Just some sillyness

blueman · July 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Cause pt mappers are working hard.......</div>Well, as we all know THE MAPPERS (MErkaba, Relic25, Narby, KFS, Ken, etc...) are all finishing up their maps for the release (hopefully) so noone posts here any screenies, but HEy, here am i.

First this shots are from a friend and me "map testing" we did the other day in the NSTR (i was showing him the rooms and that)

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v2_odin0.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v2_odin1.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v2_odin2.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v2_odin3.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v2_odin4.jpg" border="0">

and now, ive been drawing a new layout of ttro and im using some of the old rooms. the pics are of a very early stage, but....

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v3_0.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v3_1.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v3_2.jpg" border="0">

hope you like it:

Reborn · July 2002

Wow! That's awesome! Keep working on the map, and send more screenshots! Also, would you mind if I used some of your architecture in my map? I don't want to copy it, I just want to use the style.

humbaba · July 2002

very cool stuff. Nice work. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Mendasp · July 2002

k, it's nice, but i just dont like that fog on the 1st and 2nd shot <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

nice work <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

blueman · July 2002

its not fog, its a lot of smoke sprites next to each other ( a copy of hera i believe ). thats something i must change, although it looks really cool right now <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>

Ive changed (again) the layout an done a new one but using some of the old rooms. here it is.
<img src="http://www.planethalflife.com/roleplayhl/team/blueman/ns_ttro_v3_layout.jpg" border="0">
edit: Oh i forgot to mention, although the rooms look lika a bunch of squares, its just to show where they are, the rooms arent squareish <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

SmokeMasta · July 2002

blue
have u read the mappping rulzors ?

Kidzelda · July 2002

He appears to be following the guidelines fine, why do you ask?

Plaguebearer · July 2002

Because he -isn't-, that's why <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> 2 entrances per hive/marine base, for example.

SmokeMasta · July 2002

they must be 3 minimum there are some other things that needs adjusting just read the mapping guidelines real good be4 us start to draw ur layout

CyonPro · July 2002

I've noticed a number of maps that only provide a single entrance to some hives. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be changed, but I'm saying that he's not the only one.

Also, blueman, are each of those hives at least a 30-second walk (for a marine with default gear) from the marine spawn?

Mendasp · July 2002

hmmmmmm, i haven't started my map yet, so i think i can change my layout..., should we do 2 or 3 entrances? <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> with "multiple entrances" i think it means "2 or more"

blueman · July 2002

ok. well yes ive read the mapping guideling (2 months ago) and i know about the hives thing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, blueman, are each of those hives at least a 30-second walk (for a marine with default gear) from the marine spawn?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Yes, , for example the left hive is 28 seconds away.
but please dont think the rooms will be the white swuares you see, inside each room there should be other things, some corridors, etc... its not just a big squarish room with nothing in it.

Well. about the entrances. Ive seen, for example, hera's layout and it has 1 entrance to each hive, although merk has made a two entrances to it (or 3) they all come from the same room, so its basically 1 entrance per hive. But each hive has its alien only passages, so it can be attacked fairly well if marines camp there. please dont just think the all the white you see is 1 corridor or room, it will have lots of things inside it.

Black_Wolf · July 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, , for example the left hive is 28 seconds away</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

erm, 28 seconds isnt at least 30 seconds . . . just pointing that out (not that 30 seconds is really an exact number anyway, just an estimate of what it should be for better gameplay)

blueman · July 2002

black, 28 or 30 is mainly the same. ive just added a little room more just infront of the hive so it cuts r_speeds down to 600 and now its 33 secs i believe.

ChromeAngel · July 2002

As a mapper and playtester I would say then run times from 25 to 30 seconds are optimum.

Black_Wolf · July 2002

blueman: thats what i said, but i wasnt sure whether 30 second was like a minimum or whether it should just be around them, i wasnt actually saying it needs to be 2 seconds longer.

CyonPro · July 2002

In the PTs, I've noticed that it usually takes a lot longer to get from the base to anything resembling a hive. A lot of mappers use things like ladders, difficult obstacles, slow elevators, or other interesting devices to make the trip to a hive SEEM longer than it really is.

coil · July 2002

For the record, every hive in Hera *does* have multiple entrances. In two of the hives, both entrances are from the same room; however, *that* room has multiple entrances.

The key here is that no hive should have a bottleneck between it and the marine spawn. A bottleneck would be a single hallway which *must* be passed through... hallways are much easier to defend than rooms.

Simillion · July 2002

Just a little opinion: I think you guys are getting way too rulesy on the mappers. They should have the right to be creative. Sure, some things have to be there, like multiple entrances...but don't complain over a 28 second walk, for god's sake. I wouldn't care if it was a 5 minute walk personally, if the mapper wants to be different, then let him or her. Creativity leads to evolution, doesn't it? This is, after all, "natural selection..." Survival of the fittest, in other words. So let the mappers try different things, and whatever the players select as being the best will become the standard. And to add to that point...if you can't map, imho you have absolutely no right to tell someone who can what to do <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Simillion

realityisdead · July 2002

You're correct Simillion, the little things like the comment on the 28 second thing is ridiculous. Your comments on "holding the mappers down" creatively, is bogus though. Bigger restrictions are necessary. For example, in no way is restricting players to the indoors forcing them to be less creative. Quite the opposite, actually. I just made a post about that in another thread, and am now awaiting the flurry of "why not? Let us be creative!" replies.

I think you may be on the same page, but just in case, I thought I'd comment.

SentrySteve · July 2002

Simillion, seeing how is this your first post I dont think you really know how the NS community works. Most, by most I mean 90%, mappers do put thier screenshots on these fourms with the hope of getting feedback. You dont have to be a mapper to give feedback and we arnt 'ordering' or 'bossing' the mapper to do anything. We are giving him ideas on how to make something better, in our eyes. And as for being different, sure, your map can be different but the mapping guildlines are there for a reason. The reason is beucase when a map is made with those guildlines in mind, it plays very well. Just think about one entrance into a hive. It is silly... as for this comment here..

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And to add to that point...if you can't map, imho you have absolutely no right to tell someone who can what to do</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

And if you have no idea how the NS community works, imho you have absolutely no right trying say that we are bossy, and/or restrict mappers.

Sorry if you take offense to my post....

Simillion · July 2002

SentrySteve, of course I take offense at your post, for two reasons:

First off, you didn't even read well or understand my post clearly. Allow me to clarify for you. I didn't say anything about "ordering" or "bossing" the mappers around. Who were you quoting on that, by the way? I already said that one entrance only to the base is a stupid idea, if you were able to read that. And I agree with you that restrictions and guidelines are a good thing. What I meant to communicate was that nitpicking over a few details in a mapper's work is pointless--making a few hallways longer in order to lengthen the running time does not make a map better, it makes it...longer. There's a pretty big difference between suggesting something to improve the map and arguing about a minor detail, especially considering the mappers have deadlines and therefore MUCH MORE IMPORTANT problems to work out. Rules as to what kind of gameplay the mod needs are necessary, so I agree with everything in the mapping guidelines on the website. HOWEVER: I believe in "constructive critism," and if you ask me, complaining about a few seconds worth of walking is a waste of time. The mappers have read the guidelines too; they're not illiterate. Other issues, such as design, texturing, and concepts are MUCH more important, and yes, of course mappers want feedback on that. When I see forum readers commenting on color or light schemes, for example, I know that helps the mapper.

Secondly, I object to your saying I have no idea how the NS community works. Sure, I don't post often, but I've kept track of NS for months, and I read the boards much more then I post on them. Think before you make assumptions about me, please, because that is insulting.

When I said mappers should be allowed creativity, I didn't mean let them blow away the guidelines, I meant that a little experimentation, in moderation, can only yield good things, and if not, well, the map won't be official. No big deal; the mapper can choose to take the risk. It's ultimately their decision.

Ken20banks, I think we're in agreement here too. I think the indoors only rule is optimal for the game, since jetpacks and climbing aliens work best in an indoor environment, but that's obvious. Anyway, I don't want to say anything else on the subject.

-Simillion

(This is exactly why I choose not to post...)

Moleculor · July 2002

Please -don't- stop posting. We need people who can actually write out a good explanation of what they're talking about.

Arguing over two seconds is -not- needed. Realize that the run speed in the NSTR is -not- going to be what everyone runs at in game, and more often than not it will be somewhat slower, thereby making the walk longer (which is <b>not</b> something that needs to be taken into account while mapping at the moment, as the guidelines were made with the fact that the mapper would have the NSTR, and not the full game).

If it were a 20 second difference, then pointing out the guidelines would make sense. 2 seconds of difference is -not- that big of a deal (it could even be bad timing with the watch or whatever).

KungFuSquirrel · July 2002

Realistically, as long as the distances are equal, there's not much to worry about anyway. Granted, you don't want a marine spawn that exits into a hive room, but even a 15-20 second time in NSTR would be fine for a very small map...

Steve, I don't care if you have 492 posts more, he made a valid point in the first place. Lay off. How can you expect him -not- to take offense to a post that basically says "Your post count is smaller than mine so you can't comment, nyeh!"...?

I'm noticing a distinct trend of quite a few people getting more and more elitist (intentionally or not) as release nears. I can see it now... by NS beta 2, we'll already have the "old-school" NSTR vets
Help rambling about how NS sucks because it's infested with "n00bs" who "don't know anything." I feel sick already. Or maybe that's just my post-op pain killers fading away again... Probably shouldn't have tried to push myself for this half-day of work today... :-\

SentrySteve · July 2002

I must have taken his post the whole wrong way -- to me his post says that
1) Mappers should ignore the guildlines (from "if the mapper wants to be different, then let him or her.")
2) He is also saying that if you dont map, then dont give feedback. !?!??!?! Did you all take crazy pills this morning? You dont need to be an 100% A+++ mapper to give good feedback, I have given some great feedback and I cant even come close to what Ken, KFS, Greedo, Merk,etc. are doing. Does that make my comments less important?

Quote from Sim: "I already said that one entrance only to the base is a stupid idea, if you were able to read that"

I am able to read, and I have read your post many times now. No where did you say it was a stupid idea -- if anything you were supporting it with the whole 'let the mapper be different' theme. Also, if you have been following these forums for months, which I doubt, then how was I supposed to know? I am not Miss Cleo. If you get offended by stereotypes, then it amazes me that you can make it in the real world where every gets stereotyped. Your "(This is exactly why I choose not to post...)" line is pretty funny becuase I am sure I was not the only person offened by your "And to add to that point...if you can't map, imho you have absolutely no right to tell someone who can what to do" statment. I took a good amount of offense when you said people who dont map should not give feedback - hence the negative theme is my post.

Quote from Sim: "I didn't say anything about "ordering" or "bossing" the mappers around. Who were you quoting on that, by the way?"

You. Look right here "And to add to that point...if you can't map, imho you have absolutely no right to tell someone who <b>can what to do</b>" When you tell someone what to do, you are bossing them, ordering them.

Moleculor: I am getting the impression that you think I was trying to tell him not to post anymore. I was not saying that at all -- seeing how is post count was 1, at the time; I was under the assumption he has never been here before.

KFS: "Steve, I don't care if you have 492 posts more, he made a valid point in the first place." Yes, maybe he is right about people taking the guildlines too seriously, however I did not reply because of his point that he made. I replied mainly because of his very last sentence, and boy, did that sentence rub me the wrong way. You're whole 'vision' of us being mean to newbies is just ridiculous. I was not negative towards Sim because he is a 'newbie', or has a post count of 1, but because he offended me. I have never been negitive towards newbies before, I am not now, and I will not be in the future.

/me goes for his flame protective suit

realityisdead · July 2002

Don't fret Steve. I understand exactly what you mean. I had a (somewhat) similar reply up until I read his post more carefully. Just bad wording on both ends that caused more confusion than was needed. And yeah, it is frustrating to be accused of flaming someone when you're just trying to help... I can't see you trying to help Sim here, but I understand your point regardless.

Anyyywaaaaay... <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> I think it was just the "If you can't map, dont give feedback" comment that caused your harsh response. And I agree with your stance on that and definitely do fully appreciate the feedback you have given... sometimes that's the best feedback a mapper can get! People who don't make levels all day, and aren't anywhere near as competative can look and take note of certain things that others would miss. But yeah, the "Don't comment if you can't map" statement is dead wrong, and I was thrown off by it at first too... but after ignoring it and reading the rest more carefully, I fully understood his point, and he is correct there.

Basically, there are two kinds of "constructive" criticism: 1) The well thought out kind where you really take the time to look at something and consider and contemplate different suggestions (like I used to enjoy doing before I got so involved with my own level), and...
2) The kind where you throw in a brief comment or two about "This isn't right", or "This isn't good"... usually without any suggestions on how to "make it better"... If you ask me, this variaton seems more like a clever way to cut down on someone's work, disguised as "constructive" criticism.

Number 1 is obviously the way to go. I love seeing and giving out that kind of feedback. I really despise the other kind, as it's not the least bit helpful.

I think this is what Sim was getting at. I can see how you could have thought that he was getting our constructive criticism confused with ranting (so did I at first)... but he obviously didn't. He's referring to varation # 02. Now shake hands. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

SentrySteve · July 2002

/me hands Ken the noble peace prize.....

/me shakes hands with Sim but has one of those shocky things! muahahh

Simillion · July 2002

This whole topic has turned stupid and I hope the moderators delete every post starting with my first post.

Freemantle · July 2002

I concur. This topic isn't so silly anymore. Will someone please wipe it off the face of the earth? We don't need this kind of hostility.

Black_Wolf · July 2002

hmmm, this is strange, my wondering about the time span, and not really being serious about the 2 seconds, its not like it will stop his map from being official, people not reading my post clearing this up, etc, has turned this into a weird thread

and i apologise

blueman · July 2002

i think this is the most extensive thread i started, but from page 1 it has nothing to do with my screenshots <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('> . well, there is no problem about it i always knew i was kinda ###### mapper.... <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> (j/k)

Just some sillyness

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