Noob Marines Make My Blood Pressure Rise
spyduck
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18939Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18939Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And some words on waypoints</div> Sometimes comming a complete team of noobs makes me think of recycling the IP's, for the good of the game.
Seriously, some marines are such a discredit to the game its more embarassing to let the game go on and give a
real "commanding" effort than just let the aliens win.
- Marines who don't know the basic areas on the maps that were from 1.04 and ask for a waypoint to really really simple
locations. Or how about totally new designed maps, with such locations as The Overlook or West Junction?
Me : (I say on the mic) " its the middle res node on the left side of the map"
They think im speaking in martian.
Me: "hit the c key to bring up your minimap."
They: "Just waypoint me"
I finally find the little **** (at least 5 seconds to locate him, and to click on his randomly running around ****, then click his waypoint to the location, while im wasting valuable map planning/scanning time, droppping medpacks, upgrading my equipment, etc)
- Marines who need orders - Use your mic and teamchat to figure out whats going on! The comm does not have 15 seconds to spare to tell you where to go unless its through voice comm where he can speak while multi-tasking freely. There's so much to multi-task, one of the worst "tasks" is having to set a waypoint to say, the double res area. Or something like "The left bottom hive". The labeling is self-evident of its location, yet they still need waypoints. Can you say high school dropout?
On Waypoints
Waypoints are excellent when you want to take an unobvious area, such as the res siege control as mentioned in some earlier postings,
but for the most part alot of marines are asking for waypoints because they don't even know wher to go. The minimap is a blessing but so many
morons aren't even using it.
This is my checklist for all marines
Hit your C key. By the team chatter, you should be able to piece together roughly the state of the game (ie we're getting slaughtered or not)
check for unbuilt items. check the res nodes. Are they alive? Are they taken? What res nodes are free? Some marines think the end point of the game is to just shoot aliens. If that was the point then we'd be playing deathmatch on Quake. Killing aliens is a byproduct of taking control of areas. When in doubt, don't ask the commander what to do. If you can't piece together whats going on you are either not using your mic/teamchat and/or haven't done enough information gathering.
Seriously, some marines are such a discredit to the game its more embarassing to let the game go on and give a
real "commanding" effort than just let the aliens win.
- Marines who don't know the basic areas on the maps that were from 1.04 and ask for a waypoint to really really simple
locations. Or how about totally new designed maps, with such locations as The Overlook or West Junction?
Me : (I say on the mic) " its the middle res node on the left side of the map"
They think im speaking in martian.
Me: "hit the c key to bring up your minimap."
They: "Just waypoint me"
I finally find the little **** (at least 5 seconds to locate him, and to click on his randomly running around ****, then click his waypoint to the location, while im wasting valuable map planning/scanning time, droppping medpacks, upgrading my equipment, etc)
- Marines who need orders - Use your mic and teamchat to figure out whats going on! The comm does not have 15 seconds to spare to tell you where to go unless its through voice comm where he can speak while multi-tasking freely. There's so much to multi-task, one of the worst "tasks" is having to set a waypoint to say, the double res area. Or something like "The left bottom hive". The labeling is self-evident of its location, yet they still need waypoints. Can you say high school dropout?
On Waypoints
Waypoints are excellent when you want to take an unobvious area, such as the res siege control as mentioned in some earlier postings,
but for the most part alot of marines are asking for waypoints because they don't even know wher to go. The minimap is a blessing but so many
morons aren't even using it.
This is my checklist for all marines
Hit your C key. By the team chatter, you should be able to piece together roughly the state of the game (ie we're getting slaughtered or not)
check for unbuilt items. check the res nodes. Are they alive? Are they taken? What res nodes are free? Some marines think the end point of the game is to just shoot aliens. If that was the point then we'd be playing deathmatch on Quake. Killing aliens is a byproduct of taking control of areas. When in doubt, don't ask the commander what to do. If you can't piece together whats going on you are either not using your mic/teamchat and/or haven't done enough information gathering.
Comments
I drop a structure in front of them and give them a waypoint (although just a 'go to' as build are hard to get) and they wander off. I mean, for godsake, it isn't going to build itself....
But after about a week of solid playing, it has dawned on me just how much of the trouble Marines have is because of idiot marine players.
They beg for better guns, when we've got 3 or 4 res. They sit in Marine spawn with HA and HMG because they're afraid to die. After respawning, they spend a minute at the armory completely filling up on LMG and pistol ammo, while the commander is desperately trying to get them to go through the phase gate and save an outpost that's going down.
I think it would be alot of fun to play on a solid, experienced marine team. Unfortunately, the chances of finding one on pub are very very small.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, folks, before we go further.
Sometimes people find it hard to read the map and move. I have no problems with it, mostly because Aliens Vs Predator on the Atari Jaguar. Or Doom, for instance. The other good point about waypoints is that it gets everyone going in the one direction. Many a time I've seen people split up and take both ways to the objective. And then die. And then complain to comm that the objective is covered with OT, despite the fact they've just taken the scenic route through alien turf miles from the obj. Waypoints prevent this some of the time, though it means following the group.
I am not saying marines are dumb if they don't go around, but if they split up then even one skulk can cripple the advance.
For building, I hear the noise, see the flash, and don't notice anything appearing. It has happened, once, that we were in base and it was an arms factory appearing behind me. Neither I or another player noticed, so we went off. The comm asked to build, we went back. Small slipup.
Listening to voicecomm and reading teamchat is good, but sometimes people don't report their comings and goings. Most players ask the comm because when you look on the map sometimes its just a rambo convention. Who do you follow?
Back on the other side of the fence...
"They sit in Marine spawn with HA and HMG because they're afraid to die"
Or Rambo incessantly into Onii. Yes, the standard of pub marine players is diabolic. Somewhat aided by the lack of decent comms. Without a good comm, experienced players fall back on initiative. Nubs see this and decide "wow, ramboing is for me".
Of course to supplement their poor rambo ability, they decide they need better guns, armour. And then you're left with the common and garden marine player screaming for better stuff, as it will magically help them, before running off into the nearest skulk nest.
I am loathe to lay the blame at the door of the comm or the players. I think the truth is somewhere inbetween. A decent comm with a bad team will lose. A decent comm with two players whom the bad team will listen to, may win. A poor comm with two good players on a bad team can win depending on the players ability. A bad comm, with a bad team, die to a skulk rush.
Give or take. And bad team doesn't always mean in terms of skill. More in terms of coordination. Its all very well if one person can shoot the three skulks rushing the base, but if noone else helps and he dies, the base is toast. Bad team.
What you have to do as a noob is generally assume you aren't going to be of any asset to your team besides being one more body to chew on while the other marines fire or to help build something.
Just make sure you learn every map and every major area's name. Yeah, it takes a while but an experienced team that knows every map and nearly every major room name (at least ones with res) will kick more butt than a team that doesn't instinctively know by name.
Also when you need help or someone asks for help you will know immediately where to go. So yeah, stick with it and learn all the maps ins and outs, dont plan on doing anything heroic yet.
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a worthy occasion in every commander's career. I think of it as coming of age, recycling your first base <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I must say though that the marine team attracts noobs for this reason: marines get guns, aliens don't. The noobs figure they can just play this like cs and "pwn0rz" while in fact they have to find out the hard way that they will get "pwn0rz".
And as for recycling the ips, I say just make a turret farm. You could also try to trap the noob marines in a turret so they can see up close that a turret farm will not work if the aliens have more then 1 hive. Learning through example...
JUST HAVE FUN <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> *roars*
Go rambo, do heroics do not listen to your com just to see what happens. Then go com and experience marines doing this. Then you will see how to play if you want to win.. (I think that is the best way to *learn* the game) If you see that your team gets pwned every game you will find out what to do and what not. And the vets please do not be so arrogant. We all started as newbies..
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What noobies should do, is use common sense. You are the new guy! Don't hop into the comm chair. Don't ask for all the support. I played the game the first time without having once read the manual or experiment in SP. I spent one round as an alien, got the hang of the mechanics, then went marine, and had no problem. Follow your waypoints, follow orders, support your comrades. Don't be too meek, though, as even though I was new to NS, I wasn't the worst player not even my first night. Now, I'm still not really a 'veteran' and I'm better than most of the people I play with on pubs. The thing is, I don't mind new people. I hate 'noobs', see? Noobs are people with bad attitudes, who don't think, and who don't understand anything. I've played with Noobs who have been around since, by their claim "0.9". And they told me "I am a veteran you just got NS today SUYF". That's nice. First off, don't ever use SUYF. SUYF=noob.
Rant over, back on topic... I wouldn't agree with this thread, really. WPs are invaluable. You have an overhead view of everything on the map, and therefore more intel. There is a huge difference between dropping someone a waypoint and baby sitting them. And I still don't know every place by name, and I've been playing for a bit now. It doesn't help much to say 'go XXXXXXX hive' if you don't know where XXXXXXX is. So you ask for a WP... oh dear God no! HOW DARE THEY! And let me guess, if you say 'Go XXXXXX hive' and 30 seconds later, some guy is still standing in base, you yell at him. Well, maybe you described where it is... he still has to find it on the map. The 5 seconds it takes for you to give him a WP is small compared to the 15 seconds it takes him to find the place, not to mention he'll be hindered as he's moving with the map screen open, limiting his sight...
locations. Or how about totally new designed maps, with such locations as The Overlook or West Junction?
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Waypoints are good stuff. It is arrogant to require that "every marine know the map, or else he/she is a n00b".
But the BEST reason to use waypoints is to teach marines in a consistent way about following your orders. If you give a waypoint once, and the marines follow it, then don't use waypoints for the rest of the game, you've just taught marines that "waypoints aren't that important. It's only a blue thing in your HUD that's gonna hang there the entire game anyway." No wonder we have many rambos -- they haven't been taught otherwise.
Use waypoints, and DEMAND that the marines follow them. That is Good And Specialized Communication™ for you. It will not only train your marines, but it also raises morale among marines. "We're a team, and we're gonna get some."
When the communication (remember, it's a two-way thing) picks up, you and the marines will know what is required, and the teamwork will be more fluent, but do not require this of a new player. It is unrealistic.
Besides, giving a WP in the comm interface is one of the least demanding tasks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines who need orders - Use your mic and teamchat to figure out whats going on! The comm does not have 15 seconds to spare to tell you where to go unless its through voice comm where he can speak while multi-tasking freely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree with you here too. To be a commander is to be the plan! You MUST communicate, and you MUST give orders. The marines do NOT know what you're up to unless. A marine without a task is a wasted resource. And remember, "stay and defend holo" is a task by itself.
They are NOT "n00b" players. They are asking to be a part of your plan and your team.
It must be common sense , however , that marines should go to their waypoint when the comm gives one. I so hate it when people roam around while I click furiously on the same spot... come on waypoints are meant to be intuitive. There is a visual indicator on the screen. There is a minimap with arrows on it , if people weren't able to follow arrows I wonder what kind of use the roads could have...
There is a large map that can be displayed , and to my knowledge any homo sapiens indivudual is naturally able to understand schematics and abstract drawings.
People who don't even know how to follow waypoints are worthless additions to the NS community...
I don't know if it was a lack of communication or just pure stupidity (I actually think the 2nd) but the other say we had 3 French players on an English speaking server, and one hopped in the comm chair. GFG from there on out. Wouldn't give any of the necessary stuff, but did tech to HA to supply his fellow french speakers while never dropping a single medpack. Rant over.
Anyways, yes people who don't follow WPs when you give them are... the devil. I seriously wish there was a way for the comm to prioritize respawning, just a nice simple way to reward those people who aren't totally stupid.
As soon as they leave base they would scatter with the wind, and there would be a slow trickle of bite kills
being displayed on the screen, as they respawned they would head off again, only to fall victim for skulks.
Eventually some unlucky **** would run into the first fade/onos.
And then the whining.
"Gimme HMG!!"
"Need HA"
"Guns commando!"
"I want a HMG!!"
"COMMANDER JPS!!"
"shotty plz com"
"me: sigh..."
[Strange sounds in marine base]
"W00t were did te armory go?+1"
"OMG NOOB COMM RECYCLED EJECT EJECT!!"
[~]
[quit]
These were occasional sights in 1.0x. Nowadays I have nothing else, save for the occasional HA rush that
turns into really, really expensive rambos with GL/HA, followed by rapid series of devour announcements,
topped off by aliens gloating at the stupidity of above mentioned rambos.
To make some kind of sense of my seemingly pointless rambling;
If you have a rine asking for WPs, you are really, really lucky. And, if he actually follows it, you might
consider buying a lottery ticket. Do not ignore the little guy with the fresh download, he might actually
turn into a decent Frontiersman, given a little bit of time. And a HMG.
Everytime I order people to goto station access in eclipse, they always go the wrong way.
What is it about station access?
On another note:
Call me an ****, but when the game is down to 1v9, I usually force my way into the commchair (people usually listen because I'm the top killer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->) and recycle the IPs and TFs. Leave the rest to the aliens.
*Rant*
I've seen the newbie problem in just about every mod. The problem is they are there for instant gratifcation and could care less about how you play the game until they realize its more than run and shoot. (I had this problem when I showed someone wolfenstien enemy territory.) Too many people just install the mod, and press quickstart and this really pisses off experienced players like myself. (I said experienced, not good, I know how to play, I didn't say I played well.) People need to learn to stop for a second, control their ADHD, read the manual (Yes people, READ, you know that thing where you look at words, what you used to do back in school, with those big heavy papery things called BOOKS.) (However NS 2.0 has no manual, bad! *Swats with rolled up newspaper.*) Then they should go spend about a half hour running around the maps that came with the game. You're not gonna be able to explore maps too well when someone who knows them like the back of their hand is repeatedly killing you. Also if the mod is a team based mod you are doing nothing more than wasting a space on your team. This will annoy many players (especially marine players in NS because of the marines REQUIRE teamwork to survive.) and is often the source of newbie hate. I have actually bound a key at one point in many mods to "Quit the freaking game, go read the manual then go learn the maps." because of this problem.
*End Rant*
I liked the fluff, but the manual was out of date and lacking in the facts. Thankfully I'm a patient man and learn quickly.
I exclusively play online games that demand or at least heavily suggest cooperation - ie UT's domination or assault modes.
Thus I like to think I settled in fairly quickly. I can't understand why some players insist on playing NS like every other game.
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Most new players seem to be fresh out of Kiddy-Strike. Most new players don't take the time to
read anything about the game, see 2 teams, and assume it's like CS. So they do what they do in
CS. Run out looking for frags, and promptly gets killed by the first skulk they run into.
After that, they figure they need better guns, and will look for a menu of sorts for gun purchasing.
Eventually they will be told that they can't buy guns, the commander deals out guns. They will then
proceed to either trying to get into commchair to buy stuff for self, or go into whine mode. I just love
it when a newbie asks for a colt...
Many newbies can stay in this state indefinitely, thinking that this is just a strange CS-like game with aliens and different guns. Others will eventually learn some basic things, like building and armory humping, possibly also phase gates. But their background in CS makes it impossible to learn the term 'teamwork'. Instead we have our familiar rambo, with all the character traits one dreads so much. They think kills matter (and the dev team just proved them right, thanks a lot...), res is always sufficient for yet another big gun, and the goal is to kill as many aliens as possible.
The really really horribly evil ones is the ones that have learnt how to get into the Commchair. They
will destroy every game they join, in their strange quest to figure out why they should not put 3 comm
chairs in base, or why everyone yells NEED IP.
[/semi-rant]
Still, it is our duty to put up with these people, and try to educate them in the art of NS.
Believe it or not, some of these old Kiddy-Strikers will actually turn into decent players.
And, after all, we were all newbies once.
The worst is when ur like xxx build the phase gate at base.. and they say NO... and rambo off.. it has happened to me countless times
Its REDICULOUS... commanders need an admin type slap button... or a vote eject teammate button
GOD IF I DROP A freaking BUILDING U BETTER GET UR freaking GOD DAMN **** TO BUILD IT!!!
Dont say NO.. gimme a shotty.. or NO HA/HMG.. cuz it wont work...
BUILD THE PHASE SO YOU CAN RESCUE THE BESIEGED TEAMMATES... NOT JUST SIT THERE AND STARE AT IT!!!
I liked the fluff, but the manual was out of date and lacking in the facts. Thankfully I'm a patient man and learn quickly.
I exclusively play online games that demand or at least heavily suggest cooperation - ie UT's domination or assault modes.
Thus I like to think I settled in fairly quickly. I can't understand why some players insist on playing NS like every other game.
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assault pwnz <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
did you try wolfenstein?
Okay our base was owned by an onos.Fine.We had just taken down vent hive(wow...it took nearly 5 minutes for the team to move there?).Only archiving was left and i wanted to relocate to it.Put a wp,annouced 3 times that our base was owned by an onos and we were relocating to the wp.In spite of all that information,only the clanner went there.The particulary stupid marine led all the other HAs back to the base,where they went up the lift and to the CC room,stared at the empty spot where the CC used to reside for nearly 10 seconds before asking "WTH?".At this point i told them no less than 10 times that the CC was at the wp and they should move there IMMEDIATELY before it got owned.The clanner got owned by OCs unfornately.The HAs proceeded to ignore everything i said and tried to hide behind the crates in cargo hold.F4ers ended the game.
The next map the particularly stupid marine still had the balls to insult my comming -.-.
But I still can't remember the damn locations, I'm learning anyway.
But give them the WP, and they should know next time where to go <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Patience <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Is it gone?
Okay our base was owned by an onos.Fine.We had just taken down vent hive(wow...it took nearly 5 minutes for the team to move there?).Only archiving was left and i wanted to relocate to it.Put a wp,annouced 3 times that our base was owned by an onos and we were relocating to the wp.In spite of all that information,only the clanner went there.The particulary stupid marine led all the other HAs back to the base,where they went up the lift and to the CC room,stared at the empty spot where the CC used to reside for nearly 10 seconds before asking "WTH?".At this point i told them no less than 10 times that the CC was at the wp and they should move there IMMEDIATELY before it got owned.The clanner got owned by OCs unfornately.The HAs proceeded to ignore everything i said and tried to hide behind the crates in cargo hold.F4ers ended the game.
The next map the particularly stupid marine still had the balls to insult my comming -.-. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*hugs u*, yeah man, theres so much bulshi-t with the noob marines these days, its ridiculous.
people are just stupid. in the end, games like battlefield 1942 win out because there are more stupid than smart people
in battlefield, the plane just respawns. The tank respawns. There it is. Touch it, its yours. Now kill someone.
In cs, same thing, buy or grab it. Kill someone.
Yeah, the mere word, "relocation" causes gears to stop in these noobs heads. Oh, how about handingn out some jetpacks and HMG's and saying GO THROUGH PUMPING STATION VENTS. If you are lucky to have a clanner or experienced pubber, you get one guy actually going through the vents. This has happened time and time and time again.
<b>The reasons why waypoints don't work?? </b>Because the map has twists and turns and they end up taking the wrong turn because they failed to memorize the map. Had they memorized the map, then waypoints are no longer needed. True, they can hit the c-key, but c-key navigation is probably not going to get you too far if you rely on it while trying to avoid skulks and lerks and fades along the way.
NOT because of the horror stories of horrible n00bs who destroy the team with their complete incompetence.
NOT because of the intense clamoring for waypoints / hmg / shotties / ha / gl that plagues a commander's life. I've been there (not often; I admit, I'm still quite inexperienced), and I know it stinks.
NOT because of the tales of ramboing marines, or marines who outright <i>*REFUSE*</i> to build anything and call for weapons instead (oh, trust me though, the thought of such rampant idiocy makes my blood boil), or the marines who take your equipment and go fertilize Station Access Alpha by way of an Onos' stomach.
No, I'm sad because it's driving more experienced players to virulent arrogance and nastiness.
In a "perfect" world, the world of Natural Selection the RTS, all of the Commander's marines would be AI controlled, and the Commander would be able to say "go defend Power Silo, squad 2; squad 1, go cap the double node and wait for them to be electrified, and move without arming at the armory" and the game's built-in speech-to-order translator would trigger perfect response in the marine AI, allowing for the ultimate in micromanagement and squad tactics.
But Natural Selection is not an RTS. It's an FPSS, or an RTSS, or whatever it's being called this day of the week. It's giving birth to a new genre, and the genre's got some issues to work out. No birth is ever pain-free, you know; otherwise there wouldn't be nearly as much demand for Morphine.
Do you know how many people are playing Counterstrike? Over <b>10,000</b>; I'd give you a more accurate count, but they're not holding still long enough for me to count them one by one. You know how many people are playing NS? AT LEAST an order of magnitude less; maybe closer to two orders. I want that to change.
And it's not going to change if people come flooding in with the newest patch, only to be told "Get out of here and learn the maps, and don't you <b>dare</b> call for orders or a waypoint; don't you <b>dare</b> waste your Commander's time with your utter incompetence." It's not going to change if the game suddenly ends because their Commander says "ah, **** it" and stabs his team in the back with a well-placed Recycle. New blood may be keeping this mod from being "excellent" -- but it's the only thing that will make it "legendary."
I am a Constellation member. I spend about an hour a night (when I don't have other commitments) playing NS . . . I've hyped it to all my friends, and I think I've even convinced a few to buy Half Life for the sole purpose of trying out NS. I don't want their newbie enthusiasm to be burnt out by the disrespect they receive from the community at large. If they stay and learn, the community gets stronger. If they leave . . . it doesn't.
I'm just proposing that we cut the newbies some slack; it won't kill anybody to lose a game or two, boiling blood aside. It's worth a little patience with the masses to see this game hit "legendary" status, don't you think?
I've been playing ns since ver 1.0 and i've been in two top10 clans previous of 2.0
I find it rather funny how so many people come to these forums to preach to their own choire. Its not like we don't get angered by newbies at times, but calling them that isn't some sort of big surprise, they likely know they are newbies.
Getting mad because people really just don't know what they are doing isn't worth it. If you want to only play 100% organized games, than join a clan and play scrims and matches. It can be lots of fun, but I still enjoy pubbing once in a while purely for the sake of the randomness and chaos that ensues because of the inexperience. I haven't clanplayed since 1.04, but the new ns is really great for any type of game, so it shouldn't be much a difference.