Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I think it's legitimate when a member of the CoFR community (I don't think anyone doubts their integrity or dedication to NS) brings up something like this. I have been in several of these games (and CoFR servers generally have an above average set of players, skillwise and teamwork wise, on both sides), and Stoneburg is right. Marines can do everything right and still lose. No doubt tweaks are underway, and hopefully balance can be restored. 2.0 does offer a great potential (and is still great to play despite the odds against marines).
um.. then ur team deserved to lose.. not everything can be brought to you in a silver plate.. your marines have to be a perfect-shot, ****, bunch of people, that not only just stick together, but work intelligently.
Marines just cant hang back and tech up and hope to kill aliens later with HA. YOU have to put them on the defensive. It´s your job to make sure they dont expand. Maybe you lost because you were a bad commander? Even if you thought you did everything right and lost, maybe its because the alien team was better? Maybe becuase you slacked off? Even if you had 10:1 KD ratio and still lose, then there´s something wrong with what you did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone asked what to do about it. Well, I think the res system is (once again) the root of the problem. Marines weren't overpowered because of JP/HMG in 1.04, they were overpowered because they could *get* JP/HMG so fast and easy. Some things that could be done without reworking the whole system: - Remove RFK or limit it to 1 res per kill and raise income from RT's (it is supposed to be a *tactical* game) - Lower turret speed a little - Lower celerity to 30 (from 35) - Either make Bilebomb OR Onos a 3 hive thing (I would prefer to just see web and bile change place) - Lower cost of electrify to 20 - Reduce the time it takes to upgrade the armory OR remove it as a prequisite for Protolab. - Lower the cost of Marine upgrades somewhat (like 5pts)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes... a few of things you listed are in the beta patch. Go chek it out.
<!--QuoteBegin--Never+Aug 10 2003, 01:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Never @ Aug 10 2003, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Trojan2+Aug 10 2003, 10:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trojan2 @ Aug 10 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map. I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that post = win <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i lost a couple of maps as marines, but won most of them. people are still using their strats they where using in 1.04. it won;t work (unless you have a very stupid alien team. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
expand! get as much res as possible. i like to take all the res on the way to a hive. mostly i wont secure them as it costs to many time with only a couple of rts. once the hive is secure i will go back to the previously capped resnodes to secure them. if i havent already got the 2 resnode location on the map i will go for that one next. (tf+siege, which is rather easy with 2 obs. one at base and one in the hive.)
double resnodes on a map should look like a small base. (tf, turrets, obs, armorie, pg)
Also all these people saying control res lardee-da-da.
I've lost games on tanith where I 'control' 7/10 res but 0 hives. Thats right I lose even when the aliens only have 3 rt's. So res is not the be-all-end-all. Perhaps I am thinking too much as a 2.0 comm?
Everyone says 'omg cap teh res!!11!!', if I do this the aliens take offence and remove the offending res tower, even if I electify it. Do aliens on other servers not do this?
Incidentally has anyone ever consistanly won on caged? Thats pretty 'crazy' in its balance aswell.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kid-A+Aug 10 2003, 06:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kid-A @ Aug 10 2003, 06:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also all these people saying control res lardee-da-da.
I've lost games on tanith where I 'control' 7/10 res but 0 hives. Thats right I lose even when the aliens only have 3 rt's. So res is not the be-all-end-all. Perhaps I am thinking too much as a 2.0 comm?
Everyone says 'omg cap teh res!!11!!', if I do this the aliens take offence and remove the offending res tower, even if I electify it. Do aliens on other servers not do this?
Incidentally has anyone ever consistanly won on caged? Thats pretty 'crazy' in its balance aswell. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> like i said i take all the res on the way to the 1st hive. so i always got one hive. and i rarely use electrify to protect my rts. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> one onos or a couple of skulks have it down in no time. i like to put a tf at every res i cap and then i might electrify. so when i lose the tf atleast it will give my team some more time to get there.
once i have the hive i normally have around 4 or 5 resnodes capped (including base and hive). so res starts flowing nicely and you can start securing them one after the other, get upgrades and start working on some other keypoints in the map.
Yes, I think the one solution is the arms lab. It takes too long to get the upgrades rolling from it, too much res has to be spent on too many different things and your teams now have to stick together. I'm an Aliens fan by far, I don't really even like Marines, but even as unorthodoxed (probably not the right word, but what I'm trying to say is that I never follow the "normal" comms stuff, yet I still won quite often in 1.4, and I have even tried totally new things with 2.0) I just can't win as comm. I can't get the upgrades going to actually keep my marines alive, they just fall time after time.
I to am a constellation member, and a server op, but I don't think the solution is any major balance tweaks, just perhaps make it a LITTLE bit easier to get a few early upgrades for marines so they can actually have a small fighting chance. Any more than this small chance will upset the balance greatly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Minstrel Knight+Aug 10 2003, 01:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Aug 10 2003, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Pjofsky+Aug 10 2003, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pjofsky @ Aug 10 2003, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are trying to play 1.04...
Seriously, though, the thing with 2.0 is you have to expand quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes but by quickly meaning you have to secure both hives within 3-4 minutes is a little extreme. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And two hive lockdowns ruin the game man. I refuse to do them as a comm, its just not fun for the aliens to get blasted by turrets that now never seem to miss. Its long, dragged out, and boring to do two hive lockdowns.
Soberana, yes, you are right, The alien team was of course much better. That's why they had a 1:10 KD ratio and we rarely saw more then 2 at the same place at the same time. In fact it was an average Alien team against an excellent Marine team.
Here's what Flayra says: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 competitive games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if you're going to claim that it is balanced, don't base it on the Devs, because those who made it obviously feel different. Notice how it says *competetive* games? That means games with good players. So far, the only servers that I have heard has frequent Marine wins have turned out to be abysmal when it came to Alien intelligence and teamwork.
I for one have to back Stoneburg on this one. I feel pretty much the same way in most respects. The few wins that I've seen marines have is when the marines were lucky enough to survive to HA/Grenades and the aliens messed up. I would love to play the revamped aliens competitively, but its not happening without changes.
totally agree with stoneburg i have almost the same ideas..
i just cant stand to see my skilled team get beaten to death by a single noob that just presses forward + attack witha redemption onos... 0 skill... 0 everything... he just eats, (or in 201a gores... just a lil slower), and then rdeems, destroying the marine little by little
the problem is, with aliens, you can put 2 ocs, and thats it, no single marine (no matter how well equiped he is) will destroy everything you got there... e will be dead before you can say you base is under attack
with aliens its a whole different story, an onos (or even fade or gorge) can destroy any of your outposts with ease in around a minute, so you have to be focused and protecting all your stuff 100% of the time, oh and when marines come out from the pase they got at least 1 or 2 swipes or gores before they know where they are standing
in short, single aliens ae overpowered, so, they need to be erfed so they work more as a team, i mean 2.0 retail is being owned by unorganized aliens, i just cant imagine 2 gorges healing 2 onos 2 fades and 2 lerks giving constant umbra to them...... its impossible to survive that, period.
Yeah, I've won as a marine, and even won as a comm, but I have to agree with Stoneburg, its almost impossible to do it against a halfway decently organized alien team.
I usually play as alien, but its getting to be too easy, almost like JP/HMG in 1.04.
I think one major difference that has maybe never been addressed is the fact that even if no one on either team builds a single thing, aliens can respawn. They dont have to spend 10-20 precious early seconds making sure they can spawn back in after a foolhearty base rush, which the aliens usually do.
It would be like if the aliens had to drop the first hive at the beginning of the round (albeit with a much faster growth time than a usual hive).
If the marines relocate, they have to build a comm chair (essentially a hive mind) AND build a respawning portal, whereas the aliens just have to drop a hive at a lower res cost. Sure the marines can relocate anywhere, but most try to relocate to one of the hives, making it essentially the same.
I love 2.0, dont get me wrong, but playing on the marines is getting frustrating, even with an excellent comm. Some of the beta fixes I'm not so sure about.
Marines are beginning to win because they are discovering the aliens are idiots.
Let me explain. Alien teams that do not defend res points, do not have 1vs5/6 STRAIGHT off the bat res node wise and haven't secured a 2nd hive about 3 minutes into the game don't know what they are doing. Once this occurs the alien tech occurs amazingly fast, I've seen in 13 minutes movement/defence aliens with fades and onos crush a marine team, turret farms or not. In one pub game with decent marine (good comm) got slaughtered by a team consisting merely of me and other aliens who KNEW what do to. Even with a clan stack a good comm we butchered them in under 20 minutes. When I look up and see a res count of 2 vs 6 in 3 minutes, I know I've got a good alien team.
If you are claiming marines are fine against aliens, and you see that res count being 3 vs 4 or whatever, <b>you are not playing good aliens, end of story</b>.
Alien teams that play to win dominate the res points AND defend them. It is harder for the marines to play offence, than it is for aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 10 2003, 05:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 10 2003, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This game is free, why complain? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A kick in the <i>gonads</i> is always free <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think the largest problem is that very few know how to be a marine in 2.0 Being an alien however is quite the same as it was in 1.0X, so no new learning must be undertaken. I truly think that after a minth o two of hard playing, the marines will find their niche.
I agree with you however - but we all must trust in Flayra to do the right thing. He WILL do the right thing-it's only a matter of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 10 2003, 07:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 10 2003, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Soberana, yes, you are right, The alien team was of course much better. That's why they had a 1:10 KD ratio and we rarely saw more then 2 at the same place at the same time. In fact it was an average Alien team against an excellent Marine team.
Here's what Flayra says: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 competitive games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if you're going to claim that it is balanced, don't base it on the Devs, because those who made it obviously feel different. Notice how it says *competetive* games? That means games with good players. So far, the only servers that I have heard has frequent Marine wins have turned out to be abysmal when it came to Alien intelligence and teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you are saying the team you were commanding was excellent? By whose standards? Yours?
I never said it was balanced. NS will never be truly balanced. The most balanced game to date is pong. Its only a ball, 2 tables, and its just skill. NS <b>MAY</b> reach someday a balanced state of sorts, but until then patches are going to keep coming up, and people will talk of balance, and the cycle wont ever stop.
I was just in a game much like Stoneburg's, great commander and an appearently superior marine, with almost all of the rez nodes, and we lost while chin deep in Oni. It doesn't even seem like the game is decided in the first few minutes, we almost killed their starting Hive, but when we failed we still had what seemed like an advantage, then we barely failed to bring down their second hive (while their third was being built) because of fades and Oni. We controlled the map (at least on paper) and kept them of the deffensive 90% of the game, but we lacked the ability to follow through as time went on.
I have to disagree on Mineshaft, I think it's a great map (Mineshaft, Origin, and Tanith are competing for my favorite right now). Again, I have yet to play a match there on a "good" server, but for some reason it's not featuring significantly in their rotations (all I keep getting is Tanith, Hera, Bast, with an occasional Nothing, Lost, or Origin thrown in).
Bast seems to be locked into the same strategy every game, which is locking down the double node and moving to feedwater. And they lose every time. I'd like to see some new strategies, but I'm no comm and I guess that double node close to MS is just way too tempting.
Hera's outside portion allows for significant cheese, but again, I feel the fight is too often decided at Holo Room. Holo is a little easier to lock down, but again, 99% of the time aliens overrun it and from there it's an easy victory.
Tanith, a lot of comms are learning that Reactor is a big mistake. There's a nice little vent (new to 2.0) in there that lets gorges rain down hell from the sky once two hives are achieved and can't have much done about it besides JPs or a constant guard across the room.
Origin I don't know as much about yet, but I feel like the marines put up a better fight most of the time. The double node usually stays locked down and there are two easy res nodes (comp lab and... refinery?) on either side of MS.
Lost makes me confused <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> It also seems to make most people confused, which might explain why it's hard to get the marines to figure out what's going on. The fight in Lost tends to be a losing battle centered at Los Paranoias (Yeah, I don't really know how to spell it ;-P). There's a bunch of tempting res nodes in that general area. I think the mistake a lot of comms make is not moving up further when they originally start. Trying to defend Los Paranoias right at the node is an exercise in defeat because the aliens can just whip around that corner and be in your face before you know what's happening.
Ah, forgot Veil. That's one where the double node is actually probably the best place for the marines to move to. A relocation there is not entirely unfeasible, especially if you remember to seal the vents in MS (or, again, the gorges bile bomb from above and your base is kaput).
i'm beginning to think back to those 'res for kills= promotes ramboing' threads. and when i think about it, those whiners might not have been as much wrong as i thought back then.
i once left my base as marine for a minute and during that minute, the whole base was levelled by skulks and gorges, many of the games i played ended up with either redemp onos or skulk/gorge rushes. it seems the kharaa aren't as resnode reliant as they were before, which is ironic somehow, marines now gotta scavenge for res nodes like the 1.04 kharaa while 2.0 kharaa can gain considerable res with only 2-3 minimal and climb up the foodchain(i didn't found teching up a good term for aliens so i made that phrase up).
something about 2.0 is the increase of teamwork in marines i've noticed, they mostly travel in groups of 3-6 instead of 2-4. and pay more attenion to teamys.
maybe we should just wait a bit more before suggesting nerfing kharaa or powering up 'rines. maybe marines haven't adjused yet?
I know how you feel stoneburg... it's damn frustrating sometimes. But I still like commanding, because it's a challenge, and when you DO win it feels great.
There's a few things that have been the key to victory in the games marines win, assuming the skills are about even: - element of surprise (<i>your chances are greatly increased if they're not prepared</i>) - gathering then rushing (<i>if you're going to hit them, hit them hard</i>) - shotguns early on (<i>anti-oc, anti-hive, anti-skulk, and cheap...</i>) - constant pressure, don't linger for too long (<i>put THEM on the defensive</i>) - electrify random nodes rather than TF (<i>cheaper, faster and most effective for what's needed</i>)
There's more but thats about the basics... Just gotta remember that time is against the marines.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Aug 10 2003, 08:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Aug 10 2003, 08:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think mineshaft is worse for marines than hera. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, laying down a few OCs at the bottom of the elevator outside marine start is always fun.
Securing Hives is a Waste of Time resorces and game play. Why would u do all that to protect something instead of taking down something. This will cost them Time and Money instead of wasting money and time which all it does is protect. Learn to attack not to defend Defenders always lose
<!--QuoteBegin--[Spec]Ice+Aug 10 2003, 09:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([Spec]Ice @ Aug 10 2003, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Securing Hives is a Waste of Time resorces and game play. Why would u do all that to protect something instead of taking down something. This will cost them Time and Money instead of wasting money and time which all it does is protect. Learn to attack not to defend Defenders always lose <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, very funny.
well, the one new thing that I hate is the sensory towers, gorges place them right next to where the marines are set up, and then just camp there till someone walks by, although it doesn't happen a lot it's very frustrating as a marine to try to get to a way point when invisible aliens kill you as you step out of base
also I liked staying at the third hive, and fade at the second, if they would have left that then the lower hive cost would help balance that out
another thing is that the redemtion onos has to go, I mean, unless they're down to one hive and we have HA there to kill the damn thing, it will never die, which is a problem
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Aug 10 2003, 07:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Aug 10 2003, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you are saying the team you were commanding was excellent? By whose standards? Yours?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 6 out of the 9 marines on Stoneburg's team there are not some random scrub, whereas atleast 5 of the alien players are. All of stone's team are at least above average skill here and against an alien team that bad the balance should not be so off kilter that they are going to need godlike players to win.
Limiting the hives again sounds like it would be OK in theory, but think about it. The marines rush one hive that can be well defended, relocate there, and set up camp, complete with turret pharming and everything. Your army of skulks can't compete. However, this is the only point they can be stopped at, and there's a slim chance indeed. You may even cap hive 2 while they tech up. Meanwhile, they grab HAs and HMGs/shotties. Without an Onos and devour, it's GG.
To rebalance this you have to rebalance fades and make them stronger (back to 1.04 levels?). Even then, you'd have to change around abilities so that they'd have a chance against turret farms and upgraded marines at hive 2. So now it's back to Fades being dominant, and the new strategy is for hive 2 to go up ASAP and a fade to be pumped out as soon as possible. Guess what? Fades are overpowered now, and new rebalancing has to occur.
Basically, this would set NS back to 1.04 levels, which I'm assuming wasn't Flayra's intention (obviously). The best way to improve NS is to work within the framework we have now and with the new dynamics.
<!--QuoteBegin--Infected Marine+Aug 10 2003, 08:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infected Marine @ Aug 10 2003, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was just in a game much like Stoneburg's, great commander and an appearently superior marine, with almost all of the rez nodes, and we lost while chin deep in Oni. It doesn't even seem like the game is decided in the first few minutes, we almost killed their starting Hive, but when we failed we still had what seemed like an advantage, then we barely failed to bring down their second hive (while their third was being built) because of fades and Oni. We controlled the map (at least on paper) and kept them of the deffensive 90% of the game, but we lacked the ability to follow through as time went on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Almost only counts in horseshoes and nuclear explosions.
<!--QuoteBegin--Wodin+Aug 10 2003, 11:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wodin @ Aug 10 2003, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Infected Marine+Aug 10 2003, 08:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infected Marine @ Aug 10 2003, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was just in a game much like Stoneburg's, great commander and an appearently superior marine, with almost all of the rez nodes, and we lost while chin deep in Oni. It doesn't even seem like the game is decided in the first few minutes, we almost killed their starting Hive, but when we failed we still had what seemed like an advantage, then we barely failed to bring down their second hive (while their third was being built) because of fades and Oni. We controlled the map (at least on paper) and kept them of the deffensive 90% of the game, but we lacked the ability to follow through as time went on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Almost only counts in horseshoes and nuclear explosions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Most likely you sucked.
And almost counts for hand grenades too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Marines just cant hang back and tech up and hope to kill aliens later with HA. YOU have to put them on the defensive. It´s your job to make sure they dont expand. Maybe you lost because you were a bad commander? Even if you thought you did everything right and lost, maybe its because the alien team was better? Maybe becuase you slacked off? Even if you had 10:1 KD ratio and still lose, then there´s something wrong with what you did.
- Remove RFK or limit it to 1 res per kill and raise income from RT's (it is supposed to be a *tactical* game)
- Lower turret speed a little
- Lower celerity to 30 (from 35)
- Either make Bilebomb OR Onos a 3 hive thing (I would prefer to just see web and bile change place)
- Lower cost of electrify to 20
- Reduce the time it takes to upgrade the armory OR remove it as a prequisite for Protolab.
- Lower the cost of Marine upgrades somewhat (like 5pts)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes... a few of things you listed are in the beta patch. Go chek it out.
I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that post = win <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i lost a couple of maps as marines, but won most of them. people are still using their strats they where using in 1.04. it won;t work (unless you have a very stupid alien team. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
expand! get as much res as possible. i like to take all the res on the way to a hive. mostly i wont secure them as it costs to many time with only a couple of rts. once the hive is secure i will go back to the previously capped resnodes to secure them. if i havent already got the 2 resnode location on the map i will go for that one next. (tf+siege, which is rather easy with 2 obs. one at base and one in the hive.)
double resnodes on a map should look like a small base. (tf, turrets, obs, armorie, pg)
..................
I've lost games on tanith where I 'control' 7/10 res but 0 hives. Thats right I lose even when the aliens only have 3 rt's. So res is not the be-all-end-all. Perhaps I am thinking too much as a 2.0 comm?
Everyone says 'omg cap teh res!!11!!', if I do this the aliens take offence and remove the offending res tower, even if I electify it. Do aliens on other servers not do this?
Incidentally has anyone ever consistanly won on caged? Thats pretty 'crazy' in its balance aswell.
I've lost games on tanith where I 'control' 7/10 res but 0 hives. Thats right I lose even when the aliens only have 3 rt's. So res is not the be-all-end-all. Perhaps I am thinking too much as a 2.0 comm?
Everyone says 'omg cap teh res!!11!!', if I do this the aliens take offence and remove the offending res tower, even if I electify it. Do aliens on other servers not do this?
Incidentally has anyone ever consistanly won on caged? Thats pretty 'crazy' in its balance aswell. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
like i said i take all the res on the way to the 1st hive. so i always got one hive. and i rarely use electrify to protect my rts. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> one onos or a couple of skulks have it down in no time. i like to put a tf at every res i cap and then i might electrify. so when i lose the tf atleast it will give my team some more time to get there.
once i have the hive i normally have around 4 or 5 resnodes capped (including base and hive). so res starts flowing nicely and you can start securing them one after the other, get upgrades and start working on some other keypoints in the map.
I to am a constellation member, and a server op, but I don't think the solution is any major balance tweaks, just perhaps make it a LITTLE bit easier to get a few early upgrades for marines so they can actually have a small fighting chance. Any more than this small chance will upset the balance greatly.
Seriously, though, the thing with 2.0 is you have to expand quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but by quickly meaning you have to secure both hives within 3-4 minutes is a little extreme. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And two hive lockdowns ruin the game man. I refuse to do them as a comm, its just not fun for the aliens to get blasted by turrets that now never seem to miss. Its long, dragged out, and boring to do two hive lockdowns.
Here's what Flayra says:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 competitive games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if you're going to claim that it is balanced, don't base it on the Devs, because those who made it obviously feel different. Notice how it says *competetive* games? That means games with good players. So far, the only servers that I have heard has frequent Marine wins have turned out to be abysmal when it came to Alien intelligence and teamwork.
Oh and blink rocks.
--Dep
i have almost the same ideas..
i just cant stand to see my skilled team get beaten to death by a single noob that just presses forward + attack witha redemption onos... 0 skill... 0 everything... he just eats, (or in 201a gores... just a lil slower), and then rdeems, destroying the marine little by little
the problem is, with aliens, you can put 2 ocs, and thats it, no single marine (no matter how well equiped he is) will destroy everything you got there... e will be dead before you can say you base is under attack
with aliens its a whole different story, an onos (or even fade or gorge) can destroy any of your outposts with ease in around a minute, so you have to be focused and protecting all your stuff 100% of the time, oh and when marines come out from the pase they got at least 1 or 2 swipes or gores before they know where they are standing
in short, single aliens ae overpowered, so, they need to be erfed so they work more as a team, i mean 2.0 retail is being owned by unorganized aliens, i just cant imagine 2 gorges healing 2 onos 2 fades and 2 lerks giving constant umbra to them...... its impossible to survive that, period.
I usually play as alien, but its getting to be too easy, almost like JP/HMG in 1.04.
I think one major difference that has maybe never been addressed is the fact that even if no one on either team builds a single thing, aliens can respawn. They dont have to spend 10-20 precious early seconds making sure they can spawn back in after a foolhearty base rush, which the aliens usually do.
It would be like if the aliens had to drop the first hive at the beginning of the round (albeit with a much faster growth time than a usual hive).
If the marines relocate, they have to build a comm chair (essentially a hive mind) AND build a respawning portal, whereas the aliens just have to drop a hive at a lower res cost. Sure the marines can relocate anywhere, but most try to relocate to one of the hives, making it essentially the same.
I love 2.0, dont get me wrong, but playing on the marines is getting frustrating, even with an excellent comm. Some of the beta fixes I'm not so sure about.
Let me explain. Alien teams that do not defend res points, do not have 1vs5/6 STRAIGHT off the bat res node wise and haven't secured a 2nd hive about 3 minutes into the game don't know what they are doing. Once this occurs the alien tech occurs amazingly fast, I've seen in 13 minutes movement/defence aliens with fades and onos crush a marine team, turret farms or not. In one pub game with decent marine (good comm) got slaughtered by a team consisting merely of me and other aliens who KNEW what do to. Even with a clan stack a good comm we butchered them in under 20 minutes. When I look up and see a res count of 2 vs 6 in 3 minutes, I know I've got a good alien team.
If you are claiming marines are fine against aliens, and you see that res count being 3 vs 4 or whatever, <b>you are not playing good aliens, end of story</b>.
Alien teams that play to win dominate the res points AND defend them. It is harder for the marines to play offence, than it is for aliens.
A kick in the <i>gonads</i> is always free <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think the largest problem is that very few know how to be a marine in 2.0 Being an alien however is quite the same as it was in 1.0X, so no new learning must be undertaken. I truly think that after a minth o two of hard playing, the marines will find their niche.
I agree with you however - but we all must trust in Flayra to do the right thing. He WILL do the right thing-it's only a matter of time.
Here's what Flayra says:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 competitive games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if you're going to claim that it is balanced, don't base it on the Devs, because those who made it obviously feel different. Notice how it says *competetive* games? That means games with good players. So far, the only servers that I have heard has frequent Marine wins have turned out to be abysmal when it came to Alien intelligence and teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are saying the team you were commanding was excellent? By whose standards? Yours?
Okay. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I never said it was balanced. NS will never be truly balanced. The most balanced game to date is pong. Its only a ball, 2 tables, and its just skill.
NS <b>MAY</b> reach someday a balanced state of sorts, but until then patches are going to keep coming up, and people will talk of balance, and the cycle wont ever stop.
Bast seems to be locked into the same strategy every game, which is locking down the double node and moving to feedwater. And they lose every time. I'd like to see some new strategies, but I'm no comm and I guess that double node close to MS is just way too tempting.
Hera's outside portion allows for significant cheese, but again, I feel the fight is too often decided at Holo Room. Holo is a little easier to lock down, but again, 99% of the time aliens overrun it and from there it's an easy victory.
Tanith, a lot of comms are learning that Reactor is a big mistake. There's a nice little vent (new to 2.0) in there that lets gorges rain down hell from the sky once two hives are achieved and can't have much done about it besides JPs or a constant guard across the room.
Origin I don't know as much about yet, but I feel like the marines put up a better fight most of the time. The double node usually stays locked down and there are two easy res nodes (comp lab and... refinery?) on either side of MS.
Lost makes me confused <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It also seems to make most people confused, which might explain why it's hard to get the marines to figure out what's going on. The fight in Lost tends to be a losing battle centered at Los Paranoias (Yeah, I don't really know how to spell it ;-P). There's a bunch of tempting res nodes in that general area. I think the mistake a lot of comms make is not moving up further when they originally start. Trying to defend Los Paranoias right at the node is an exercise in defeat because the aliens can just whip around that corner and be in your face before you know what's happening.
Ah, forgot Veil. That's one where the double node is actually probably the best place for the marines to move to. A relocation there is not entirely unfeasible, especially if you remember to seal the vents in MS (or, again, the gorges bile bomb from above and your base is kaput).
i once left my base as marine for a minute and during that minute, the whole base was levelled by skulks and gorges, many of the games i played ended up with either redemp onos or skulk/gorge rushes. it seems the kharaa aren't as resnode reliant as they were before, which is ironic somehow, marines now gotta scavenge for res nodes like the 1.04 kharaa while 2.0 kharaa can gain considerable res with only 2-3 minimal and climb up the foodchain(i didn't found teching up a good term for aliens so i made that phrase up).
something about 2.0 is the increase of teamwork in marines i've noticed, they mostly travel in groups of 3-6 instead of 2-4. and pay more attenion to teamys.
maybe we should just wait a bit more before suggesting nerfing kharaa or powering up 'rines. maybe marines haven't adjused yet?
lol
Is it that sexy?
There's a few things that have been the key to victory in the games marines win, assuming the skills are about even:
- element of surprise (<i>your chances are greatly increased if they're not prepared</i>)
- gathering then rushing (<i>if you're going to hit them, hit them hard</i>)
- shotguns early on (<i>anti-oc, anti-hive, anti-skulk, and cheap...</i>)
- constant pressure, don't linger for too long (<i>put THEM on the defensive</i>)
- electrify random nodes rather than TF (<i>cheaper, faster and most effective for what's needed</i>)
There's more but thats about the basics...
Just gotta remember that time is against the marines.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, laying down a few OCs at the bottom of the elevator outside marine start is always fun.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Haha, very funny.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
also I liked staying at the third hive, and fade at the second, if they would have left that then the lower hive cost would help balance that out
another thing is that the redemtion onos has to go, I mean, unless they're down to one hive and we have HA there to kill the damn thing, it will never die, which is a problem
just some things that I find frustrating
So you are saying the team you were commanding was excellent? By whose standards? Yours?
Okay. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
6 out of the 9 marines on Stoneburg's team there are not some random scrub, whereas atleast 5 of the alien players are. All of stone's team are at least above average skill here and against an alien team that bad the balance should not be so off kilter that they are going to need godlike players to win.
To rebalance this you have to rebalance fades and make them stronger (back to 1.04 levels?). Even then, you'd have to change around abilities so that they'd have a chance against turret farms and upgraded marines at hive 2. So now it's back to Fades being dominant, and the new strategy is for hive 2 to go up ASAP and a fade to be pumped out as soon as possible. Guess what? Fades are overpowered now, and new rebalancing has to occur.
Basically, this would set NS back to 1.04 levels, which I'm assuming wasn't Flayra's intention (obviously). The best way to improve NS is to work within the framework we have now and with the new dynamics.
Almost only counts in horseshoes and nuclear explosions.
Almost only counts in horseshoes and nuclear explosions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most likely you sucked.
And almost counts for hand grenades too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->