Why Redemption Is The Worst Onos Upgrade
Zek
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">It's very simple, really...</div> I find it amusing that people, primarily marine players, continue to complain about how overpowered redemption is(even after the 2.01a devour nerf). Let me tell you guys something, if redemption is overpowered then Regen and Cara are godlike, in the hands of an experienced Onos. I'll explain why, and I'm speaking from experience both as and against an Onos...
First of all, it should be obvious that Redemption Onoses are the most fragile. They have nothing to help them take more shots like regen and cara do, and on top of that they effectively lose a chunk of their HP because they redeem after it hits that point. Regen onoses get some reasonable extra defense as they regen 45 hp per tick while they're being shot at, and have practically nothing to fear from electricity and unguarded turret farms. Carapace Onoses can just take more damage, for obvious reasons. Thus, Redemption Onoses achieve the least amount of destruction in a given time period.
Now the obvious reason people take Redemption is for the survivability. Redemption Onoses never die, they say. Let's ignore for the moment the fact that they actually do die(lag, concentrated HMG/shotty fire, nades, mine traps), shall we? The fact is that redemption Onoses sacrifice a great deal of usefulness for this little perk; they are redeemed before they even reach a structure or marine on a regular basis, and after 2.1 they'll have to stay alive long enough to gore someone to death instead of just devouring one. Redemption allows the Onos to play like a moron and still not lose his res investment, but generally he won't be able to destroy anything if he isn't careful not to get shot. A couple L3 LMGs can easily redeem an Onos before it reaches them, throw in some turrets and/or better weapons and they don't stand a chance.
Once an Onos is redeemed, he's left sitting back at his hive with double digit HP. At that point he has to fully refill his HP; it's not uncommon at all for the alien team to leave no D chambers at a hive, so the onos will often have to do this at 20hp per tick. After this he has to run all the way back to the marines(hope he has celerity). That's at least a minute or two of downtime every time he redeems. Then he'll be redeemed in 2-3 seconds the next time he attacks the base, and has to go through the whole process again.
Now let's compare this to the regen Onos. When the regen Onos retreats, he only has to run a room or two away from the base; if he's pursued he can either run further or just stomp and kill the marines out of their base. Once he's healed(fairly fast, at 45hp per) he goes right back in and does it again. The cara onos obviously has longer downtime; IMHO it's only really worth if you you get some DCs outside the base.
And then there's the last remaining issue: "Regen and cara onoses can be killed, omg!". Well, there are a couple answers to that. The first one is simple; learn how to leave the base <i>before</i> you get killed. Knowing how much you can take while still having enough HP to make it away is a skill all aliens should have, and Onoses are no exception. You can never be too safe; set yourself an objective before going into the base(devour an HA, destroy a turret, whatever) and once you accomplish it run back out regardless of your HP. Remember that the less damage you take the faster you'll be able to go back in, so it never hurts to retreat early. Just because you're an onos doesn't mean you need to take all the bullets; even if you can't hide fully behind a structure like a skulk can, standing behind it and crouching while goring it will still block some bullets. How much damage you want to take before leaving is up to you, just try to leave some room for unexpected circumstances like a marine outside the base. If you're lucky and have 3 hives, just charge in, cause as much carnage as possible and speed out the door when the energy gets low. In the event that you do die, regen/cara onoses get more kills than redemption ones and if you've been playing well you should have had 100 res for some time already.
In summary, if a base is so extremely well defended that a regen Onos can't possibly survive in it, then a redemption Onos can't possibly stay in there long enough to destroy anything. Those of you Onoses who refuse to use anything but Redemption, try Regen for a change and maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised. Just remember that regen/cara onoses take brains and skill to play effectively, just like every other alien species. All you have to do is learn how to keep them alive and break the habit of suicide rushing, and you'll find they're basically superior.
That was really long. Hopefully I won't have to argue this in the other threads anymore <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
First of all, it should be obvious that Redemption Onoses are the most fragile. They have nothing to help them take more shots like regen and cara do, and on top of that they effectively lose a chunk of their HP because they redeem after it hits that point. Regen onoses get some reasonable extra defense as they regen 45 hp per tick while they're being shot at, and have practically nothing to fear from electricity and unguarded turret farms. Carapace Onoses can just take more damage, for obvious reasons. Thus, Redemption Onoses achieve the least amount of destruction in a given time period.
Now the obvious reason people take Redemption is for the survivability. Redemption Onoses never die, they say. Let's ignore for the moment the fact that they actually do die(lag, concentrated HMG/shotty fire, nades, mine traps), shall we? The fact is that redemption Onoses sacrifice a great deal of usefulness for this little perk; they are redeemed before they even reach a structure or marine on a regular basis, and after 2.1 they'll have to stay alive long enough to gore someone to death instead of just devouring one. Redemption allows the Onos to play like a moron and still not lose his res investment, but generally he won't be able to destroy anything if he isn't careful not to get shot. A couple L3 LMGs can easily redeem an Onos before it reaches them, throw in some turrets and/or better weapons and they don't stand a chance.
Once an Onos is redeemed, he's left sitting back at his hive with double digit HP. At that point he has to fully refill his HP; it's not uncommon at all for the alien team to leave no D chambers at a hive, so the onos will often have to do this at 20hp per tick. After this he has to run all the way back to the marines(hope he has celerity). That's at least a minute or two of downtime every time he redeems. Then he'll be redeemed in 2-3 seconds the next time he attacks the base, and has to go through the whole process again.
Now let's compare this to the regen Onos. When the regen Onos retreats, he only has to run a room or two away from the base; if he's pursued he can either run further or just stomp and kill the marines out of their base. Once he's healed(fairly fast, at 45hp per) he goes right back in and does it again. The cara onos obviously has longer downtime; IMHO it's only really worth if you you get some DCs outside the base.
And then there's the last remaining issue: "Regen and cara onoses can be killed, omg!". Well, there are a couple answers to that. The first one is simple; learn how to leave the base <i>before</i> you get killed. Knowing how much you can take while still having enough HP to make it away is a skill all aliens should have, and Onoses are no exception. You can never be too safe; set yourself an objective before going into the base(devour an HA, destroy a turret, whatever) and once you accomplish it run back out regardless of your HP. Remember that the less damage you take the faster you'll be able to go back in, so it never hurts to retreat early. Just because you're an onos doesn't mean you need to take all the bullets; even if you can't hide fully behind a structure like a skulk can, standing behind it and crouching while goring it will still block some bullets. How much damage you want to take before leaving is up to you, just try to leave some room for unexpected circumstances like a marine outside the base. If you're lucky and have 3 hives, just charge in, cause as much carnage as possible and speed out the door when the energy gets low. In the event that you do die, regen/cara onoses get more kills than redemption ones and if you've been playing well you should have had 100 res for some time already.
In summary, if a base is so extremely well defended that a regen Onos can't possibly survive in it, then a redemption Onos can't possibly stay in there long enough to destroy anything. Those of you Onoses who refuse to use anything but Redemption, try Regen for a change and maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised. Just remember that regen/cara onoses take brains and skill to play effectively, just like every other alien species. All you have to do is learn how to keep them alive and break the habit of suicide rushing, and you'll find they're basically superior.
That was really long. Hopefully I won't have to argue this in the other threads anymore <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
My problem was the redemption with a marine inside. Onii often have to go into situations you couldn't go with a real upgrade. With another good upgrade you'd have to try and take out turrets and generally help the team rather than getting annoying kills.
And no one wants to use teamwork since it's an exploit and a bannable offense, since exploits are bad. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And no one wants to use teamwork since it's an exploit and a bannable offense, since exploits are bad. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, regen onos is even a better rambo than a redempt onos could ever be.
The only real reason to get redempt onos *is* because of teamwork.
Basically, right before a charge, send in an onos with redempt, watch him take the fire as other aliens go in(preferably an onos w/regen), and he will disappear. It's basically wasted firepower that could have been used on other aliens, that's the real use for a redempting onos. Once the onos with redempt magically disappears, the other aliens will be close enough to rip the marine's a new a-hole.
Most of'em are more like zek described, kamikazes-in-a-rush: Running into a base going for the next thing they see (whis is not necessarily a strategically valuable structure, like a tf or pg) and desperately trying to take it down until their redemption-threshold kicks in and they redeem - usually without having accomplished much.
Redeeming Onos also make the best rush-stoppers for the same obvious reasons they make good quasi-suicide-rushers. They meet the rush soon after it exits the base, gore a HA to death and starts working on the next one, or kill 3 LA, before getting pulled back to the hive. He heals up, and runs back to the marines, and dispatches another few, or hopefully, catches them when they think they're safe and start trying to set up a forward TF. He, unlike a Cara Onos or Regen Onos, doesn't have to meet the rush, kill someone, THEN BACK OFF IN THE SAME DIRECTION THE MARINES ARE TRYING TO PUSH. That's just ASKING to die if you only have Cara or Regen. It's what people in the military might call a total rout. Your position is overrun, you're desperately trying to get away through a disorganized retreat, and by the time you get back to a wall of DCs or the hive or an abandoned room, you've had the marines behind you chasing you with total impunity. Turn around and you're going to die no matter how fast you heal or how much damage you can soak, and often times, those marines KNOW that if they all chase your big rhino self down and keep shooting, you're a gonner. Assuming the push gets all the way to the hive, your Cara or Regen Onos are pretty much in the same boat as the Redemp Onos, that being that they have nowhere left to go. They all die the same.
Also, don't give people this stupid OMG REDEEM ONOS THINK THEY ARE IMMUNE TO TEAMWORK BS, any species of Onos, even a vanilla Onos FFS, is a force of nature with Lerk and Gorge support. The Redemption Onos isn't any worse for the team in group encounters either, since as described above, they are the first target the marines go for. By the time he redeems, any and all of the smart alien teammates should have been killing all the LA marines they can wrap their jaws around. I can't count how many times on both the alien team and marine team I've seen offensives turn into total failures because the whole team has been poking the TF, instead of killing the soldiers or PG first, or because all the HA were shooting the hive instead of welding each other. It never changes. However, since we're speaking entirely in hypotheticals here, a good team can make fine use of a redeeming Onos, and because he redeems, the team can get the same milage or more out of him than the team can with only a Cara or Regen Onos. Plus, Redemp Onos don't HAVE to wait for the whole team to go on the offensive. They can rambo anywhere the marines hold, but aren't defending, and expect to do massive damage and distract the whole marine team in the process. One of the best things you can do as a redemp Onos is wait for the marines to group up for some push somewhere, and attack their RTs, TFs, base, and other interests while your team meets them in the first wave. Redeem back to base eventually after taking down fortifications, heal, rush thirty meters out of base, and mop up the marine group.
Regardless of the presumed viability of any particular trait, keep in mind that you might just not have any idea how to use said trait correctly. It's all I'm saying. IMO, if you can use Cara or Regen and still keep pace with that endlessly attacking redemption Onos, be my guest. Don't whine and moan if you die during a badly planned rush of course. When or even<b> IF </b>I pay a full bar of my personal res to become a walking tank, I want to get all the milage I can out of it.
Well, zek's point is (And i totally agree with him) that a redemption onos won't be able to deal ANY sort of damage against a well-organized marine team, since he is redeemed pretty much instantly as soon as he confronts an outpost or group.
I personally prefer carapace onos, since much of the time on the server I play at (tacticalgamer), if i ask for forward D chambers, someone will be generous enough to supply them. With enough D chambers, i can pretty much raze so much more each run than i could ever hope as a redemption onos.
It's not JUST staying alive, and protecting your investment, it's being EFFECTIVE while you're alive...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, don't give people this stupid OMG REDEEM ONOS THINK THEY ARE IMMUNE TO TEAMWORK BS, any species of Onos, even a vanilla Onos FFS, is a force of nature with Lerk and Gorge support. The Redemption Onos isn't any worse for the team in group encounters either, since as described above, they are the first target the marines go for. By the time he redeems, any and all of the smart alien teammates should have been killing all the LA marines they can wrap their jaws around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has not been my experience... redemption kicks in far before the onos can do any sort of substantial damage, unless it's such a weakly defended outpost that even a gorge/skulk combo could take it out. Redemption onos are somewhat bad for the team, since once he redeems, his partners in crime will be stuck without their large meat shield, and can either try to beat a hasty retreat or get shot down by the marine firepower present. So you do save your 100 res, but your teammates stand a good chance of losing their evolutions.
and today i saw the proper punishment for all those redemption onos <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for running away being dangerous, that's why I said Regen/Cara takes skill... You have to know when to run so that you don't get shot dead on the way out, as well as how to attack to minimize the damage you take. Once you learn how not to get yourself killed with regen/cara(and I assure you that the "investment" is very secure, if you know what you're doing), the payoff is enormous.
As for the point that everyone keeps making that a single redemption Onos can't do too much damage and that a group of marines can at least drive it away or cause it to redeem........ Yes, a group of marines can drive off or redeem an Onos, but it takes A GROUP. Imagine a 10 vs 10 game. One Onos in the beginning takes 3 marines out of action to deal with. Since this Onos will continually redeem, every few minutes those 3 marines are forced to deal with the Onos again (and again and again and so on). Since that Onos doesn't have to re-evolve he tops off at 100 res. Soon, more alien players will reach the 100 res mark and go Onos. So for each new Onos, it will take another 3 players to deal with each Onos. Soon, almost all the marines are forced to deal with the never ending supply of Onii. Then the rest of the alien team is free to roam the map. While the marines are stuck dealing with the Onos problem, the rest of the alien team slowly gains control of the rest of the map. Additional hives go up and all the RTs are taken by the alien team. And then, the dreaded, drawn out end game of turret farms and grenade launchers begins......................
and goes on................................
an on..........................
Well, you get the point.
Perhaps this is the only true Onos defense.....
I 'died' and survived 17 times in a row!!! and got 14 devour kills with 10 of them HA w00t!
(plus a few charge kills)
redemption + clerity = onos ownage.
ps: your right not overpowered at all <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
One of these days i plan on becoming more than a 2.0n00b then ill do sum serious damage with onos + redemption till then im limited to not dieing and costing rines hundreds of res.
Redemption is to protect your investment and harass marines without needing to "run away". Do as much damage, get redeemed, head back, repeat.
Regeneration is for those long seiges on turret farms or when you'll be away from the hive for a long time. it can also extend a alien's players life time in one form for a nearly infinate amount of time; providing atleast 1 DC is up, they can always regenerate.
Carapace is for assualt against bases or outposts and to make you tougher to kill and last longer, though, without DCs or gorges heal spraying you, you'll not last long...
With a skilled alien player:
Regen = Carapace > Redemption
Without a skilled alien player:
Carapace = Redemption > Regeneration
thats the way i see it, anyways.
The problem is that you and he assume that the marines will be everywhere at once. The point with a redemption onos is not to charge a HA welder train and expect to do significant damage, but rather to damage something somewhere that is not necessarily redeem-onos proof and force the marines to react. As soon as he is redeemed, you can bet he'll be hitting somewhere else in less than a minute (Assuming DCs at the hive, which should be the case if the aliens are decent.)
Even in the case of a HA welder train, the redeem onos might be in a better standpoint because he might be able to gore/eat one marine before being instantly teleported to the safety of the hive, whereas a regen/cara onos will have to run away, more often than not in the direction the marines are pushing, like Swift Idiot said. Very very risky, and hardly better than redeeming.
The redeeming onos is a powerful harrassment tool that cannot be ignored, he's too powerful for that. Several can drive almost anyone but the most organized crazy.
I ran some numbers against turrets and on average, a redemption Onos will redeem at 157 hp and 76 armor. That's 19 shots with a level 3 HMG to force a redeem (28 shots will kill it). That's just over a second of HMG fire. Multiple marines firing on the Onos will just increase the chance that redemption won't kick in in time.
Now, a hive heals 20 hp/sec. On average, you're looking at 22 seconds of healing followed by a run back to where you were. Some maps are worse then others. Eclipse is a very Onos friendly map with lots of ramps and pretty wide halls. Mineshaft is a nightmare for Onos. Even with celerity on a good map, you're looking at a 40 second run. So best case scenario is a minute in between fights. Worst case, 2 minutes if you have to use lifts or tight ladders on larger maps.
Compare that to regeneration. Regen averages what? 15 hp/sec? (45 hp every three seconds I think) Using the average redeem HP as a base, it takes 30 seconds to regen the HP/armor back. 8 more seconds of healing saves you 40+ seconds of running.
The twist? You have to be able to run away. Regeneration isn't the vaunted "godmode" (neither is redemption). It's efficency. Zek makes an excellent point about setting goals. Run in, destroy a turret, run out. It doesn't matter if you <i>could</i> take more. Get out and heal up. Then do it again. See a HA? Stomp, devour/gore, get out. Don't get greedy. If you have lots of gorge/DC support, carapace would probably be a better choice, but you don't see too much of that.
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Who cares? As much as it irritates marines not to get the satisfaction of a kill, the onos actually is not very effective especially considering its cost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the point that everyone keeps making that a single redemption Onos can't do too much damage and that a group of marines can at least drive it away or cause it to redeem........ Yes, a group of marines can drive off or redeem an Onos, but it takes A GROUP. Imagine a 10 vs 10 game. One Onos in the beginning takes 3 marines out of action to deal with. Since this Onos will continually redeem, every few minutes those 3 marines are forced to deal with the Onos again (and again and again and so on). Since that Onos doesn't have to re-evolve he tops off at 100 res. Soon, more alien players will reach the 100 res mark and go Onos. So for each new Onos, it will take another 3 players to deal with each Onos. Soon, almost all the marines are forced to deal with the never ending supply of Onii. Then the rest of the alien team is free to roam the map. While the marines are stuck dealing with the Onos problem, the rest of the alien team slowly gains control of the rest of the map. Additional hives go up and all the RTs are taken by the alien team. And then, the dreaded, drawn out end game of turret farms and grenade launchers begins......................
and goes on................................
an on..........................
Well, you get the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the point is that you feel that a single stock marine should be able to take out a 100 res Onos, then yes, I do. And it doesn't make any sense. Devoting a couple marines to base defense is standard procedure. And trust me, your base would be in much more trouble if all of these onoses had regen; they still mostly wouldn't die, but they'd be attacking you much more often and to much greater effect. If you want to gripe about Onos so be it, but understand that redemption ones are a poor example of their power.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just played a game as redemption onos.
I 'died' and survived 17 times in a row!!! and got 14 devour kills with 10 of them HA w00t!
(plus a few charge kills)
redemption + clerity = onos ownage.
ps: your right not overpowered at all<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A skilled Onos with regen/cara could do that easily. Besides, come 2.1 the devour trick won't work anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that you and he assume that the marines will be everywhere at once. The point with a redemption onos is not to charge a HA welder train and expect to do significant damage, but rather to damage something somewhere that is not necessarily redeem-onos proof and force the marines to react. As soon as he is redeemed, you can bet he'll be hitting somewhere else in less than a minute (Assuming DCs at the hive, which should be the case if the aliens are decent.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? I'm not following you. There is no such thing as "not redeem-onos proof".. If a redemption onos can take something down by himself then any other kind of Onos could do it better. As for hitting somewhere else, a regen Onos could just leave the first area and run to the second, getting his HP back on the way and probably getting there earlier than redemption Onos(unless this other area is real close to a hive)... And either way once the Onos leaves/disappears it's not very likely that the marine team is still going to come from across the map to get there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in the case of a HA welder train, the redeem onos might be in a better standpoint because he might be able to gore/eat one marine before being instantly teleported to the safety of the hive, whereas a regen/cara onos will have to run away, more often than not in the direction the marines are pushing, like Swift Idiot said. Very very risky, and hardly better than redeeming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the regen/cara onos plays intelligently he won't put himself in a situation where the odds of getting away safely are slim. If a redemption Onos can stay alive long enough to kill an HA in the train(remember that devour will not be an option soon), a regen/cara one played intelligently will be able to do the same and get away. I don't know how to explain this to you guys; it's all in the skill level. An Onos who doesn't know how to keep himself alive will not do well with anything but redemption, but he certainly won't learn that way either and that's what we're seeing now.
Look, I'm not trying to say anything for game balance; I'm just talking about onos D upgrades here. In the vast majority of situations, a skilled regen Onos is basically superior to a redemption one. If you guys can think of a situation where redemption is actually the superior choice I would be more than happy to hear it. The only point I'm trying to make is that calling Onos redemption overpowered is insane when redemption onoses are easily the least effective type of Onos if the player knows what he's doing. I'm not trying to brag or anything, I just think the common misconception that redemption is the most effective Onos upgrade needs to be cleared up, because in the hands of a skilled player anyone can see it's the opposite.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in the case of a HA welder train, the redeem onos might be in a better standpoint because he might be able to gore/eat one marine before being instantly teleported to the safety of the hive, whereas a regen/cara onos will have to run away, more often than not in the direction the marines are pushing, like Swift Idiot said. Very very risky, and hardly better than redeeming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this will be taken out in the next patch. It's not finalized or anything, so maybe not. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
regen onos are more effective against low upgrades and un-manned turret farms than the other two, and are more self-sufficient.
cara onos are more effective against high upgrades and HA trains, and are best at hive guarding.
redemption onos are only effective against low upgrades, and during then regen > redemption. At high upgrades and against shotties, they crumple fast.
1. Allows you to stay in there longer and i've noticed take at least 2 tower which is better then redemption onos which runs in whacks them and then has to pull a harry houdine
2. Allows you to be a better sponge for your gorges to bile bomb the turrents they will take them out better then you ever can.
But personally my all time fav strategy as an onos is to get cara + clerity + cloaking and get some lerk support people you dont value umbra enough its freaking great support for onos you can take 3 HA pretty easy you stomp devour one and gore the other one to death while in umbra and the few shots they can get off do squat quite nice in my books <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Onos with these upgrades, from most important to least important:
Regen(nessesary to do this)
Adren(nessesary to do this)
Scent of Fear
Basically, you own all marine groups that are less than 5, dispite their upgrades in most instances.
Why? Run in, take some abuse, stomp, gore a little, stomp, gore, stomp, kill, if your health is getting low run out, otherwise keep on fighting, with plenty of stomps. The reason this works? Providing your stomps don't miss, you can regen most of the damage they deal to you, making you an invincible tank.
And no one wants to use teamwork since it's an exploit and a bannable offense, since exploits are bad. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, regen onos is even a better rambo than a redempt onos could ever be.
The only real reason to get redempt onos *is* because of teamwork.
Basically, right before a charge, send in an onos with redempt, watch him take the fire as other aliens go in(preferably an onos w/regen), and he will disappear. It's basically wasted firepower that could have been used on other aliens, that's the real use for a redempting onos. Once the onos with redempt magically disappears, the other aliens will be close enough to rip the marine's a new a-hole. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems to me you'd benefit more if that Onos had regen- making him last longer and take more hits. Who cares about res in this situation? A redeem Onos will barely deal any damage and isn't much of a tank- and usually when everyone is attacking together you want everyone to be at their full capacity. Redeem basically sacrifices usefulness for res, and in most situations I'd prefer regen or carapace.
-JohnnySmash
And no one wants to use teamwork since it's an exploit and a bannable offense, since exploits are bad. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, regen onos is even a better rambo than a redempt onos could ever be.
The only real reason to get redempt onos *is* because of teamwork.
Basically, right before a charge, send in an onos with redempt, watch him take the fire as other aliens go in(preferably an onos w/regen), and he will disappear. It's basically wasted firepower that could have been used on other aliens, that's the real use for a redempting onos. Once the onos with redempt magically disappears, the other aliens will be close enough to rip the marine's a new a-hole. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems to me you'd benefit more if that Onos had regen- making him last longer and take more hits. Who cares about res in this situation? A redeem Onos will barely deal any damage and isn't much of a tank- and usually when everyone is attacking together you want everyone to be at their full capacity. Redeem basically sacrifices usefulness for res, and in most situations I'd prefer regen or carapace.
-JohnnySmash <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the idea is that the marine's have such huge upgrades and such good aim that one onos is doomed to die, so a redeem onos is perfect for taking the hit.
Don't forget that regen stacks with other D chambers.
As for the point that everyone keeps making that a single redemption Onos can't do too much damage and that a group of marines can at least drive it away or cause it to redeem........ Yes, a group of marines can drive off or redeem an Onos, but it takes A GROUP. Imagine a 10 vs 10 game. One Onos in the beginning takes 3 marines out of action to deal with. Since this Onos will continually redeem, every few minutes those 3 marines are forced to deal with the Onos again (and again and again and so on). Since that Onos doesn't have to re-evolve he tops off at 100 res. Soon, more alien players will reach the 100 res mark and go Onos. So for each new Onos, it will take another 3 players to deal with each Onos. Soon, almost all the marines are forced to deal with the never ending supply of Onii. Then the rest of the alien team is free to roam the map. While the marines are stuck dealing with the Onos problem, the rest of the alien team slowly gains control of the rest of the map. Additional hives go up and all the RTs are taken by the alien team. And then, the dreaded, drawn out end game of turret farms and grenade launchers begins......................
and goes on................................
an on..........................
Well, you get the point.
Perhaps this is the only true Onos defense..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Using your example a cara/regen onos could take on say 5 marines over and over. With 2 onos you've won.
during a PCW on ns_nothing 3 onos rushed our non-relocated base, we forced them all to redemp back to their hive, this happend 2/3 times (this is 2.0 FYI)
i think they should be within a certain range of a hive to use redempion (although this'll probably make it useless so nm), because seeing newbies redemp over and over and over and over and over just gets plain annoying
but i do agree, redempion isn't the best choice for a skilled onos