Listen guys, NS 2.0 has been out 2 days. The simple fact is that <u>no one knows what's overpowered yet</u>. That's right, not even you who has tried every single possible strategy that 2.0 has to offer in 2 days. Everyone playing 2.0 right now except for Vets and PTs are newbies, including you and me.
I've already explained the counter to turret farms and you guys are ignoring my arguments so I'm not going to bother. Suffice it to say that there is a counter and most aliens do not currently know how to take advantage of it, so turrets seem overpowered to you guys.
Here's the summary: Everyone in 2.0 is still a newbie. Newbies are not capable of properly judging balance, so please stop trying. I'm not insulting anyone but these threads are just irritating because you guys really don't have enough knowledge on the matter to make a good argument. Many of the things said here are simply blatantly false or gross exaggerations. PLEASE take a break from the critic duty and play the game for a couple weeks and then come back to tell us about balance, alright?
History repeats itself; this EXACT same thing happened with 1.0. Most of the complaints back then were unfounded. It was actually many months before the real balance issues with 1.0X came to light, and it will be the same with 2.0. Please stop pretending that you know all there is to know about 2.0's balance because you do not.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> never killed more than 2 HA in a row as a skulk and they were low on health. I dont think you could pull that off on a regular basis in 2.0. You must have been very lucky or fighting the worst players on earth <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, only happened once this far, on Voogru's, I was cloaked and then attacked them from behind <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyway, you dont go toe-to-toe wit the marines, you uses stealth and screw them confuzzled <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 10:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Listen guys, NS 2.0 has been out 2 days. The simple fact is that <u>no one knows what's overpowered yet</u>. That's right, not even you who has tried every single possible strategy that 2.0 has to offer in 2 days. Everyone playing 2.0 right now except for Vets and PTs are newbies, including you and me.
I've already explained the counter to turret farms and you guys are ignoring my arguments so I'm not going to bother. Suffice it to say that there is a counter and most aliens do not currently know how to take advantage of it, so turrets seem overpowered to you guys.
Here's the summary: Everyone in 2.0 is still a newbie. Newbies are not capable of properly judging balance, so please stop trying. I'm not insulting anyone but these threads are just irritating because you guys really don't have enough knowledge on the matter to make a good argument. Many of the things said here are simply blatantly false or gross exaggerations. PLEASE take a break from the critic duty and play the game for a couple weeks and then come back to tell us about balance, alright? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your counter to turret farms was healing spray/BB which is soo annoying to aim with, IF you actually manage to find a spot where you can hit and not be targetted by turrets (next to impossible) Any decent marine squad will just rush you. We didnt ignore your argument, we pierced them
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont think we're complaining, and if we do that's because we care (good thing! ) The thread's name was early thoughts and we're discussing whether turret farms are overpowered or not, no need to get overly-defensive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Aug 2 2003, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Aug 2 2003, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerk is supposed to be a supportive class, surrounding teammates in umbra, and such.
Your idea that an onos will get redempted so soon only works under perfect conditions. Unless it's a wide open area, the ono stomps ( fine, it cant on first hive, but by the time you're onos the second hive is usualy up), eats a marine, gores the others, and redempts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just playing support = boring Everyone wants some kills now and then to boost your ego or something. Just spamming umbra all the time is like sitting on the bench in a football/soccer game watching the others having a great time playing.
Yes stomp works great in narrow hallways or if the marines are all lined up.(And in narrow hallways onos have hard times moving around making it a risky gamble) But if they´re spread just a bit there is enough hmg/shottie/nade fire from the not stunned players to redeem/kill the onos that tries to eat the stunned ones. And stomp doesn´t last very long. C´mon something must be good about an alien that costs 100 res and drops like a stone on Jupiter.
Okay, let me try to put this in a way that you guys might understand. Let's say we're in 1.04 right now. One day we find out that there is a server that is completely inhabited by people who have never played NS before. After these people have been playing for 2 days, they come onto the forum with their keen observations on 1.04 balance. They tell us that O chambers and D chambers are overpowered because you can put spam them in one hive area and it's very hard to get through with LMGs without being eaten. They are told by the forumgoers that you can siege the area, or tech up to HA/HMG, or any of the other things that can be done in that situation. To that they respond that Sieging is too hard because skulks eat them while they attempt to set it up, and it's too hard to get res for an HA push because skulks keep eating their res. The rest of the community laughs their ideas out because they clearly do not know what they are talking about and don't understand how to counter these sort of strategies.
Now imagine that every single server is full of these players, and the community that knows better(Vets and PTs) is much much smaller. That's where we are right now. Get it?
I think the game was made perfectly balanced and all, marines have super uber strats, and so do the aliens, collide these together and you have some fun. I successfully conquered a game as Commander and did it in only 18 minutes! Was like a record for when the client release came out =p. We did have alot of LONGer.. games after that but, now, they are shortening. Onos devouring your favorite enemy is fun =)
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Edit: This forum needs a delete feature... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why did you delete your post? Anyway, Sieging isnt that hard, not considering how hard it is to take down a turret farm. I think people have tried it all, Bilebomb, Xenocide, Onos and all that.. Also, I dont think you could compare Alien defence with Marine defence, Marines are ranged, Aliens are mostly not. Marines had GL so take down WOLs, they also had Siege, none which you really entered the fray and put yourself at risk (organized marines that is) Aliens have to go toe-to-toe with the turrets while 10+marines are shooting at you, it's just too much, I dont have a problem with turret outpost, just turret farm base. Your strategy requires a perfect case scenario, and IS very hard to do, if you can shoot the turret with the low range BB, marines will most likely be able to shoot in return, and weld the stuff with the cheap welder. Just because we have only played it in 2 days doesnt mean we cant raise a discussion about it, as I see it, they need a value tweak
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Listen guys, NS 2.0 has been out 2 days. The simple fact is that <u>no one knows what's overpowered yet</u>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but I will point out that in other games like SC, some overpowered strats were found VERY fast. 6 pool rushing was done a week into SC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've already explained the counter to turret farms and you guys are ignoring my arguments so I'm not going to bother. Suffice it to say that there is a counter and most aliens do not currently know how to take advantage of it, so turrets seem overpowered to you guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with them for the most part, but it is a lot harder to counter a turret farm than you make out. Just like it is a lot harder to counter instant shotgun rushes or onos devour.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's the summary: Everyone in 2.0 is still a newbie. Newbies are not capable of properly judging balance, so please stop trying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, these forums just remind me of my starcraft days more and more. The first time the mutalisk rush got bought up people said that too. Look where that went...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not insulting anyone but these threads are just irritating because you guys really don't have enough knowledge on the matter to make a good argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Protoss counters against Mutalisk and 6 pool rushes were often discussed but nothing practical ever came up. Both were discovered quite quickly in the life of SC.
This is a GOOD thing. The faster issues are presented, the faster you get viable counters. The worst people are certain PT's and such who say, "It's perfectly balanced you just need to figure it out" without actually posting ANYTHING constructive as to the supposed counter. Such statements are worthless and they shouldn't bother making them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, if only two or three aliens can co-operate while the whole of the marines acts as team (which is pretty much the only way to keep a turret farm under constant attack working), they seem to be doing better.
Sorry, but that's it. There is no Onos killing all turrets anymore; like with the marines, the aliens will have to join their forces in the endgame. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree: this is the way that it should be. The problem is that in the midgame, bad teamwork = you lose. In the endgame, where aliens are winning, bad teamwork = the game lasts an extra two hours of nil strategy, just endless deathmatching around marine base. The former feels right, and it's still fun if you lose. The latter gets old real real fast, and isn't all that fun for either team.
In other words: I agree there should be punishment for bad teamwork. I disagree that the punishment should EVER involve boredom, especially when you want to bring in new players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree with them for the most part, but it is a lot harder to counter a turret farm than you make out. Just like it is a lot harder to counter instant shotgun rushes or onos devour.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it is very hard, I doubt anyone will disagree. However, this is more from pub mentality than anything else, me thinks. I've now played through both 30 minute long turret farm fests, and 5 minute long ones. The main difference is quality of aliens. Sometimes, you'll have people rushing in on their own, not coordinating, not covering gorges, not umbra-ing, not sporing, etc... And that makes it much harder. However, with organization, they can be taken down, especially since any evolution is open with the huge number of res nodes you better have. Get a lerk, some gorgies, some oni, and made a skulk, and voila. Skulk can leap+xeno marines softened by spores, oni go in, smack around a bunch of turrets under umbra protection, and gorges can bilebomb while the turrets and marines are distracted (note the coordination aspect). It tends to be fairly productive, it's just hard on pubs (especially right now).
However, I imagine everything will become a lot more organized with time. If the vets can't stop aliens smashing their turret farms, I doubt we will do better in the long run.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 06:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay, let me try to put this in a way that you guys might understand. Let's say we're in 1.04 right now. One day we find out that there is a server that is completely inhabited by people who have never played NS before. After these people have been playing for 2 days, they come onto the forum with their keen observations on 1.04 balance. They tell us that O chambers and D chambers are overpowered because you can put spam them in one hive area and it's very hard to get through with LMGs without being eaten. They are told by the forumgoers that you can siege the area, or tech up to HA/HMG, or any of the other things that can be done in that situation. To that they respond that Sieging is too hard because skulks eat them while they attempt to set it up, and it's too hard to get res for an HA push because skulks keep eating their res. The rest of the community laughs their ideas out because they clearly do not know what they are talking about and don't understand how to counter these sort of strategies.
Now imagine that every single server is full of these players, and the community that knows better(Vets and PTs) is much much smaller. That's where we are right now. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only reason marines won on pub servers in 1.04 was because of all the exploits. Before the players discovered the nearly invincible JP/HMG rush, crouch bug, processing double siege the res imbalance on large servers towards marines... the aliens totally owned the marines so dont tell that time will balance something that isn´t. Pub and clan play aren´t the same and will never be. 1.04 without Jp exploit and 6 vs 6 on a pub = alien qwnage. And you assume 1.04 was balanced in your post but it wasnt. Either it was marine ownage due to the mentioned exploits or alien ownage before they were discovered. All the Marine wins in 1.04 pub play didn´t happened because of good strategies but because of exploits that were never meant to be in the game. So if newbies in 1.04 came to our forum to complain about alien dominance after 2 days they were perfectly right. As long as we played the game as the devs intended aliens were overpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As long as we played the game as the devs intended aliens were overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right, but I will point out that in other games like SC, some overpowered strats were found VERY fast. 6 pool rushing was done a week into SC.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did Starcraft have many weeks of testing by the most veteran and experienced people its community before its release? No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The worst people are certain PT's and such who say, "It's perfectly balanced you just need to figure it out" without actually posting ANYTHING constructive as to the supposed counter. Such statements are worthless and they shouldn't bother making them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? With their hours upon hours of experience, they apparently KNOW that turret farms are balanced enough. It's up to you to figure out why this is so, whether by watching demos or experimenting yourself.
I'll admit that bast is a pretty hard marine start to siege. But with most others, just put up d chambers and movement chambers nearby--with adrenaline and movements, a gorge can spam unlimited bilebombs, and a fade can shoot unlimited acid rockets. Just think of it this way: if you can kill one turret, or kill/devour one marine (with a shottie, welder, hmg or grenade launcher) for every alien that dies (1-3 res), you are causing the marines a net loss in resources. And with some teamwork, it's not at all hard to do this.
Say with a six-man assault team, you have a two onoses rush in and stomp/devour, have a skulk xeno some immobilized marines in a corner, have the gorge/fade shoot endlessly, with the lerk primal screaming to give everyone a boost and umbraing guys under fire. Let's say the unlikely thing happens, and ALL the aliens die. If that should happen, the marines will get 6-18 res. All the aliens have to do is kill 2 turrets, the resource tower, or an observatory. It's even better if the marines lose the arms lab or an infantry portal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Did Starcraft have many weeks of testing by the most veteran and experienced people its community before its release? No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually yes it did, and in fact it had a player pool of about <b>600</b> or so and was later expanded. I believe that is bigger than NS. Same with WC3 and in both cases many rushes/abuse strats got through the wire. The same thing occured with Brood War and that had <b>the</b> top starcraft players in it.
So you lose that one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? With their hours upon hours of experience, they apparently KNOW that turret farms are balanced enough. It's up to you to figure out why this is so, whether by watching demos or experimenting yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this gives them a god given right to make useless unconstructive comments that just aggravate people further? I would love them to share their experience and help people get to the point of countering this stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just think of it this way: if you can kill one turret, or kill/devour one marine (with a shottie, welder, hmg or grenade launcher) for every alien that dies (1-3 res), you are causing the marines a net loss in resources. And with some teamwork, it's not at all hard to do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, I don't even think that turret farms are much of a problem. Aliens aren't used to having to work together, in 1.04 you could take down a TF by yourself as a fade or onos. Now you can't because turrets aren't actually completely useless anymore.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
PTs/Vets played with an ever-changing version, where values was tweaked once a week and so, I think they should start listening and post what THEY did against it, instead of the "you have only played the game 2 days, you dont know what's balanced or not"
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Aug 2 2003, 01:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Aug 2 2003, 01:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>PTs/Vets played with an ever-changing version, where values was tweaked once a week and so</b>, I think they should start listening and post what THEY did against it, instead of the "you have only played the game 2 days, you dont know what's balanced or not" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the thing you see, hit it directly on the head and nobody has considered this.
In SC a mutalisk rush was tested early on and failed, but in a later version worked perfectly. The reason for this was changes to the damage types of certain structures which MADE this rush possible. When the versions change often things that previously weren't a worry suddenly become them. This happens with all beta testing really.
One major thing I feel like bringing up between Blizzard games and NS, is the type of person both groups are trying to appeal to.
With the latest version of NS, its obviously been geared torwards organized play with greater emphasis on teamwork.
Blizzard games are geared torward the general mass of whiney screamy pissy moany 12 year olds who've never played an rts other than a Blizzard product.
Odds are with a Blizzard game, enough nubs cry about a tactic in the forums, rather than overcome it, it'll get slapped with the nerf stick. That's just the kind of company Blizzard is, they don't care about higher levels of play, they're interested in the bottom line, and that gets pushed up when Billy from Backwater tells his middle school friends "omg i am teh king of w4rcr4ft, i b34t teh level 12 l4st night!" and the rest of them start playing.
The Vets and PT's aren't making useless, unconstructive comments. They're telling you to suyf because you don't know what you're talking about, which I feel will be the case for at least another week or two. It might not be what you want to hear, but looking at both sides of the story, I think one group has more weight backing their words than the other. Others can try to discredit them on whatever moral basis, backwards logic, or whatever relationships they wish to draw on from other games, but this is NS, and they're the ones who've tested for months on end.
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Aug 2 2003, 06:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Aug 2 2003, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> PTs/Vets played with an ever-changing version, where values was tweaked once a week and so, I think they should start listening and post what THEY did against it, instead of the "you have only played the game 2 days, you dont know what's balanced or not" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gee, let's see:
<b>Silverfox:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorge is the building killer. The Bile Bomb makes short work out of any marine out post and two Gorges that back each other up are increadibly effective. Shoot, if you got a Lerk and a Fade or Oni backing them up, they're pretty much unstopable. And thats only 3-4 players on a team taking out a single outpost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Note that we weren't discussing last-stance scenarios, but general turret farming back then.)
<b>Me:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most alien teams seem to fall apart in the end game. You just have to have the Onos and the Gorge and the Lerk and the Fade there. This is a teamplay game. Don't expect that to change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Picking up on a more detailed post by Seikeden - I was of course referring to a combination of Charge, Bilebombs, Umbra, and Swipe/Blink here.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If your fellow aliens were foolish enough to run into the farm one at a time, they afforded the marines an easy source of income thanks to the new resource for kills system.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basically it - attack amassed, use support abilities, make the powerhouses distract enemy fire, and let the Gorges lob as many Bombs as possible.
Aegeri, you make a number of very good points, but the matter of fact is that we found counters to turret farming and that they were presented early in this discussion, although many ignored them as the focus of this thread shifted later on.
I agree that we <i>will</i> see unbalanced strategies sooner or later - only that until now, I've not <i>yet</i> seen them.
Also, I'll happily agree that the endgame can be drawn out too far - this needs definetely remedy, and I'm not going to start arguing about it. What many in here claimed was however that late game turretfarming was practically an uncounterable strategy, which is just not the case.
[edit]xioutlawix:
Nobody tells anyone in here to "SUYF". Please watch yourself.[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Odds are with a Blizzard game, enough nubs cry about a tactic in the forums, rather than overcome it, it'll get slapped with the nerf stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why it took a few months for the first major balancing patches, which didn't nerf anything (the mutalisk was unchanged in fact).
Oh what's that, you were utterly wrong? Good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Vets and PT's aren't making useless, unconstructive comments. They're telling you to suyf because you don't know what you're talking about,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is, a completely useless unconstructive comment. Good job for proving what I've been saying.
nemesis <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aegeri, you make a number of very good points, but the matter of fact is that we found counters to turret farming and that they were presented early in this discussion, although many ignored them as the focus of this thread shifted later on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[QUOTE=Dashel,Aug 2 2003, 11:11 AM] [QUOTE=></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You guys honestly think we all sat on our **** testing 2.0 ..?[/QUOTE]
Actually, that's the impression I'm starting to get or I wouldn't be manually chaning maps on my server after a 2, hour stalemate. I just can't believe that NS 2 has so much polish and refinement but the gameplay changes so far, suck IMO. And I think Seikeden is totally correct. Show me one RTS where one team has a tiny fraction of the res of another that survives for more than a few minutes. Its sad but I've manually changed maps more than I've finished on my server because it becomes BORING AND POINTLESS to wage an infinite war against the late game, turret farmed, marine start. And while you special guys who have been playtesting may have found strats that worked for you in beta they are no working in pubs(.) Sure, the game has already been out two days but no miraculous strategy or team work will solve this. This must be corrected in game IMO. <!--QuoteEnd]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Everyone in 2.0 is still a newbie. Newbies are not capable of properly judging balance, so please stop trying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I think being a newb give me an insight that the devs and playtesters do not have, a different perspective. So instead of being so apologetic why not hope they officially comment on their thoughts/counters during the testing phase. Say what you will about this 'n00b' but I still think there is something wrong with certain aspects of the game. I still give props to the devs and the overall level of polish they have brought to NS. Keep up the good work. I just don't want them to think their work is over yet <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I just can't believe that the end game stalemate was not once discovered/remedied during playtesting. That is all. Overall the enhancements are great and I have a lot of respect for Flayra and crew. It is nothing personal to the devs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, I'll happily agree that the endgame can be drawn out too far - this needs definetely remedy, and I'm not going to start arguing about it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm fairly sure we'll see an end to the majority of these long end-game stalemates in a week or two.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nobody tells anyone in here to "SUYF". Please watch yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not directly, but the general intention of the statement seems to be what's getting across to most, and I can honestly see how some of the resistance encountered from the community would warrant such an outburst eventually. People are rampantly posting on the forums about how unfair/abusive a tactic is with seemingly little or no time actually having played vs. said tactic. Get out of the forums and back into the game and try harder to counter!
<span style='color:white'>Maybe I should draw it out: Nobody tells anyone to "SUYF". Period. I'll take care of that.
These boards prohibit hostitlty, for <i>all</i> members, including PTs, vets, and devs.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--xioutlawix+Aug 2 2003, 02:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Aug 2 2003, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nobody tells anyone in here to "SUYF". Please watch yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not directly, but the general intention of the statement seems to be what's getting across to most, and I can honestly see how some of the resistance encountered from the community would warrant such an outburst eventually. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I already interpreted those posts directly as such :/ I'd rather just here "this is what we did" and TRY it for myself. Much more useful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People are rampantly posting on the forums about how unfair/abusive a tactic is with seemingly little or no time actually having played vs. said tactic. Get out of the forums and back into the game and try harder to counter!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos redeeming is being fixed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm not playing because I don't have the money <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Expensive going to a netcafe and I haven't downloaded it by my modem yet so I can play at my flat (doing that tonight). So I just have to think about it in the mean time.
Oh you edited, <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--xioutlawix+Aug 2 2003, 10:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Aug 2 2003, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unfortunately the main mentality when trying to take the marines in their last-stand turret farmed base seems to be "we've got 3 hives, all our alien classes should be godly, we should be able to just run in there and take out all the turrets, by ourselves if need be, a-la 1.04".
I play in a clan, maybe we're more organized than most pubbers. But at that end game, when we actually speak amongst our teammates, delegate roles and classes, we get the job done, and quite effectively. There's not one gorge running in and getting blasted by turrets, there's one gorge taking openings to launch a few bilebombs, but staying behind the onos who's soaking damage, who's being covered by the pair of fades from the other entrance to the marine start, who're being umbra'd by the lerks from both sides.
To repeat what was previously said by our oh-so-wise admin, gone are the days of solo-onosing in their base. As much as you'd like to say your 1.04 mentality isn't present, it is. When you break it, you can offer the rest of us some challenge, if not, you'll just be another pubber to smash. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But thats what the marines do, so why not? Figures you like turrets, you never play pub. Go on a pub make sure your on bast. And tell me to bilebomb 40 turrets in atmos.
Comments
I've already explained the counter to turret farms and you guys are ignoring my arguments so I'm not going to bother. Suffice it to say that there is a counter and most aliens do not currently know how to take advantage of it, so turrets seem overpowered to you guys.
Here's the summary: Everyone in 2.0 is still a newbie. Newbies are not capable of properly judging balance, so please stop trying. I'm not insulting anyone but these threads are just irritating because you guys really don't have enough knowledge on the matter to make a good argument. Many of the things said here are simply blatantly false or gross exaggerations. PLEASE take a break from the critic duty and play the game for a couple weeks and then come back to tell us about balance, alright?
History repeats itself; this EXACT same thing happened with 1.0. Most of the complaints back then were unfounded. It was actually many months before the real balance issues with 1.0X came to light, and it will be the same with 2.0. Please stop pretending that you know all there is to know about 2.0's balance because you do not.
Okay, only happened once this far, on Voogru's, I was cloaked and then attacked them from behind <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, you dont go toe-to-toe wit the marines, you uses stealth and screw them confuzzled <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've already explained the counter to turret farms and you guys are ignoring my arguments so I'm not going to bother. Suffice it to say that there is a counter and most aliens do not currently know how to take advantage of it, so turrets seem overpowered to you guys.
Here's the summary: Everyone in 2.0 is still a newbie. Newbies are not capable of properly judging balance, so please stop trying. I'm not insulting anyone but these threads are just irritating because you guys really don't have enough knowledge on the matter to make a good argument. Many of the things said here are simply blatantly false or gross exaggerations. PLEASE take a break from the critic duty and play the game for a couple weeks and then come back to tell us about balance, alright? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your counter to turret farms was healing spray/BB which is soo annoying to aim with, IF you actually manage to find a spot where you can hit and not be targetted by turrets (next to impossible) Any decent marine squad will just rush you.
We didnt ignore your argument, we pierced them
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I dont think we're complaining, and if we do that's because we care (good thing! )
The thread's name was early thoughts and we're discussing whether turret farms are overpowered or not, no need to get overly-defensive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your idea that an onos will get redempted so soon only works under perfect conditions. Unless it's a wide open area, the ono stomps ( fine, it cant on first hive, but by the time you're onos the second hive is usualy up), eats a marine, gores the others, and redempts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just playing support = boring
Everyone wants some kills now and then to boost your ego or something. Just spamming umbra all the time is like sitting on the bench in a football/soccer game watching the others having a great time playing.
Yes stomp works great in narrow hallways or if the marines are all lined up.(And in narrow hallways onos have hard times moving around making it a risky gamble) But if they´re spread just a bit there is enough hmg/shottie/nade fire from the not stunned players to redeem/kill the onos that tries to eat the stunned ones. And stomp doesn´t last very long. C´mon something must be good about an alien that costs 100 res and drops like a stone on Jupiter.
Now imagine that every single server is full of these players, and the community that knows better(Vets and PTs) is much much smaller. That's where we are right now. Get it?
Why did you delete your post?
Anyway, Sieging isnt that hard, not considering how hard it is to take down a turret farm.
I think people have tried it all, Bilebomb, Xenocide, Onos and all that..
Also, I dont think you could compare Alien defence with Marine defence, Marines are ranged, Aliens are mostly not. Marines had GL so take down WOLs, they also had Siege, none which you really entered the fray and put yourself at risk (organized marines that is) Aliens have to go toe-to-toe with the turrets while 10+marines are shooting at you, it's just too much, I dont have a problem with turret outpost, just turret farm base. Your strategy requires a perfect case scenario, and IS very hard to do, if you can shoot the turret with the low range BB, marines will most likely be able to shoot in return, and weld the stuff with the cheap welder.
Just because we have only played it in 2 days doesnt mean we cant raise a discussion about it, as I see it, they need a value tweak
Right, but I will point out that in other games like SC, some overpowered strats were found VERY fast. 6 pool rushing was done a week into SC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've already explained the counter to turret farms and you guys are ignoring my arguments so I'm not going to bother. Suffice it to say that there is a counter and most aliens do not currently know how to take advantage of it, so turrets seem overpowered to you guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with them for the most part, but it is a lot harder to counter a turret farm than you make out. Just like it is a lot harder to counter instant shotgun rushes or onos devour.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's the summary: Everyone in 2.0 is still a newbie. Newbies are not capable of properly judging balance, so please stop trying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, these forums just remind me of my starcraft days more and more. The first time the mutalisk rush got bought up people said that too. Look where that went...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not insulting anyone but these threads are just irritating because you guys really don't have enough knowledge on the matter to make a good argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then make a better one the other way :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->History repeats itself; <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Protoss counters against Mutalisk and 6 pool rushes were often discussed but nothing practical ever came up. Both were discovered quite quickly in the life of SC.
This is a GOOD thing. The faster issues are presented, the faster you get viable counters. The worst people are certain PT's and such who say, "It's perfectly balanced you just need to figure it out" without actually posting ANYTHING constructive as to the supposed counter. Such statements are worthless and they shouldn't bother making them.
Sorry, but that's it. There is no Onos killing all turrets anymore; like with the marines, the aliens will have to join their forces in the endgame. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree: this is the way that it should be. The problem is that in the midgame, bad teamwork = you lose. In the endgame, where aliens are winning, bad teamwork = the game lasts an extra two hours of nil strategy, just endless deathmatching around marine base. The former feels right, and it's still fun if you lose. The latter gets old real real fast, and isn't all that fun for either team.
In other words: I agree there should be punishment for bad teamwork. I disagree that the punishment should EVER involve boredom, especially when you want to bring in new players.
Yes, it is very hard, I doubt anyone will disagree. However, this is more from pub mentality than anything else, me thinks. I've now played through both 30 minute long turret farm fests, and 5 minute long ones. The main difference is quality of aliens. Sometimes, you'll have people rushing in on their own, not coordinating, not covering gorges, not umbra-ing, not sporing, etc... And that makes it much harder. However, with organization, they can be taken down, especially since any evolution is open with the huge number of res nodes you better have. Get a lerk, some gorgies, some oni, and made a skulk, and voila. Skulk can leap+xeno marines softened by spores, oni go in, smack around a bunch of turrets under umbra protection, and gorges can bilebomb while the turrets and marines are distracted (note the coordination aspect). It tends to be fairly productive, it's just hard on pubs (especially right now).
However, I imagine everything will become a lot more organized with time. If the vets can't stop aliens smashing their turret farms, I doubt we will do better in the long run.
Now imagine that every single server is full of these players, and the community that knows better(Vets and PTs) is much much smaller. That's where we are right now. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason marines won on pub servers in 1.04 was because of all the exploits. Before the players discovered the nearly invincible JP/HMG rush, crouch bug, processing double siege the res imbalance on large servers towards marines... the aliens totally owned the marines so dont tell that time will balance something that isn´t. Pub and clan play aren´t the same and will never be. 1.04 without Jp exploit and 6 vs 6 on a pub = alien qwnage. And you assume 1.04 was balanced in your post but it wasnt. Either it was marine ownage due to the mentioned exploits or alien ownage before they were discovered. All the Marine wins in 1.04 pub play didn´t happened because of good strategies but because of exploits that were never meant to be in the game. So if newbies in 1.04 came to our forum to complain about alien dominance after 2 days they were perfectly right. As long as we played the game as the devs intended aliens were overpowered.
Well said.
Did Starcraft have many weeks of testing by the most veteran and experienced people its community before its release? No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The worst people are certain PT's and such who say, "It's perfectly balanced you just need to figure it out" without actually posting ANYTHING constructive as to the supposed counter. Such statements are worthless and they shouldn't bother making them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? With their hours upon hours of experience, they apparently KNOW that turret farms are balanced enough. It's up to you to figure out why this is so, whether by watching demos or experimenting yourself.
I'll admit that bast is a pretty hard marine start to siege. But with most others, just put up d chambers and movement chambers nearby--with adrenaline and movements, a gorge can spam unlimited bilebombs, and a fade can shoot unlimited acid rockets. Just think of it this way: if you can kill one turret, or kill/devour one marine (with a shottie, welder, hmg or grenade launcher) for every alien that dies (1-3 res), you are causing the marines a net loss in resources. And with some teamwork, it's not at all hard to do this.
Say with a six-man assault team, you have a two onoses rush in and stomp/devour, have a skulk xeno some immobilized marines in a corner, have the gorge/fade shoot endlessly, with the lerk primal screaming to give everyone a boost and umbraing guys under fire. Let's say the unlikely thing happens, and ALL the aliens die. If that should happen, the marines will get 6-18 res. All the aliens have to do is kill 2 turrets, the resource tower, or an observatory. It's even better if the marines lose the arms lab or an infantry portal.
Actually yes it did, and in fact it had a player pool of about <b>600</b> or so and was later expanded. I believe that is bigger than NS. Same with WC3 and in both cases many rushes/abuse strats got through the wire. The same thing occured with Brood War and that had <b>the</b> top starcraft players in it.
So you lose that one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? With their hours upon hours of experience, they apparently KNOW that turret farms are balanced enough. It's up to you to figure out why this is so, whether by watching demos or experimenting yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this gives them a god given right to make useless unconstructive comments that just aggravate people further? I would love them to share their experience and help people get to the point of countering this stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just think of it this way: if you can kill one turret, or kill/devour one marine (with a shottie, welder, hmg or grenade launcher) for every alien that dies (1-3 res), you are causing the marines a net loss in resources. And with some teamwork, it's not at all hard to do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, I don't even think that turret farms are much of a problem. Aliens aren't used to having to work together, in 1.04 you could take down a TF by yourself as a fade or onos. Now you can't because turrets aren't actually completely useless anymore.
:/
That's the thing you see, hit it directly on the head and nobody has considered this.
In SC a mutalisk rush was tested early on and failed, but in a later version worked perfectly. The reason for this was changes to the damage types of certain structures which MADE this rush possible. When the versions change often things that previously weren't a worry suddenly become them. This happens with all beta testing really.
With the latest version of NS, its obviously been geared torwards organized play with greater emphasis on teamwork.
Blizzard games are geared torward the general mass of whiney screamy pissy moany 12 year olds who've never played an rts other than a Blizzard product.
Odds are with a Blizzard game, enough nubs cry about a tactic in the forums, rather than overcome it, it'll get slapped with the nerf stick. That's just the kind of company Blizzard is, they don't care about higher levels of play, they're interested in the bottom line, and that gets pushed up when Billy from Backwater tells his middle school friends "omg i am teh king of w4rcr4ft, i b34t teh level 12 l4st night!" and the rest of them start playing.
The Vets and PT's aren't making useless, unconstructive comments. They're telling you to suyf because you don't know what you're talking about, which I feel will be the case for at least another week or two. It might not be what you want to hear, but looking at both sides of the story, I think one group has more weight backing their words than the other. Others can try to discredit them on whatever moral basis, backwards logic, or whatever relationships they wish to draw on from other games, but this is NS, and they're the ones who've tested for months on end.
Gee, let's see:
<b>Silverfox:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorge is the building killer. The Bile Bomb makes short work out of any marine out post and two Gorges that back each other up are increadibly effective. Shoot, if you got a Lerk and a Fade or Oni backing them up, they're pretty much unstopable. And thats only 3-4 players on a team taking out a single outpost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Note that we weren't discussing last-stance scenarios, but general turret farming back then.)
<b>Me:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most alien teams seem to fall apart in the end game. You just have to have the Onos and the Gorge and the Lerk and the Fade there. This is a teamplay game. Don't expect that to change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Picking up on a more detailed post by Seikeden - I was of course referring to a combination of Charge, Bilebombs, Umbra, and Swipe/Blink here.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If your fellow aliens were foolish enough to run into the farm one at a time, they afforded the marines an easy source of income thanks to the new resource for kills system.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basically it - attack amassed, use support abilities, make the powerhouses distract enemy fire, and let the Gorges lob as many Bombs as possible.
Aegeri, you make a number of very good points, but the matter of fact is that we found counters to turret farming and that they were presented early in this discussion, although many ignored them as the focus of this thread shifted later on.
I agree that we <i>will</i> see unbalanced strategies sooner or later - only that until now, I've not <i>yet</i> seen them.
Also, I'll happily agree that the endgame can be drawn out too far - this needs definetely remedy, and I'm not going to start arguing about it. What many in here claimed was however that late game turretfarming was practically an uncounterable strategy, which is just not the case.
[edit]xioutlawix:
Nobody tells anyone in here to "SUYF". Please watch yourself.[/edit]
Which is why it took a few months for the first major balancing patches, which didn't nerf anything (the mutalisk was unchanged in fact).
Oh what's that, you were utterly wrong? Good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Vets and PT's aren't making useless, unconstructive comments. They're telling you to suyf because you don't know what you're talking about,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is, a completely useless unconstructive comment. Good job for proving what I've been saying.
nemesis
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aegeri, you make a number of very good points, but the matter of fact is that we found counters to turret farming and that they were presented early in this discussion, although many ignored them as the focus of this thread shifted later on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>I don't think turret farms are imbalanced.</b>
Actually, that's the impression I'm starting to get or I wouldn't be manually chaning maps on my server after a 2, hour stalemate. I just can't believe that NS 2 has so much polish and refinement but the gameplay changes so far, suck IMO. And I think Seikeden is totally correct. Show me one RTS where one team has a tiny fraction of the res of another that survives for more than a few minutes. Its sad but I've manually changed maps more than I've finished on my server because it becomes BORING AND POINTLESS to wage an infinite war against the late game, turret farmed, marine start. And while you special guys who have been playtesting may have found strats that worked for you in beta they are no working in pubs(.) Sure, the game has already been out two days but no miraculous strategy or team work will solve this. This must be corrected in game IMO. <!--QuoteEnd]
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
Actually I think being a newb give me an insight that the devs and playtesters do not have, a different perspective. So instead of being so apologetic why not hope they officially comment on their thoughts/counters during the testing phase. Say what you will about this 'n00b' but I still think there is something wrong with certain aspects of the game. I still give props to the devs and the overall level of polish they have brought to NS. Keep up the good work. I just don't want them to think their work is over yet <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I just can't believe that the end game stalemate was not once discovered/remedied during playtesting. That is all. Overall the enhancements are great and I have a lot of respect for Flayra and crew. It is nothing personal to the devs.
I'm fairly sure we'll see an end to the majority of these long end-game stalemates in a week or two.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nobody tells anyone in here to "SUYF". Please watch yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not directly, but the general intention of the statement seems to be what's getting across to most, and I can honestly see how some of the resistance encountered from the community would warrant such an outburst eventually. People are rampantly posting on the forums about how unfair/abusive a tactic is with seemingly little or no time actually having played vs. said tactic. Get out of the forums and back into the game and try harder to counter!
<span style='color:white'>Maybe I should draw it out: Nobody tells anyone to "SUYF". Period. I'll take care of that.
These boards prohibit hostitlty, for <i>all</i> members, including PTs, vets, and devs.</span>
Not directly, but the general intention of the statement seems to be what's getting across to most, and I can honestly see how some of the resistance encountered from the community would warrant such an outburst eventually. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already interpreted those posts directly as such :/ I'd rather just here "this is what we did" and TRY it for myself. Much more useful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People are rampantly posting on the forums about how unfair/abusive a tactic is with seemingly little or no time actually having played vs. said tactic. Get out of the forums and back into the game and try harder to counter!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos redeeming is being fixed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm not playing because I don't have the money <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Expensive going to a netcafe and I haven't downloaded it by my modem yet so I can play at my flat (doing that tonight). So I just have to think about it in the mean time.
Oh you edited, <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I play in a clan, maybe we're more organized than most pubbers. But at that end game, when we actually speak amongst our teammates, delegate roles and classes, we get the job done, and quite effectively.
There's not one gorge running in and getting blasted by turrets, there's one gorge taking openings to launch a few bilebombs, but staying behind the onos who's soaking damage, who's being covered by the pair of fades from the other entrance to the marine start, who're being umbra'd by the lerks from both sides.
To repeat what was previously said by our oh-so-wise admin, gone are the days of solo-onosing in their base. As much as you'd like to say your 1.04 mentality isn't present, it is. When you break it, you can offer the rest of us some challenge, if not, you'll just be another pubber to smash. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But thats what the marines do, so why not? Figures you like turrets, you never play pub. Go on a pub make sure your on bast. And tell me to bilebomb 40 turrets in atmos.