In Defence Of The Rambo
tbZBeAst
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12755Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12755Members
<div class="IPBDescription">*pulls on asbestos thong*</div> Wait
WAIT!
WAAAAAIIITTT!!!
Yes, I am attempting to justify the Rambo.
Now, I know full well the problems associated with Rambos and Rambo-ing, in terms of commanding and supplying them. The commander cannot rely on an individual to be a team player, likewise they'll more often than not start spamming ABUSZ0R!!!222 should they not get the shotty they are whining about.
Ignoring the moralityand motivation of the Rambo first of all, what does the commander lose? As soon as the connection is made mentally by the commander, that this individual is a loner, and unlikely to respond to orders, instead of lamenting the fact, the comm should use it to his advantage.
Discarding that player as a team member, the comm can exploit the Rambo, and play on their proclivities. The next time the player spawns, thank them for scouting, and ask them to give as much info on enemy movement as possible. You only risk the Rambo then, before commiting more resources, and they are happy because they get to roam on their own, frag hunting. Keeping half an eye on their position, and occaisionally keeping their ammo topped up, they become valuable pawns, and weathervanes of enemy activity. Given enough encouragement, they become diversionary pieces, leading the enemy from your main force. Use the Rambo, integrate him. Make him part of the overall plan.
You might say that the Rambo is unlikely to help you even by checking out certain areas, but then, so what? He's only doing what you assume he will anyway.
Never rely on the Rambo, for he walks his own path. Only by showing him a parallel path can you hope to alter his journey.
Right. I've done my Sun-Tzu impression enough.
WAIT!
WAAAAAIIITTT!!!
Yes, I am attempting to justify the Rambo.
Now, I know full well the problems associated with Rambos and Rambo-ing, in terms of commanding and supplying them. The commander cannot rely on an individual to be a team player, likewise they'll more often than not start spamming ABUSZ0R!!!222 should they not get the shotty they are whining about.
Ignoring the moralityand motivation of the Rambo first of all, what does the commander lose? As soon as the connection is made mentally by the commander, that this individual is a loner, and unlikely to respond to orders, instead of lamenting the fact, the comm should use it to his advantage.
Discarding that player as a team member, the comm can exploit the Rambo, and play on their proclivities. The next time the player spawns, thank them for scouting, and ask them to give as much info on enemy movement as possible. You only risk the Rambo then, before commiting more resources, and they are happy because they get to roam on their own, frag hunting. Keeping half an eye on their position, and occaisionally keeping their ammo topped up, they become valuable pawns, and weathervanes of enemy activity. Given enough encouragement, they become diversionary pieces, leading the enemy from your main force. Use the Rambo, integrate him. Make him part of the overall plan.
You might say that the Rambo is unlikely to help you even by checking out certain areas, but then, so what? He's only doing what you assume he will anyway.
Never rely on the Rambo, for he walks his own path. Only by showing him a parallel path can you hope to alter his journey.
Right. I've done my Sun-Tzu impression enough.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But when the army is restless and distruSUYFl, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Catering to the "restless and distruSUYFl" [rambo] can never be a winning policy.One rambo becomes two, two become three...
-edit- wow cant even spell distrust ful gg filter <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
In summary, what I was saying was: instead of whinging and focussing on the negative aspects of the Rambo, use their positives.
Sun-Tzu contradicited himself on a number of occaisions.
Meh.
distrusuyfl!!
Oh my, that makes me chuckle.
Your whole defense of "Rambos" hangs on by the fact that you presume they're useful. To this day, whilst comming, i've never had a Rambo that reports back on enemy movements, offers any information or anything. All i ever hear back from them is abuse, whining for a hmg and whining that they haven't got any ammo.
I have a strict policy on Rambos; If they don't follow orders, they get nothing. No support, no medpacks, no ammo, no weapons, no ANYTHING.
NS is about teamplay, anyone who screws up the game by not working in a team harms the game for the rest of the team and need to be punished.
This way of commanding, telling everyone to rambo, only really works on smaller maps like Hera, Eclipse, Tanith, and sometimes Bast, but on larger maps like Nancy and Caged usually this is much more difficult.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is about teamplay, anyone who screws up the game by not working in a team harms the game for the rest of the team and need to be punished.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So containing, killing, confusing, and throwing the emeny off balacne isn't helping the team? If I am in Maintence hive camping the top portion, while my ramboing-buddy is on the lower end of southloop, that will give my team plenty of time to take Triad node, and even secure EC. That sounds like teamwork to me....
1 Marine won't be able to contain a hive. Not possible, unless he sits there and spawn camps the entire alien team, which i'm opposed against anyway. The marine would have to be good and the alien team would have to be very poor to allow this to happen.
A lot of what you've said assumes that these Rambos are actually helping the team, which is +very+ rarely the case. I've played hundreds of games, been in contact with a great number of Rambos and i've still to this day failed to find a Rambo that's actually aided the team. Usually it's quite the opposite. Losing a team member because he's walked off of his own free will into a hive while the rest of your order-obeying team are barely scraping by holding a new outpost. Rambos hurt the team.
By all means, if you want people to scout res don't be a lazy commander, waypoint them to res points, say "can you move out to X room", direct them.
90% of the time you find them the opposite side of the map whining that you're a "noob comm" because you didn't supply them a medpack cause they've just walked into a WoL alone.
Rambo's tend to be good shots but they're BAD players. If your comm requests that you go Rambo across the map to scout, that's fine, but i'm talking REAL Rambos here, the arseholes that end up screwing the game up.
LMAO. that's sig-quality.
I agree... MANY MANY times having one or two guys rambo CAN be good. While your team is battling another team of aliens/marines, the rambos can smoetimes get behind enemy lines, and get a phase-gate up... sometimes they can even take out a hive (HMG/JP) alone, without the aliens knowing what hit them.
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You would make a good terrorist negotiator.
Ts" Give us money.
esuna: No
Ts: Give us food.
esuna: No
Ts: Release our comrades or we might do something crazy.
esuna: No, and if you do Ill kill you first. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
If a rambo is off scouting and <b>actualy reporting back useful info</b> and causing distrupting attacks against the aliens then I dont consider him a rambo. By then hes a team player with good recon and attack skills.
Notice how I suggested that two marines, in my Maintenance example, can hold off an entire alien team (first off the aliens would probably rush in single file like they always do, die, then someone would have common sense and say that they should <i>wait</i> *buying the marines time* then attack together - in which case the marine would probably be dead - however, the other guy covering the second way out could easily move in and kill a DC...) And being against spawn camping is just silly. If you team is skilled enough, or if their team made a big enough mistake that every player of theirs is dead - it is foolish not to take advantage of it. You've earned it, so why not use it?
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A lot of what you've said assumes that these Rambos are actually helping the team, which is +very+ rarely the case. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you would see it more if you would actually give them ammo, and health when you can spare the res. That is a key to ramboing. If you cannot stay alive, then you aren’t helping the team. If you are able to kill 2 skulks, but then need a medpack in order to continue, but never receive one, then once again - that isn't helping the team. But in that case, its not the ramboers fault, but the commanders. He could have lived, and possibly have done more damage, if he could have received a mere 2 res in the form of a health pack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->90% of the time you find them the opposite side of the map whining that you're a "noob comm" because you didn't supply them a medpack cause they've just walked into a WoL alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh, and 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The rambos I see are just out there to kill. Their fun in NS is killing, not doing things that require waiting - this includes dying. I have never seen rambos just rush a WOL when they know they are going to die, then have to wait in order to spawn. *Unless they have 1 HP and are parasited, etc*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Losing a team member because he's walked off of his own free will into a hive while the rest of your order-obeying team are barely scraping by holding a new outpost. Rambos hurt the team.
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If you cannot beat them, join them. Why not just admit that you currently have too many rambos on your team, wait for everyone to spawn, then send everyone off to attack the hive. If you do so, an amazing thing will happen – that outpost that needed the whole team to guard will now only need one person because the whole alien team is crying to get back to their hive for fear of it doing down. The most aggressive team usually isn't on the defense a whole lot, and the most aggressive team is usually the one that wins.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rambo's tend to be good shots but they're BAD players. If your comm requests that you go Rambo across the map to scout, that's fine, but i'm talking REAL Rambos here, the arseholes that end up screwing the game up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe its not the rambos fault, but the commanders. After all, the commander leads the team - he is the reflection of the team. You need to drop the "OMGOGM YOU RAMBOED SO NO MEDPACKS!!11ONe" attitude and start drop them _something_ *not like a shotgun, but spare 4 res for 2 medpacks every now and then* then say "hey - there’s more to kill if you rambo off over here." This way they are happy that they can kill, you are happy that they are oppressing the hive.
If the COM orders everyone to rambo off, they're not really rambos anymore since they are now following orders. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
2 Marines doesn't constitute Ramboing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeh, and 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The rambos I see are just out there to kill. Their fun in NS is killing, not doing things that require waiting - this includes dying. I have never seen rambos just rush a WOL when they know they are going to die, then have to wait in order to spawn. *Unless they have 1 HP and are parasited, etc*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If their fun is killing, they're playing the wrong game tbh. The game is designed for teamwork, the game ceases to function without teamwork. The more players there are not using teamwork, the less the game works, the less it's balanced and the less chance you have of victory. I state for the third time, Rambos hurt the team.
It does happen, from time to time, that a Rambo will surprise me and actually achieve something worthwhile, like taking down a res tower or getting a PG up somewhere. Killing 2 skulks does nothing, they respawn, great, a lot achieved there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you cannot beat them, join them. Why not just admit that you currently have too many rambos on your team, wait for everyone to spawn, then send everyone off to attack the hive. If you do so, an amazing thing will happen – that outpost that needed the whole team to guard will now only need one person because the whole alien team is crying to get back to their hive for fear of it doing down. The most aggressive team usually isn't on the defense a whole lot, and the most aggressive team is usually the one that wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll put it this way, if you were on hera, you've got a tf and pg up at holoroom and you're teching up. You need res, infact, res is so important you have a tf and pg here to protect it. If this lot is at the nasty end of a skulk rush and you +NEED+ your best shots there (which, unfortunately the Rambo is usually one of), if you end up losing it because one of your good marines is the other side of the map, what then, ok, run at the hive with level 1 weapons because you lost two rts totalling up at a cost of 165 res lost (1 tf, 4 turrets, pg, 2 rts) and on top of that you lose the res gained by these two nodes. Good shooters are the ones that should be following orders the most since every single one of their bullets counts a lot more than some nub following blindly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe its not the rambos fault, but the commanders. After all, the commander leads the team - he is the reflection of the team. You need to drop the "OMGOGM YOU RAMBOED SO NO MEDPACKS!!11ONe" attitude and start drop them _something_ *not like a shotgun, but spare 4 res for 2 medpacks every now and then* then say "hey - there’s more to kill if you rambo off over here." This way they are happy that they can kill, you are happy that they are oppressing the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A good commander is nothing without a good marine team. The argument works both ways. The commander needs the marines to follow orders and do what he says to command a successful game. If none of the marines listen, nothing gets achieved, the game is lost. You can blame either if you want, but the marines won't win without both competant marines and comm.
If i give an order, i want it followed, if anyone has a problem with the order, i'm open for suggestions, but bottom line is, if they ignore the order or blatantly just say no, they're not getting anything. If they don't benefit the team, really, why do they deserve even the most basic of privaledges?
Bottom line, we have different opinions, can we just agree to disagree?
Well most of the time when I skulk I can kill 3-4 rambos without dying and then repeadatly kill them throughout the round by waiting in ambush for them because a rambo does the exact same thing every time he spawns.
If you think being able to kill newbie skulks while crouching in the corner of a hallway for 10 minutes is a valid tactic then you might be a Rambo.
The Rambo is a double-edged sword. While they can be useful, when killed, they become an extreme setback in resources and morale.
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The post doesnt justify the rambo, it just shows ways of making the best of a bad situation.
Yeh - that is correct. Luckly I dont command that many games *althought if no one wants to comm ill gladly hop in* and I can see how, and why, so many people hate rambos. But one thing I do never see is a rambo who decides to follow orders and start building/etc. My point is that you should still try to use this to your advantage. Like I said, rambos are there to kill - point them in the direction of the hive, drop a medpack for them every now and then (assuming they actually kill things) and just let him be. He will help the team when he shoots the node that sends half the alien team accross half the map to investigate, but he will not help the team when it comes time to setup a new base. You just gotta know your players, and know how to use them to your advantage.
ramboing is important part of the team imo a good one can keep the aleins in there hive indefanatly with some ammo spam now and again.
w0w so he dont listen to orders, if hes skilled enuff a good comm will relize that the hole maps freee and get the rest of the team to spread out and build every res node on the map ( within reason ) = w1n
1) If they are good, they can do quite a bit of damage
2) Something like 50% of gorge casualties in 2.0 testing are due to rambos,
3) They're good for recon
4) Theyre good for taking out nodes
The best is a rambo who does follow orders(and you order him to rambo). You cant expect a rambo to win the game for you but by the same token you cant expect to win if you have every member on your team in a group, you will move too slowly and will not be able to establish any map control.
If this post has anything to do with the scoreboard, we had a pretty lengthy discussion with Flayra about the scoreboard last night and I think he can better understand the points for adding a scoreboard, but unfortunately he informed us that he simply does not have the time to work on a scoreboard even if he wanted to, so don't look for it in 2.0.
Yes, I think many people confuse these two things. I do believe true ramboes who know how the game is supposed to be played yet don't follow orders and build (instead just rack up kills) are a tiny rarity. There are however many people who wander around the map solo, because:
a.) Are newbies and don't know maps.
b.) Don't have any clue where teammates are (no PGs) and communication is lacking. Usually separated from the main group via death.
I usually fall to the b.) category (as do many, many others to my knowledge) so I hope I'm not mistaken for a "rambo".
And this is where the logic goes haywire. According to the general pubplay definition, a rambo is a player <i>not</i> paying attention to orders or his teams sake in general - rambos are directely associated to the "OMG comm gimme teh JP/HMG!!!1" and "FFS, you suck! Eject1!!1" - symptomatics.
On a more Beta Information - related note, in the latest builds, ramboing is a tactic that can prove lethal unless used very cautiously; I've yet to meet the team surviving if less than two thirds are in constant coordination. So, the argument about rambos contributing to their teams gain is, while still correct under a framework of assumptions, losing ground.
Take the most skilled vet and send him into the fray ninja-style, could they dominate?
PS: PT/Vet anwser only pls.
Or, alternatively, like my plan, ignore them. Disregard them from the team entirely. If i have a strategy and 7 out of 8 players (excluding myself, as comm) are following it and it's going well, why would i bother paying attention to someone running off and needlessly getting themselves killed.
The commander is there to give orders, not follow them.