I was there, yes indeed. These counters are comical at best, the most logical one being "wait for 1.1" 1) To those who suggest aliens keep down the marines res towers: We had one RT the entire game. It takes 70 seconds for another RT to pay for itself and begin turning a profit. The game was over in less than 3 minutes, meaning by the time we build another RT it would have actually hurt our income in the long run. 2) Parsites: Are you bloody high? I want some of what you're smoking. 3) Entire team of gorges: Requirement 1: You need to know marines are gonna jp rush REAL early. 2: You need to convince your entire team to get back to the hive and go gorge, this is against the instincts of most players who realize > 1 gorge is usually a bad thing and that they should be off harrassing marines instead. IE: They'll think you're a lunatic and ignore you. 3: There is no 3.
4) OMG SKILLED ALIENS WILL OWN YOU WITH WALLWALKINGNESS WOOOOOOOOOO the alien team was rather good, they were not your average newbies, once they heard jps coming they took positions on the walls and ontop/sides of the hive. Didnt help em a bit.
<!--QuoteBegin--Chadseh+May 2 2003, 10:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chadseh @ May 2 2003, 10:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A good JPer will <i>never</i> get caught by a level 1 skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly true Chads. A JPer has to have a fairly high framerate to be effective, otherwise the fuel regen rate is so slow as to make it ineffective for actually attacking (you may have noticed I never ask for JP due mainly to my FPS averaging 20-25). Around 20 FPS, JP's are actually balanced for their res cost in most cases (some hive rooms, especially via, are exceptions).
About the only thing the aliens could do to counter would be to healspam the hive. Healspray heals around 100 damage per spray when used on structures, so 5+ gorges all spraying the hive should be able to keep it alive. Remember that you don't really need to kill the marines, just outlast them until they run out of ammo.
It's necessary for you to know that they're JP rushing, of course. Seeing the entire marine team stay in base is a good indication, and a nearby skulk should be able to hear the distinctive sound of JPs being picked up. It's critical that he get the word out immediately at that point, and that the rest of the team be ready to react.
This marine strat is very cheap, but it's not totally unstoppable.
<!--QuoteBegin--abtm+May 2 2003, 04:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (abtm @ May 2 2003, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If JP's are cheap, then so are lerks. Please realize that both classes have that "high flying hard to hit" type. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but marines can have their entire team outfitted with jetpacks well before the alien team can get a single lerk. Not to mention that without adrenaline, lerks can't fly and shoot spikes at the same time.
The issue here is not whether jetpacks are inherently unbalanced, it's the fact that the marines can get them far too quickly. It's almost as if all the aliens were able to go lerk when the marines had just barely finished building their first spawn portal.
We all await 1.1 very eagerly. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm hoping the new res model fixes things so the marines don't get a three-minute building headstart on the aliens.
The idea that parasites can take down a jp rush is extremely laughable. If you can manage to pull that off, it's not because of parasites - it's because the marines a.) don't have a framerate over 30, and b.) suck.
The gorging strat though... that has a chance of winning, I guess. Assuming of course that the marines recycle *everything*, resource node included. If they still have the node in base, you're screwed. 'Cuz on big enough games, that one res node will pump out enough to keep the team outfitted and/or ammod up. But on the other hand, the all-gorge proposition sounds like about the only thing that even has a *remote* chance of working, unless the aliens greatly out-skill the 'rines.
parasite actually is a fairly good tactic. if you sneak up on a rine and you bite him enuf and he flies off you can launch 3 para's normally and 4 with adren and that hopefully will get him. and you will get some major laughs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .
gorgin is good but they usually end up killing you farily easy since some people fly random all over the place...
<!--QuoteBegin--Dervish+May 3 2003, 01:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dervish @ May 3 2003, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The gorging strat though... that has a chance of winning, I guess. Assuming of course that the marines recycle *everything*, resource node included. If they still have the node in base, you're screwed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been on both sides of this kind of rush before, and each time every single marine was dedicated to killing the hive. Because this is such an all-or-nothing strat, you're not going to see a bunch of marines standing around while others peck away at the hive with LMGs. 1-3 skulks (depending on server size) should be able to decimate a wide-open base like that. You shouldn't need an entire team of gorges to defend, as long as everyone is on the ball with the healspray.
I forgot that the first warning of this kind of rush won't be the sound of jetpacks being dropped, but of buildings being recycled. This gives the aliens an additional 1-2 minutes of warning to coodinate their defense and counterattack.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zel+May 2 2003, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ May 2 2003, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> id just like to point out that all of these JP arguments assume that the marines are organized and skilled and great FPS flyers, and that the aliens dont know how to wallwalk very well.
with teams as stacked as that the marines deserve to win.
if the mariens are that organized and skilled then why the heck not let them win? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hope ur being sarcastic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
I think the fastast way to prevent a jprush is: 1 gorge that builds a dc under the hive at start then goes building rts, and then when skulks have 22 or 33 they can go gorge, drop a oc (and maybe also dcs) in the hive, if its 5 vs 5, u could have 2 ocs in the hive and an dc under the hive when they come with their jps. OC + SKULK + HIVE = its raining jps, hallelouya, arine
of course this could fail, but then again, ive seen 5 onos's get slaughtered once...
Dont hate the game, hate the playa's (yeah its a real pimp life <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I would just like to add that a JP HMG rambo will never kill any of my hives after we get our second one up. Lerk + umbra means no bullet holes in the hives, plus I can shoot them down fairly easy and I get healed. Using movement chambers to warp to hives under attack and I can umbra as soon as its attacked it hasn't lost more than 1500 HP before I get there, even from a HMG. For example Marines like to JP/HMG in the vents at noname. I sit ontop of the hive there and umbra and shoot them with spikes. Hive hasn't taken almost any damage.
Aliens always need at least one alien go lerk after your second hive goes up. Put movement chambers at your WOLs for quick deployments. It makes a quick Marine win turn into a long game where they require HA and GL to take you out.
Well, there's a wide array of disbelievers of my parasite suggestion. Let me clear this up:
First of all, if you take a look at the first post of the thread, there is not even close to room for upgrades. Therefore, the marines have level 0 weapons and armor, and not even any hmgs. This is a hugely important point.
Take an unupgraded marine + jetpack. At most 10 parasite kills will destroy him, which can be done by 3 skulks in the span of about one second. Quite frankly, if you can't hit the marine with a para you won't hit him with spikes either, so the lerk wouldn't be much better anyhow <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now, let's say you just damage the jp'er, and he's smart enough to try and get health. He basically has two options: land on the floor somewhere and pick up health, or fly around and hope the commander drops it on his head. The second is unrealistic to anyone who has ever commed before (doubly so if either your or your target's ping is greater than 50), so we'll scratch that one.
Okay, so you have a jetpacker who wants to land. Hmmm, think you might be able to handle this one? Either camp the medpacks, making a quick bite easy, or just chase the jp'er around the room. He won't last forever, and since you don't have the 30-second-hive-kill situation going (no upgrades/hmg), so you should be able to finish off the marines before they do you.
As I said before, medpacks won't be very affordable either. This is a gamble strat, so there will be very little room for res-based error (and medspam requires room for error). Yes, you have recycled stuff, but that 20 res boost you get at the end won't hold you for long. It's not like jp'ers ever notice medpacks laying on the ground while they're busy flying and not cratering/being eaten, so much of it will be wasted.
<!--QuoteBegin--dizzy.souls+May 2 2003, 09:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dizzy.souls @ May 2 2003, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Zel+May 2 2003, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ May 2 2003, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> id just like to point out that all of these JP arguments assume that the marines are organized and skilled and great FPS flyers, and that the aliens dont know how to wallwalk very well.
with teams as stacked as that the marines deserve to win.
if the mariens are that organized and skilled then why the heck not let them win? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hope ur being sarcastic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> actually a good portion of battles with jetpackers are in hallways and small rooms, and jetpackers do not have perfect control over their bodies like i do over my skulkiness, so a jetpacker will quite often slam into the ceiling or a wall, and an on-the-ball skulk has a decent chance of catching the JP'er with his 4 foot bite range.
if the jetpacker does nto stop to fight the skulk and heads straight intothe hive, its another matter, but again, youa re assuming the marines are organized and skilled, and isnt that the point of the game?
also, smallish rooms like noname, sewer, eclipse, are decently wallwalkable. only things like refinery and viaduct become a problem.
this whole argument to me, feels like the skulks arent trying hard enough and the marines are super organized and skilled, which is a perfect equation for a marine win. no doubt about it, they would deserve to in that situation.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zel+May 3 2003, 12:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ May 3 2003, 12:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--dizzy.souls+May 2 2003, 09:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dizzy.souls @ May 2 2003, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Zel+May 2 2003, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ May 2 2003, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> id just like to point out that all of these JP arguments assume that the marines are organized and skilled and great FPS flyers, and that the aliens dont know how to wallwalk very well.
with teams as stacked as that the marines deserve to win.
if the mariens are that organized and skilled then why the heck not let them win? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hope ur being sarcastic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually a good portion of battles with jetpackers are in hallways and small rooms, and jetpackers do not have perfect control over their bodies like i do over my skulkiness, so a jetpacker will quite often slam into the ceiling or a wall, and an on-the-ball skulk has a decent chance of catching the JP'er with his 4 foot bite range.
if the jetpacker does nto stop to fight the skulk and heads straight intothe hive, its another matter, but again, youa re assuming the marines are organized and skilled, and isnt that the point of the game?
also, smallish rooms like noname, sewer, eclipse, are decently wallwalkable. only things like refinery and viaduct become a problem.
this whole argument to me, feels like the skulks arent trying hard enough and the marines are super organized and skilled, which is a perfect equation for a marine win. no doubt about it, they would deserve to in that situation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> true, but dont forget that jpers have a very high speed when sticked to the ceiling, it doesnt take much skill to stay as far as possible from a skulk, on the other hand, when a skulk surprises a jper in a small corridor hes pretty much dead like u say, but for a skulk getting to the right corridor is a lot harder then for the jper to get to a good openspace on the map, also becuz he has to pursuit with the jper (or u could camp all the time on one place, or u could be lucky etc...)
But on the other hand a skulk can last much longer without gorge support then a jprine without comm support.
But most of the time: wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
Besides there is a big difference between rine and alien teamwork
<!--QuoteBegin--dizzy.souls+May 2 2003, 09:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dizzy.souls @ May 2 2003, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
I think the fastast way to prevent a jprush is: 1 gorge that builds a dc under the hive at start then goes building rts, and then when skulks have 22 or 33 they can go gorge, drop a oc (and maybe also dcs) in the hive, if its 5 vs 5, u could have 2 ocs in the hive and an dc under the hive when they come with their jps. OC + SKULK + HIVE = its raining jps, hallelouya, arine <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This blocks a different kinda jp rush then the one we're talking about. The jp's arrived before the gorge even got the first rt up. And even if we had given him the extra 10 seconds to put up an rt or dc, there's no way the skulks woul have been able to get to 33 res in the 45 seconds of game time that were left.
And in response to "parasites" being an effect measure against this. Really what <i>are</i> you smoking. 9 jp's charge against 9 skulks. 8 of the jp'ers are shooting at the skulks, and one is shooting at the hive. Within 30 seconds you're down to a 7 marines on 3 skulk situation. The fact that they spawn one at time didn't help. And believe it or not there are some comm's (including me) who can drop med's on jp'ers heads with about 60-80% accuracy depending on speed. 3 skulks parasiting is not a fair match against 7 fully loaded lmg/jp marines.
The aliens did try to wall walk though, and the small size of the sewer hive should have given them an advantage, but facts are facts... this strategy hits them with their pants down long before they even have the resources to field multiple gorges or put down chambers so I've yet to see anyone bring up a viable counter to it.
I think the fastast way to prevent a jprush is: 1 gorge that builds a dc under the hive at start then goes building rts, and then when skulks have 22 or 33 they can go gorge, drop a oc (and maybe also dcs) in the hive, if its 5 vs 5, u could have 2 ocs in the hive and an dc under the hive when they come with their jps. OC + SKULK + HIVE = its raining jps, hallelouya, arine <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This blocks a different kinda jp rush then the one we're talking about. The jp's arrived before the gorge even got the first rt up. And even if we had given him the extra 10 seconds to put up an rt or dc, there's no way the skulks woul have been able to get to 33 res in the 45 seconds of game time that were left.
And in response to "parasites" being an effect measure against this. Really what <i>are</i> you smoking. 9 jp's charge against 9 skulks. 8 of the jp'ers are shooting at the skulks, and one is shooting at the hive. Within 30 seconds you're down to a 7 marines on 3 skulk situation. The fact that they spawn one at time didn't help. And believe it or not there are some comm's (including me) who can drop med's on jp'ers heads with about 60-80% accuracy depending on speed. 3 skulks parasiting is not a fair match against 7 fully loaded lmg/jp marines.
The aliens did try to wall walk though, and the small size of the sewer hive should have given them an advantage, but facts are facts... this strategy hits them with their pants down long before they even have the resources to field multiple gorges or put down chambers so I've yet to see anyone bring up a viable counter to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah I know, I read the thread, I was talking about the 'fastest' way, even if its not fast enough. But usually in pubs it is fast enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WWJD]JesusC+May 2 2003, 06:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WWJD]JesusC @ May 2 2003, 06:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a general rule when I comm I avoid JP/HMG combos, simply because I've always thought of them as overpowered at the 1 hive level. But after suffering 3 marine losses in a row the other night no one would dare get in the comm chair. So I offered my comm skills if the marines were willing to try something crazy. I proceeded to do a by the books JP rush.
build IP -> build armory ->recycle ip -> build arms lab -> recycle armory -> build proto -> recycle arms lab/resource tower -> drop 9 jet packs -> recycle protolab, spam health/ammo all over hive -> game ends in less than 3 minutes (marine win <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) .
I'd never actually tried doing that before, only having read about people trying to fight it off. And of course disaster ensued as for the next 4 games every commander tried to emulate that same build pattern (down to the lack of an IP). I really understand what everyone means by, "jp's are cheap!"
Has anyone actually developed a successful counter to this kind of JP rush? I've seen later ones beaten back by skilled lerks, but the aliens usually don't have cara within the first two minutes. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That kind of jp rush has 1 counter that i know of --> scout out and see if they recycle their ip *somewhat obvious* assuming this is a 6v6 have 4 skulks go gorg on top of the hive so they can heal spray during the attack/dmg jp's. The other 2 skulks split up 1---> goes to base to take anything that needs taking out. The other skulk picks off any marines lower then 100 fps.
*the key here is to have your gorgs constantly healing your hive. Since healspray heals the hive for 50hp per attack + any dc's your gorgs may build the ammo the current marines are carrying cannot do enough damage.*
Your other skulks should take out the command chair so they cant spam ammo as well*
Finally a counter that takes into account that lerks and 3 dc's won't be available, thank you lagger. Still I've found it hard to convince more than half a team of people to go gorge, simply because it's against their instincts, even if warned that one of these kinds of rushes are coming.
This is a "one bullet, one shot, one kill." strat. "One bullet" because you dont have much ammo. "One shot" because if it fails you will be **TERMINATED** <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> "One kill" because you usually only have to kill one hive.
The only problem I can see with a multiple-gorge strategy is that while they're busy healing the hive, they're really easy targets. =/ I mean... you know how easy it is to kill unupgraded gorges, right? They're big targets to begin with, and don't move too fast. Even if they're under the hive, I doubt they'd get healed fast enough to stay alive. Hmm... but, on the other hand, it's got a better chance of working than pretty much anything else, eh? Just have to pray the marines aren't smart enough to focus on all the fatties sitting underneath the hive before takin' the hive down. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh! I just thought of this, as a possible counter! How about the following - If you KNOW this rush is coming, you hear the recycling and everything... Get 3 or 4 teammates and hide near their base, on the opposite side of where they'll be rushing your hive from. (example: On Tanith, if you start with SatComm, hide on the Reactor Room side so the jpers won't see you when they rush your hive) Once your teammates are there, go gorge. When your hive goes under attack, you can bet that everybody but (and maybe including) the comm will be at that hive. At that point, rush in to marine start and hope that each gorge has enough to drop a D chamber - and 1 O chamber if you can spare it. You just have to hope that the comm is either gone, or jumps out to try and kill you. If you pull it off, the 'rines would be left comm-less while you lame up their base. Eventuallly they'll have to come back... right? At the very least you'll have a stalemate. Well, that's best-case scenario at least.
Of course, all this depends on early gorging, so you'll have the resources to drop chambers. And even then, I'm not sure you'd have the res to do it. Sooo, I guess it just depends on luck. It's something different though, right? Give it a shot on some different servers and post here if it works. Or doesn't work. Whichever LOL
The gorges are healing both the hive and each other. They shouldn't have much trouble not dying from lvl 0 guns, and they COULD have level 1-2 carapace by then. The only tactic that is viable is;
1) You scout the marine main as always. (DUH) 2) If you know they're doing this, have ONE person gorge. (DUH) 3) Have all the other skulks attack their base all at once to kill as many marines, any buildings, AND as many skulks as possible die in the attempt. Odds are you'll kill at least ONE marine; or bite them AND make them waste ammo. The ammo/health "loss" is clutch, just rush after one minute and the armory will be gone by then. 4) The dead skulks and long respawn will let the only gorge who's alive to get all the res and drop 2 d chambers. 5) As the skulks spawn in they wait at base to go gorge; they don't get cara, they just wait. 6) Have 1 skulk hit their main and one skulk stay at hive for a random shot at JPers, if not just to draw their fire from the hive. 7) Gorges heal the hive and have up to level 2 carapace. 8) GG marines
Lerks are nothing like JP because lerks have an energy bay that is taken fast by flying unless they ahve adrenaline whihc they wont and also spikes drain from there enegy at the same time so they can't fly worth crap well shooting spikes.
Also you can't charge with teeth or your lerk with his pitifull armor and health will get mowed.
JP are cheap the devs said seeing as how you can technically fly for ever if you get a real high FPS and they are going to fix that along with alot of the toerh balance issues.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WWJD]JesusC+May 3 2003, 01:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WWJD]JesusC @ May 3 2003, 01:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And believe it or not there are some comm's (including me) who can drop med's on jp'ers heads with about 60-80% accuracy depending on speed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just a simple aside to this - I've played a number of games where, without even asking, I've had medpaks & ammo dropped on me with pinpoint accuracy during a firefight. Not in front of me while I ran, but <i>on top of me</i>. I love those sorts of comms <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And for Alien Bob - I don't see much fun in rush games either, but you have to accept it as a staple divine commandment of multiplayer RTS games...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Zel+May 3 2003, 12:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ May 3 2003, 12:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> also, smallish rooms like noname, sewer, eclipse, are decently wallwalkable. only things like refinery and viaduct become a problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not all of them. Noname is more or less impossible to wallwalk properly. There's a circle in the ceiling around the hive, a marine in there is nearly impossible to get at, and can stay there for a long time with high fps. It also makes it hard to get on top of the hive. Refinery is a bigger room, but it's relatively easy to get to the ceiling, which is not the case in noname. Many rooms have irregularities on the walls where you can get stuck, leaving only a few paths to the ceiling for a skulk. Not much manuevering room in that case. AvP style wallwalking would help that, in that game the alien could get past obstacles easily. Alternatively, less complex wall designs in the levels to make things easier for the skulks.
Just a few minutes ago I played a game where we countered this strat. 7on7, ns_tanith, Fusion Reactor as a starting hive. None of the marines were leaving their base, and once someone said "they're recycling..." the team pulled together. When the jp'ers hit the hive there were 3 gorges, 2 skulks and a D chamber waiting for them. The chamber provided cover for when a gorge would come under attack, and with all the spraying going on every alien stayed at nearly full health. The hive never came close to dying, and the marines were S.O.L. when their ammo ran out.
Multiple gorges are the key to countering the JP suicide rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--MagiTek+May 6 2003, 02:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MagiTek @ May 6 2003, 02:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just a few minutes ago I played a game where we countered this strat. 7on7, ns_tanith, Fusion Reactor as a starting hive. None of the marines were leaving their base, and once someone said "they're recycling..." the team pulled together. When the jp'ers hit the hive there were 3 gorges, 2 skulks and a D chamber waiting for them. The chamber provided cover for when a gorge would come under attack, and with all the spraying going on every alien stayed at nearly full health. The hive never came close to dying, and the marines were S.O.L. when their ammo ran out.
Multiple gorges are the key to countering the JP suicide rush. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My hero! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just a few questions... did you attack first and kill any marines? If so, how many jp's reached your hive?
And more importantly how long did they take to get there? I'm surprised you got a DC up, or maybe I shouldn't be. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
These counters are comical at best, the most logical one being "wait for 1.1"
1) To those who suggest aliens keep down the marines res towers:
We had one RT the entire game. It takes 70 seconds for another RT to pay for itself and begin turning a profit. The game was over in less than 3 minutes, meaning by the time we build another RT it would have actually hurt our income in the long run.
2) Parsites:
Are you bloody high? I want some of what you're smoking.
3) Entire team of gorges:
Requirement 1: You need to know marines are gonna jp rush REAL early.
2: You need to convince your entire team to get back to the hive and go gorge, this is against the instincts of most players who realize > 1 gorge is usually a bad thing and that they should be off harrassing marines instead. IE: They'll think you're a lunatic and ignore you.
3: There is no 3.
4) OMG SKILLED ALIENS WILL OWN YOU WITH WALLWALKINGNESS WOOOOOOOOOO
the alien team was rather good, they were not your average newbies, once they heard jps coming they took positions on the walls and ontop/sides of the hive. Didnt help em a bit.
Not exactly true Chads. A JPer has to have a fairly high framerate to be effective, otherwise the fuel regen rate is so slow as to make it ineffective for actually attacking (you may have noticed I never ask for JP due mainly to my FPS averaging 20-25). Around 20 FPS, JP's are actually balanced for their res cost in most cases (some hive rooms, especially via, are exceptions).
It's necessary for you to know that they're JP rushing, of course. Seeing the entire marine team stay in base is a good indication, and a nearby skulk should be able to hear the distinctive sound of JPs being picked up. It's critical that he get the word out immediately at that point, and that the rest of the team be ready to react.
This marine strat is very cheap, but it's not totally unstoppable.
Yes, but marines can have their entire team outfitted with jetpacks well before the alien team can get a single lerk. Not to mention that without adrenaline, lerks can't fly and shoot spikes at the same time.
The issue here is not whether jetpacks are inherently unbalanced, it's the fact that the marines can get them far too quickly. It's almost as if all the aliens were able to go lerk when the marines had just barely finished building their first spawn portal.
We all await 1.1 very eagerly. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm hoping the new res model fixes things so the marines don't get a three-minute building headstart on the aliens.
The gorging strat though... that has a chance of winning, I guess. Assuming of course that the marines recycle *everything*, resource node included. If they still have the node in base, you're screwed. 'Cuz on big enough games, that one res node will pump out enough to keep the team outfitted and/or ammod up. But on the other hand, the all-gorge proposition sounds like about the only thing that even has a *remote* chance of working, unless the aliens greatly out-skill the 'rines.
gorgin is good but they usually end up killing you farily easy since some people fly random all over the place...
I've been on both sides of this kind of rush before, and each time every single marine was dedicated to killing the hive. Because this is such an all-or-nothing strat, you're not going to see a bunch of marines standing around while others peck away at the hive with LMGs. 1-3 skulks (depending on server size) should be able to decimate a wide-open base like that. You shouldn't need an entire team of gorges to defend, as long as everyone is on the ball with the healspray.
I forgot that the first warning of this kind of rush won't be the sound of jetpacks being dropped, but of buildings being recycled. This gives the aliens an additional 1-2 minutes of warning to coodinate their defense and counterattack.
with teams as stacked as that the marines deserve to win.
if the mariens are that organized and skilled then why the heck not let them win? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hope ur being sarcastic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
I think the fastast way to prevent a jprush is: 1 gorge that builds a dc under the hive at start then goes building rts, and then when skulks have 22 or 33 they can go gorge, drop a oc (and maybe also dcs) in the hive, if its 5 vs 5, u could have 2 ocs in the hive and an dc under the hive when they come with their jps.
OC + SKULK + HIVE = its raining jps, hallelouya, arine
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
of course this could fail, but then again, ive seen 5 onos's get slaughtered once...
Dont hate the game, hate the playa's (yeah its a real pimp life <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Aliens always need at least one alien go lerk after your second hive goes up. Put movement chambers at your WOLs for quick deployments. It makes a quick Marine win turn into a long game where they require HA and GL to take you out.
As for the 1 hive JP problem, wait for 1.1
First of all, if you take a look at the first post of the thread, there is not even close to room for upgrades. Therefore, the marines have level 0 weapons and armor, and not even any hmgs. This is a hugely important point.
Take an unupgraded marine + jetpack. At most 10 parasite kills will destroy him, which can be done by 3 skulks in the span of about one second. Quite frankly, if you can't hit the marine with a para you won't hit him with spikes either, so the lerk wouldn't be much better anyhow <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now, let's say you just damage the jp'er, and he's smart enough to try and get health. He basically has two options: land on the floor somewhere and pick up health, or fly around and hope the commander drops it on his head. The second is unrealistic to anyone who has ever commed before (doubly so if either your or your target's ping is greater than 50), so we'll scratch that one.
Okay, so you have a jetpacker who wants to land. Hmmm, think you might be able to handle this one? Either camp the medpacks, making a quick bite easy, or just chase the jp'er around the room. He won't last forever, and since you don't have the 30-second-hive-kill situation going (no upgrades/hmg), so you should be able to finish off the marines before they do you.
As I said before, medpacks won't be very affordable either. This is a gamble strat, so there will be very little room for res-based error (and medspam requires room for error). Yes, you have recycled stuff, but that 20 res boost you get at the end won't hold you for long. It's not like jp'ers ever notice medpacks laying on the ground while they're busy flying and not cratering/being eaten, so much of it will be wasted.
edit: clarification, minor.
with teams as stacked as that the marines deserve to win.
if the mariens are that organized and skilled then why the heck not let them win? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hope ur being sarcastic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
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actually a good portion of battles with jetpackers are in hallways and small rooms, and jetpackers do not have perfect control over their bodies like i do over my skulkiness, so a jetpacker will quite often slam into the ceiling or a wall, and an on-the-ball skulk has a decent chance of catching the JP'er with his 4 foot bite range.
if the jetpacker does nto stop to fight the skulk and heads straight intothe hive, its another matter, but again, youa re assuming the marines are organized and skilled, and isnt that the point of the game?
also, smallish rooms like noname, sewer, eclipse, are decently wallwalkable. only things like refinery and viaduct become a problem.
this whole argument to me, feels like the skulks arent trying hard enough and the marines are super organized and skilled, which is a perfect equation for a marine win. no doubt about it, they would deserve to in that situation.
with teams as stacked as that the marines deserve to win.
if the mariens are that organized and skilled then why the heck not let them win? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hope ur being sarcastic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually a good portion of battles with jetpackers are in hallways and small rooms, and jetpackers do not have perfect control over their bodies like i do over my skulkiness, so a jetpacker will quite often slam into the ceiling or a wall, and an on-the-ball skulk has a decent chance of catching the JP'er with his 4 foot bite range.
if the jetpacker does nto stop to fight the skulk and heads straight intothe hive, its another matter, but again, youa re assuming the marines are organized and skilled, and isnt that the point of the game?
also, smallish rooms like noname, sewer, eclipse, are decently wallwalkable. only things like refinery and viaduct become a problem.
this whole argument to me, feels like the skulks arent trying hard enough and the marines are super organized and skilled, which is a perfect equation for a marine win. no doubt about it, they would deserve to in that situation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
true, but dont forget that jpers have a very high speed when sticked to the ceiling, it doesnt take much skill to stay as far as possible from a skulk, on the other hand, when a skulk surprises a jper in a small corridor hes pretty much dead like u say, but for a skulk getting to the right corridor is a lot harder then for the jper to get to a good openspace on the map, also becuz he has to pursuit with the jper (or u could camp all the time on one place, or u could be lucky etc...)
But on the other hand a skulk can last much longer without gorge support then a jprine without comm support.
But most of the time: wallwalk vs jp = its raining skulks, hallelouya, amen... ...err askulk!
Besides there is a big difference between rine and alien teamwork
I think the fastast way to prevent a jprush is: 1 gorge that builds a dc under the hive at start then goes building rts, and then when skulks have 22 or 33 they can go gorge, drop a oc (and maybe also dcs) in the hive, if its 5 vs 5, u could have 2 ocs in the hive and an dc under the hive when they come with their jps.
OC + SKULK + HIVE = its raining jps, hallelouya, arine <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This blocks a different kinda jp rush then the one we're talking about. The jp's arrived before the gorge even got the first rt up. And even if we had given him the extra 10 seconds to put up an rt or dc, there's no way the skulks woul have been able to get to 33 res in the 45 seconds of game time that were left.
And in response to "parasites" being an effect measure against this. Really what <i>are</i> you smoking. 9 jp's charge against 9 skulks. 8 of the jp'ers are shooting at the skulks, and one is shooting at the hive. Within 30 seconds you're down to a 7 marines on 3 skulk situation. The fact that they spawn one at time didn't help. And believe it or not there are some comm's (including me) who can drop med's on jp'ers heads with about 60-80% accuracy depending on speed. 3 skulks parasiting is not a fair match against 7 fully loaded lmg/jp marines.
The aliens did try to wall walk though, and the small size of the sewer hive should have given them an advantage, but facts are facts... this strategy hits them with their pants down long before they even have the resources to field multiple gorges or put down chambers so I've yet to see anyone bring up a viable counter to it.
I think the fastast way to prevent a jprush is: 1 gorge that builds a dc under the hive at start then goes building rts, and then when skulks have 22 or 33 they can go gorge, drop a oc (and maybe also dcs) in the hive, if its 5 vs 5, u could have 2 ocs in the hive and an dc under the hive when they come with their jps.
OC + SKULK + HIVE = its raining jps, hallelouya, arine <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This blocks a different kinda jp rush then the one we're talking about. The jp's arrived before the gorge even got the first rt up. And even if we had given him the extra 10 seconds to put up an rt or dc, there's no way the skulks woul have been able to get to 33 res in the 45 seconds of game time that were left.
And in response to "parasites" being an effect measure against this. Really what <i>are</i> you smoking. 9 jp's charge against 9 skulks. 8 of the jp'ers are shooting at the skulks, and one is shooting at the hive. Within 30 seconds you're down to a 7 marines on 3 skulk situation. The fact that they spawn one at time didn't help. And believe it or not there are some comm's (including me) who can drop med's on jp'ers heads with about 60-80% accuracy depending on speed. 3 skulks parasiting is not a fair match against 7 fully loaded lmg/jp marines.
The aliens did try to wall walk though, and the small size of the sewer hive should have given them an advantage, but facts are facts... this strategy hits them with their pants down long before they even have the resources to field multiple gorges or put down chambers so I've yet to see anyone bring up a viable counter to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah I know, I read the thread, I was talking about the 'fastest' way, even if its not fast enough. But usually in pubs it is fast enough.
build IP -> build armory ->recycle ip -> build arms lab -> recycle armory -> build proto -> recycle arms lab/resource tower -> drop 9 jet packs -> recycle protolab, spam health/ammo all over hive -> game ends in less than 3 minutes (marine win <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) .
I'd never actually tried doing that before, only having read about people trying to fight it off. And of course disaster ensued as for the next 4 games every commander tried to emulate that same build pattern (down to the lack of an IP). I really understand what everyone means by, "jp's are cheap!"
Has anyone actually developed a successful counter to this kind of JP rush? I've seen later ones beaten back by skilled lerks, but the aliens usually don't have cara within the first two minutes. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That kind of jp rush has 1 counter that i know of --> scout out and see if they recycle their ip *somewhat obvious* assuming this is a 6v6 have 4 skulks go gorg on top of the hive so they can heal spray during the attack/dmg jp's. The other 2 skulks split up 1---> goes to base to take anything that needs taking out. The other skulk picks off any marines lower then 100 fps.
*the key here is to have your gorgs constantly healing your hive. Since healspray heals the hive for 50hp per attack + any dc's your gorgs may build the ammo the current marines are carrying cannot do enough damage.*
Your other skulks should take out the command chair so they cant spam ammo as well*
only prob is lack of:
IP
Ammo
Flexability.
This is a "one bullet, one shot, one kill." strat.
"One bullet" because you dont have much ammo.
"One shot" because if it fails you will be **TERMINATED** <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
"One kill" because you usually only have to kill one hive.
Oh! I just thought of this, as a possible counter! How about the following - If you KNOW this rush is coming, you hear the recycling and everything... Get 3 or 4 teammates and hide near their base, on the opposite side of where they'll be rushing your hive from. (example: On Tanith, if you start with SatComm, hide on the Reactor Room side so the jpers won't see you when they rush your hive) Once your teammates are there, go gorge. When your hive goes under attack, you can bet that everybody but (and maybe including) the comm will be at that hive. At that point, rush in to marine start and hope that each gorge has enough to drop a D chamber - and 1 O chamber if you can spare it. You just have to hope that the comm is either gone, or jumps out to try and kill you. If you pull it off, the 'rines would be left comm-less while you lame up their base. Eventuallly they'll have to come back... right? At the very least you'll have a stalemate. Well, that's best-case scenario at least.
Of course, all this depends on early gorging, so you'll have the resources to drop chambers. And even then, I'm not sure you'd have the res to do it. Sooo, I guess it just depends on luck. It's something different though, right? Give it a shot on some different servers and post here if it works. Or doesn't work. Whichever LOL
1) You scout the marine main as always. (DUH)
2) If you know they're doing this, have ONE person gorge. (DUH)
3) Have all the other skulks attack their base all at once to kill as many marines, any buildings, AND as many skulks as possible die in the attempt. Odds are you'll kill at least ONE marine; or bite them AND make them waste ammo. The ammo/health "loss" is clutch, just rush after one minute and the armory will be gone by then.
4) The dead skulks and long respawn will let the only gorge who's alive to get all the res and drop 2 d chambers.
5) As the skulks spawn in they wait at base to go gorge; they don't get cara, they just wait.
6) Have 1 skulk hit their main and one skulk stay at hive for a random shot at JPers, if not just to draw their fire from the hive.
7) Gorges heal the hive and have up to level 2 carapace.
8) GG marines
Also you can't charge with teeth or your lerk with his pitifull armor and health will get mowed.
JP are cheap the devs said seeing as how you can technically fly for ever if you get a real high FPS and they are going to fix that along with alot of the toerh balance issues.
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Just a simple aside to this - I've played a number of games where, without even asking, I've had medpaks & ammo dropped on me with pinpoint accuracy during a firefight. Not in front of me while I ran, but <i>on top of me</i>. I love those sorts of comms <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And for Alien Bob - I don't see much fun in rush games either, but you have to accept it as a staple divine commandment of multiplayer RTS games...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Not all of them. Noname is more or less impossible to wallwalk properly. There's a circle in the ceiling around the hive, a marine in there is nearly impossible to get at, and can stay there for a long time with high fps. It also makes it hard to get on top of the hive. Refinery is a bigger room, but it's relatively easy to get to the ceiling, which is not the case in noname. Many rooms have irregularities on the walls where you can get stuck, leaving only a few paths to the ceiling for a skulk. Not much manuevering room in that case.
AvP style wallwalking would help that, in that game the alien could get past obstacles easily. Alternatively, less complex wall designs in the levels to make things easier for the skulks.
Multiple gorges are the key to countering the JP suicide rush.
Multiple gorges are the key to countering the JP suicide rush. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My hero! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just a few questions... did you attack first and kill any marines? If so, how many jp's reached your hive?
And more importantly how long did they take to get there? I'm surprised you got a DC up, or maybe I shouldn't be. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
But thanks for restoring my faith in the gorges.