More Talk On Balance In 2.0
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">So what is the marine weakness?</div> OK, as some people have noticed, 2.0 does favour aliens slightly. The server ops I've talked to tell me that the aliens are winning about 66% of the time. With this in mind, I see people making <b>loads</b> of suggestions to nerf aliens. However, I rarely see people make suggestions to <b>improve</b> marines.
I'd like to try two things in this thread. First, I'd like it if people could share their reasons on why they feel aliens win too much. Be as specific as possible <b>without</b> saying that something is too strong. (let's ignore the Onos devour issue for the time being since that is easily fixed) I'd like to focus on what is too WEAK here.
Next, I'd also like to hear suggestions on improving balance, again <b>without</b> suggesting to change something that is too strong. Instead, try and suggest improving something that is too weak to counter it.
Balance can be achieved in many ways, and I'd like to look at balance from the opposite side. Instead of saying something is too strong and weakening it, let's look at what is too weak and strengthen it.
Regards,
Savant
I'd like to try two things in this thread. First, I'd like it if people could share their reasons on why they feel aliens win too much. Be as specific as possible <b>without</b> saying that something is too strong. (let's ignore the Onos devour issue for the time being since that is easily fixed) I'd like to focus on what is too WEAK here.
Next, I'd also like to hear suggestions on improving balance, again <b>without</b> suggesting to change something that is too strong. Instead, try and suggest improving something that is too weak to counter it.
Balance can be achieved in many ways, and I'd like to look at balance from the opposite side. Instead of saying something is too strong and weakening it, let's look at what is too weak and strengthen it.
Regards,
Savant
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
yea maybe not.. but its better than loosing 90% of the time for marines in games on redphives regulars server..
not alot of ppl seem to be taking to 2.0 =/
Make it ignore armor....that'd be fun.
edit: after seeing above post....how about making flashlight an anti-cloak thing that must be researched but has limited range?
or perhaps the build time
bcoz it take like a year for marines to upgrade, while Aliens, all they need just 1 or maybe 3 the max gorge to build everything in like
5 minutes and destroy all the marines out.
anyway, a 2.01a patch up for servers, lower the Aliens somehow, go take a look <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
my server has it too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines should be all about firepower. Instead they are undergunned bunnies. Just give them more rounds, more firepower, another weapon and slow them the hell down so they fight like squads in CS instead of spazes.
Aliens can cap several nodes before the marines are organized enough to go on the offensive. Aliens have the ability to both attack and expand at once. If Marine teams are to be successful, they need to be all together, or the server needs to be large enough to allow squads of 5+. Marines also need a healthy does of skill to avoid getting killed while expanding.
The other part of the problem is Marine commanders. In 1.04, you needed to have all the marines together if you wanted to win (usually just by powering through a hive, but still, all marines were needed). It is possible that Commanders aren't used to sending 1 small squad out to kill off alien expansions, the rest of the team dedicated to expanding. I personally think any radical balance changes should wait until the game has been out long enough for commanders to find a niche. Remeber, 2 hive lockdowns took a few months to fleshout.
EDIT
Stellarwinds: The TSA is designed to be a small, intense quick moving army. Heavy weaponry doesn't really fit that theme. Also, consider that the LMG is THE best all-around personal armarment in the galaxy.
The problem with the marine team is expansion. If you don't expand soon your foothold on the map will be lost and there will be diddly squat you can do about it. Marines just have a VERY hard time putting up RTs/Minibases towards the end. Personally I don't see the marines as too weak. I just see them as not using their full potential, and that is a commander/team fault. Comms just aren't strategical and are keeping a 1.04 mindset.
Example: Just today I was commanding, I sent almost all of the team through SAA to powersub junction 3 (ns_eclipse). When we got there we secured the area and dropped an RT. Everyone decided to build the RT... that was the mistake. Almost instantly 1 skulk jumped out of the vent and just downright owned about 3 marines. 1 guy was left and then he was caught in the back by another skulk. This is the weakness of marines, stupidity and lack of common sense. Marines feel they have too much security. They don't guard while others build, check vents, look on cielings etc.
From my experiances I just can't say that the marine team is weak or that aliens are overpowered, in our pub everything seems even. All I can say is just give it time, because I don't really think we need to be tweaking NS right now. (I don't know about clan play but pub is very well balanced)
(p.s. I say the above comment disregarding the Devour Redemption problem. If that were to be fixed then NS would be pretty well balanced for pubs.)
(p.p.s. so I guess my reply is not what you wanted? Oh mighty Savant?)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep
maybe i should qoute what error404 said a long time ago
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe your just a really big noob, ever think of that balance issue?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that was my sig for the longest time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> i should probally bring it back for 2.0
or take advice from my old picture sig that lost its host but found a new one (thanks PJofsky!!!!)
In 1.04 when you loaded your HMG to full clip you ran a lot slower than you did with an HMG with no backup bullets.
Absolutely right. The main reason marines lose is people don't follow their commander. In games where people listen to the comm, and the comm does basic things like electrify nodes, build forward obs for sensory and give shotguns when onos show up, the marines generally win.
Also aliens typically lose when everyone is trying to save for onos and doesn't build their mandatory res tower <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
However I personally don't have much scrim/match experiance, I think the reason marines are losing in scrims (I have played a few) is because even then the commander doesn't have a solid plan. Marines just aren't pressuring enough anymore, I don't know what exactly marines need to be "given" to make them stronger but I think it's just marine mentality. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
keep playing maybe you'll figure it out
I was just playing some good old fashioned NS- with him. He commanded. We dominated the aliens. The aliens wern't "noobs." They were very well skilled players. It just goes to show you that teamwork, communication goes a long way. That's all 2.0 is kids, say it with me now!
* Teamwork
* Communication
[In background] Can go a long way!
That's right, get a good team and you win, no matter how you slice the pie. Have a nice night.
Speed - 3/5's the current speed. All that armor must weigh something right?
Lmg- replace with something more along the line of a M16, possibly even 1 or 2 mini grens.
Pistol- add an alternate choice of a sawed off shotgun for only very close range but extreme damage. This way marines have a last resort when that fade is right in their face.
Minigun- add a minigun straight out of TF from the heavyweapons guy. Spits even more rounds than the current heavy machine gun but the marine can't move while firing, it has a long spin up and down time and he walks at a even slower crawl with it.
Now marines are slow moving death machines at long range with even the last resort double shot sawed off if they need it.
Hopefully the inclination to work together and waste aliens at a range and not allow them to get in close would be a lot higher.
I was thinking along the lines of the powerlifter with weapons like in AVP2 as the HA isn't as good as it used to be and a group of onos with devour can take out a team in one go.
So like maybe 1 powerlifter per game or something.
keep playing maybe you'll figure it out<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about? I just agreed with you and said I don't have much scrim experiance but when its balanced there it will be balanced here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if the game is balanced on the highest level of gameplay then it is balanced on the lowest. only reason one side wins when it's balanced at this level is because of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GG I agreed with you, way to be a jerk.
Speed - 3/5's the current speed. All that armor must weigh something right?
Lmg- replace with something more along the line of a M16, possibly even 1 or 2 mini grens.
Pistol- add an alternate choice of a sawed off shotgun for only very close range but extreme damage. This way marines have a last resort when that fade is right in their face.
Minigun- add a minigun straight out of TF from the heavyweapons guy. Spits even more rounds than the current heavy machine gun but the marine can't move while firing, it has a long spin up and down time and he walks at a even slower crawl with it.
Now marines are slow moving death machines at long range with even the last resort double shot sawed off if they need it.
Hopefully the inclination to work together and waste aliens at a range and not allow them to get in close would be a lot higher. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stellar I can see where you are comming from but thats such a big change to NS, it would probably totally mess up the gameplay, how would you be able to stop the marine team then? Plus this would encourage rambos and one man armys of mingunners...
i think not.. we had even regulars on the servers i play on and all those rounds went to the aliens.. nothing the marines did mattered!
stomp/devour has got to be the most hated weapon made.. its a cool idea but it doesnt fly =/
when a few regs decided to stop trying the commander just spamed shottys and we all went to the hive altho we had heavy casualites we took the hive from them... they got another hive we took that too.. fastest marine win ive seen, and one of the few wins ive seen too =(
the only other game ive played and won on marines that sticks out is a 2hour and 3 minute game on tanith where we lost main base to onos several times(reactor room) we held waste the whoel game and kept 5-4 nozzles..
id try to demo but that seems to be un successful, something about missing wave chunks.. =/ any1 got a clue?
i remember reading average game time was 20 minutes, but ive seen more stale mates in 2.0 than 1.04 unfortunatly for most.. i actually like the long games =D
Everyone would agree that aliens do feel like the non-squad non-work-together team right? They are designed that way and when you play as a skulk or any alien except maybe the lerk you don't feel the need to team up, as it is pretty much ment to feel.
Well if the aliens players who play that way are doing things the "right" way because they follow the planned alien grove then how can you be so quick to judge the marine players who don't team up enough? Just because "everyone knows" that marines are supposed to work together doesn't mean that comes across to the actual player.
It basically all comes down to speed in the end. Look at your standard DM game like Q3, people move pretty dang fast. Now take one of your opposite end strategy games like CS, they move pretty dang slow. Of course you've got other factors but that is a big one.
The marines might actually be even with the aliens right now but is it the right type of even. Marine speed 3, marine guns 7 would feel more natural than marine speed 5, marine guns 5, but they both add up the same total.
Make sure you set your cl_forwardspeed cl_sidespeed and cl_backspeed to at least 800. At 400 walking makes you slow down to a crawl for some reason. (I tested with a clanmate and I outran him by walking while he crouched)
As for strengthening the marines, I think the drop in cost/time of electricity in the beta is a good start. I would also love to see some other type of general marine upgrade (such as speed or possibly grenades) which might swap up the tech tree a little. Ultimately, I think I would win much more as commander if I didn't have to waste time FORCING my marines to follow orders ...
The comm shouldnt ever have to force the marines to act like a team. He isnt a babysitter, he is a facilitator.
But again I think this is all due to the general "feeling" the marine is designed with.
Lmg- replace with something more along the line of a M16, possibly even 1 or 2 mini grens.
Pistol- add an alternate choice of a sawed off shotgun for only very close range but extreme damage. This way marines have a last resort when that fade is right in their face.
Minigun- add a minigun straight out of TF from the heavyweapons guy. Spits even more rounds than the current heavy machine gun but the marine can't move while firing, it has a long spin up and down time and he walks at a even slower crawl with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well put. I'm not sure if I completely agree, but I like the ideas (step in the right direction) and would definitely support them. I have had a few ideas of my own...
- Flashbang. Ok not a flashbang with the purpose of blinding. But a flashbang that illuminates a room making all invisible structures become visible for 5-15 seconds, and any aliens have MT rings come up around them (regardless of whether they're moving or not) for 5-15 seconds. The amount of time would have to be balanced.
- SPECIALIZATION. A class system is not what I mean, I just mean additional weapons that can be dropped from the beginning (like the shotty is currently), cost very little, and/or require cheap, quick techs. I'm not sure what I mean, but here are my ideas:
- Long Range Combat. I'm thinking a rifle that essentially fires like the pistol but has a 15 shot clip and hefty reload time. Can't carry a pistol
- Support/Engineer. Carries welder, medpacks, ammopacks, said "flashbangs", mines, LMG w/ limited extra ammo and no pistol. Can build faster.
- Basic Soldier. Basic LMG/Pistol setup.
- Heavy Weapons. Some sort of minigun with extreme handicaps. I think long spin-up times and limite ammo is best. By giving the HWGuy very little ammo, he is then forced to reload frequently (long reload times) and stick with his team (for ammo and to be covered whiel reloading). No other weapon can be carried (except maybe knife).
- Scout. Jetpack, increased running speed, little armor, LMG with smaller clip, said flashbangs, mines.
These could perhaps be dropped as "bundles". A little backpack that the commander drops for a small amount of res, a player picks up, and gets the class's armor, weapons, ammo, objects, and is forced to drop all items that his class is not permitted to carry.
I think by limiting certain people to having no close/long range weapons, limited ammo, limited armor, limited speed, etc. the marines would be forced to stick together. IE The Long range guy needs a few Close Range and/or HWGuys to assist him. And to prevent being ambushed, to repair armor, distribute health/ammo, and to help build a forward base faster - they bring a Support/Engy guy or two along. Teamwork is now necessary.
No one can rambo except for the Default soldier, but he would lack the firepower for a team to all play that class and defeat a 2-hive alien team.
Perhaps just an entire class system would be easier. Just ideas, please don't flame me <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
In order to electrify, you have to have a turret factory. That's a big no in my book already, because often times I don't want a turret factory in the early game, but I do want electrified resource nodes. Turret factories encourage camping, which again, I don't want, I want to expand and get resources. Then it costs 30 resources to upgrade. THIRTY. That's more than the resource node itself, ****! Then there's the research time!
There's a reason electrified resources were implemented, and that is to give marines a distinct resource advantage in the early game. The aliens' advantage is that they can get resource nodes up quickly and cheaply, the disadvantage is that these resource nodes are weak and easy to kill (though I think they could have a bit of a smaller lifebar, they still take a good while to bring down). The marines' advantage is that they can set up resources that defend themselves against skulk attackers, the con is that the expansion is slow and the expense high.
Let's compare:
Aliens can build resources at 14 a pop. With two gorges, 4-5 resources can go up in the blink of an eye. Add another 1 or 2 gorges and you can set up defenses around them, to boot. Aliens can easily defend said resource nodes, for free, because of the super-quick roaming skulks and hivesight. Fades, oni, and multiple hvies follow.
Marines are slow. They can build a resource node, maybe two, but any more and they spread to thin and get their assets mauled by skulks. Did I mention the resource towers cost 6 more res than their alien counterparts? Then it takes a turret factory, another 20 resources down the drain which could have been used toward upgrades and tech. Then it takes 30 resources a pop for 2 to 3 resource nodes, another 60-90 resources that could have been used toward tech. A few minutes later, when the resource node FINALLY upgrades, aliens are barging down your door with fade's and oni, and all your hard work is basically useless. And you marines don't have very good tech, to boot. No wonder marines have such a hard time.
My suggestions are thus:
-Make electrification available without the turret factory; the removed unnecessary expense would be wonderful
-Make electrification cheaper. It's a nice upgrade, but it's not THAT nice. Oni and fades tear through them like no tomorrow, and even a pair of lowly lerks can spike one to death in the early game.
-Remove the research time for electrication, or shorten in a ton. When I get electrification, I get it because I want to be able to defend against roaming skulks in the early game. I know it'll be nigh useless when the bigger beasts show up, but I know the effect is helpful for expansion early on. If you make it so that it's basically impossible to get the electrified resources a significant amount of time before the biggun's show up, then you really negate the purpose of electrified resource nodes IMHO. They should exist to help a good commander get a jump on the aliens in the expansion race early on, and nothing more. Skulks should have to make an effort to keep the marines from setting up their expensive but powerful resource collectors, or face the consequences. They shouldn't be able to rely on the marine tech tree to hinder marine expansion enough for it to be a non-issue.