A Discussion On Fades

pieceofsoap · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Metabolize, Acid Rocket, and HA SG</div> In 2.0x, fades are adept at Hit and Run tactics. They can pop up inside a light armor squad, wreak havok, and dissapear in the before the marines have a chance to react. Fades are no longer the tanks they were in 1.0x, and so must be used with care. One thing that I find counter-intuitive, is that the standard upgrade for hit and run, Regeneration, is relatively useless for such a hit and run class. Why is this?

I had suspicions that Metabolize and Regen didnt work well together. I confirmed these suspicions with a stopwatch, by reducing a fade to minimal health (via Acid Rocket) and then restoring it to full health, via Metabolize, Regen, and a combination of the two. Here are the Results:

Metabolize Only: 25 Seconds*
Regen Only: 30 Seconds
Metabolize AND Regen: 25 Seconds*

*This fade had Adrenaline, so this is the shortest possible time with Metabolize

Clearly, Regeneration and Metabolize do not stack. If they did, it would take about 15 seconds to fully restore a fade, if it has room to breathe.

Once HA comes around, fades are in trouble.

Fade 50 res
HA Shotty Welder 35 res

HA HMG is the natural counter to the fade, able to end a fully carapaced fade, at weapon level 0, in a mere 28 shots, 14 shots if the HMG is level 3 and the fade doesnt have carapace. I am not complaining about this, it is the way things are meant to be. What becomes an issue, is HA and Shotgun. What is the counter to HA SG? I really dont know. For the price of 1 onos, 3 HA SG marines can be produced. If they work together, my money is on the marines. The shotgun is the marines Melee weapon, and at point blank, it is roughly twice as powerful as a fades swipe. It is a low tech weapon, that in the hands of a Light marine, is countered by Lerks. In the hands of HA, lerks are suddenly useless, as spores are useless, and spikes are almost harmless. Onii are a pricy investment, costing 3 times as much as HA Shotgun, and forced to engage them in melee. The shotgun is countered by ranged weapons, so here is a breakdown of Kharaa Ranged weapons, and their usefulness against HA SG.

Hive 0:
Spikes = mostly harmless vs HA.
Spit = A gamble vs Light armor.

Hive 1:
Parasite = 15 shots to kill a light armor, 50 shots minimum vs HA
Spores = Entirely useless vs HA

Hive 2:
Bilebomb = A great way for nub gorges to die
Umbra = Res for Res, a risky proposition. Requires a second Alien, so assume a second HA SG.
Stomp = The Onos's best shot, currently the best counter, res for res, assume 3 HA SG

Hive 3:
Web = A strong attack, requires backup
Acid Rocket = In my opinion, this is the best solution to the issue. See below.

It is very infrequent that you encounter Top Tier technology marines vs Top Tier technology Kharaa.
I find that the battles are usually top tier Marines vs Hive 2 Kharaa. The fade is a good counter for Jetpacks late in the game, however I find that this is due more to blink than Acid rocket.

I propose that EITHER Acid rocket be moved to Hive 2, to better combat HA SG, Or that Metabolize be allowed to stack with Regen.

I have heard that in the playtests, Acid rocket has been used to great effect in defending a hive, But now that it is hive 3, that really isnt necessary, as that is usually when the fight has usually been taken to the marines.

/me apolagizes for lack of coherence
On another note, <3 2.0!

Rat · August 2003

A very well researched and thought out post. Truly did enjoy it. I'm rather surprised by the lack of stacking between metabolize and regen, and I'd be interested to test the same w/ metabolize and a dchamber or two. I generally find redemption useless for fades/onii as they redeem before a significant amount of damage is done by them. Carapace I do enjoy, but for the hit and run lerks or fades, regeneration should be the upgrade of choice, and the lack of stacking means the fade might as well go back to the hive for as long as it takes to get fully healed using both. I honestly think acid rocket should be moved up a hive as well, and thought this even before this post. Acid Rocket is a good counter to many things as long as it isn't the end-all killer that it was in 1.0x If it is kept in its current state, I think fades may start having a chance against an HA/shotty at range, or at least do enough damage to slow them down and let other kharaa get there.

ZiGGY · August 2003

People Cant Weld & Shoot. Spikes Followed By Whatever You Can Muster Followed By Spikes.

mousiehamster · August 2003

At first, I thought the FADE was uber. I am usually the first Fade in my team. I thought fades were super coz I was killin' alot of marines. Hell, I wasn't even usin' BLINK, I just hit in corners and ambushed whenever a lone marine came by and took 'em out in 2 swipes. The rines didn't even have time to react (Mabye coz they're inexperienced - was using fade in a pubbie server). Then I realised I could probably do the same with a skulk...

After a while, I came across a pack of marines. They decimated me. From that day on, I stopped evolving to fade and went for lerk instead. I've been supportin' my teammate alot more with the lerk.

Is it just me, or do the FADES really suck against a pack of lmg marines?

RaVe · August 2003

Metabolize can stack with regen,but it requires very careful timing

As for HA vs Fade,well....you aren't supposed to rush them in the first place.Blink along ceilings if you are in a large room and attack from the back.If all else fails,when you respawn just rush them with a couple of parasites and tag them.Then tell your teammates that there's an HA train marked on hivesight so they can obliterate it.

Or if you have 3 hives you could just use Xenocide <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

As for acid rockets....well Fades were supposed to be for hit and run so it was toned down a bit to fit the theme,plus having an acid rocket shot, blinking towards your target and ending them with a swipe is a very powerful tactic,could work against lone HAs.

But when you get HA trains....either get Onos or the whole team to work as a team or risk losing the whole game

Ayatollah · August 2003

If you can dodge alot, regen becomes a lot more feasible (but very risky)

If you can avoid being hit, you have a lot longer lifespan assaulting a group of marines. Its easier to do this as an onos when you can just tromp bases and regen huge clumps of HP - but its doable with fades too, picking a few spots in marine base where you can hide for cover (behind res nozzles, ccs, other buildings, etc) and just alternate blinking between these spots and wreaking havoc.

So you regenerate health, leave your energy for blink, and keep an entire marine team occupied. Doesn't work all the time. Or often.

-Aya

ps use celerity

Sligh · August 2003

Res for res, it does seem as if the aliens get shafted. A pack of fully upgraded fades against an equal number of HA/SG will most likely get slaughtered, but i say that's just as well. In just about every game i've played, within 5 minutes of the round beginning, i'd be surprised if the aliens didn't have AT LEAST 3 more res towers than the marines did. The marines are constrained early in the game, and the res flows easier for the aliens. Therefore you have more advanced lifeforms fighting weaker marines earlier on.

I say if the marines can hold off the aliens for long enough to attain enough for a train of HA/SG, then they DESERVE to stomp all over the aliens. The aliens failed to do their job, and should have to pay more res for a generally equal lifeform. Just my 2 cents.

Warfare · August 2003

Once marines have L3 weapons Fades can almost wave goodbye to their precious lives if they meet a light marine with an LMG.
Usually, they put me down to 140. If I use Celerity and move a bit too fast, and dependant on if they have armor upgrades or not, sometimes 40.
When fighting packs, I usually blink behind them (only tap once) and claw them down to their ribs.

Usually after a lerk has thrown in a few clouds.
To me, fades aren't tanks. They're advanced skulks. Instead of wallclimbing and leap they have blink, which takes you wherever a skulk can go (vents and stuff, not counting rooftops and walls), but they have alot more health, meaning you can deal alot more damage before you blink away.

I also never get Regenration. Carapace is more vital for me. I'll gladly sacrifice 5 seconds for some damage reduction.
However, if I want to go real fast, I choose Regenration combined with my usual Celerity.

And I agree with Sligh.

EnemyWithin · August 2003

Fades aren't tanks, so attacking a group of marines that can aim equals a dead Fade with regen or carapace. But if you are trying to solo attack an outpost with a phase gate, then regen can be very effective. You can attack the loan marine in there and then attack the phase gate. You will be taking damage from marines that phase thru (and some turrets), but you will also be healing in the process. Many times I have found regen to be more effective in these situations, as the marines can only come thru one at a time.

IMO, the ability to passively heal while attacking a structure > extra damage absorption. It really all comes down to how you play Fade.

pieceofsoap · August 2003

The problem with the fade is that it tends to lose its usefullness late game. Early and midway through the game, I can annhilate whole squads of marine with fade, but later on, the fade simply doesnt have much of a purpose. The most prominent point, is that with each hive, each evolution is supposed to gain a new area of usefulness. For example:

Skulks:
Hive 2: Skulks can now leap, which allows them to use more confrontational tactics, for when ambushing isnt an option.
Hive 3: Skulks can now xenocide, a threat to even HA trains.

Gorges:
Hive 2: Gorge becomes siege unit
Hive 3: Gorge gains powerful defensive abilities

Lerks
Hive 2: Lerk becomes siege unit
Hive 3: Lerk gains combat bonus

Fades:
Hive 2: Now in hit and run tactics, fade doesnt need to blink back to a hive or D chamber installation to regain HP. Note that blinking to a hive or D station is often faster than using metabolize
Hive 3: Fade becomes effective ranged unit

Onos:
Hive 2: Onos can now incapacitate large amounts of enemies
Hive 3: Onos Siege capabilities increased

Is it just me, or does Metabolize do a poor job of adding new functionality to the Fade?

SlothropX · August 2003

Yeah, I have been vastly disappointed by the 2.0 fade as well.

Swipes: nice against LA targets, but then what isn't? Skulks can do about as well, and their lower health is offset by their higher speed and smaller hitbox.

Blink: the added mobility that keeps 1-hive skulks from totally outclassing 1-hive fades. It is hard to use effectively with the fast-switch restrictions, which can often leave you stalled or weaponless. Also, why doesn't a blinking fade have reduced visibility and a chance to have bullets pass through? They're supposed to be teleporting, not running/jumping kind of fast.

Metabolize: The nice thing is that it lets you get something other than regeneration for your defensive upgrade. The bad thing is that, at two hives, the improvement is nominal. A fade is still restricted to ambushing LA/LMG targets, giving him carapace+metabolize makes him better at this task but it doesn't allow him to do anything more important, like pose a serious threat to the shotties and HAs that will begin emerging at this tech level.

Acid Rocket: Finally. Everyone's favorite energy-gulping ranged attack. AR are still as handy as ever for taking out bases, but their huge energy cost makes it difficult to engage more than a few (free) LMG marines, much less HA/HMG rines. Unless the shotgun is getting switched over to a four-round capacity, AR should probably be either cheapened a little or brought back down to tier 2.

I think that the current propensity for victorious 3 hive alien teams to take a very long time finishing off a fortified marine base w/ a single resource node is really a good demonstration as to why AR should go back down to a 2-hive ability. In 1.04, the game often ended at two hives since AR was so effective at clearing marine bases. In 2.0, a focused team of 3-hive aliens struggle at accomplishing the same goal, with AR pretty well trumped by Ono and Lerk abilities. AR is clearly not a game-ending ability anymore, and fades would have far more of a purpose were this ability available at two hives.

TickTock · August 2003

The way I see it, Fades have a very small window of opportunity. Fades are a 50 res cost, not cheap, and before they have 3 hives they are an exclusively melee unit. A fade is very valuable if you can get one very early, before the marines have teched up and handed out too many weapons. Then he can blink in, cut some marines up, and blink out. Once the marines acquire L2 weapons and use heavier weapons like shotties and hmg's on a regular basis, the Fade is definitely not worth 50 res. You can get almost the same benefit out of a skulk for free. If I save for FAde and evolve early, then yeah, I think Fade is worthwhile. But in the mid-late game, it's worth far more to wait for Onos, drop some chambers, or support with the lerk.

As far as metabolize goes, it does have some advantages, but since it doesn't help the fade deal with its biggest threat, heavy weapons, I don't find it terribly useful given it's 2nd hive placement.

TickTock · August 2003

I sometimes wonder, what if AR was moved to 2nd hive and didn't damage buildings?

SlothropX · August 2003

Then aliens would have almost zero chance of dealing with entrenched marines.

It already does pretty light damage to structures. Lighten it a bit more and put it at tier-2, maybe, but utterly neutering it versus structures would be devastating.

EnemyWithin · August 2003

Everyone is talking about the Fade's melee abilities, but is failing to consider their early game significance as the first solo electrified RT killer. When I go early fade (2nd hive going up, but not completed), I ignore the marines initially and just go around and take out all the electrified RT's. If you don't have DC's for regen, then just blink back and forth from the hive (or gorge) and the RT's. One effective early fade can really cripple a marine team.

Eplekongen · August 2003

You should remember that the aliens and marines have different ways of getting their RT's and defending them. The Alien RT is cheeper, 15 res against 20 res for the marines. And the aliens can easier get to attecked RT's and dropping only one oc for 10 res will give the rt as much defence and a 30 res eletric upgrade (pluss eletric upgrade research res cost.)

This gives the aliens more res, and the aliens should have to use more res, the marines less res and the marines need to use less.

Narfwak · August 2003

While I do agree with Eple in that the aliens generally do have more resources available to them and are therefore able to spend lots of cash at a time, I also have to agree with soap; Fades are not as universally useful as the other alien classes throughout the entire game. It is my own personal experience that the fade is more of a super-charged skulk (good at ambushing marines, hit-and-run, not good against groups). This is reinforced by a skulk's ability to quickly get a few kills in the early game, use the res from those kills to go fade, then continue to use the same tactics until they are killed as a Fade. By that time, Fades are most likely not viable, as the marines have either developed tech to counter them (HA) or the aliens have nearly won (Onos, other classes would be much more effective).

I don't really have any new suggestions of my own, although I do endorse pieceofsoap's suggestions.

Umbraed_Monkey · August 2003

Im pretty sure the passive regen doesnt kick in unless you are not attacking. What this means is, if you are using metabolise (thus +attack), the regen wont start, and thus the same as just metablising.

Typhon · August 2003

I think if metabolize was changed back to one of its previous functions (Didn't it greatly reduce the damage you took for a few seconds at some point in the 2.0 betas?) it would become more useful in the mid game as the fade would then be able to blink in, hit metabolize, and then be able to take a couple more shotty rounds, or a few more seconds of HMG fire before having to flee. This would make it a real counter to heavy weapons, dramatically differentiate it from skulks, and give it a niche purpose in the endgame.

AR at hive two would bring us back to 1.04 where it meant the rapid demise of the marines. AR definately belongs as a hive 3 game ender, but I think to improve the fades midgame metabolize needs to be reworked.

Ben128 · August 2003

Regen is nice because its constant, where as metabolize means you have to sit back and heal for a bit.

Acid rockets DEVISTATE all enemies. LA marines become fodder, and HA gets hurt rather bad buy a few rockets due to the splash damage and range of AR.
Blink is one of the best ways to lead an assualt to end the game when they are Turret Farming and Using GLs to block the entracnces. Blink a few fades in and have gorges charge and kill the turrets and tf's.

Fades server a very nice midgame point, and for 50 res they are a good price. Aliens get res MUCH quicker than marines in 2.0. This is due to personal res for kills, more towers in the average game, and cheaper towers in general.

So while they are expensive, they do excellent damage per swipe, attack fast and in a group with umbra support can take on HA pretty good.

Onos is the "direct" counter to HA, so of course its going to do better, but Fades seem to be a really nice equivalent to a midgame marines with HMG's or shottie's. They can be killed by a midgame marine group, but they can also kill an entire squad of marines pretty easy as well.

Everyone is saying how they lack midgame usefullness, but in they ARE the midgame unit for aliens. With 5 res nodes in a decent size game, you can go fade every 4 minutes or so.

Its all about being equal guys. Yah, I know that a 10 res marine with a shotgun can take a 50 res fade, but a 50 res fade can take out a lot of non shotgunner mariens REALLY easily..and this puts the marines back just as much as a 50 res fade puts the aliens back.

Fades are not tanks, but they ARE heavy infantry...and server their purpose midgame, early game, and late game really well.

I know of many players that play fade excusivly the entire game, because of their skill's with one.

EnemyWithin · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Aug 20 2003, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Im pretty sure the passive regen doesnt kick in unless you are not attacking. What this means is, if you are using metabolise (thus +attack), the regen wont start, and thus the same as just metablising. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Passive regen definately works while you are attacking...I take it all the time. I'm not sure why meta doesn't stack with regen though.

Nefilim · August 2003

It's true - fades suck crap... til you get a third hive.

The problems with fades is that:
A: You need movement chambers. If the team goes sensory first, you're pretty much going to have to wait til the third hive to get that adrenaline upgrade. Defense chamber almost always comes second.

B: Are outclassed by lerks/skulks for most of the game's critical moments. Once aliens have all three hives and enough res towers to get the higher evolutions, the game is pretty much won as is. Fades are only good early game for taking out undefended turret farms, and that's only if they have two hives for metabolize.

Other than that, fades rock(et, heh heh). It's just sad to see that the "middle-class, worker alien" is only good at the end of the game. They do make excellent hive defenders against HA/Shotty rushes, though. Blink to some lerk spot and range them with acid rocket while being healed by regen/hive. They'll never hit you with the shotguns and you'll heal over it in an instant anyway.

lagger · August 2003

I use regen for the fade as gaining health over blink time is a very important trait. Regen does not stack with meta although thats a bug which is being fixed for 2.1 so dont worry <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>. btw: Try not to compare marine vs alien costs as they are not supposed to be the same since one is pooled and one isnt... it also takes alot more tech to reach ha/welder/hmg then it does to hit gestate fade.

Spob · August 2003

On public severs i find it easy enought to take out a group of lmg mariens with fade. And i manage to take ot some hmg marines and occasionly ha. Its not that hard to get nearly as many kills whith skulk, but fade is more fun if you practace.

Maredtext · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofsoap @ Aug 20 2003, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I had suspicions that Metabolize and Regen didnt work well together. I confirmed these suspicions with a stopwatch, by reducing a fade to minimal health (via Acid Rocket) and then restoring it to full health, via Metabolize, Regen, and a combination of the two. Here are the Results:

Metabolize Only: 25 Seconds*
Regen Only: 30 Seconds
Metabolize AND Regen: 25 Seconds*

*This fade had Adrenaline, so this is the shortest possible time with Metabolize

Clearly, Regeneration and Metabolize do not stack. If they did, it would take about 15 seconds to fully restore a fade, if it has room to breathe. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You have to hit metabolize after every "tic" of regen.

It would of course be easier if they just auto stacked.

pieceofsoap · August 2003

I am not debating the effectiveness of early game fades. I know from personal experience, early fades can destroy marine cohesiveness. Yes, EnemyWithin points out that Fades are strong early game Electrified RT killers. The critical issue, is the word "Early."

After the early game, comes the midgame. I find that this segment tends to take longest amount of time, and that often, marine teams work hard at preventing the Kharaa from entering the late game, by locking down the third hive. This means that Midgame Fades are forced to keep using early game tactics, against ever stronger opponents.

This brings us into the aspect of technology, and counters. In the early game, each team has their technology, and the enemy team has its counters to their technology. If one team gets a technological advantage, their opponent must tech up, so as not to be forced to fight with outdated tactics. The problem with 2 hive fade, is that it is forced to use 1 hive tactics.

Metabolise does not introduce any new tactics, it simply re-defines the locations that a Fade can heal up, after using its hive 1 abilities.

Spetz · August 2003

Fades need a longer swipe range. At the moment skulk bite has a bigger range, which is just stupid i think.

Fades REALLY need adrenaline to be effective at hit and run. They need to be able to blink into a pack of marines, cause some damage and get back out again FAST, not running out of energy in the process.

pieceofsoap · August 2003

Spetznaz_1,
Fades do well with any of the 3 movement abilities. Because swipe uses only a small amount of energy, adrenaline isnt the only option.

Celerity:
Some people love celerity fade, it makes fades able to run down and out-maneuver marines in toe to toe combat.

Silence:
Personally, this is my favorite Movement attribute for fade. With full silence, I become Ninja Fade. Marines dont know Im coming until one of their teammates is dead, and even then, they often dont know it.

Adrenaline:
If you intend to use blink to cover ground like a madman, this is for you. For when you blink even short distances, such as from one marine to the next, instead of using celerity for combat quickness. Also useful for healing after a battle, and Acid rocket.

pieceofsoap · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NoImagination @ Aug 20 2003, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Probably the same issue as 1.0x regen with DCs nearby. Regen would only work if you were not healed by a DC (not sure about healspray) at the same time.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Well, I checked this out, and Metabolize does stack with Defence Chambers, hives, and I believe Healspray aswell. Still odd that it doesnt stack with regen.

Lagger, you say this is a bug that will be fixed in 2.1? w00t!

Shockeh · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Is it just me, or do the FADES really suck against a pack of lmg marines? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Errr... Yes?

Because they should do?

Birdy · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Aug 20 2003, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I use regen for the fade as gaining health over blink time is a very important trait. Regen does not stack with meta although thats a bug which is being fixed for 2.1 so dont worry <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>. btw: Try not to compare marine vs alien costs as they are not supposed to be the same since one is pooled and one isnt... it also takes alot more tech to reach ha/welder/hmg then it does to hit gestate fade.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
So it will stack now?

WOOHOO

I always wait untill regen heals a bit before pressing meta so it kinda stacks :/

I'm glad i don't have to time it in 2.01

A Discussion On Fades

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