Are Fades Underused?

Jammer · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Discuss</div> Are Fades being underused? It used to be that a team of Fades was neccesary. Now that we have Onos anytime, it seems that people will either gorge with 50 res, or save up for Onos. The new weapons structure certainly makes being fade a much tougher experience. The lack of range attacked means the a skilled fade must master swipe and blink (and metabolize with 2 hives) in order to be effective. The new effectivness of shotguns certainly make Fades much weaker. While a shotgun fade kill in 1.04 was tough, the new guns seem to make it almost too easy.

I also feel an underused aspect of the game is the teamwork between Onos and Fades. I was playing on CoFR, Mineshaft. We rushed the Marine base, me (Fade), an onos, and a few skulks. The Onos just ran around stunning marines while I'd blink up and swipe them to death. I probably got about 4 kills before I needed to blink out to safety.

So how have you seen Fades used? Too much? To little?

acer_r1 · August 2003

i usually take fade over onos, and when the game starts i save straight for fade, although most people would argue that i should put up teh hive, but i save my teams 2nd hive area with this

RuneGrey · August 2003

Fades can be rather fun overall - heck, I LOVE the new blink, although I would prefer to be invisuble when I use it (After all, what's the fun of being immaterial if they can see and shoot you?). But after my first *bing* *clawclawclaw* experience with a light armor marine with an HMG, who was very surprised to see a fade move THAT fast... I was sold on how fun fades could be. Who needs acid rockets - you're the ultimate predator now. Not to mention when the marines cheese and build outside on Hera, while they might expect to deal with lerks, the occasional fade blinking over is always fun.

KRagg · August 2003

Ah, the fade.

Well... The thing is, the fade feels lacking.

0 Hives 1 Hive 2 Hives 3 Hives
Skulk Bite Parasite Leap Xenocide
Gorge Spit Healspray Bilebomb Web
Lerk Spikes Spores Umbra Primal Scream
Fade Slash Blink Metabolize Acid Rocket
Onos Maul Devour Stomp Charge

(bah, either color or Code, so I guess I'll go with color)

Anyway, as you can see, the fade only gets two attacks and the last one is only available after the third hive goes up. 50 res for just slashing doesn't seem worth it, and if you do get the third hive up, you're probably about to win and are getting enough res to go onos if you wait just a little bit longer, which has three attacks and the fourth disables marines in its path.

TranquilChaos · August 2003

Early fades are wonderful if they are skilled. A lone marine lacking heavy armor is almost always fade meat unless he has a lot of skill and luck. Small groups of lmgers are also easy fade prey. The fade is now the ultimate hit and run fighter, with blink a fade can quickly get in or out of any firefight. The only time I prefer using an onos over a fade is when facing a large group of heavies, a fade can do very little by itself to take out a group of heavies beyond a few seconds of harassment between heals.

Fades are also great for taking out light defenses, regen fades can easily take out a small turret farm, or resoruce nozzle. If a marine comes to defend his rt, just crouch behind it and keep hitting it, he will most likely either empty his clip into the resource tower, or close in on you to get a better angle, either way he's lunchmeat.

Unforntunately, many of the fades I see are new players who think they look neat, or saw someone else do well with a fade. A fade that doesn't know how to use blink is just amusing the marines for the few short seconds it spends alive in combat.

XCan · August 2003

I still miss how a fade will almost certainly go down vs a SG who can aim.

n4s7y · August 2003

A few fades during midgame can be immensely dangerous. Fades can take care of the electrified RTs and stop LA squads in their tracks (with support). Not everyone should go fade, as pretty soon you'll need those onus (ONUS, mwhahaha) to take care of the HA.

Anyhow, I prefer lerk to fades, as fades can stop LA squads much more effectively then a fade with spores. However, a fade in good hands can do so much...

ZiGGY · August 2003

I like fades but in the later game they feel lacking without a cara boost. 1 shot from a lvl3 shotgun to die ... ;p

Spazmatic · August 2003

Fades with regen = the win against early electrification (short of exploiting).

Fades with meta - the win against everything.

Fades that land on your head with blink and then begin slashing = priceless.

Fades are cool, and the fact is, you're not paying for slash so much as you're paying for blink! And later the uber silly acid spam.

The_Finch · August 2003

I don't care for Fades anymore. I used to love acid rocket, acid rocket, duck around corner, back around corner, blink, swipe, swipe, chuckle.

Honestly, it feels like I'm paying 50 res for a bigger Skulk. There's no ranged attack until 3 hives, so shotguns rip Fades apart. Slash is only 5 more damage then Skulk chompeh. Blink utterly saps your energy. They're slow for a melee alien (Yeah, I know, blink. But you can't blink in, attack and blink out without running out of energy). If Fades are built for hit and run now, they just don't feel worth it for the price tag. Lerks and Skulks make great hit and run aliens and don't cost as much.

They do have the advantage of being really good in the early game if you can kill enough marines to get the 50 res. However, once you hit midgame, upgraded weapons own them. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Trojan2 · August 2003

As a marine player (only since v2 came out) I love the new fades. I love the feeling of wasting a 50 res evolution with my little LMG and then getting 1-3 res for my team to boot! Once lev 2-3 guns are up I can take them on and win more often then not (and if I lose so what, You got 1-3 res yeah great!)
I love fighting em down corridors where I can kill them while there blinking (got to love that weak new blink)
Swipe works like a slower bite and fades make for a much easer target then a skulk. Once HMGs and upgraded LMGs show up I can engauge them with confadence knowing that unless there lucky or catch me on the reload im probley going to win.

When I play aleins I find that I get more kills with a skulk then just about any fades players. Leap plus celerity means im going to move the map nearly as fast, Bite does the same damage and my hit box is MUCH smaller then a fade. That along with the fact a teched up skulk cost 6 res compared to 56 for a fade, why even have fades in the game?
Now v1.4 fades where a different story. Old blink was with out a doubt the best power in the game in the hands of a pro. Fades had ALOT more stand up power and had acid rocket for busting up turret farms and softening tight groups of marines before you blinked behind them for the kill. Not only that they dident have those retardo gimp-claws that the new fades has

Grimm · August 2003

Fades are pretty cool now, the blink swipe blink thing is a definite winner, and I'm sure the marines I've killed with it **** their pants when they saw me right beside them after I had been down the hallway a second ago. But I must say that it does feel lacking when compared to 1.04 Fade. So now I usually Lerk rather than Fade, but I'll get used to it eventually.

Spazmatic · August 2003

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>catch me on the reload im probley going to win</td></tr></table>

That's the idea. You have to be there unexpectedly, at just the right time, preferably with cara, kill a few guys, and blink out. Then meta your arse off.

Fades, however, are really at their finest at the very beginning, when that early 1 minute fade can smash through entire groups of unupgraded, confused lmgs, effectively slowing the marine expansion to a crawl. That and a fade with regeneration renders electricity useless (basically), which is the other big benefit.

Necrosis · August 2003

"Honestly, it feels like I'm paying 50 res for a bigger Skulk"

My sentiment. I've never went Fade before acid rockets, mostly because I'm still learning and I'm not confident of blink.

However, now that I'm happy with my other classes, fade is the next to go under the microscope. If blink gives me a considerable advantage over going Lerk, then I may become a Fader.

Though IMHO the Lerk is most attractive class to me, for cost as well as variety of use.

twiliteblue · August 2003

Are Fades underused? Yes.
Are Fades underpowered? Hell yeah!

Don't get me wrong. Acid rocket *was* overpowered IMO. But now that it is moved to slot 4, the old nerfs (smaller splash area x 2) are really hurting this old favorite.
The new Blink is, IMO weaker than the old one, as you no longer cloak as you Blink, and vulnerable. The weakness of the new Blink becomes obvious (and frustrating) when you play on a 56k (me):
You run out of energy in one second!
What's better is, you are perfectly in range of the new uber SG.

The new shotgun and HMG simple blast Fades out of the thin air, just like what Fades did to marines in 1.0x.

My suggestions are:
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> Lower Blink energy drain to help them become the shock troopers they truely are.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> Increase Fade jumping height ([EDIT] to make them more manuveuverable. Com'on! Their hind legs suggest they can move faster than that! I really love the AvP2 predator crouch-jump super leap. [/EDIT]).
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> Increase acid rocket radius back to 200 again.

Any critical suggestions these suggestions are welcomed. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'>

Spazmatic · August 2003

Acid rocket is more of a support weapon now. The push effect owns (though xenocide's push effect owns double!) I like it this way as well.

Uzguz · August 2003

I agree that Blink costs a little too much. The way I see it, Blink isn't for closing gaps faster, it's actually a manouverability support weapon; you don't Blink in someone's direction, you Blink somewhere behind him, and then, with it, fly around him for a bit. You use it in combat to make yourself alot harder to hit, not simply faster-moving. However, as you can only really Blink enough to close the gap, not play with your prey, this great use is quite simply impossible.

If a Marine is actually able to aim at the Fade, it will go down. This is the idea. The new Blink is supposed to stop you from being hit in the new version. Without being able to use it enough at one particular moment, Blink can't serve its purpose.

As it is, there is still such a thing as the effective Fade. With Blink being less costly, the Fade's potential is pushed higher. It still doesn't make the Fade any easier for noobs to use; being able to Blink more doesn't make it simpler to control, and, even if you could Blink for longer, if you stuffed it, you'd die all the same. You still need to be good with Blink to unleash the increased potential this would bring. But for a pro, the less costly Blink would make the Fade quite simply incredible.

As for the loss of Acid Rocket - a ranged attack, in such a context as a Fade would actually be in to use it, has the same merits as Blink would, if it were to cost less: it allows you to attack while allowing for less chance of counterattack. If you can't be hit, as, with mastery of a less costly Blink, you couldn't be most of the time, the same purpose is served. The difference is that it is harder for one to accomplish this with Blink than a ranged attack; this simply meaning that the Fade requires more skill to use than it used to.

And if it's the new degree of skill required of an effective Fade that is discouraging people, well - get over it.

Rokiyo · August 2003

Getting used to the massive (1-2 seconds) amount of time it takes to switch alien weapons now makes fading considerably more difficult...

*blink*
- 2 seconds -
*swipe* *swipe*
- .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz killed NSPlayer with swipe -
- 2 seconds -
*blink* *blink*
- 2 seconds -
*swipe* *swipe*
- .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz killed (1)NSPlayer with swipe -
*swipe* *swipe*
- .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz killed (2)NSPlayer with swipe -
- not quite 2 seconds -
- (3)NSPlayer killed .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz with knife -
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Ofcourse it just means that nowadays I have to blink in, kill 1 or 2 guys and then run like hell to metabolise... The weapon switch delays make a bigger difference than I could have ever imagined (I bind slots to my mouse buttons, so I don't have to waste too much team reaching across keys).

It pretty much stops the fade from being able to use blink as an effective combat tool, as you have to factor in almost 4 seconds of weapon switching time, not to mention the actual time spent blinking. I've found I can effectively blink into battle by jumping a wee bit before i reach the marines, allowing me to switch weapons in midair and not lose too much speed (therefore not making me a big slow target). However it takes quite a bit of practise to factor in slopes, obstacles and marine movement so that you pretty much land next to a marine just in time to start swiping away... Trying to blink away from combat is a bit of a nightmare too, seeing as you have to predict how much health you'll have left by the time you finish switching to blink, so that you don't do what I did in the above example and push yourself too far....

So blinking in and out of combat is fine, but using it to continually stay behind the marines is all but impossible (especially since running fast as opposed to teleporting now means that even the dumbest of marines saw where you went anyway.... And if all else fails then there is always their minimap painting a freakin big red bullseye on my ****....)

Brass_Pigeon · August 2003

been playing as a fade a lot the last few days and I'm starting to like it more and more. I actually like the new blink because it allows you to make sudden stops and silly moves to confuse marines (+ it works on my old machine in contrary to the old blink which only worked 1 out of 20 times I tried to).

I do find that the fade demands a lot of nerves to handle. You need to know when to switch weapons etc because one mistake is usually fatal. Might have to bind weapons to my mouse too.
Not sure about the acid rockets specs...

sej · August 2003

Slash = extremely powerful when combined with blink

Metabolise = you hardly ever die.

XCan · August 2003

Please all of you that say you can blink and kill anything without sweating a bit. Tell me, how in the name of hell do you cope with 2 marines with SG, or for the sake of easy things 1 marine with SG. And keep in mind let's say these marines have an accuracy of 50%.
Don't use the lerk support thing, since this isn't about it, it's about a 50 res creature that goes down to a 10 res weapon.

Freddeh · August 2003

Fades can be extrememly powerful in the right hands.

I took out a turret factory with turrets and 3 guys sitting there at mainenance hive on caged (or is it vent.) All with only blink and swipe and metabolism. I took it out, but they got reinforcements, i killed them, they got MORE reinforcements and put up a turret factory again. I took them out and they came back again, and got a phase gate up. Then i finally got overpowered by like 5 of them. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

I got probably 10-15 kills as a lone fade with no support by blinking, swiping, then blinking away to heal. Then coming back to repeat. too bad noone would come and put the hive up <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

taboofires · August 2003

Fades can slaughter light armor marines. Blink in, take out one or two, blink out. Rinse, repeat. They won't get far out of their base. The problem comes with taking out buildings: a 2.0 fade isn't nearly the tank that the 1.4 one is, so if you try to use him as such, you're going to die. Fades are best used on ground where you have the speed advantage and a comparible level of firepower. A marine base full of turrets is neither. That's what an onos is for.

I think the blink energy usage is a tad high as well. A decrease of 10-20% would be about right.

Uzguz · August 2003

I agree that the other problem with the Fade is the time it takes to switch between Slash/Blink. To strike suddenly after flying around for a bit, you need to be able to change to Slash suddenly, and back again suddenly if you want to fly around some more. Actually, I find this to be more of a disappointment than the energy cost, as it is a hindrance in more circumstances (you don't always need to Blink around a room like there's no tomorrow to avoid getting hit, though it is devastating if you can).

Indeed, a single Fade, properly trained in the art of Blinking, can wipe out a group of stock marines. This is their true purpose. However, as previously stated, they are supposed to avoid damage to do it. With Regeneration, it doesn't matter if you get hit a little; if you get hit a lot, it's a problem. Mastery of Blink solves this problem; but not enough. It still needs a slight energy cost reduction, and the weapon switch delay needs to be drastically lowered. With these two changes, and if the masses practised with the Fade a bit more, I believe they'd come back into mainstream use, and so they should.

SoulSpawn · August 2003

guys u guys all complain about this so called "weapon change delay" thou i my self can barely tell teh diffence in 1.04 weapon chnage and ns2 it feels the same to be and u should have ur swipe out befor ur out of blink if u are in teh air and stop blink u fly along with ur swipe oout ready to take down that annoying marine that killing a rt the probelm i find it slopes u hit the smallest bump and ur 30 foot into the air befor u know it over comign this took a wee while but i got it after a while flying as fade stop any bump hiting and also helps u move alot faster and easier. to dodge those bullet just switch to blink and jump up and down and they cant hit u they are like 3 feet behind ya with there fire soon as u here the famous click of a empty clip stop adn walk toward him he is history. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'>

ZiGGY · August 2003

the weapon change delay in 2.0 is enormous compared to 1.04

Uzguz · August 2003

Indeed it is enormous compared to 1.04, but also, in 1.04, as you couldn't do what you can now, it didn't matter so much, and was thus far less noticeable.

Trevelyan · August 2003

i have a problem with fades... When i use him, any marine that takes a step outside of their base without 2+ buddies just dies like nothing, but the second they get their turrets up, they get all cozy in there and NEVER COME OUT... phases just make it worse. If they could get the weapon switch time down it would be awsome, although it doesnt bother me as much after i have started going cerelity, carapice, SoF. just a small blink near the rine's general area and then run over to him at decent speed. uncerelity fade's are damn slow, almost unbalanced slow. Aren't they supposed to be a shock trooper? the 2.0 fade sure seems as slow as the lumbering onos without blink.

Uzguz · August 2003

Well. Firstly, you have to bear in mind that the Fade isn't supposed to be able to demolish a turret farm. Of course, the fact that they aren't this way purposed doesn't mean it's impossible for them, although it almost is right now. Anyway, that said...

I find that, with Blink, you move quickly enough if you A) Blink in the air, rather than along the ground, and B) hold forward while you Blink (this does make a small difference). Anyway, if Blink was too fast, it'd be too difficult to control. What a Fade really needs right now is Adrenaline, owing to what is, in my and many people's opinions, too high an energy cost for Blink. If this problem were corrected, the other movement upgrades would be more viable, but as it is, you simply can't Blink enough without to achieve the results it is fully capable of.

If, with a Fade, you are, against intrinsic intentions, attempting to demolish a turret farm (or just about anything with more than one turret, for that matter), the weapon switch delay does indeed cause a problem (a pretty big one, actually). All the more reason why it should be lowered... One asks why it is so big in the first place... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Oh, and by the way: I'd recommend Regeneration over Carapace. It isn't particularly fast, but heals you while you're Blinking, and also while you're recovering energy (it can often make Metabolise memorably hilarious, as one or two stupid marines sees you unmoving and shoots, not realising that not only are they giving you critical energy back, but you're healing the damage as they do it anyway). I don't know if Carapace slows down Blinking, but if it does, it's probably why you think the Fade is too slow.

Edit: Only now have I noticed the "without Blink" part: the Fade should never not be Blinking if it is moving in combat. Given Blink, the Fade has no reason to walk/run in combat (unless you run out of energy, which is harder to do if you have Adrenaline), and anyway, as stated, Carapace is probably why the Fade seems so slow, with or without Blink.

sej · August 2003

please, regeneration fade is the most stupid suggestion made. ever. UNLESS you only have 1 hive, in which case u prolly wont have dc and should be using that 50 res to put a hive up.

so -

use metabolise

I once saw ppl using regen celerity fade ina clan match when they had two hives up..

...sigh

edit: uzguz i dont know if youre confused or something, but metabolise gives health back, not energy, making regen utterly obsolete, and a wasteof an upgrade.

tankefugl · August 2003

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Revenge @ Aug 11 2003, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Getting used to the massive (1-2 seconds) amount of time it takes to switch alien weapons now makes fading considerably more difficult...

*blink*
- 2 seconds -
*swipe* *swipe*
- .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz killed NSPlayer with swipe -
- 2 seconds -
*blink* *blink*
- 2 seconds -
*swipe* *swipe*
- .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz killed (1)NSPlayer with swipe -
*swipe* *swipe*
- .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz killed (2)NSPlayer with swipe -
- not quite 2 seconds -
- (3)NSPlayer killed .::FeX::. Revenge.co.nz with knife -
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Ofcourse it just means that nowadays I have to blink in, kill 1 or 2 guys and then run like hell to metabolise... The weapon switch delays make a bigger difference than I could have ever imagined (I bind slots to my mouse buttons, so I don't have to waste too much team reaching across keys).

It pretty much stops the fade from being able to use blink as an effective combat tool, as you have to factor in almost 4 seconds of weapon switching time, not to mention the actual time spent blinking. I've found I can effectively blink into battle by jumping a wee bit before i reach the marines, allowing me to switch weapons in midair and not lose too much speed (therefore not making me a big slow target). However it takes quite a bit of practise to factor in slopes, obstacles and marine movement so that you pretty much land next to a marine just in time to start swiping away... Trying to blink away from combat is a bit of a nightmare too, seeing as you have to predict how much health you'll have left by the time you finish switching to blink, so that you don't do what I did in the above example and push yourself too far....

So blinking in and out of combat is fine, but using it to continually stay behind the marines is all but impossible (especially since running fast as opposed to teleporting now means that even the dumbest of marines saw where you went anyway.... And if all else fails then there is always their minimap painting a freakin big red bullseye on my ****....)  </td></tr></table> 
Weapon switching delay? The only delay I've experienced is the delay for the graphics to change. The attack is still there.

So ... If you use hud_fastswitch 1, and change weapon the second before you reach your target, you still attack those 2 seconds before the weapon "switches" even though you don't see the attack animation.

Same goes for leap and bite. That's real leapkill.

Are Fades Underused?

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