<!--QuoteBegin--Stung256+Apr 28 2003, 09:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stung256 @ Apr 28 2003, 09:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was thinking about doing a suicide JP rush. Here is build order:
IP Arms Lab RT Proto lab Recycle IP/Arms Lab Hand Out JPs
Thoughts would be great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Has been done in clan match's and is somewhat effective. Although this strat is not as full proof if you just hmg/jp.
*note* GORGS will not have a dc by the time you can fit your team with jp's this has been tested* COUNTER: have 4 people go gorge and just heal spray the hive while you have 1 skulks take their base and 1 skulk take the jp's.
Sorry I never built your spray lagger.... Well 3 Gorges should be enough... And if you're in a pub setting, the Marines probably will try to shoot that one skulk instead of the Hive like they should. And I second that this has been done in clan matches before, and has worked. If you see JPs and your Gorge is still in his cocoon... well... gg...
I'm positive that there are counters to this strategy, including the 4 gorges and all, but to be honest, noone expects it. 4 gorges are simply unheard of and far too risky to bet that a clan might do an instant JP rush.
That said, I do have some comments to make. It is boring; you are right. If you want to win then you use strats like this. If you want to play the GAME then you use HA, or something like that. In pubs I only use JPs in conjunction with HA for cover. If I feel up to it however, I WILL do the occasional 'instant JP rush' for a change. Games using this strat last at a most 5-7 minutes. Therefore, its a small amount of time to spend, and an easy way to expose pubbers to a match strategy.
And to the person who does not want these 5 min strats on his server - fine with me. Got your IP down, it just prevents people from thinking outside the box--->[ ].
This isn't about thinking outside a box, I'm perfectly well accustomed to all the rushes seen on this forum, thanks. What's important is that by doing a rush on a PUBLIC server one person (usually) decides that the game wuill not be any longer than 5 minutes. Do any of the other players on the server have a say in the matter? No. Usually too, the players who decide this length of game have no more right than anyone else to such a decision. Win or lose, it's the biggest anticlimax for aliens to realise that the end of the game has come early, and they won't have any fun leaping, umbraing, fading, webbing, not to mention any hive three abilities (though we rarely see those these days). It's either a Hive down, end game, or jp/hmgers (or whatever the rushers have) down, right let's go and take their base out... oh look nothing here chomp the comm, end game. That's what I call lack of variety and you might argue it's in fact you, the purveyors of this 5 minute ideal, who aren't looking outside of the box ->[]
(I'm not talking about clan play here as in clan play it's necessary to use the brokenness of the game to win, because winning is the be-all and end-all. In public servers, we're not restricted in this fashion, and can have fun and decent games without the need for rush (work or not) = end game).
While I understand your point of view, and your points are well taken, I still believe that pub players should not be shielded from match strategies. Yes it is a pain in the butt when a game lasts 5 minutes, yes its little fun, but there is something positive that comes out of it. There comes the presentation of NEW ideas, never thought of before.
What this 5-7 minute game does in the long term is far better than its 'lamity' if you will. It inspires new strategies, and allows people to become more tactically diverse. For example, one simple strategy would be to have the gorge drop two defense towers in an undefended hive, and have one skulk stay with him. Once this hive starts going up, both (or if you can muster more than two, do so) go out to marine base WITHOUT the ping of death and destroy it. Risky - yes, a counter to an equally risky strategy - yes.
So there it is, all you really are doing by preventing these games is the import of new, more effective strategies.
<!--QuoteBegin--Roobubba+May 2 2003, 03:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roobubba @ May 2 2003, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What's important is that by doing a rush on a PUBLIC server one person (usually) decides that the game wuill not be any longer than 5 minutes. Do any of the other players on the server have a say in the matter? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Noone else gets to decide this because they're not sitting in the com chair. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
why restrict the strategies employed on your server? Sure, if someone comms 5 games in a row attempting this it would get boring/frustrating but I've never seen a string of more than 3 really short games on a pub except for when the marines or aliens get base rushed continuosly. (the lame 'spawn killing' variety of game...)
Take an evenings play on almost any NS server and you'll get a broad spread of games lasting from a couple of minutes (for whatever reason) to a couple of hours. Variety is the spice of NS!
Anyway, you <i>don't</i> see this strat too often in pub play (I've never actually seen this particular 'super fast' jp rush on a pub before). The fact that there are such a wide range of strategies that you can use broadens the appeal of NS. If aliens are dissapointed that they got beaten so quickly (or didn't get to upgrade etc.) then they will still probably get the opertunity in the next game, and perhaps they will learn a bit more about harrasing marine base in the early stages...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that 5 min 'CS style' rushes are a great thing, it just seems silly to dissaprove of a viable (if risky) strat because it ends the game too early.
1. Ok, so the if the team dosen't have any say at all, why should they listen to the comm at all? 2. They happen all the time in pubs too, thats whats annoying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The alien counters: 1. Rush the base in a group, take down as many marines as you can. They won't respawn because the IP was recycled --> less firepower left to kill your hive. 2. Have the whole team gorge up and healspray the hive. Healspray heals a large amount of health when used on buildings. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the whole team goes gorge, then the marines can back off and secure everynode on the map as well as relocate whereever. IT doesnt matter though because JPs are being changed for 1.1 anyhow
Read the post in general strategy, "Jp's Brought To A 'new' Level Of Cheapness." For those of you claiming that there isn't enough res, everything is recycled once the next item is built. So it goes:
1. Build ip 2. Build armory 3. Recycle ip 4. Build arms lab 5. Recycle armory 6. Build proto lab 7. Recycle arms lab 8. Get upgrade 9. Drop jp for everyone 10. Recycle proto lab and rt in base for health/ammo spam 11. Game over (usually marine win)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*note* GORGS will not have a dc by the time you can fit your team with jp's this has been tested*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It takes much less time for a gorge to get 14 res than it does for the commander to get; an IP, armory, arms lab, proto lab, JP research, JP equipt, with some res towers thrown in somewhere.
And something to one minute games. If you come up with a strategy, that works 100% of the time and has absolutely no counter, than NS needs to be redone and you should use it because it wouldn't be fun. The point is though, there haven't been any strategies like that discovered. NS maps officially last about 20+ minutes before they change after someone wins. That means you've got about 5 or so "1 minute" games you can play. If you use the same strategy each time, hopefully the other team will come up with something they use to counter and win. On a public server, I've almost never seen a team win more than four times in a row. There is absolutely no reason to not try for a one minute game. It just gives you the chance to try to invent a counter for the strategy, as well as giving you time to try again whether you win, or lose.
<!--QuoteBegin--SnO0Py+May 2 2003, 01:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SnO0Py @ May 2 2003, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're saying, you wanna be lame and end the game in about a minute, whether you kill the hive or not. You call that a GAME? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In response to this lovely quote, I did not think it necessary, but I must ask people to please have SOMETHING to say, not: 'this is lame and u sux0rz.' Its not constructive and only serves to raise post count. If you have an undefendable opinion rethink it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--SnO0Py+May 2 2003, 11:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SnO0Py @ May 2 2003, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. Ok, so the if the team dosen't have any say at all, why should they listen to the comm at all? 2. They happen all the time in pubs too, thats whats annoying. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. I dunno, maybe it's just me but I thought that the comm was usually in charge.
2. They don't happen in pubs 'all the time', like I said in my post, I've seen the occasional jp rush but nothing like this before. Also remember the average game is 20 minutes, short games like this hardly ever happen at all.
Comments
b) Devestating against open hives, risky in enclosed hives like Eclipse Command
c) Makes for boring wars, now I only see in it official ladder matches and wars, never in friendlies or pracs.
5 LMG's pounding a hive is very devestating, specially with no lerks ever, unless the gorge saves for lerk which totally screws aliens economy anyway.
IP
Arms Lab
RT
Proto lab
Recycle IP/Arms Lab
Hand Out JPs
Thoughts would be great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has been done in clan match's and is somewhat effective. Although this strat is not as full proof if you just hmg/jp.
*note* GORGS will not have a dc by the time you can fit your team with jp's this has been tested*
COUNTER: have 4 people go gorge and just heal spray the hive while you have 1 skulks take their base and 1 skulk take the jp's.
That said, I do have some comments to make. It is boring; you are right. If you want to win then you use strats like this. If you want to play the GAME then you use HA, or something like that. In pubs I only use JPs in conjunction with HA for cover. If I feel up to it however, I WILL do the occasional 'instant JP rush' for a change. Games using this strat last at a most 5-7 minutes. Therefore, its a small amount of time to spend, and an easy way to expose pubbers to a match strategy.
And to the person who does not want these 5 min strats on his server - fine with me. Got your IP down, it just prevents people from thinking outside the box--->[ ].
What's important is that by doing a rush on a PUBLIC server one person (usually) decides that the game wuill not be any longer than 5 minutes. Do any of the other players on the server have a say in the matter? No. Usually too, the players who decide this length of game have no more right than anyone else to such a decision. Win or lose, it's the biggest anticlimax for aliens to realise that the end of the game has come early, and they won't have any fun leaping, umbraing, fading, webbing, not to mention any hive three abilities (though we rarely see those these days). It's either a Hive down, end game, or jp/hmgers (or whatever the rushers have) down, right let's go and take their base out... oh look nothing here chomp the comm, end game.
That's what I call lack of variety and you might argue it's in fact you, the purveyors of this 5 minute ideal, who aren't looking outside of the box ->[]
(I'm not talking about clan play here as in clan play it's necessary to use the brokenness of the game to win, because winning is the be-all and end-all. In public servers, we're not restricted in this fashion, and can have fun and decent games without the need for rush (work or not) = end game).
Roo
What this 5-7 minute game does in the long term is far better than its 'lamity' if you will. It inspires new strategies, and allows people to become more tactically diverse. For example, one simple strategy would be to have the gorge drop two defense towers in an undefended hive, and have one skulk stay with him. Once this hive starts going up, both (or if you can muster more than two, do so) go out to marine base WITHOUT the ping of death and destroy it. Risky - yes, a counter to an equally risky strategy - yes.
So there it is, all you really are doing by preventing these games is the import of new, more effective strategies.
Noone else gets to decide this because they're not sitting in the com chair. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
why restrict the strategies employed on your server? Sure, if someone comms 5 games in a row attempting this it would get boring/frustrating but I've never seen a string of more than 3 really short games on a pub except for when the marines or aliens get base rushed continuosly. (the lame 'spawn killing' variety of game...)
Take an evenings play on almost any NS server and you'll get a broad spread of games lasting from a couple of minutes (for whatever reason) to a couple of hours. Variety is the spice of NS!
Anyway, you <i>don't</i> see this strat too often in pub play (I've never actually seen this particular 'super fast' jp rush on a pub before). The fact that there are such a wide range of strategies that you can use broadens the appeal of NS. If aliens are dissapointed that they got beaten so quickly (or didn't get to upgrade etc.) then they will still probably get the opertunity in the next game, and perhaps they will learn a bit more about harrasing marine base in the early stages...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that 5 min 'CS style' rushes are a great thing, it just seems silly to dissaprove of a viable (if risky) strat because it ends the game too early.
2. They happen all the time in pubs too, thats whats annoying.
1. Rush the base in a group, take down as many marines as you can. They won't respawn because the IP was recycled --> less firepower left to kill your hive.
2. Have the whole team gorge up and healspray the hive. Healspray heals a large amount of health when used on buildings.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the whole team goes gorge, then the marines can back off and secure everynode on the map as well as relocate whereever. IT doesnt matter though because JPs are being changed for 1.1 anyhow
1. Build ip
2. Build armory
3. Recycle ip
4. Build arms lab
5. Recycle armory
6. Build proto lab
7. Recycle arms lab
8. Get upgrade
9. Drop jp for everyone
10. Recycle proto lab and rt in base for health/ammo spam
11. Game over (usually marine win)
It takes much less time for a gorge to get 14 res than it does for the commander to get; an IP, armory, arms lab, proto lab, JP research, JP equipt, with some res towers thrown in somewhere.
And something to one minute games. If you come up with a strategy, that works 100% of the time and has absolutely no counter, than NS needs to be redone and you should use it because it wouldn't be fun.
The point is though, there haven't been any strategies like that discovered. NS maps officially last about 20+ minutes before they change after someone wins. That means you've got about 5 or so "1 minute" games you can play. If you use the same strategy each time, hopefully the other team will come up with something they use to counter and win. On a public server, I've almost never seen a team win more than four times in a row. There is absolutely no reason to not try for a one minute game. It just gives you the chance to try to invent a counter for the strategy, as well as giving you time to try again whether you win, or lose.
Ratfire
like secounds.
In response to this lovely quote, I did not think it necessary, but I must ask people to please have SOMETHING to say, not: 'this is lame and u sux0rz.' Its not constructive and only serves to raise post count. If you have an undefendable opinion rethink it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
2. They happen all the time in pubs too, thats whats annoying. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I dunno, maybe it's just me but I thought that the comm was usually in charge.
2. They don't happen in pubs 'all the time', like I said in my post, I've seen the occasional jp rush but nothing like this before. Also remember the average game is 20 minutes, short games like this hardly ever happen at all.