skulk go lerk 1 skulk go gorge Drop OC in hive Advance 30 seconds Drop OC in hive 1 skulk go lerk
Total time for this is around 5:50, you have 2 lerks, 2 gorges, full carapace and 4 OCs in the hive, as well as res to drop more, its also possible for the 2nd gorge to get a res tower first, then proceed to place OCs. You can have 2 lerks and carapace at around 4 minutes, and the longer the match lasts the more defence you can place at the hive.
And if you're wondering about a high speed recycle rush, try the following with 6 players:
This is pretty much the most obscene tech rush you can pull off, even going to the point of recycling the IP and with no mines being placed. The time for this in a 6v6 game? 4 minutes 30 seconds. Compare that against the above alien build and you'll just how innaccurate the "guarunteed win" crap is.
Prepare to defend against JPs, harrass marine res and tech structures to slow the tech speed, defend the rush with lerks and OCs and then counter immediately with a carapace skulk rush. This is how you beat a plain 'sit in your base and defend' tech rush. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, in your first example, I don't believe you are properly displaying normal time frames of aliens. Gorge move pretty damn slow to go first off. That would mean time between each drop. But anyway, cutting all that out, how does that help if the marines have JP again? When did OC towers ever do ANYTHING vs. JP unless they were literally clogging a hallway? When you can JP up onto a hive and blast it to smitherines, that pretty much puts those useless OCs to rest. One lerk will not take out a hoard of JPers. Esp without umbra.
Onto your marine incident. Even the fast one is too slow here, I've seen it done and can attest to it that it CAN be done in about 3.5 minutes. That's right, JP rush at 3.5. However, that's no hmg/jp rush, just lmg, but when skulks don't even have their first D tower down, what does it matter? Take your example and cut out as follows:
IP Armoury Protolab Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Research JP Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds DROP 4 JPs for marines that have full ammo clips with lmg (or 6 if you recycle your IP or Armoury) Advance 30 seconds ** ** KILL HIVE HERE ** **
During all this while, after you have everything set up, you could even consider sending out marines to cap more res nodes or drop your mines, or start on hmg or whatevever you wanted. Besides that, unlike your model, you'll have 4 marines with JP, not 1, not 2 not 3 but 4. If you recycled anything you could get your whole team equipped and rush it, even yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Skulks at this time will not have the ability to kill you in most hives, without leap they just cant do it. Lerks will be non-existant. So what's to stop a GOOD team of marines from raping the hive? Nothing... Not even if you were ALL THE SKULK YOU CAN BE! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Im thinking those times are a little to conservitive. When My clan does it we normaly gear up and move on the hive with in 4 minutes. Our build que is slim, and we use a shotty or two. In my opion any more then 2 Res towers is a waste for 'rines since the 3rd wont have time to pay for its self before you win. You allso only need one IP becuase no matter how good the aleins are a good team of marines trumps sulks when there on the defence (barring incredible luck/ mishapps). The HMG is not all that nessisary as 3 or 4 LMGs can lock down and then kill a hive pretty easy. Something to think about,. 1 You dont have to kill the hive in a few seconds if you rush it quickly. All you have to do is kill most the aleins and cover the doors to kill the resta(a lck down). 2 With on hive aleins will spawn in perdictible spots ever 8 seconds and you will have about a second to kill them before ther fully "in the game" 3 So want if they have a OT or two or three, those thing go down like cheap **** to LMGs when the guy carring it knows how to kill em( shoot low, find a spot where you can hit it but it cant hit you) 4 TeoH your economics modle fails to account for carapace costs, lost res time becuase of being in the spawn que and the fact that a gorge moves slow and dies quickly. You can easly add another minute to that just by killing a gorge
Oh, and, don't forget, you drop something as a marine and it's built in around 2-3 seconds. MUCH longer as a gorge where nobody can help but other gorges. You can also only place single structures at a time whereas marines can plop down everything they've got in a half a second.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Mar 25 2003, 06:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 25 2003, 06:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now the alien build:
Advance 20 seconds 1 Gorge Kill all skulks on the skulk rush Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds kill 2 skulks Advance 30 seconds Drop RT, gorge actively building Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Drop DC Advance 30 seconds Drop OC in hive Drop OC in hive 1 skulk go lerk 1 skulk go gorge Drop OC in hive Advance 30 seconds Drop OC in hive 1 skulk go lerk
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, there are a couple of huge flaws with your alien strat. Essentially, you sacrifice your entire economy and any reasonable chance of winning for the sake of defending against the jp rush.
Up thru 1 res and 3 dcs, all is well. However, there are a few vital elements missing in the rest of the build. You will need more than one (edit: beyond your starting) res tower to win the game,and this is completely absent here. Also, if the aliens try to effectively defend the first hive (you drop 4 ocs and 3 dcs, + have a lerk), they severely damage their ability to get a second hive (which is the only point at which they should win, sans poor marine play). Combine both of these, and the alien economy is completely screwed. The marines will easily be able to afford a second or even third rush (likely with better weapons and armor) by the time you even start your second hive, let alone have a chance to defend it. Sadly, this method is the equivalent of the marines building nothing but turrets: it only delays the inevitable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No Teoh, it's not "I" complain, it's that Flayra has said marines are too strong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not complaining? Explain to me what this thread is for then? If you'd read the rest of my posts you would have seen me state clearly that i thought marines held the advantage in a clan game, but this isnt the issue. You've made suggestion after illogical suggestion that have all managed to miss any of the real reasons why marines hold an advantage. I don't want to bring up your back catalogue of <i>fantastic</i> ideas on how to screw over key parts of the marine game or enhance the aliens in ways which make no sense whatsoever. I'm here to address 3 points:
Mines being some sort of overpowered super weapon. Gorges being incapable of destroying mines JP rush being some sort of guarunteed win without requiring any form of pressure or offensive play, simply by sitting in your base and holding onto res nodes, thus requiring "no skill".
If you think the latter is off-topic, you might want to re-read this thread, as much of it (Including your own posts) concern JPs and tech rushing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Resorting to insults now? Wow... How mature of you. ??? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When <i>nubcaeks</i> becomes an insult, i'll eat your straw man. If i wanted to insult him i'd have called him a clueless newb unfit to lick feaces off my doormat. Nubcaeks is the internet equivalent of a deft jab in the shoulder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've seen clan gorges do JUST as you describe and the mines have not gone off. Frankly if I'm a gorge I don't have 10 minutes to waste trying to figure out the 'magic spot' on a mine when people are marching on the hive. Yes you can make them go off 'sometimes', but that's not the point here. (does the phrase 'straw man' mean anything to you?) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why? While you were busy playing with the res model toy, you forgot to take into account a SECOND HIVE. Yuno that big fancy thing that gives aliens the additional evolutions. :p <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea that a 2nd hive as early as possible is a necessity is the main reason people like you seem to believe the rush is unstoppable. Here's a news flash: You won't get a 2nd hive before a JP rush unless you practically sacrifice any chance of winning. And here's another little burst of genious: You don't need a 2nd hive to defend a JP rush. Infact you don't even need a 2nd hive to win the game, its not only possible but quite common for an alien win to come from a mid-game cara skulk rush, or counter-rush following a defended JP hit. And even when the counter rush doesn't win you the game, defending a rush and countering buys you the time needed for a gorge to get OCs up in a second hive. This is a tech rush you're playing against, they don't have a turret farm in their base, or 50 IPs and an obs ready to beacon, they're probably even quite slim on weapon and armour upgrades, and you're countering with full cara after defending a JP hit, when the freshly spawned marines have LA/LMG and are happily humping their armoury.
Trying to rush for a 2nd hive before you have defended the rush or are adequately prepared to deal with one is whats going to get you killed, which is exactly what i see time and time again on public servers. You follow that gem of intelligence with 2 paragraphs that can basically be summed up as "If you do that they will have JP/HMG before you have fades" well congratulations Mr. Holmes you've revolutionized the world of NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerks help, but any smart marine will target the LERKS if he is taking too much damage anyway. 10 bullets from LVL1 HMG = lerk dead. (10 bullets = 2 seconds of HMG fire = cakewalk) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your smart marines haven't played much NS, and you clearly haven't tried this if you believe you can just kill a lerk sitting ontop of a hive, next to 3 DCs. The lerk in this scenario is more or less unkillable, the only factor is wether the lerk can kill the JPer before he kills the hive. There is no way you are about to kill a small target, partially if not completely covered by the hives hitbox, with a high level of damage absorbtion, sitting next to an ungodly amount of healing capability. I've been on both the giving and the recieving end of this more times than i can count and let me tell you now - that lerk isnt going anywhere. Hell i've sat in viaduct, 3 DCs, no OCs, no support against FOUR JP/HMGs under constant ammo and health spam and they couldn't touch me untill the DCs were down. With no assistance at all i eventually went down, but i sat there spiking them through an absolute assload of HMG ammo drops which they foolishly tried to expend on me. If you want to drop a lerk in this scenario you're going to want grenade launchers, nevermind your LMG rushes....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, as was mentioned, the author of this mod thinks you're wrong (in principle) since he will be addressing the 'tech rush' in the next patch. As I said initially, this thread was moreso about mines than anything. Thanks for keeping it on topic... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the author of this mod thinks the marines have an advantage in clanplay, and that is unrelated to this discussion. You think a JP rush is unstoppable and a marine team need only to sit in their base and tech to win any game, which is the discussion you brought forward so i am completely on topic. And i think you're a clueless jackass who needs to start playing a few games as marines and improve your understanding of the mod.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Twisted Master build order for LMG/JP rush <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That build doesn't work because the arms lab is a prerequisit for the protolab wether you use HMGs or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, in your first example, I don't believe you are properly displaying normal time frames of aliens. Gorge move pretty damn slow to go first off. That would mean time between each drop. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He has 2 minutes to get to the res node, somehow i don't think he's that slow....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When did OC towers ever do ANYTHING vs. JP unless they were literally clogging a hallway? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trying to use them to clog a hallway is exactly why they aren't doing anything. OCs on route to the hive have very little chance of stopping a decent JPer who will be able to fly past. If you want them to do anything, you put them where the JP has to be in order to shoot the hive. With 4 OCs in a hiveroom, anything shooting the hive has a timelimit before death. OCs will hit JPers no matter how they dodge, as long as you force the JPer to be in line of sight while he shoots the hive then you'll wear his health down quickly. There are only 2 things at hive1 that give me trouble as a seasoned JPer - OCs in line of sight of where im trying to float, and lerks standing on a hive who know how to aim. In some hives it is necessary to place OCs in unnusual spots, Silo is a pain because any OCs placed on the floor wont do much to a JPer at the top of the room. Place them on the high ledges however, and you're in business.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TeoH your economics modle fails to account for carapace costs, lost res time becuase of being in the spawn que <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, take another look at the economy simulator, it accounts for both of those.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 You dont have to kill the hive in a few seconds if you rush it quickly. All you have to do is kill most the aleins and cover the doors to kill the resta(a lck down). 2 With on hive aleins will spawn in perdictible spots ever 8 seconds and you will have about a second to kill them before ther fully "in the game" 3 So want if they have a OT or two or three, those thing go down like cheap **** to LMGs when the guy carring it knows how to kill em( shoot low, find a spot where you can hit it but it cant hit you <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pre-carapace rushes on a hive are possible and common, infact they are usually a part of an effective JP rush. But getting into a lockdown situation against a competant alien team is not just something you snap your fingers and do, holding off early rushes is not amazingly difficult. They are however effective for pressure and delay. Sitting down and killing the odd OC is unrelated to my proposed use of them, as ranged support in addition to a full defending alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and the fact that a gorge moves slow and dies quickly <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this gets to the heart of my point. As you'll see from my first post in this thread my argument is that a JP rush without adequate pressure can be convincingly stopped by a prepared alien team. Killing gorges, res towers and taking down DCs with offensive pressure is the effective way to perform a JP hit, and this style of play involves all the complexities of NS combat, marines and aliens harrassing and rushing eachother, fights over resources and anything you can do to delay the other team. You'll notice i also didn't account for any skulk attacks on the marines, no chomped res nodes or upgraded armouries lying in pieces. Savant commented earlier in this thread that a marine team can simply sit in its base, mine entrances and tech while holding res nodes. I'm claiming this isnt effective.
Aight, I'd say that's a pretty good defense there, but I still have yet to see aliens stop a good JP rush. Maybe I missed a server or something, I'll keep looking for it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> I can see where your tactics would work...in about half of the hives. But if aliens start off in a really big open hive (ns_hera, Archiving I believe? and Via or was that cargo?) then most of those tactics go out the window. It's not totally impossible to stop a JP rush, but it's damned hard. Being a mostly alien player myself I don't see where aliens have any tactic they can use that's anything like this until the second hive and/or capping of 5+ res nodes. I use my ol', "Wall up the Wazoo" tactic then. Build OT's and DC's EVERYWHERE and let the marines run into a big ol' batch of trouble getting anywhere <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Good Post Teo!
P.S. Most people seem to be afraid of having multiple gorges even after the second hive...don't be, that's how I get my team to win most of the games <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> When you've got two hives, you've got at least 5 res nodes, you're rolling in the res and 2...maybe even THREE gorges can build some mighty good walls and defensive fallbacks for all the offensive aliens. If you're really good you might even build OFFENSIVELY, I mean directly into the line of fire of turrets. Just build a couple DCs and then OCs behind a wall and then build OCs out in line of fire and the DCs should take care of the OCs with some help from you unless you seriously built up some massive DC center <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Mar 24 2003, 06:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 24 2003, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> DMS wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i was "introduced" to the idea of the tech rush a few games ago. For me its not a tech rush at all, its a "lazy useless alien side sitting there scratching their backsides" strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spoken as someone who only plays marines obviously <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> oh come on, are you going to tell me the colour of my underwear next? ;-)
Of course i play aliens, and currently probably aliens more 'cause a certain mate is practicing his leap skill!
I've had plenty of well organised alien sides demolish marine teams even if they contained decent players through the magic "co-ordinated attack". If you dont let the marines get resources its gonna be hard for them to rush you, if you keep hassling their base it'll be hard for them to survive!
Sure in some conditions 1 or 2 really decent marines can defend their base against 5 skulks (someone suggested this) but these marines can happily be left in the base whilst your friendly neighbourhood gorge gets the resources the marines arent holding.
TeoH wrote:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want to bring up your back catalogue of fantastic ideas on how to screw over key parts of the marine game or enhance the aliens in ways which make no sense whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference is that you sem to only be concerned with keeping the status quo. Anything that comes between you and 'pwning' the alien team is BAD! God forbid we actually balance the game to make it enjoyable for all, you're only interested in your own fun and screw anyone who begs to differ. (I bet you don't think bunny hopping is an exploit either right?) I play the game from BOTH sides and am not biased when it comes to proposing changes. If the aliens were too strong (as fades were in the previous patch) I would say so. Right now they are not. Like I said, I'll take Flayra's word over yours anyday.
I was going to reply to the rest of your post, but once you start slinging personal insults you forfeit any chance of being taken seriously by me. Perhaps when you grow up and can carry a conversation without these childish insults, we can debate in future.
In the meanwhile, why don't you go and enjoy your 'exploits' while they last.
TeoH, I agree with what you say about Aliens being able to defend a JP rush. Some I disagree with though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You won't get a 2nd hive before a JP rush unless you practically sacrifice any chance of winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't agree more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Trying to rush for a 2nd hive before you have defended the rush or are adequately prepared to deal with one is whats going to get you killed, which is exactly what i see time and time again on public servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats statement summarizes Alien play on a tpyical public server perfectly. I can't tell you how many times people complain for their Gorge to get the second Hive up, then refuse to protect said Gorge. Whats worse is they do it before the economy can support it. <b>A second Hive does no good when you have no res to get Fades fast, or no res to defend it, or you sacrafice DC's to get it.</b> This is not 1.03, two Hives does not equal win anymore. I cringe when I see the second Hive go up before DC's. Because I know when the JP rush comes I am going to have to fight in the second hive minus Carapace and minus DC's to heal me faster. It's even worse if they get to it as it's building since you have no healing at all. Which brings me to the next point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your smart marines haven't played much NS, and you clearly haven't tried this if you believe you can just kill a lerk sitting ontop of a hive, next to 3 DCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, in agreeance. When JP rushed I stay Skulk (No good with a Lerk, rather overflow to my Gorge) and crawl up on walls and can usually get the JP'ers. The stupid ones will panic when they get hit and try and land in the health spam. Thats when I chomp 'em.
The increased healing rate of the Hive was a really good move by the dev team as like you said with the Lerk, getting healed by the Hive and three DC's is tough to overcome. Obviously the Lerks superior armor helps more but I have good mobility with the Skulk and most people have real difficulty flying and aiming at the same time.
What people need to understand is they are coming to get you. It makes no sense to engage JP'ers coming for Maintainence in Keyhole. If they want to shoot that hive, <b>make them come in and fight you for it</b>. The Hive is health spam that auto-targets and heals the instant you take damage. Exploit this feature.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are only 2 things at hive1 that give me trouble as a seasoned JPer - OCs in line of sight of where im trying to float, and lerks standing on a hive who know how to aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is where I disagree. With a little bit of experience a JP'er can stay airborne indefinately. Meaning they have extreme mobility. OC's have trouble hitting stationary targets. Try hostifying a LAN game with -dev in the command line so stuff builds real fast. Build some Marine structures then switch to the Alien side. Place a single OC near the Marine structure (about 8 feet away) and watch the OC miss the immoble target thats twice it's size. Some times the green gob will hit the structure but other times it will flat out miss.
If you circle strafe in air around the Hive the OC's just won't hit you unless there is like half a dozen of them and you fly into them. As a skulk I'd rather the 14 res be spent on another DC to heal me while I fight the JP'er. Maybe it's just me but when I JP (very rarely, Alien for life) I ignore the OC's. It's just the Lerks that mess me up. Which goes back to what you said above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And this gets to the heart of my point. As you'll see from my first post in this thread my argument is that a JP rush without adequate pressure can be convincingly stopped by a prepared alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there's the gaping hole in your plan. Right now most knoweledgeable (not skilled, knoweledgeable) players will go Marine since they know most Alien players will fall apart mentally at the sight of a JP. <----Btw it's about time the sight of my initials strike fear into peoples minds. Anyways most refuse to believe a single Lerk well placed or a few Skulks supporting a Lerk can repel a rush. People, with a little patience and a Hive+3 DC's a single Skulk can easily hold off 2 JP/LMG'ers. It gets more complicated when they have HMG's or there is 5 of them but that makes the payoff even greater.
Instead what happens is after a few games of JP beatdown the Aliens get into the mindset of "OMG get second Hive now" and as TeoH said, that blows your game. Hopefully TeoH's insightful post will wake some Alien players up to the fact that we have to fight the fight, not let it come to us from the very beginning.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->fights over resources and anything you can do to delay the other team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That should be tattooed on the carapace of every Skulk, on the gut of every Gorge, and on the wing of every Lerk. I could go on for pages about tactics on res node warfare but it would be easier to explain in conversation rather than in a forum post.
There is a time and a place to hide in your Hive, and thats when the JP's are inbound. Not in the first five minutes of the game where Marines are basically having free reign over the map securing res for JP's.
You can't be purely reactive as Alien. You have to be proactive.
researching mines might make them come in a little later in the game: instead of just going for JPs they'd either have to stop there, or go to JPs without mines...having they come in at advanced armory would still make them a factor in the game, but would also ruin the early laming of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--l337 l3|2K+Mar 25 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (l337 l3|2K @ Mar 25 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> researching mines might make them come in a little later in the game: instead of just going for JPs they'd either have to stop there, or go to JPs without mines...having they come in at advanced armory would still make them a factor in the game, but would also ruin the early laming of them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mines are for 1-hive defense. Making them come out later just destroys the point of it.
Ok as I see it, soem things people compalin about as being unfair is just tactic in my eyes. Placing mines around the entrance to a hive is a tactic. There is no overadvantage to any team since marines lose resources placing mines and at the sam time makes it harder for hive level one aliens to get inside the mined room. Isn't this the point of mines in the firstplace? Next well get people who complain that placing turrets ina triangle fashion around a TF is too difficult to attack.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--BarxBaron+Mar 25 2003, 08:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BarxBaron @ Mar 25 2003, 08:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> aliens have no reason to complain about marine res. economy when they get redemption (I.E. free resource costing classes after they 'die' )
redemp fades are the most annoying thing in this game right now imo besides the fact that everyone wants JPs and never uses HA <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Played a game where all the aliens grabbed redemption. Was quite funny - they just couldn't attack! As soon as they tried to assault our base, we shot at them and they redempted. Again and again. Finally, they had to /kill themselves and get themselves some carapace in order to kill us.
It's not so strange ... a redempt Fade only takes 29 lmg shots to kill. Assuming redemption kicks in at 25% he can only take about 15-20 lmg shots before redemption. That's about a skulk ... for a far larger and slower target.
Only thing a redemp fade for is acid-rocket sniping at undefended positions... granted, getting redemption rather than carap if you just manage to get fade before 2nd hive is down again may be a good idea...
Personally I think mines are perfectly balanced as they are <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm a good trip-miner I often get 4/5 mine kill ratio. BUT! I got good at after a long time and much practice! And more often than not most good players as aliens are getting very crafty at avoiding them. Therefore even if mines are used effectively the aliens still have a fair chance of winning. Also mines are only good for the first half of the game 'cos by the time the aliens get to fade the mines are useless! One acid rocket usually just sets all the mines off in an area.
Leave 'em as they are and get better at avoiding them. ;p
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Besides...in tourny mode mines do get blown u[ by other mines, AND they hurt marines and marine structures (at the standard 1/3 damage of ff). This is the reason I'm actually using mines less and less in clan matches. Used to think they were really good. Now they're just so-so and used occasionally for support.
My proposal: Get rid of the distiction between tourny and casual mode. Actually, eliminate casual mode. I'l like to have ff all the time.
TeoH is right, Savant is the childish one dismissing DMS with his holier than thou attitude:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spoken as someone who only plays marines obviously ... Please, please aliens 12 times in a row and THEN come back and say that. (words roughly as I remember them)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is blatant hypocrisy, coming from this lame sod who can't even blow up mines as a gorge, yet professes to know everything about the game.
WHY CAN'T YOU JUST WAIT FOR 1.1 like the rest of us, instead of posting every insignificant gripe (and I believe the one you're posting about is completely unfounded anyway) until it comes out.
Go away, practice blowing up mines as a gorge, and come back when you've you've grown out of being such a hypocrit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is where I disagree. With a little bit of experience a JP'er can stay airborne indefinately. Meaning they have extreme mobility. OC's have trouble hitting stationary targets. Try hostifying a LAN game with -dev in the command line so stuff builds real fast. Build some Marine structures then switch to the Alien side. Place a single OC near the Marine structure (about 8 feet away) and watch the OC miss the immoble target thats twice it's size. Some times the green gob will hit the structure but other times it will flat out miss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, i have a rock solid 99 fps so i can just hold jump and stay permanently pressed against the cieling if i wanted too, don't really have to tell me about perpetual flight :)
Something i need to mention about OCs which might not be widley known. The flying goo you see on your screen is unrelated to the damage dealt. It doesn't matter where the goo goes, the goo isnt dealing the damage. You can stand still and have the goo hit you directly in the face and take no damage. And you can watch the goo hit a wall a good distance away from you and have it hurt you. OCs are wildly innaccurate i'll give you that, and in some cases you can stand still infront of one and have it miss several hits, but the thing is, their hitting percentage while you are moving is not significantly different to when you are standing still. In your example with the marine structure, you have no real way of verifying wether the OC is hitting or not, because as i mentioned, the goo has nothing to do with the damage.
I ran some tests on it recently to get an idea of the firing behaviour. While it is possible to avoid hits to a degree, OCs spread out through a hive will still deal significant damage to a JPer. Circling the hive does reduce the chance of them hitting you, but it isnt always simple to circle the hive - you have medpacks to pickup and skulks to avoid. Jetpackers would ideally love to just float away from the cieling or floor, shooting while skulks cannot reach them, and OCs/Lerks will kill this style of jetpacking very quickly. I recorded a few tests, the gorge is not fantastically co-operative here and we have a few too many OCs at times, but i think its a decent watch for anyone who is interested in the OC behaviour:
This is done in eclipse hive because it has some space for circling. Some other hives bring up additional points, Silo for example usually demonstrates a situation where you have a JPer directly above OCs, and a long way up. I tend to find that in power silo with OCs on the floor, even a floating JPer who is at the top of the hive room will not take any damage from the OCs. This is possibly some sort of vertical limit on the damage. Placing OCs on the high ledges deals with this problem adequately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a skulk I'd rather the 14 res be spent on another DC to heal me while I fight the JP'er. Maybe it's just me but when I JP (very rarely, Alien for life) I ignore the OC's. It's just the Lerks that mess me up. Which goes back to what you said above. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the problem with additional healing for lerks/skulks is that most JPers will acknowledge the fact that you are more or less invincible with the standard hive+3DC healing, and will try to simply kill the hive as fast as possible. Unloading HMG straight into the hive and attempting to dodge any aliens is usually the most effective way to take a hive down, and in this circumstance the additional healing to lerks does very little. However, the healing effect that the DCs have on the hive is an important consideration, it should be mentioned that a health spraying gorge is a definate asset when you are trying to save a hive. Infact against a LMG/JP rush, a gorge under the hive spraying can completely negate the damage of a LMG. With a HMG it is not as helpful, but still worth doing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And there's the gaping hole in your plan. Right now most knoweledgeable (not skilled, knoweledgeable) players will go Marine since they know most Alien players will fall apart mentally at the sight of a JP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hah, well yes i did make the assumption that the alien team weren't clueless, sorry about that ;)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> why don't you go and enjoy your 'exploits' while they last. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you're fantastic. You managed to completely ignore all of my post, and dodge the subject of actually answering me by branding me an "exploiter". Thus in some strange way dismissing me, because if you've labelled me an "exploiter" i can't possibly have anything meaningful to say on the subject of mines, JPs and OCs right? How on earth have you managed to go from a discussion of tech rushes, mines and JP defence, to whining about me bunnyhopping? Let me take a wild guess here: You watched my gorge demo... and managed to completely miss the fact that i consistantly detonated mine after mine, because at some point in the demo you saw me do a little bunnyhop. And of course, regardless of the actual content of the demo, if i bunnyhopped at some point it must be an abomination unleashed upon mankind. OH NOES BUNNYHOPPING GORGE!! SAVE ME JESUS!!11
I play in a league that explicity permits bunnyhopping in its rules, so i'll hop all i like thankyou very much. Now would you like to actually address any of my post or are you just going to run off screaming "the bunnyhoppers are coming! THE BUNNYHOPPERS AER COMING!!1"? And on an unrelated note, not being taken seriously by you is more of a prize than a forfeit.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I can't blow up floor or roof mines with spit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is because you're doing it wrong, nubcaeks. Aim half a foot above the mine (Below it if its a roof mine).
Not to mention that a gorge with regen can walk over a mine, detonate it, heal, detonate another one, heal, ad nauseum.
Its certainly well known that there is a problem with the resouce model which favours aliens in small teams and marines in large teams. Do not complain about tech rushing when you're playing on a 20 player server, clan matches are played 6v6 for a reason.
If you want to tech rush a good alien team with reasonable team sizes, you are very unlikely to get away with just sitting in your base and teching up. If you do not pressure, and give aliens free reign of the map you allow them to prepare defence. As well as practically inviting skulks to harass your resources/plan rushes to chomp your armoury. A full JP rush can still be held back by 1/2 competant lerks and OCs *in* the hive, rather than unsuccesfully blocking some doorway in the middle of nowhere, and by sitting on your **** while you tech you allow aliens to prepare this. This is why succesfully pressuring an alien team, hunting gorges, killing DCs and res towers and containing skulks in their hive is a key component of a good tech strat. And the outcome of these pressure tactics most likely decide the game. On the majority of maps resource towers are split out in such a way that trying to defend 3 locations with 5 marines without phases is not realistic. You are spread too thin to prevent a 5 skulk team hitting one tower, then hitting another. Mines are a combat suppliment or a trap for dozy skulks, on their own they do not prevent a skulk from chomping a tower. The bite range is long enough to chomp a tower from behind a mine placed at its base, towers can be chomped from above, or while sticking to a wall beside it. With the marines killed the tower will fall mines or no mines. This is why it is necessary to occupy the skulks with something else, like defending their hive. If you don't attack them, they are going to attack you.
Now for the first time in a thread like this i'm actually going to back up my post with something:
<a href='http://nakyveci.wz.cz/NSEcoSim.html' target='_blank'>http://nakyveci.wz.cz/NSEcoSim.html</a>
Zubata's economy simulator. Load it and perform the following build orders:
6 players for both teams.
Marines:
1 IP
Armoury
Advance 30 seconds
Spend 16 res (2 mine packs)
Armslab
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Resource tower
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 10 seconds
Resource tower
Advance 30 seconds
lv1 armour
Advance 30 seconds
Spend 16 res (2 mine packs)
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Protolab
Advance 30 seconds
Research JP
Advance 30 seconds
Upgrade armoury
Advance 30 seconds
Advance untill you have 100 res (3 JP/HMG guys)
Total time for build: 7 minutes 10 seconds to get the rush going.
This is a reasonably slim build, with 1 IP and no obs for beacon, nothing gets chomped and the marines keep hold of 3 RTs. I only dropped 4 mine packs, if a carapace skulk rush hit at the right time the marines may well be in trouble with 1 IP and no distress beacon. Now the alien build:
Advance 20 seconds
1 Gorge
Kill all skulks on the skulk rush
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
kill 2 skulks
Advance 30 seconds
Drop RT, gorge actively building
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Drop OC in hive
Drop OC in hive
1 skulk go lerk
1 skulk go gorge
Drop OC in hive
Advance 30 seconds
Drop OC in hive
1 skulk go lerk
Total time for this is around 5:50, you have 2 lerks, 2 gorges, full carapace and 4 OCs in the hive, as well as res to drop more, its also possible for the 2nd gorge to get a res tower first, then proceed to place OCs. You can have 2 lerks and carapace at around 4 minutes, and the longer the match lasts the more defence you can place at the hive.
And if you're wondering about a high speed recycle rush, try the following with 6 players:
IP
Armoury
Arms lab
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Protolab
Recycle Arms lab (give 22 res)
Research JP
Advance 30 seconds
Recycle IP (Give 11 res)
Upgrade armoury
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop 1 JP and 1 HMG
This is pretty much the most obscene tech rush you can pull off, even going to the point of recycling the IP and with no mines being placed. The time for this in a 6v6 game? 4 minutes 30 seconds. Compare that against the above alien build and you'll just how innaccurate the "guarunteed win" crap is.
Prepare to defend against JPs, harrass marine res and tech structures to slow the tech speed, defend the rush with lerks and OCs and then counter immediately with a carapace skulk rush. This is how you beat a plain 'sit in your base and defend' tech rush.
This will REALLY slow down the res (teams get res even without rt's) making their tech rush a silly strategy since it will cost them dearly. This will force them to turtle in their pathetic marine spawn and hold off the attackers with the standard load out (no hard feelings to the comm who'll cop the blame for that)
lol
AHHHHHH!!!!!! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> umm r u quite finished yet? <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> oh sorry.
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I think clan matches are played 6vs6 because someone pulled that number out of their **** without giving much thought to how it plays. "hey this is some kind of alien Counter-Strike ain't it? We'll just copy paste the tournament rules from CS. Done! New league created". Perhaps they did know what they were doing, but I disagree. Why not 7vs7? Clearly more fun. At 8vs8 games you get the unfortunate first bonus to economy ticks and it starts sliding towards marine superiority.
I think clan matches are played 6vs6 because someone pulled that number out of their **** without giving much thought to how it plays. "hey this is some kind of alien Counter-Strike ain't it? We'll just copy paste the tournament rules from CS.
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Initially, you're probably right. But we wouldn't still be using it if it didn't work. Also:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Why not 7vs7? Clearly more fun
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I don't get your logic, why is it 'clearly' more fun :)
After 1.1 is out, teams will probably experiment with larger team sizes, i admit there are some nice advantages to larger teams. As it is though, marines pretty much have the edge in clanplay, and if the eco simulator is anything to go by, 7v7 knocks a minute off the first JP rush build, while giving very little benefit to the aliens. (additional res is soaked up by the additional skulk, gorges see no benefit at all untill everyone is maxed.)
Large team sizes at the moment would probably kill clanplay, 7v7 is a grey area.
I just reckon mines should be hit by gorges easier and be a bit more volatile and harm any marines near them when they blow.
Im also a mine popper, luv taking one for the team, im also very notorious for blowing mates up that get too close when im clearing them. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
redemp fades are the most annoying thing in this game right now imo besides the fact that everyone wants JPs and never uses HA
the only *real* res. probs come from larger teams givin' marines a good res. advantage..........hopefulyl 1.1 shall address that
ugh I also just noticed.......everyone wants it so that when a mine blows in non-turney it hurts everything?
I thought you guys didnt wanna make them useless? If this was in palce I can gurantee mines would never be used.....at all
which would make me sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
People have got to learn not just to go for a mindless rush for the second hive. By doing so your asking for a rush of your choice to kill you. If you prepare yourself for it you can beat it. Sure, you delay the 2nd hive a bit, but you'll have a defended first hive and level 3 carapace.
What you have got to do is to get skulks running into marine base, causing as much havoc as possible and reporting on what they're doing. Then you can plan accordingly.
No Teoh, it's not "I" complain, it's that Flayra has said marines are too strong.
Yuno what?
Considering he WROTE the game, I think I'll take his word over your haughty attitude in this regard. Again, let me recap here. If I was to hear two opinions on a matter, one from you and one from Flayra, then your word = garbage and Flayra's word = gold. Thanks for your understanding in this matter. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is because you're doing it wrong, nubcaeks. Aim half a foot above the mine (Below it if its a roof mine).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resorting to insults now? Wow... How mature of you. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've seen clan gorges do JUST as you describe and the mines have not gone off. Frankly if I'm a gorge I don't have 10 minutes to waste trying to figure out the 'magic spot' on a mine when people are marching on the hive. Yes you can make them go off 'sometimes', but that's not the point here. (does the phrase 'straw man' mean anything to you?)
Your calculations are also flawed. I'm not going to go into detail, (since it's not the point of the thread, it's been done in other threads - use the search function) but sufficient to say even if you have a marine team that doesn't go 'full out' in a tech rush, they can still EASILY beat the aliens.
Why? While you were busy playing with the res model toy, you forgot to take into account a SECOND HIVE. Yuno that big fancy thing that gives aliens the additional evolutions. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the aliens use one OR two gorges and go straight for a second hive, then the absolute fastest you will see fades is 12 minutes. Usually it is closer to 15 minutes because of resource issues and being dead in the spawn queue. (each time waiting to spawn and not getting res and spawning then using 2 res to get carapace adds up) If you delay the second hive you have an even longer wait. If you give marines 20 minutes with no fades they WILL finish the game for you.
That gives them PLENTY of time to tech up and still hit the hive with JP/HMG and not have to worry about fades. Heck, if they took 10 minutes they could pull it off with ease. Lerks help, but any smart marine will target the LERKS if he is taking too much damage anyway. 10 bullets from LVL1 HMG = lerk dead. (10 bullets = 2 seconds of HMG fire = cakewalk)
Anyway, as was mentioned, the author of this mod thinks you're wrong (in principle) since he will be addressing the 'tech rush' in the next patch. As I said initially, this thread was moreso about mines than anything. Thanks for keeping it on topic...
Regards,
Savant
if you cant get two hives youve lost allready
if they're jp rushing they wont lock down hives /w mines
if they lock down hives with mines you wait outside for them to run inside
again, you have to prevent them from getting to their goal, no matter how early in game.
only change id make to mines is make them vuln to ff and make the nearest mine in range blow up.
I.e. m= mine (=max range ( m1 m2 m3 ) mine 1 is closer to mine 2 so when mine 2 blows, mine one goes, but not mine 3
Advance 20 seconds
1 Gorge
Kill all skulks on the skulk rush
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
kill 2 skulks
Advance 30 seconds
Drop RT, gorge actively building
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Drop OC in hive
Drop OC in hive
1 skulk go lerk
1 skulk go gorge
Drop OC in hive
Advance 30 seconds
Drop OC in hive
1 skulk go lerk
Total time for this is around 5:50, you have 2 lerks, 2 gorges, full carapace and 4 OCs in the hive, as well as res to drop more, its also possible for the 2nd gorge to get a res tower first, then proceed to place OCs. You can have 2 lerks and carapace at around 4 minutes, and the longer the match lasts the more defence you can place at the hive.
And if you're wondering about a high speed recycle rush, try the following with 6 players:
IP
Armoury
Arms lab
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Protolab
Recycle Arms lab (give 22 res)
Research JP
Advance 30 seconds
Recycle IP (Give 11 res)
Upgrade armoury
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop 1 JP and 1 HMG
This is pretty much the most obscene tech rush you can pull off, even going to the point of recycling the IP and with no mines being placed. The time for this in a 6v6 game? 4 minutes 30 seconds. Compare that against the above alien build and you'll just how innaccurate the "guarunteed win" crap is.
Prepare to defend against JPs, harrass marine res and tech structures to slow the tech speed, defend the rush with lerks and OCs and then counter immediately with a carapace skulk rush. This is how you beat a plain 'sit in your base and defend' tech rush. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, in your first example, I don't believe you are properly displaying normal time frames of aliens. Gorge move pretty damn slow to go first off. That would mean time between each drop. But anyway, cutting all that out, how does that help if the marines have JP again? When did OC towers ever do ANYTHING vs. JP unless they were literally clogging a hallway? When you can JP up onto a hive and blast it to smitherines, that pretty much puts those useless OCs to rest. One lerk will not take out a hoard of JPers. Esp without umbra.
Onto your marine incident. Even the fast one is too slow here, I've seen it done and can attest to it that it CAN be done in about 3.5 minutes. That's right, JP rush at 3.5. However, that's no hmg/jp rush, just lmg, but when skulks don't even have their first D tower down, what does it matter? Take your example and cut out as follows:
IP
Armoury
Protolab
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Research JP
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
DROP 4 JPs for marines that have full ammo clips with lmg (or 6 if you recycle your IP or Armoury)
Advance 30 seconds
**
**
KILL HIVE HERE
**
**
During all this while, after you have everything set up, you could even consider sending out marines to cap more res nodes or drop your mines, or start on hmg or whatevever you wanted. Besides that, unlike your model, you'll have 4 marines with JP, not 1, not 2 not 3 but 4. If you recycled anything you could get your whole team equipped and rush it, even yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Skulks at this time will not have the ability to kill you in most hives, without leap they just cant do it. Lerks will be non-existant. So what's to stop a GOOD team of marines from raping the hive? Nothing... Not even if you were ALL THE SKULK YOU CAN BE! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
In my opion any more then 2 Res towers is a waste for 'rines since the 3rd wont have time to pay for its self before you win. You allso only need one IP becuase no matter how good the aleins are a good team of marines trumps sulks when there on the defence (barring incredible luck/ mishapps). The HMG is not all that nessisary as 3 or 4 LMGs can lock down and then kill a hive pretty easy.
Something to think about,. 1 You dont have to kill the hive in a few seconds if you rush it quickly. All you have to do is kill most the aleins and cover the doors to kill the resta(a lck down). 2 With on hive aleins will spawn in perdictible spots ever 8 seconds and you will have about a second to kill them before ther fully "in the game" 3 So want if they have a OT or two or three, those thing go down like cheap **** to LMGs when the guy carring it knows how to kill em( shoot low, find a spot where you can hit it but it cant hit you) 4 TeoH your economics modle fails to account for carapace costs, lost res time becuase of being in the spawn que and the fact that a gorge moves slow and dies quickly. You can easly add another minute to that just by killing a gorge
Advance 20 seconds
1 Gorge
Kill all skulks on the skulk rush
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
kill 2 skulks
Advance 30 seconds
Drop RT, gorge actively building
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Drop DC
Advance 30 seconds
Drop OC in hive
Drop OC in hive
1 skulk go lerk
1 skulk go gorge
Drop OC in hive
Advance 30 seconds
Drop OC in hive
1 skulk go lerk
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there are a couple of huge flaws with your alien strat. Essentially, you sacrifice your entire economy and any reasonable chance of winning for the sake of defending against the jp rush.
Up thru 1 res and 3 dcs, all is well. However, there are a few vital elements missing in the rest of the build. You will need more than one (edit: beyond your starting) res tower to win the game,and this is completely absent here. Also, if the aliens try to effectively defend the first hive (you drop 4 ocs and 3 dcs, + have a lerk), they severely damage their ability to get a second hive (which is the only point at which they should win, sans poor marine play). Combine both of these, and the alien economy is completely screwed. The marines will easily be able to afford a second or even third rush (likely with better weapons and armor) by the time you even start your second hive, let alone have a chance to defend it. Sadly, this method is the equivalent of the marines building nothing but turrets: it only delays the inevitable.
No Teoh, it's not "I" complain, it's that Flayra has said marines are too strong.
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You're not complaining? Explain to me what this thread is for then? If you'd read the rest of my posts you would have seen me state clearly that i thought marines held the advantage in a clan game, but this isnt the issue. You've made suggestion after illogical suggestion that have all managed to miss any of the real reasons why marines hold an advantage. I don't want to bring up your back catalogue of <i>fantastic</i> ideas on how to screw over key parts of the marine game or enhance the aliens in ways which make no sense whatsoever. I'm here to address 3 points:
Mines being some sort of overpowered super weapon.
Gorges being incapable of destroying mines
JP rush being some sort of guarunteed win without requiring any form of pressure or offensive play, simply by sitting in your base and holding onto res nodes, thus requiring "no skill".
If you think the latter is off-topic, you might want to re-read this thread, as much of it (Including your own posts) concern JPs and tech rushing.
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Resorting to insults now? Wow... How mature of you. ???
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When <i>nubcaeks</i> becomes an insult, i'll eat your straw man. If i wanted to insult him i'd have called him a clueless newb unfit to lick feaces off my doormat. Nubcaeks is the internet equivalent of a deft jab in the shoulder.
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I've seen clan gorges do JUST as you describe and the mines have not gone off. Frankly if I'm a gorge I don't have 10 minutes to waste trying to figure out the 'magic spot' on a mine when people are marching on the hive. Yes you can make them go off 'sometimes', but that's not the point here. (does the phrase 'straw man' mean anything to you?)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/TeoH/gorgevsmines.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/TeoH/gorgevsmines.zip</a>
Watch. Learn. Go aweh.
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Why? While you were busy playing with the res model toy, you forgot to take into account a SECOND HIVE. Yuno that big fancy thing that gives aliens the additional evolutions. :p
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea that a 2nd hive as early as possible is a necessity is the main reason people like you seem to believe the rush is unstoppable. Here's a news flash: You won't get a 2nd hive before a JP rush unless you practically sacrifice any chance of winning. And here's another little burst of genious: You don't need a 2nd hive to defend a JP rush. Infact you don't even need a 2nd hive to win the game, its not only possible but quite common for an alien win to come from a mid-game cara skulk rush, or counter-rush following a defended JP hit. And even when the counter rush doesn't win you the game, defending a rush and countering buys you the time needed for a gorge to get OCs up in a second hive. This is a tech rush you're playing against, they don't have a turret farm in their base, or 50 IPs and an obs ready to beacon, they're probably even quite slim on weapon and armour upgrades, and you're countering with full cara after defending a JP hit, when the freshly spawned marines have LA/LMG and are happily humping their armoury.
Trying to rush for a 2nd hive before you have defended the rush or are adequately prepared to deal with one is whats going to get you killed, which is exactly what i see time and time again on public servers. You follow that gem of intelligence with 2 paragraphs that can basically be summed up as "If you do that they will have JP/HMG before you have fades" well congratulations Mr. Holmes you've revolutionized the world of NS.
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Lerks help, but any smart marine will target the LERKS if he is taking too much damage anyway. 10 bullets from LVL1 HMG = lerk dead. (10 bullets = 2 seconds of HMG fire = cakewalk)
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Your smart marines haven't played much NS, and you clearly haven't tried this if you believe you can just kill a lerk sitting ontop of a hive, next to 3 DCs. The lerk in this scenario is more or less unkillable, the only factor is wether the lerk can kill the JPer before he kills the hive. There is no way you are about to kill a small target, partially if not completely covered by the hives hitbox, with a high level of damage absorbtion, sitting next to an ungodly amount of healing capability. I've been on both the giving and the recieving end of this more times than i can count and let me tell you now - that lerk isnt going anywhere. Hell i've sat in viaduct, 3 DCs, no OCs, no support against FOUR JP/HMGs under constant ammo and health spam and they couldn't touch me untill the DCs were down. With no assistance at all i eventually went down, but i sat there spiking them through an absolute assload of HMG ammo drops which they foolishly tried to expend on me. If you want to drop a lerk in this scenario you're going to want grenade launchers, nevermind your LMG rushes....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Anyway, as was mentioned, the author of this mod thinks you're wrong (in principle) since he will be addressing the 'tech rush' in the next patch. As I said initially, this thread was moreso about mines than anything. Thanks for keeping it on topic...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the author of this mod thinks the marines have an advantage in clanplay, and that is unrelated to this discussion. You think a JP rush is unstoppable and a marine team need only to sit in their base and tech to win any game, which is the discussion you brought forward so i am completely on topic. And i think you're a clueless jackass who needs to start playing a few games as marines and improve your understanding of the mod.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Twisted Master build order for LMG/JP rush
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That build doesn't work because the arms lab is a prerequisit for the protolab wether you use HMGs or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Ok, in your first example, I don't believe you are properly displaying normal time frames of aliens. Gorge move pretty damn slow to go first off. That would mean time between each drop.
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He has 2 minutes to get to the res node, somehow i don't think he's that slow....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
When did OC towers ever do ANYTHING vs. JP unless they were literally clogging a hallway?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trying to use them to clog a hallway is exactly why they aren't doing anything. OCs on route to the hive have very little chance of stopping a decent JPer who will be able to fly past. If you want them to do anything, you put them where the JP has to be in order to shoot the hive. With 4 OCs in a hiveroom, anything shooting the hive has a timelimit before death. OCs will hit JPers no matter how they dodge, as long as you force the JPer to be in line of sight while he shoots the hive then you'll wear his health down quickly. There are only 2 things at hive1 that give me trouble as a seasoned JPer - OCs in line of sight of where im trying to float, and lerks standing on a hive who know how to aim. In some hives it is necessary to place OCs in unnusual spots, Silo is a pain because any OCs placed on the floor wont do much to a JPer at the top of the room. Place them on the high ledges however, and you're in business.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
TeoH your economics modle fails to account for carapace costs, lost res time becuase of being in the spawn que
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, take another look at the economy simulator, it accounts for both of those.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1 You dont have to kill the hive in a few seconds if you rush it quickly. All you have to do is kill most the aleins and cover the doors to kill the resta(a lck down). 2 With on hive aleins will spawn in perdictible spots ever 8 seconds and you will have about a second to kill them before ther fully "in the game" 3 So want if they have a OT or two or three, those thing go down like cheap **** to LMGs when the guy carring it knows how to kill em( shoot low, find a spot where you can hit it but it cant hit you
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pre-carapace rushes on a hive are possible and common, infact they are usually a part of an effective JP rush. But getting into a lockdown situation against a competant alien team is not just something you snap your fingers and do, holding off early rushes is not amazingly difficult. They are however effective for pressure and delay. Sitting down and killing the odd OC is unrelated to my proposed use of them, as ranged support in addition to a full defending alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
and the fact that a gorge moves slow and dies quickly
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this gets to the heart of my point. As you'll see from my first post in this thread my argument is that a JP rush without adequate pressure can be convincingly stopped by a prepared alien team. Killing gorges, res towers and taking down DCs with offensive pressure is the effective way to perform a JP hit, and this style of play involves all the complexities of NS combat, marines and aliens harrassing and rushing eachother, fights over resources and anything you can do to delay the other team. You'll notice i also didn't account for any skulk attacks on the marines, no chomped res nodes or upgraded armouries lying in pieces. Savant commented earlier in this thread that a marine team can simply sit in its base, mine entrances and tech while holding res nodes. I'm claiming this isnt effective.
P.S. Most people seem to be afraid of having multiple gorges even after the second hive...don't be, that's how I get my team to win most of the games <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> When you've got two hives, you've got at least 5 res nodes, you're rolling in the res and 2...maybe even THREE gorges can build some mighty good walls and defensive fallbacks for all the offensive aliens. If you're really good you might even build OFFENSIVELY, I mean directly into the line of fire of turrets. Just build a couple DCs and then OCs behind a wall and then build OCs out in line of fire and the DCs should take care of the OCs with some help from you unless you seriously built up some massive DC center <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Spoken as someone who only plays marines obviously
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh come on, are you going to tell me the colour of my underwear next? ;-)
Of course i play aliens, and currently probably aliens more 'cause a certain mate is practicing his leap skill!
I've had plenty of well organised alien sides demolish marine teams even if they contained decent players through the magic "co-ordinated attack". If you dont let the marines get resources its gonna be hard for them to rush you, if you keep hassling their base it'll be hard for them to survive!
Sure in some conditions 1 or 2 really decent marines can defend their base against 5 skulks (someone suggested this) but these marines can happily be left in the base whilst your friendly neighbourhood gorge gets the resources the marines arent holding.
The difference is that you sem to only be concerned with keeping the status quo. Anything that comes between you and 'pwning' the alien team is BAD! God forbid we actually balance the game to make it enjoyable for all, you're only interested in your own fun and screw anyone who begs to differ. (I bet you don't think bunny hopping is an exploit either right?) I play the game from BOTH sides and am not biased when it comes to proposing changes. If the aliens were too strong (as fades were in the previous patch) I would say so. Right now they are not. Like I said, I'll take Flayra's word over yours anyday.
I was going to reply to the rest of your post, but once you start slinging personal insults you forfeit any chance of being taken seriously by me. Perhaps when you grow up and can carry a conversation without these childish insults, we can debate in future.
In the meanwhile, why don't you go and enjoy your 'exploits' while they last.
Regards,
Savant
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You won't get a 2nd hive before a JP rush unless you practically sacrifice any chance of winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't agree more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Trying to rush for a 2nd hive before you have defended the rush or are adequately prepared to deal with one is whats going to get you killed, which is exactly what i see time and time again on public servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats statement summarizes Alien play on a tpyical public server perfectly. I can't tell you how many times people complain for their Gorge to get the second Hive up, then refuse to protect said Gorge. Whats worse is they do it before the economy can support it. <b>A second Hive does no good when you have no res to get Fades fast, or no res to defend it, or you sacrafice DC's to get it.</b> This is not 1.03, two Hives does not equal win anymore. I cringe when I see the second Hive go up before DC's. Because I know when the JP rush comes I am going to have to fight in the second hive minus Carapace and minus DC's to heal me faster. It's even worse if they get to it as it's building since you have no healing at all. Which brings me to the next point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your smart marines haven't played much NS, and you clearly haven't tried this if you believe you can just kill a lerk sitting ontop of a hive, next to 3 DCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, in agreeance. When JP rushed I stay Skulk (No good with a Lerk, rather overflow to my Gorge) and crawl up on walls and can usually get the JP'ers. The stupid ones will panic when they get hit and try and land in the health spam. Thats when I chomp 'em.
The increased healing rate of the Hive was a really good move by the dev team as like you said with the Lerk, getting healed by the Hive and three DC's is tough to overcome. Obviously the Lerks superior armor helps more but I have good mobility with the Skulk and most people have real difficulty flying and aiming at the same time.
What people need to understand is they are coming to get you. It makes no sense to engage JP'ers coming for Maintainence in Keyhole. If they want to shoot that hive, <b>make them come in and fight you for it</b>. The Hive is health spam that auto-targets and heals the instant you take damage. Exploit this feature.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are only 2 things at hive1 that give me trouble as a seasoned JPer - OCs in line of sight of where im trying to float, and lerks standing on a hive who know how to aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is where I disagree. With a little bit of experience a JP'er can stay airborne indefinately. Meaning they have extreme mobility. OC's have trouble hitting stationary targets. Try hostifying a LAN game with -dev in the command line so stuff builds real fast. Build some Marine structures then switch to the Alien side. Place a single OC near the Marine structure (about 8 feet away) and watch the OC miss the immoble target thats twice it's size. Some times the green gob will hit the structure but other times it will flat out miss.
If you circle strafe in air around the Hive the OC's just won't hit you unless there is like half a dozen of them and you fly into them. As a skulk I'd rather the 14 res be spent on another DC to heal me while I fight the JP'er. Maybe it's just me but when I JP (very rarely, Alien for life) I ignore the OC's. It's just the Lerks that mess me up. Which goes back to what you said above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And this gets to the heart of my point. As you'll see from my first post in this thread my argument is that a JP rush without adequate pressure can be convincingly stopped by a prepared alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there's the gaping hole in your plan. Right now most knoweledgeable (not skilled, knoweledgeable) players will go Marine since they know most Alien players will fall apart mentally at the sight of a JP. <----Btw it's about time the sight of my initials strike fear into peoples minds. Anyways most refuse to believe a single Lerk well placed or a few Skulks supporting a Lerk can repel a rush. People, with a little patience and a Hive+3 DC's a single Skulk can easily hold off 2 JP/LMG'ers. It gets more complicated when they have HMG's or there is 5 of them but that makes the payoff even greater.
Instead what happens is after a few games of JP beatdown the Aliens get into the mindset of "OMG get second Hive now" and as TeoH said, that blows your game. Hopefully TeoH's insightful post will wake some Alien players up to the fact that we have to fight the fight, not let it come to us from the very beginning.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->fights over resources and anything you can do to delay the other team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That should be tattooed on the carapace of every Skulk, on the gut of every Gorge, and on the wing of every Lerk. I could go on for pages about tactics on res node warfare but it would be easier to explain in conversation rather than in a forum post.
There is a time and a place to hide in your Hive, and thats when the JP's are inbound. Not in the first five minutes of the game where Marines are basically having free reign over the map securing res for JP's.
You can't be purely reactive as Alien. You have to be proactive.
Your Pal,
Jerry P., Alien for life.
Mines are for 1-hive defense. Making them come out later just destroys the point of it.
redemp fades are the most annoying thing in this game right now imo besides the fact that everyone wants JPs and never uses HA
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Played a game where all the aliens grabbed redemption. Was quite funny - they just couldn't attack! As soon as they tried to assault our base, we shot at them and they redempted. Again and again. Finally, they had to /kill themselves
and get themselves some carapace in order to kill us.
It's not so strange ... a redempt Fade only takes 29 lmg shots to kill. Assuming redemption kicks in at 25% he can only take about 15-20 lmg shots before redemption. That's about a skulk ... for a far larger and slower target.
Only thing a redemp fade for is acid-rocket sniping at undefended positions... granted, getting redemption rather than carap if you just manage to get fade before 2nd hive is down again may be a good idea...
I'm a good trip-miner I often get 4/5 mine kill ratio. BUT! I got good at after a long time and much practice! And more often than not most good players as aliens are getting very crafty at avoiding them. Therefore even if mines are used effectively the aliens still have a fair chance of winning.
Also mines are only good for the first half of the game 'cos by the time the aliens get to fade the mines are useless! One acid rocket usually just sets all the mines off in an area.
Leave 'em as they are and get better at avoiding them. ;p
My proposal: Get rid of the distiction between tourny and casual mode. Actually, eliminate casual mode. I'l like to have ff all the time.
Right for the fourth time:
TeoH is right, Savant is the childish one dismissing DMS with his holier than thou attitude:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spoken as someone who only plays marines obviously
...
Please, please aliens 12 times in a row and THEN come back and say that. (words roughly as I remember them)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is blatant hypocrisy, coming from this lame sod who can't even blow up mines as a gorge, yet professes to know everything about the game.
WHY CAN'T YOU JUST WAIT FOR 1.1 like the rest of us, instead of posting every insignificant gripe (and I believe the one you're posting about is completely unfounded anyway) until it comes out.
Go away, practice blowing up mines as a gorge, and come back when you've you've grown out of being such a hypocrit.
This is where I disagree. With a little bit of experience a JP'er can stay airborne indefinately. Meaning they have extreme mobility. OC's have trouble hitting stationary targets. Try hostifying a LAN game with -dev in the command line so stuff builds real fast. Build some Marine structures then switch to the Alien side. Place a single OC near the Marine structure (about 8 feet away) and watch the OC miss the immoble target thats twice it's size. Some times the green gob will hit the structure but other times it will flat out miss.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, i have a rock solid 99 fps so i can just hold jump and stay permanently pressed against the cieling if i wanted too, don't really have to tell me about perpetual flight :)
Something i need to mention about OCs which might not be widley known. The flying goo you see on your screen is unrelated to the damage dealt. It doesn't matter where the goo goes, the goo isnt dealing the damage. You can stand still and have the goo hit you directly in the face and take no damage. And you can watch the goo hit a wall a good distance away from you and have it hurt you. OCs are wildly innaccurate i'll give you that, and in some cases you can stand still infront of one and have it miss several hits, but the thing is, their hitting percentage while you are moving is not significantly different to when you are standing still. In your example with the marine structure, you have no real way of verifying wether the OC is hitting or not, because as i mentioned, the goo has nothing to do with the damage.
I ran some tests on it recently to get an idea of the firing behaviour. While it is possible to avoid hits to a degree, OCs spread out through a hive will still deal significant damage to a JPer. Circling the hive does reduce the chance of them hitting you, but it isnt always simple to circle the hive - you have medpacks to pickup and skulks to avoid. Jetpackers would ideally love to just float away from the cieling or floor, shooting while skulks cannot reach them, and OCs/Lerks will kill this style of jetpacking very quickly. I recorded a few tests, the gorge is not fantastically co-operative here and we have a few too many OCs at times, but i think its a decent watch for anyone who is interested in the OC behaviour:
<a href='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/TeoH/octest.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/TeoH/octest.zip</a>
This is done in eclipse hive because it has some space for circling. Some other hives bring up additional points, Silo for example usually demonstrates a situation where you have a JPer directly above OCs, and a long way up. I tend to find that in power silo with OCs on the floor, even a floating JPer who is at the top of the hive room will not take any damage from the OCs. This is possibly some sort of vertical limit on the damage. Placing OCs on the high ledges deals with this problem adequately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
As a skulk I'd rather the 14 res be spent on another DC to heal me while I fight the JP'er. Maybe it's just me but when I JP (very rarely, Alien for life) I ignore the OC's. It's just the Lerks that mess me up. Which goes back to what you said above.
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Well, the problem with additional healing for lerks/skulks is that most JPers will acknowledge the fact that you are more or less invincible with the standard hive+3DC healing, and will try to simply kill the hive as fast as possible. Unloading HMG straight into the hive and attempting to dodge any aliens is usually the most effective way to take a hive down, and in this circumstance the additional healing to lerks does very little. However, the healing effect that the DCs have on the hive is an important consideration, it should be mentioned that a health spraying gorge is a definate asset when you are trying to save a hive. Infact against a LMG/JP rush, a gorge under the hive spraying can completely negate the damage of a LMG. With a HMG it is not as helpful, but still worth doing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
And there's the gaping hole in your plan. Right now most knoweledgeable (not skilled, knoweledgeable) players will go Marine since they know most Alien players will fall apart mentally at the sight of a JP.
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hah, well yes i did make the assumption that the alien team weren't clueless, sorry about that ;)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
why don't you go and enjoy your 'exploits' while they last.
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Wow, you're fantastic. You managed to completely ignore all of my post, and dodge the subject of actually answering me by branding me an "exploiter". Thus in some strange way dismissing me, because if you've labelled me an "exploiter" i can't possibly have anything meaningful to say on the subject of mines, JPs and OCs right? How on earth have you managed to go from a discussion of tech rushes, mines and JP defence, to whining about me bunnyhopping? Let me take a wild guess here: You watched my gorge demo... and managed to completely miss the fact that i consistantly detonated mine after mine, because at some point in the demo you saw me do a little bunnyhop. And of course, regardless of the actual content of the demo, if i bunnyhopped at some point it must be an abomination unleashed upon mankind. OH NOES BUNNYHOPPING GORGE!! SAVE ME JESUS!!11
I play in a league that explicity permits bunnyhopping in its rules, so i'll hop all i like thankyou very much. Now would you like to actually address any of my post or are you just going to run off screaming "the bunnyhoppers are coming! THE BUNNYHOPPERS AER COMING!!1"? And on an unrelated note, not being taken seriously by you is more of a prize than a forfeit.
Regards,
TeoH
PS. I now have a sig
You too? :\
I typed my last reply out yesterday, then lost it. Probably haven't remembered everything i typed. Damn you Internet.