Tie Goes To The Dealer...?
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">OK, who should win if...?</div> Was just thinking about this, and I don't have an opinion at present, but who shoud win when you have TWO teams maxxed out with level 3 tech? In an ideal situation level 3 tech should be equal on both teams, which would suggest that any game that gets to level 3 tech would be a stalemate. (although that likely wouldn't happen very often)
So what do people think personally? If both the marines and aliens get level 3 tech, and they have an equal number of res nodes, who should come out on top?
Regards,
Savant
So what do people think personally? If both the marines and aliens get level 3 tech, and they have an equal number of res nodes, who should come out on top?
Regards,
Savant
Comments
whoever has the best strategy and teamwork and FPS skills?
or am i just being cynical?
Regards,
Savant
lol yup. see who gets bored/tired first
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game should continue until people start dropping
Edit - Or just wait for a timely server crash.
Perhaps the marines intended to let the other tech up, but had good positions to put a couple of hmg clips into each hive at the same time, splitting the defence of the aliens allowing an easy win?
Perhaps the aliens spent a lot on pressuring MS, but a couple of gorges went round and BB's the crap outta the marines nodes while they were defending base
tactics and strategy... its what its got to boil down to at the end of the game
This is a 'real time strategy' game afterall.
This was the intent with the Onos, was it not? If Aliens are maxed out they can all afford to go Onos when they die.
1 Onos > 1 HA/HMG lvl 3 Marine
Although I think they would be more effective used with other creatures as well. All the lvl3 additions are ment to end the game. Onos, Bile Bomb, Xeno... Babblers are for fun and Spores are for smoking out campers.
Any organised Alien team can take down any Marine base in this situation but the reverse is not neccesarily true.
though 1 onos>1HAHMG you cannot fit say 6 oni around the marine team if they are close together, it takes only 43 shots to kill an onos with 6 marines half welding, half shooting, staying together in corridors (theres alway corridors) then only 1or2 oni can attack at a time, oni will die quite easily, marines walk to the hive take it out and no more oni. and med spam is always helpful. it takes 8 onos claw attaks to kill ha marine. though dunno if charge would work
Xenocide can't kill fully armoured HA marines obviously, otherwise it would be a complete waste to spend 20 res on HA when the aliens have 3 hives if a completely free skulk can kill it in one shot.
A team of onos is tactically unsound. But what you didnt say is the version your talking about, although in the eyes of you vets 1.04 cant have the lvl3 stalemate, as apparently onos is big bad and scarey, even tho one HMG clip can kill two of them...
SO on that im guessing you are talking about 2.0, IN which case, take your argument elsewhere as we have no idea yet how things work in 2.0. infact ask us in a couple of weeks.
On the other hand however, if the commander isnt silly enough to kit everyone out in HA he can send a lone marine into/near a hive to set up a siege base, and with a bit of luck it will sudenly become lvl3 vs lvl2.
Having said that tho, a single skulk in 1.04 can take out a HA HMG in a single leap, which i believe has been removed from 2.0 anyways so the tactic of a team of leaping skulks is out the window <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course the game environment can change things. The above scenario tends to place the marines on the defensive, purely because by a 3 hive situation the aliens will have control and fluid movement over a large portion of the map. They will strike where they want to strike and with sufficient co-ordination they would be able to pull it off. The wild card is however grenade launchers. 2 or so marines standing back with these weapons could hold that primary force at bay, perhaps long enough for other marines to mount a counter attack. Intriguing as it might be to theorise that a commander might want to dispatch these forces to counter the secondary alien squad, a more aggressive stratagy which is more likely to bring about an alien defeat would be to sacrifice a few of the forward bases in order to get a quick seige base or phase base up. A commander truely committed to making gambles might leave 3 marines at the forward base near the primary squad of aliens armed with gren launchers to hold the aliens at bay, and send the rest of his team, armed to the teeth, through the new phase to, most probably, a hive.
Now the situation changes radically. Suddenly it is the aliens who are pushed onto the defensve. The alien force could do what the marine commander nmight well have done: sacrifice a hive in order to break into that forward base. However, for the aliens, they may very well come out second best; the forward base may have been guarding one or two res points, but the main base is still to be tackled, and the loss of 3rd hive abilities hurt.
First priority now for the marines has to be a very rapid fortification of their newly captured area. Although of course no static defense will hold the full force of an alien assult, they can use it for their advantage. The aliens by now are possibly unlikely to be focusing on the detrsuction of more marine forward bases: the loss of a hive, whilst not critical, is still a harsh blow. The loss of at least one res point also affects the ability for alien casualities to rapidly re-evolve. Res for kills can compensate for this, but if marines arn't dropping then res isn't coming. Whilst the primary alien force at this stage could press on to the main marine base, the loss of one onos here could swing the entire battle. Weakened by the loss of the 3rd hive, the aliens are stripped of such vital abilities as web and primal scream, which give such an important advantage in the battles. Most likely the best course for the aliens would be to fall back and try to retake the hive; a savvy marine commander by this stage will likely have enough surplus res to do a fast relocate anyway.
This secondary senario of course relies on the marines not being detected. One scounting sculk with scent of fear could ruin their day. But by this stage most aliens are needed on the front lines; and most alien players would be sorely tempted to think that with the marines on the (supposed) defensive, they could be a little lax in scouting. Even if the marine strike force is located, it may very well not be suppressed soon enough. The main strike force of aliens would probably be more preoccupied with hitting the marines' bases, although teams can and will vary in their approach towards the overall tactical situation. Victory for the marines is by no means assured when that 3rd hive is taken down, but the stratigic implications are far reaching. It is the alien team who is now forced to attack the marines where they wish to be attacked: directly where the fortifications will be most built up, if the commander has build up quickly enough. Hive locations can be nasty places for alien teams to fight: often large, open areas that favour marines. Once again, losing one onos here can turn the game. The alien team may be more recklass in their attempt to reclaim this hive, and one fatal slippup would be seeing an onos cut down. In a hive room situation, with strong defenses and marine forces concentrating their fire, killing an onos would not be a difficult prospect. That respawning alien may have enough res to become an onos again (although at 100 res it can be difficult to imagine) or one of it's team-mates might but res will be the deciding factor now. The marines can rest a little easier: their forward bases and res points are likely safe for the time being. Even if the aliens crush the marines out of their new hive, the commander will have stockpiled enough res to requip a new squad that can now take the fight to another hive. Before the new hive can even be built, the alien team is hit by another assualt at another hive. By this stage it is likely that co-ordination for the aliens will be breaking down, and more desperate individual efforts may start to occur. The inevitable result of the alien teamwork slipping will be a marine victory, because against a teir 3 marine team outside a hive even a lone onos stands little or no chance.
But this focus on an offensive marine team takes us back to the start of the scenario. Why would the marines not simply try their harest to take that primary alien force out. The central reason would have to be that they probably cannot. That strike team of the aliens is much like a nuke: where-ever it strikes, virtually nothing will stop it. Grenades simply serve as a delaying measure; coupled with base defenses those few marines can hold the main force off for enough time for their teammates to hatch a nasty surprise. But even if the entire marine team was there in force, with HA/HMG/GL/welders and one or 2 jetpackers it is unlikely that they could succeed. Teir 3 alien abilities are simply too over-powering: if the aliens were to lose that onos in this battle it would make little differance: the marines would be overwhelmed and the aliens would simply keep on moving directly to the main base. Teir 3 alien power simply cannot be stopped; hence why the marines must try to instead take on teir 2 aliens, against whom they have an advantage. Secondly the marines must try to fight these higher evolutions at a location that gives the marines a tactical advatage: hive rooms offer that AND offer a vital stratigic advantage. Thanks to phase gates marines can be back in the action in seconds after dying, fully re-equipped; aliens have to treak all the way back from a hive. Phase gates could also deliver troops back to the front lines against teir 3 aliens; but that will inevitably be a futile struggle.
All up it must ultimatly come down to the crucial decisions that the two teams make at those pivotal points. However, one factor is clear: for the marine commander, his top priority must be the elimination of at least one hive. This takes precidence over any other decision: one hive must fall for the aliens his team is fighting to be brought down to a managable level. Whether he achieves it through stealth as I have suggested or if he uses brute force (from experiance I think this would be less likely to succeed) he must focus on that goal. By the same token, it cannot be a victory that leaves the commander with no more bases apart from the one in the hive. But if the aliens are to divide their forces to take on 2 bases, the commander can as well, and with distress beacon, strong static defenses such as electricity and phase gates the marines can hold the defensive better than teir 2 aliens can assult it. Once the higher evolutions fall the marines can leave their static defenses to take the slack with maybe one phase jumping base defender, whilst the rest of the force assults the final hives. Whilst not a guareenteed victory (a re-invigorated alien side could pull off a comback with heavy support) it would be difficult for the aliens to recover at this point, especially as if they do mount that counter attack, the commander will likely have a secondary force ready to strike at any hive defense weaknesses to set up another phase/seige base.
The hive is the swing factor. With teir 3 abilities, aliens can walk through just about anything the marines throw at them. Take that down a notch to tier 2 abilities, and the whole game changes.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say it should be like a game of chess, both sides have an equal potential of winning untill the other side makes a bad move and fails to see the damn knight who puts the king in check and takes the rook.
They have created a game that has generated this much discussion out of a perfect world scenerio...
Flayra....
there was a stalemate on the cofr server last week. the rines had 1 hive locked down hard. there was no way through it. the aliens had 2 hives. the rines and aliens kept goin at it for about an hour. 5 of the alien team members got bored, and left. the marines then won. it was funny though. during the game, both teams acknowledged the stalemate, and it turned into a boring match.
If the alien team was truly committed to their sledgehammer assault on the marines forward base, they'd give up their gorge. After building a small group of support chambers, the gorge could evolve into a combat class. This would give the aliens a 6-5 advantage in addition to their natural combat superiority. The forward base would fall quickly. The aliens would then be free to turn their full attention to the hive under attack, likely resulting in another alien victory. The res lost on two failed marine outposts would be a greater loss to the marines than 2-3 alien casulties.
Alternatively, the alien team could decide against attack. Using their greater mobility, it would be a simple matter to deny the marines freedom of movement. This would leave the gorge(s) free to spread chambers of love across the uncontested areas of the map. Territorial control established, the alien could settle in for a nice long siege which bleeds the marines dry.