Instant Shotgun Rushes?
Aegeri
Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members
Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Pretty brutal, anyone else tried it?</div> So far I've been attempting to do a few things like instantly rushing with a shotgun. Essentially, once the armory and IP is built, I straight away drop shotguns (to everyone I can). These shotgunners then go one place: The alien hive.
I've tried this about 3 times and been successful every time doing it. The shotgun will wipe the floor with all the level 1 aliens, and often the aliens won't even have time to finish going to gorge OR lerk! It works well against sensory too (as noted by another poster) as when they are revealed the shotgun easily pastes them in one hit.
Aside from the fact it's a lame tactic (It is like 6 pool rushing in SC, if you know/remember what that is) I'm not convinced there is a counter. Lerks would be an obvious answer, but I haven't seen lerks before the marines get there, or one is just made. If this is the case it is a race against marine health to kill the hive. This is a race that shotguns win VERY easily as they are mobile, spores are not (SG's butcher a hive in around 18 seconds in my experience). If we add to all of this medspam by myself (or the comm) then this just makes this a brutal rush.
Average game time is just under 5 minutes, and that is only for the remaining aliens to get whacked :/
An SG rush does counter a gorge rush amazingly well though I will say.
Thoughts?
And as a further worry, this is as people still don't know the maps really well. I can see this tactic being done MUCH faster once people are more familiar with the maps. If anything, it will get worse before better.
I've tried this about 3 times and been successful every time doing it. The shotgun will wipe the floor with all the level 1 aliens, and often the aliens won't even have time to finish going to gorge OR lerk! It works well against sensory too (as noted by another poster) as when they are revealed the shotgun easily pastes them in one hit.
Aside from the fact it's a lame tactic (It is like 6 pool rushing in SC, if you know/remember what that is) I'm not convinced there is a counter. Lerks would be an obvious answer, but I haven't seen lerks before the marines get there, or one is just made. If this is the case it is a race against marine health to kill the hive. This is a race that shotguns win VERY easily as they are mobile, spores are not (SG's butcher a hive in around 18 seconds in my experience). If we add to all of this medspam by myself (or the comm) then this just makes this a brutal rush.
Average game time is just under 5 minutes, and that is only for the remaining aliens to get whacked :/
An SG rush does counter a gorge rush amazingly well though I will say.
Thoughts?
And as a further worry, this is as people still don't know the maps really well. I can see this tactic being done MUCH faster once people are more familiar with the maps. If anything, it will get worse before better.
Comments
Old school WoL MAY be a counter however I feel that a early defenisve WoL would cripple the aleins to the point where even if they did fend my shotties off I would be back vary shortly with HMGs. I allso think that I will start mixing in a few LMGs to deal with isolated OTs.
A tactic i have used and have found to be just about unstoppable is to combo shotties with a fast tech ruch to HA. HA/Shotty seems to be the quickest Uber combo in the game!
Marines shooting OCs, while they get healed from behind.
Marines try to kill gorges, and get their arses bitten by cloaked skulks, who run away behind a pillar and cloak again.
Marines die, aliens now have a temporarily defended hive and a bunch of skulks with extra res who can now go get res towers.
Then, if that happens, you've just shot yourself in the foot. A shotty rush is kind of like an hmg rush from 1.04, though more effective... However, it's still a major risk.
Skulks are useless, pasted in a single blow.
Sensory was tried and failed miserably by the aliens. Skulks get revealed=dead and other things go down like a sack of potatos once revealed (cloaked OC's etc). As the target is the hive, and everyone knows where that is even cloaked, it still goes down very fast.
I will say it won't work on a large server I imagine, but in small (5vs5 to 8vs8 at max) games it will work incredible wonders.
I'm going to get an alien team to try a WOL tonight or so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the Khaara scout your arse, you're in trouble. They can get up a sens and a few OCs before you get there, which results in the following:
Marines shooting OCs, while they get healed from behind.
Marines try to kill gorges, and get their arses bitten by cloaked skulks, who run away behind a pillar and cloak again.
Marines die, aliens now have a temporarily defended hive and a bunch of skulks with extra res who can now go get res towers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of that happens. The OC's die very fast to the shotguns and aliens die faster still.
Has everyone missed my first post where I stated that sensory did NOT work? Also, the aliens aren't getting much time to set up any defence at all. This occurs in MINUTES, right at the start of the game. Aliens rarely have time to get anything up in defence.
Parasite em all you want, so you know where there at, You will still die the moment you try to attack. 2 shotty blasts kills a gorge ALLOT faster then heal keeps em up.
As far as res, I have observed that a shotty in the hands of a decent player on a decent teams pays for itself severral times over in skulk fodder res.
Just like with 1.04 JP/HMG rushes , yeah there is a small risk (duh) but the pay off is more then worth it and is a likely outcome.
Well I'm accrediting you with the initial discovery, but I am not convinced either way.
Someone here suggested a wol and to me that sounds like a reasonable idea. A few OC's plus skulks should be able to stop this rush.
Did you try the DC first idea fluffy? [Other thread]
?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Remember, you'll not now where the sensory are and where the gorge and skulks are, you could just snook behind them and kill atleast 2 per skulk <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's only 1 shot per skulk though. It is a lot faster for shotguns to annihilate skulks (and they will kill some on the way) than vice versa.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the Khaara scout your arse, you're in trouble. They can get up a sens and a few OCs before you get there, which results in the following<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also there are other problems. If aliens do this they risk crippling their economy, while shotguns are wondeful at both neutralising any threat from a gorge rush and rapidly assaulting alien res towers. So a shotgun rush isn't a bad one to have to pull out of, because you can hemm the aliens into their base.
Also with what I read about building 2 obs to counter the sensory, thats just not feasible. It means you didn't give everyone you could a shottie and you left at least one marine behind in the rush to build these obs. It also means no res for med spam.
Also another very effective counter would be as the rest of the team tries to counter this rush have one or two skulks rush the marine base. If a marine that stayed back was defeated a skulk or two would easily take out the base. Possibly even force the comm out of his chair leading to a stall in medpacks for his team.
I am one who thinks NS 2.0 is very balanced. Too many people are coming into this forum saying they have an uncounterable tactic. If its truely uncounterable try it on other servers. It seems to me whatever server you are trying this on just does not have good alien players playing for it..
Save the balance issues until you've had awhile of playing this game. I know I read that in the forum rules, but why is no one listening to it?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Against a decent marine 1 shot=splat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also with what I read about building 2 obs to counter the sensory, thats just not feasible. It means you didn't give everyone you could a shottie and you left at least one marine behind in the rush to build these obs. It also means no res for med spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Typically I don't build them at all, slows down things too much and isn't entirely needed. However 1 obs outside of the alien hive and sensory is irrelevant (remember, this occurs in minutes). However it does mean you can't res spam.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Too many people are coming into this forum saying they have an uncounterable tactic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said I hadn't found one, and want to see one. So far only one person has given me a solid idea, though I think WoL's may do the trick.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems to me whatever server you are trying this on just does not have good alien players playing for it..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And all marine teams that shotgun rush are perfect? Honestly, this isn't even a constructive argument :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Save the balance issues until you've had awhile of playing this game. I know I read that in the forum rules, but why is no one listening to it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's called discussion.
Honestly, the people harping on and on about that are getting extremely irritating. If you have nothing constructive to add then don't say anything <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also there clearly are problems that will be addressed like the onos devour/redeem exploit.
From first-hand experience, I can tell you that a bunch of shotgun marines *utterly* wiped out a cloaked hive and its defenders without much of a second thought. They did it twice in a row, too.
However, many of the counter-tactics here simply don't work. That's because the shotgun rush can come before aliens have a chance to put up buildings, let alone a decent defense line.
Now, all this said there is one infaillable point that has been mentioned here. Using buildings to try and counter a shotgun rush *will* hurt the aliens where it tends to matter most, resources. Starting Aliens may get 25 res instead of 10 now, but I'd point out that in order to use it they have to spend 10 to Gorge to begin with. So they have 15, which means that they can effectively only manage 1 building each early on. The choice is between res towers or defenses. That isn't an easy choice. With a well-oiled team that can work effectively, with half the team gorging off the bat and dropping buildings and the other skulks conserving their resources for res towers. I haven't tested that tactic myself, but it would require a very well co-ordinated team. For Clan play that's not a problem, but on public servers that type of teamwork very rarely happens.
The big issue is still though that it only takes one shot to frag anything below a Fade. In 1.04 the difference between good marines and bad was the ability to keep your crosshairs on a moving target long enough to kill it. There was no one-hit kill in 1.04. Since the shotgun also has an increased RoF, the problem tends to complicate itself because ultimately, anyone can hit a target once. That means that 60-80% of the time a skulk will get killed trying to get close enough to bite.
As for other things that have been said about the shotgun rush, it's true that they kill buildings with ludicrous speed. It's been proven that sensories offer little to no protection, as marines know where res towers and hives are anyway. That makes them prime targets, which evidently the Aliens cannot easily defend. If a hive can go down in twenty seconds or less to a few guys with shotguns, then it's true that they can quite possible ignore the defense and just plug the hive.
In fact, the shotgun rush is so fast that aliens by and large can't kill a defenseless marine base off before the hive goes down. Sure, they could *all* go and try for it, but unlike Aliens the marines don't die once their command chair goes down. So in a rush v rush, the winner is plainly evident.
All the defense tactics rely on just that, defense. That's something skulks are not particularly well suited to, being best at getting around the map and making lightning strikes, and setting ambushes. A skulk that has to make a run at a marine with a shotgun will be dead 70% of the time before they manage to get a bite. And then, an aborted shotgun rush would keep the aliens hold up in their hive. The obvious and undoubtedly effective counter-tactic to running into a hastily erected Alien defensive wall is just to go park yourselves and build a turret farm with a phase gate around the corner. What are the aliens going to do? They're going to have to either charge the fort and try to wear it down through mass casualties, giving marines an influx of resources from the kills that would result, and also giving the marines free reign over the rest of the map. The other option is to go out around it and hit other targets, like the marine base. That one is more feasible, but it also leaves the Hive vulnerable to getting mobbed as all the marines have to do is recognize that the hive is under-defended and then hit it.
I've been in the latter scenario, with marine turret farms parked outside our hive and other hives. It tends to make for long, boring games. As a skulk, I find that if I manage to actually make it inside a turret base, I last between 5-10 seconds. That's the time it takes for a turret to kill me, or a marine to blast me. I've come to find that turrets take longer.
The only way to get around that is to just mob the bloody thing. That requires team coordination few of the pub servers have. Anyway, I still think shotguns are overpowered. If anything it's because of they're dirt cheap and inflict hideous amounts of damage.
Their effectiveness has been proven. In terms of cost, they do way more than they should be able to. Counter tactics do exist, but their mere existence does not make the effective in dealing with the problem. For example, one can make cloaked OCs. Thing is, that only works if the mariens all storm in and stay around long enough to all die. If you run into a hive that's got a load of defenses, then you just go stand in an easily defensible location that forces Skulks to try and make a run on you (such that you can easily blast them) and rendering the defenses rather useless until you put a seige turret up.
The counter to that is clever placement of defenses, and then the counter-counter to that counter...etc etc. etc. Basic point; if there's a counter to everything, there's a counter to the counter of everything. Looking into the counter to the counter to the counter just won't work because it depends solely on the team there. Still stuck with the same problem, that shotguns do rule the early game.
Yeah, I thought that too, I was so horribly wrong.
1) The aliens had no idea it was coming, and didn't have enough skulks there to defend, or
2) The skulks didn't understand how to utilize sensory against shotgunners, and thus were outskilled.
Let me go in-depth on #2 real quick. If you're a skulk and are facing a squad of shotgun rushers, you know the following things:
1) Each marine can kill you in one hit.
2) Each marine dies in two bites.
3) Unless you charge straight at them and the marines aren't stupid, the marines cannot see you until you choose to attack.
4) You, as a skulk, respawn five seconds after being killed.
5) Each marine, when killed, will require at least one minute to get back to the hive.
So, as a skulk, what do you do to fight them? I would walk (not run) on the ceiling and drop behind them, biting them in the rear. I guarantee I'll take out at least one of them before dying, which is all that matters. Regardless of whether the marines can kill in one hit, proper use of tactics by a sensory skulk means that at least one marine will die before the others can react. 3+ skulks all attacking from different angles should cause enough confusion and chaos to wipe out pretty much the entire squad, and even if it's a complete failure they respawn fast enough to try it again. If all the skulks just run up to the marines and decloak under the pointman's crosshairs, then they deserve to lose.
<b>HOWEVER</b>, we cannot forget that a scanner sweep completely negates the bonus of sensory for a brief period of time. And the real problem with shotty rushes right now is that, in smaller games, the marines have enough res to both equip most of the team with shotties AND build an observatory. Right off the bat, they have the res to easily kill the aliens' hive and the counter to the aliens' counter. When the marines approach the hive, just sweep and give them a waypoint to the sensory chamber. The SC goes down 3 seconds later, gg.
Personally, I would remedy this by requiring an arms lab to be present for shotguns to be available. This would make shotty rushes more risky, either requiring the element of surprise or delaying long enough to grab more RTs (and thus give the aliens more options on how to counter).
I haven't found that at all and most others have found that too. Sensory just doesn't do enough to stop marines from pasting aliens once revealed (1 shot = one death) and the hive being invisible is irrelevant. The thing with sensory is that it doesn't prevent the marines from massacring the hive in seconds with shotguns. No hives=alien loss.
The cloaking from sensory just isn't as big an advantage as the insta death+medspam of the shotgun rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, as a skulk, what do you do to fight them? I would walk (not run) on the ceiling and drop behind them, biting them in the rear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most pubbers won't do that. Also the marines are spread out and can cover eachother (another problem). Also while you are fluffing around doing that some are already hitting the hive. Once the hive is down you are dead.
All the time you are walking and maneuvering they can be smashing into the hive which=you lose. That is the power of this rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guarantee I'll take out at least one of them before dying, which is all that matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but you've given them 4-5 seconds extra to wail on the hive. You get one of them, but the remaining 4 have annihilated the hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless of whether the marines can kill in one hit, proper use of tactics by a sensory skulk means that at least one marine will die before the others can react. 3+ skulks all attacking from different angles should cause enough confusion and chaos to wipe out pretty much the entire squad, and even if it's a complete failure they respawn fast enough to try it again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, because some of them will die before killing a marine (it is ONE hit) and medspamming makes a huge difference. Really, even with slightly incompetent marines my med spamming keep them alive long enough to destroy the hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If all the skulks just run up to the marines and decloak under the pointman's crosshairs, then they deserve to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is they are revealed where another marine sees them. 1 hit later and it's over.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HOWEVER, we cannot forget that a scanner sweep completely negates the bonus of sensory for a brief period of time. And the real problem with shotty rushes right now is that, in smaller games, the marines have enough res to both equip most of the team with shotties AND build an observatory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo, but I find that I don't build an observatory at all. Instead I prefer to med spam my marines which does work wonders.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right off the bat, they have the res to easily kill the aliens' hive and the counter to the aliens' counter. When the marines approach the hive, just sweep and give them a waypoint to the sensory chamber. The SC goes down 3 seconds later, gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough but I would view that as being slightly riskier, without medspam my marines have a higher chance of dying.
The other problem is it forces aliens to go sensory first and, I'd like to mention this, there is NO disadvantage to going hardcore shotguns. They allow you to massacre aliens in the open easily and butcher res towers and the like fast too. The assaulting capability they grant makes it an extremely FLEXIBLE strategy which is a big problem.
Tyrain
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uhh... I know its not the best solution but.... nerf shotty to piercing damage. Means half vs. structures? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is better to know if there is a problem before doing that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I would remedy this by requiring an arms lab to be present for shotguns to be available. This would make shotty rushes more risky, either requiring the element of surprise or delaying long enough to grab more RTs (and thus give the aliens more options on how to counter). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
another good one.
Hate to say this, but we also had Sensory fall flat on its arse when a shotgun rush came our way.
So I guess it depends on the relative skills of those involved. In my case, sensory afforded absolutely no protection.
Hate to say this, but we also had Sensory fall flat on its arse when a shotgun rush came our way.
So I guess it depends on the relative skills of those involved. In my case, sensory afforded absolutely no protection. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I'm thinking. Could sensory be the public games version of a JP rush? It might be perfectly balanced in a game with vets/playtesters who are able to use sensory very intelligently, but on a pub?
It is a lot easier to use the hugely whacked shotgun rush than it is to use the sensory chamber (which takes a bit of thought).
The instant shotgun rush is also easy to pull off for any commander, especially if I can.
Shotguns need to have their ROF lowered, they need to be effected by umbra, and have their overall damage lowered. They are just to powerful.
I'll say it again, if they make it to the hive with four guys, each having at least four shots, its over. Skulks wont kill them quickly enough.
Seriously, it depends on a lot of influences, starting with the aliens mindset and ending with the distance between marine spawn and hive, but in PT games, a group of rather unorganized playtesters (i.e.: better publevel) was able to counter a shottie rush by fast ambushs. Yes, if you charge head first at them, you <i>will</i> die, no discussion there. But just about any other kind of approach, be it based on sensory, celerity, stillness, carapace, or simply clever movement, serves you a good chance, and especially in smaller serves (say 5vs5, which means a 4 to 3 man group) can one dead marine mean the end of a rush and an entailing severe disadvantage for the marines.
Also, hives have multiple thousand HPs. Even a shotgun can't kill them in an instant.
Yeah but we aren't finding that on public servers where most players aren't very clever on the movement.
Also it doesn't help the problem that 1 hit is death, you need time to kill marines like that, but shotguns just need to see you once and it's over.
Hives go down fast because of the shotguns huge ROF so it can do in the thousands of damage in about 5-6 seconds. That is why it's such a good hive killer, better than the HMG is anyway I think.
PS: Anyone got a link to numbers? [Save me some time in the inevitable search]
Each shotgun shell can do 160 dmg , and given the insane rof the shotgun has, that is like 2-4 shells a second.
If the shotgun is being fire at a hive from short range, chances are the full lot of pellets are going to hit...
if you have for shotgunners, the hive will go down in less than 5 seconds...
if everyone of those 4 shotgunners unloads their entire ammo "clip" (10 shells) into the hive, they will do theoretically 6400 damage. Hives have 6000 hp.
I'm not saying this isn't balanced, but this is only with 4 shotgunners, if the entire team goes shotty.... ouch.
However, this is assuming the hive is undefended, so if there are a few oc's there, then the marines are going to stall. This gives the time needed to react...
This isnt the problem though, in a coridor situation, the shotgun becomes like spores - there is so much pellet spam from the combined shotguners that you cant even get into medium range, let alone close, meaning the marines have effectively an advancing wall of death. There is effectivly too much spread.
My suggested solution therfore, is to reduce the number of pellets in each shotgun shell, and then ajust the damage per pellet to compensate - this means thie shotgun still retains its power in short range - as it should, but lerks now have a chance instead of being forcefully fed a cloud of pellets from half a mile away from 5 shotgun lunatics. Of course the lerk would still get it's dose of vitamin lead if it got close though - which is ok. This would also make the shotgun have a more defined role, as atm it serves as athe new gl, hmg and lmg... :/
Another solution could be to "fix" umbra. Apparantly it is broken or somethign, and not working as it should be *shrug* If anyone can tell me if this is true or not I would be glad. Information on how many pellets the shotugn has currently per shell would also be nice. Thank you in advance if you can tell me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I could be completely wrong, as it is still early into the game. If a counter is found I will post accordingly. I am just writing what I currently feel at the moment, incase shotguns do turn out to be unbalanced.
*beast posting something none-spammy for once ^-^*
Umbra hive was removed about a week before the release I read somewhere and I think the shotgun has 17 pellets. Looking for it now.
You're right on that last part, mostly since the HMG deals as much structure damage as the LMG...
The 5-6 seconds are however shall we say 'slightly exaggerated', aren't they? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> It of course depends on the number of players, but there is still enough time to die and respawn once in an average game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah but we aren't finding that on public servers where most players aren't very clever on the movement.
Also it doesn't help the problem that 1 hit is death, you need time to kill marines like that, but shotguns just need to see you once and it's over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The flaw in your argumentation is that you pretty much negate any kind of learning process on the alien side, while you assume that a pubplaying marine team is capable of proper squadmovement, covering each other, perfect aim, and a multitude of other nicieties. This is of course the worst case scenario. If you've got a quasi-clanlike team attacking a team of utter n00bs, it's not hard to guess the outcome.
They don't need it, the pellet spray pretty much seals the death of any skulk on a pub game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->, covering each other, perfect aim, and a multitude of other nicieties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't need perfect aim and covering eachother is automatic from being in a group.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is of course the worst case scenario. If you've got a quasi-clanlike team attacking a team of utter n00bs, it's not hard to guess the outcome. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are BOTH n00bs, that is the problem! Just one has a massively better weapon than the other!
The game has been out for TWO DAYS man, give people a little time to adjust. This isn't a "skill" issue we're talking about, it's about players making cognitive tactical decisions. The key to killing a shotgunner is to attack his back, NEVER his front. This is remarkably easy to do while in a sensory field. Incidentally, it's the same principle behind attacking an LMG marine, only you have less room for error here.
But look back a measly 24 hours. Back then, I was told by numerous people that the Aliens were grossly unbalanced because of the Onos devour/redeem combo (redemption is being changed, yes, but that has little to do with this special tactic), which I answered with the suggestion of a combination of shotguns and JPs. I was told, in a factual manner, that shotguns aren't worth a cup of natural fertilizer.
<i>Now</i>, I'm getting told that they rule surpreme. The Onos issue recieves little to no attention anymore (because, to quote beast "Shotguns can kill them in <i>three</i> shots!"), and I'm telling you to rely on skulk ambushtactics, which you tell me can't ever work properly on a pubserver.
See you tomorrow.
The game has been out for TWO DAYS man, give people a little time to adjust. This isn't a "skill" issue we're talking about, it's about players making cognitive tactical decisions. The key to killing a shotgunner is to attack his back, NEVER his front. This is remarkably easy to do while in a sensory field. Incidentally, it's the same principle behind attacking an LMG marine, only you have less room for error here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already countered this several times now. The fact is there are MORE than 1 shotgunner and the others spot and kill the alien in question. Likewise the spread of the shotgun pellets often hits or damages skulks. This also WILL NOT WORK against a commander who has built an observatory as well.
Likewise, if aliens aren't ready for a shotgun rush (IE have sensory) then they are automatically screwed. This could force a sensory first game like in 1.04 how we had a forced DC first game.
Secondly, the shotgun rush can be aborted if need be. If this occurs then the aliens have screwed themselves as they prepare defence against the mobile shotgun devastation squad. These can then run around happily annihilating skulks or res towers (that shotgun is VERY good).
It is too flexible for a single strategy. Gorge rushing at least is a risk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Onos issue recieves little to no attention anymore (because, to quote beast "Shotguns can kill them in three shots!"), <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could also have to do with the fact that it is being fixed by flayra <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Nobody feels like beating that dead horse anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and I'm telling you to rely on skulk ambushtactics, which you tell me can't ever work properly on a pubserver.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but that doesn't work against a lot of marines with a 1 hit kill weapon. Tried and tested. There wouldn't be a problem if it was that simple.
Also you forget this is INSTANT, happens in the first minutes of the game. There isn't a hell of a lot of time to firstly see it, and then try and prepare for it on some maps (others you have a better chance).