I think the question should be: 'Balance in 6vs6 (clan matches) or in 8vs8,9vs9,10vs10 (average pubs)?' btw, its funny that some people think in 1-2 years there are less newbies on the pub servers... Just look at TFC, this game is OLD but whenever I join a random pub server (not a public clan server) I see a lot of n00bs and kick **** hardcore, but I'm only an average clan player (or even worse)...
Unask the question. If you've balanced it for clanplay, past experience has told me that you've balanced it for pub play. I had about a 70/30% win/loss ratio in 2.0 pubplay as marine commander while marines won like .1% of games in clan play. That .1% has been bumped up to around 10-20% in clan play with 2.01b, and I think it's climbing as us mediocre clans get **** figured out; my pubplay win rate has risen accordingly.
They're both using the same implements and the same core strategies. Clanplay is just tighter, faster, and more intense.
If you want to have clans at all, both must be balanced. If the pubs aren't balanced, you won't get clans. If it's not balanced for the clan players, you won't keep those clans. You can't choose to balance only one kind of game style. Besides, what's pub balance? There is a lot of variation in game size and player competence.
The best thing to do would be to balance it for expert players, and allow graceful degradation for the less experienced players (so one minor mistake isn't a guaranteed game loss).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why have i never seen cofr look for scrims in #findnsscrim or in CAL <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CoFR isn't a clan, it is a community. I was refering to the various other clans I have been a member of (APA, corona, Inferno Online, Fatal). All CS clans though, best merits would be the #1 spot on the Swedish CB ladder. CoFR isn't about *competetive* gaming it is about *mature* gaming, not that one excludes the other.
Balance for Clanners. I see no reason to save newbs from their own craptacular playing at the expense of good quality balanced games between competent teams. It gives new players a goal of skill to try to attain.
I'm with the group of people that say just balance the game. Period.
The main difference between clan play and public play is the fact that clanners know what to do before the game starts and in pubs it's made up as the game progresses.
If the game is balanced overall then the strats used by clans will become norms in pub play, and as long as all strats have a good counter, then it will be very playable for clanners and pubs for a long time.
The question of balancing the game for Clanners vs Pubbers is a non issue.
You cannot balance pub play. Why?
As you have seen on the forums, many pubbers continually win as marines - thus leading them to the conclusion that marines are the stronger side in stock 2.0.
Many others have stated the contrary - that they see continual wins as aliens on pub servers. This leads these players to believe that aliens are the stronger side in stock 2.0.
So how are you going to balance the game on pubs when inexperienced players can throw off any balancing attempt?
Will you make the marines stronger? - in some pubs this will make marines dominate Will you make the aliens stronger? - again, in some (probably more) pubs this will make aliens dominate.
So to achieve balance we have to remove the crazy unpredictablity of 'new' or 'unskilled' players. This can be done on high-skill pubs where teams have the coordination and skill on par with clans. Also, this balancing can be done by balancing clan play.
In Summary: Regular pubs (ie. Not those popular ones like theLunixmonster or COFR) have far too many unpredictable players and teams to achieve balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--wlibaers+Aug 14 2003, 05:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wlibaers @ Aug 14 2003, 05:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want to have clans at all, both must be balanced. If the pubs aren't balanced, you won't get clans. If it's not balanced for the clan players, you won't keep those clans. You can't choose to balance only one kind of game style. Besides, what's pub balance? There is a lot of variation in game size and player competence.
The best thing to do would be to balance it for expert players, and allow graceful degradation for the less experienced players (so one minor mistake isn't a guaranteed game loss). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My original question was not who to balance for. It was who to balance for FIRST. Then the other gets balanced. All of these are great and informative responses. No real flames jumped out at me so good job guys.
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Aug 13 2003, 11:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 13 2003, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Public. I really detest the clanners with the "High and mighty" attitude. Making games fun and dandy for the elitists, and crap for the masses is suicide....No pubbers, no clanners, dead mod... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not all clanners are high and mighty acting. Some are more childish than others but are still tolerable. I am still unsure as to who to balance for first.
devicenullJoin Date: 2003-04-30Member: 15967Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Me, I would try to find a happy middle, If not, I'd say have tournamentmode change it, if its 0 then balance for pub, 1 balance for clan Probably clan play if I didnt have a choice
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Modern globalization, Coupled with condemnations, Unnecessary death, Matador corporations, Puppeting your frustrations, With the blinded flag, Manufacturing consent, Is the name of the game, The bottom line is money, Nobody gives a fluff<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oo.. CommunistWithAGun, are we playing "name that song"? If so "System of a Down - Steal This Album - Boom"
In my time playing both RTS and FPS games, I've learned one vital thing about balance. If your gonna balance a game to it's very best, you HAVE to balance it for the most skilled players. The lesser skilled or lesser experianced players will always take on the techniques and tricks of those more skilled and experianced. Anytime something works, it's human nature to try and copy it. Therefore, you have absolutely NO CHOICE but to balance it for the Elite players. If you balance it for the less skilled, it just creates even more balance issues that have to be dealt with later.
I'm a pubber, will always be a pubber. Skill aside, I was and always will be this way. Clanner or not, I observe and learn from those around me of what and what NOT to do. Quite frankly, I feel 90% of the woes pubbers suffer is just from slipshod playing from their teammates. Marines with unskilled and useless Rambos and bad commanders. Aliens who selfishly horde their RP's for Fade's instead of helping cap nodes. Most every bad game on a pub I've had I can point to a individual or a couple of individuals who destroyed the game for their team.
All this leads me to believe that balancing for pubbers is a useless waste of time. For pubbers and other less experianced peaple, you really need to focus on "fun factor" more to get them hooked. I personally believe this as that's what got me into the game. I felt the game was horribly balanced in favor of Aliens when I started just a few weeks ago. But the fun factor of the game kept me coming back. As I grow in skill and watch those around me, I see that the game isn't as unbalanced as I thought. I still have issues with certain maps, but that's a debate for another thread.
So hook them on the fun factor, because as they're having fun in the game playing it over and over, they will grow in skill. And when balance becomes an issue for them, they will find the game isn't as out of balance as they thought, because it's balanced to their newfound skill level.
Well put roach and welcome to the forums btw. I used to think it was horribly balanced to the aliens as well until I played marines with a good comm and team. We swept through the map and owned the aliens. It may have been that the alien team wasnt up to par in skill but they werent lacking in it either. Its still fun even losing to try to take out that fade or onos. But for the most part I play as aliens.
Clan vs. Pub is a meaningless distinction since you're working on a sliding scale of skill. You can get some crap clans out there, and you can get some awesome pub players out there. If the game is balanced, it's balanced. The only times this doesn't work are when there are entire categories of playing that unskilled players can't master, but that make the game balanced for skilled players (eg, bunnyhopping)
A much better distinction, especially for NS, is do we balance it for small games (6v6) or larger games? (8v8 + )
NS balanced for a small number of players may be widely imbalanced as the teams grow.
I'd say more towards the clanners, since they seem to be the more intelligent and dedicated of the bunch. Those two seem to go hand in hand.
The downside is, it's not easy to join a clan (or even start your own). I'm a dedicated player, but my skillz are lacking. I can hold my own if my team is supporting me, but I'm not uber-leet. More often than not, recruiters will pass me by without a second thought. :/
Comments
btw, its funny that some people think in 1-2 years there are less newbies on the pub servers... Just look at
TFC, this game is OLD but whenever I join a random pub server (not a public clan server) I see a lot of n00bs and kick **** hardcore, but I'm only an average clan player (or even worse)...
They're both using the same implements and the same core strategies. Clanplay is just tighter, faster, and more intense.
The best thing to do would be to balance it for expert players, and allow graceful degradation for the less experienced players (so one minor mistake isn't a guaranteed game loss).
CoFR isn't a clan, it is a community. I was refering to the various other clans I have been a member of (APA, corona, Inferno Online, Fatal). All CS clans though, best merits would be the #1 spot on the Swedish CB ladder. CoFR isn't about *competetive* gaming it is about *mature* gaming, not that one excludes the other.
The main difference between clan play and public play is the fact that clanners know what to do before the game starts and in pubs it's made up as the game progresses.
If the game is balanced overall then the strats used by clans will become norms in pub play, and as long as all strats have a good counter, then it will be very playable for clanners and pubs for a long time.
You cannot balance pub play. Why?
As you have seen on the forums, many pubbers continually win as marines - thus leading them to the conclusion that marines are the stronger side in stock 2.0.
Many others have stated the contrary - that they see continual wins as aliens on pub servers. This leads these players to believe that aliens are the stronger side in stock 2.0.
So how are you going to balance the game on pubs when inexperienced players can throw off any balancing attempt?
Will you make the marines stronger? - in some pubs this will make marines dominate
Will you make the aliens stronger? - again, in some (probably more) pubs this will make aliens dominate.
So to achieve balance we have to remove the crazy unpredictablity of 'new' or 'unskilled' players. This can be done on high-skill pubs where teams have the coordination and skill on par with clans. Also, this balancing can be done by balancing clan play.
In Summary: Regular pubs (ie. Not those popular ones like theLunixmonster or COFR) have far too many unpredictable players and teams to achieve balance.
The best thing to do would be to balance it for expert players, and allow graceful degradation for the less experienced players (so one minor mistake isn't a guaranteed game loss). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My original question was not who to balance for. It was who to balance for FIRST. Then the other gets balanced. All of these are great and informative responses. No real flames jumped out at me so good job guys.
Not all clanners are high and mighty acting. Some are more childish than others but are still tolerable. I am still unsure as to who to balance for first.
If not, I'd say have tournamentmode change it, if its 0 then balance for pub, 1 balance for clan
Probably clan play if I didnt have a choice
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Modern globalization,
Coupled with condemnations,
Unnecessary death,
Matador corporations,
Puppeting your frustrations,
With the blinded flag,
Manufacturing consent,
Is the name of the game,
The bottom line is money,
Nobody gives a fluff<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oo.. CommunistWithAGun, are we playing "name that song"?
If so "System of a Down - Steal This Album - Boom"
I'm a pubber, will always be a pubber. Skill aside, I was and always will be this way. Clanner or not, I observe and learn from those around me of what and what NOT to do. Quite frankly, I feel 90% of the woes pubbers suffer is just from slipshod playing from their teammates. Marines with unskilled and useless Rambos and bad commanders. Aliens who selfishly horde their RP's for Fade's instead of helping cap nodes. Most every bad game on a pub I've had I can point to a individual or a couple of individuals who destroyed the game for their team.
All this leads me to believe that balancing for pubbers is a useless waste of time. For pubbers and other less experianced peaple, you really need to focus on "fun factor" more to get them hooked. I personally believe this as that's what got me into the game. I felt the game was horribly balanced in favor of Aliens when I started just a few weeks ago. But the fun factor of the game kept me coming back. As I grow in skill and watch those around me, I see that the game isn't as unbalanced as I thought. I still have issues with certain maps, but that's a debate for another thread.
So hook them on the fun factor, because as they're having fun in the game playing it over and over, they will grow in skill. And when balance becomes an issue for them, they will find the game isn't as out of balance as they thought, because it's balanced to their newfound skill level.
Clan vs. Pub is a meaningless distinction since you're working on a sliding scale of skill. You can get some crap clans out there, and you can get some awesome pub players out there. If the game is balanced, it's balanced. The only times this doesn't work are when there are entire categories of playing that unskilled players can't master, but that make the game balanced for skilled players (eg, bunnyhopping)
A much better distinction, especially for NS, is do we balance it for small games (6v6) or larger games? (8v8 + )
NS balanced for a small number of players may be widely imbalanced as the teams grow.
The downside is, it's not easy to join a clan (or even start your own). I'm a dedicated player, but my skillz are lacking. I can hold my own if my team is supporting me, but I'm not uber-leet. More often than not, recruiters will pass me by without a second thought. :/
Or better yet, have 2 ballance modes! One for clan play, and other for pub play! There! Problem solved!