--- EDIT: Nubtard... I need to learn to read the whole post first <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, Mared, my suggestions for a more effective fade were like this:
<b>Various stupid tweaks</b>
1) Downright increase mobility. It's rediculous that a marine has the same manuverability as a fade (Blink aside, and marine have jetpacks anyways...). Fades should be lithe, agile fighters, not slow, clumsy, butterknife-wielding crazies. Give the fades a unique feature. Allow them to jump very high, as in... over marines.
2) Slightly increase footspeed. Fades suffer the most for lack of a movement chamber.
3) Increase slash range. Bite has more range then slash... :/
4) Invisible blinking. No turret tracking.
<b>Bigger changes</b>
1) Remove metabolize and replace it with a 'disarm' feature of some sort. The more powerful the weapon, the easier it is to disarm. Pistols and knives can't be disarmed. LMGs are harder to (As in, you need to be closer, maybe use it twice) then HMGs, GLs, and shotguns. You get the idea. It'll knock the weapon in a random direction.
2) Swipe damage should do more damage, anywhere from 90 to 100.
3) De-nerf acid rocket. 75 damage? Less stamina drain? It *IS* a hive 3 ability...
4) *Theoretical* Add in wall-jumping. Jump when you contact the wall and it bounces you in the opposite direction at a higher speed. They did it in Tribes2, and if you can do it in T2, you can easilly do it in HL.
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Aug 25 2003, 04:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Aug 25 2003, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Post-a-demo <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't have a site to host it on and I don't want to spend the time to get a free ftp just for 1 demo, but if you are willing or if someone else wants to volunteer I can send you a demo and you can post it if you want.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gadzuko+Aug 25 2003, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Aug 25 2003, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only Fade tweak I really want is invisible Blinking. Give me that, and... mmmmmm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I keep hearing it's coming, it's coming, but... no official word.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Leap gives you a much longer period of 'speed boost', and an upwards boost as well. - Leap is a 'one shot' that is far less stamina draining per meter covered. However, you can't really 'jog' with it liek you can with blink. - Easier to get into vents as a skulk then as a fade. - Leap can be stopped in midair, and allows easy direction changes (Leap feels more... 'floaty') - Leap can cause damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know maybe I screwed up with my statement. I'm gonna have to play around with leap more. See I never realized that it could be used on an angle, guess I never thought of trying that. Also, I'll have to try half-leaping. I thought it worked where you press the button, and you leap a set distance.
I wasn't saying they were the same, just trying to show that blink can be superior to leap. Wouldn't it be more difficult to leap around to dodge a marine, than to blink strafe around?(assuming you want to attack back)
And does leap do much damage?
Oh and I like your tweak ideas, but are you advocating removing blink? Blink is too cool to remove. Maybe less stamina used when blinking, or less used when attacking?
<!--QuoteBegin--lazygamer+Aug 25 2003, 05:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lazygamer @ Aug 25 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Leap gives you a much longer period of 'speed boost', and an upwards boost as well. - Leap is a 'one shot' that is far less stamina draining per meter covered. However, you can't really 'jog' with it liek you can with blink. - Easier to get into vents as a skulk then as a fade. - Leap can be stopped in midair, and allows easy direction changes (Leap feels more... 'floaty') - Leap can cause damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know maybe I screwed up with my statement. I'm gonna have to play around with leap more. See I never realized that it could be used on an angle, guess I never thought of trying that. Also, I'll have to try half-leaping. I thought it worked where you press the button, and you leap a set distance.
I wasn't saying they were the same, just trying to show that blink can be superior to leap. Wouldn't it be more difficult to leap around to dodge a marine, than to blink strafe around?(assuming you want to attack back)
And does leap do much damage?
Oh and I like your tweak ideas, but are you advocating removing blink? Blink is too cool to remove. Maybe less stamina used when blinking, or less used when attacking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One good leap can get you from the ground level entrance of the old version of Maintenance hive in Eclipse to the very back of it, and maybe even farther. I just can't find large enough spaces to leap across.
No, leap doesn't do much damage, but it is a little.
Pressing your backwards movement key in the middle of a leap stops you dead in midair, and you drop to the floor.
Phrrr the skilled leaper, once two hives are up skulks become demonic ultra pain machines if you know how to leap.
For those that want to see some of my afore mentioned demos, noelephant is going to add one to the first post in this thread (it is a small blink exibition). I will try and get some better demos to him if I can, if I'm not able to trim the size of the rest of my demos down I will try and get a ftp site up to put some larger ones on. I will even try and make a few more fade demos today on account that I don't currently have very many.
apart from blink actualy been akind of teleport like its ment to be i wouldnt mind seeing footspeed increased like monkeybonk said. ive always thought this. I mentioned it on v1.0 and it was changed, although a few things changed for fade. i dunno if it remained or they changed on 2.0 but its still abit ****. I remember saying stuff like he looks really athletic and that, looks like a fast animal. when ur using the fade u feel like ur walking, he looks like if he runs he is gonner be fast but he just walks. its like he is taking a casual stroll too his mates hive, or down to the shops. run for gods sake there are marines shooting u.
errr i cant agree with acid rockets boosted, ive neva liked em. full upgraded aliens > full upgraded marines atm so i dont think that needs boosted.
<!--QuoteBegin--lazygamer+Aug 25 2003, 05:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lazygamer @ Aug 25 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh and I like your tweak ideas, but are you advocating removing blink? Blink is too cool to remove. Maybe less stamina used when blinking, or less used when attacking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Make blink a movement function instead of a "weapon". Do you have to select "Wall Climb" for a skulk? Or "Fly" for a lerk? It feels clumsy the way it is, IMHO.
<!--QuoteBegin--ViolenceJack+Aug 25 2003, 06:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ViolenceJack @ Aug 25 2003, 06:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its like he is taking a casual stroll too his mates hive, or down to the shops. run for gods sake there are marines shooting u. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh man, my ribs... my ribs....
I'm too lazy to quote all the points, so I'm just going to make headings <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stuff about leap<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> One more thing: Leap is affected by your inertia. You'll leap farther if you're running forward then if you're running backwards, or while still. Actually to make super-long leaps, just run, jump, and leap. WOOSH.
If you're having trouble with leap, do what I do, and hold the 'crouch' button while leaping. You won't stick to surfaces this way, and you'll definately get to where you need to go.
Leap damage isn't much, simply because a lot of the time that leap is doing damage is spent while soaring through the air. I *HAVE* gotten *A* leap kill, and it's quite humiliating for the marine <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Definately keep blink, but I think there needs to be a 'specal' key for aliens that performs various attacks. The special key (<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) would perform blink for a fade, stomp for an onos, leap for skulk, etc.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.) armor upgrade 1: increases fade kill time per marine by 50 (from level 0) percent.... esentialy takes 150 percent of the time to kill a marine than it would to kill a unupgraded marine.
2.) weapon upgrade 1: Increases damage that marines can deal to fades while it is beating on one of their buddys... coupled with armor upgrade 1 this makes it even tougher on the fade seeing as how it takes longer per marine to kill but also you are recieving more damage while you are doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor upgrade 1 and Weapons upgrade 1 are standard and should be considered early game. Lots of commanders(including myself) build an arms lab immediately at the start of the game, so we have Armor 1 about a minute into the game. Weapons upgrade 1 is good but it adds +1 to each bullet, weapons 2 is +2 damage for every bullet, so is weapons 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3.) armor upgrade 2: increases fade kill time per marine by (about) 33 percent (from level 1). Esentialy takes 200 percent of the time to kill a marine than it would to kill a unupgraded marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is incorrect, armor 2 only increases marine health by 20.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If someone could do the calculations for me and get the exact number of 100 damage swipes for a level 3 armor I would appreciate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine health by armor level is: 0: 150 health : 2 swipes 1: 170 health : 3 swipes 2: 190 health : 3 swipes 3: 210 health : 4 swipes The last time I checked for marines total = health + armor, for aliens its total = health + (carapace * 2) A fade does 80 damage per swipe. That means that 20 more at level 2 armor doesnt really help vs fades or even skulks(75dmg per bite). Armor 2 is more of a stepping stone to armor 3, it can be slightly helpful vs OC's and Lerks. If your 100 swipe idea was implemented it would be 2 swipes at armor levels 0,1,2, and 3 swipes at level 3.
As for the rest of your post I dont really have a comment, obviously alien becomes harder when marines get better upgrades, just as the marine game gets harder when aliens get better upgrades. Hopefully you will have a 2nd hive and more upgrades(defense and movement) for yourself by that time. Level 3 carapace allows a fade to take 100 more damage(50 more carapace), about the damage of a level 2 weapons medium range shotgun blast(assuming 50% of the bullets hit) Celerity makes chasing marines easy as pie(jump + crouch when you blink to conserve energy) and with Adrenaline an accurate blinker can really work wonders.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gadzuko+Aug 25 2003, 05:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Aug 25 2003, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, leap doesn't do much damage, but it is a little. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Leap does a good amount of damage, it stacks. Leap down on a res node, or any building.
I actually like the Lerk as it is now ... its now the support unit that it is SUPPOSED to be.
Without bite, the lerk has no means to attack directly.
Spike - not supposed to be a direct head on attack (against good marines that is) - however, it is strong enough so that you can defend yourself.
Spores - suppression weapon
Umbra - Support your teammates
Primal Scream - Support your teammates/yourself
Anyways, the true uber 1337z lerks don't need bite to own, we can own as a support unit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Hmm. for whatever reason I cant edit my post. I thought about it and I think marine total health works slightly differently, I believe its +30 total per upgrade. So it'd actually be 0: 150 1: 180 2: 210 3: 240 That works and makes a little more sense(armor x 1.5?) Anyways, I do know that the swipe values given (2,3,3,4) are correct.
Armor absorbs X% of damage, halves it, and deducts that from armor.
Swipe attacks on Armor 0: 100/50, 44/38, dead in TWO Armor 1: 100/70, 52/54, 4/38, dead in THREE Armor 2: 100/90, 60/70, 20/50, dead in THREE Armor 3: 100/110, 68/86, 34/62, 2/38, dead in FOUR
If Swipe did 100 damage, it would kill A0, A1, and A2 all in only two hits, and A3 in three hits.
If it did 90, it would kill A1 and A2 in two, A3 and A4 in three.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Aug 26 2003, 01:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 26 2003, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The effective hit points of a light marine is 142.86 at level 0, 166.67 at level 1, 200 at level 2, and 250 at level 3. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What the hell? Um, where come from?
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 26 2003, 02:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 26 2003, 02:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Aug 26 2003, 01:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 26 2003, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The effective hit points of a light marine is 142.86 at level 0, 166.67 at level 1, 200 at level 2, and 250 at level 3. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What the hell? Um, where come from?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The formula is simple because light marines always die before their armor runs out (unless they're healed).
For level zero armor it's (100 / .7). 100 is the health of the marine, and .7 because 70% of received damage is not absorbed by armor. Similarly, for level one it's (100 / .6). Level two is (100 / .5). Level three is (100 / .4).
AFAIK a civilian is correct about marine HPs Armor absorption is 30% at L0, 40% at L1, 50% at L2 and 60% at L3 (true for both LA and Carapace) 1 Armor = 2 HP Marines always have more armor than needed
Lerks are deadly in 2.0. Both as support and combat evolutions. Nuff said.
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Fades are nothing more than glorified skulks.
Advantages: Fades can 'leap' at 1st hive, while Skulks must wait for 2nd hive. Fades have 'free' regen at 2nd hive. Fades have around 3.5x more health than skulks. Fades can 'fly'.
Disadvantages: Before 3rd hive, fades only have ONE damage dealing ability, the equal of skulks' bite, while skulks have 3 damage dealing attacks. Fades can't parasite. Fades are slower and larger than skulks, they are almost sitting ducks if not blinking. Without adrenaline, fades' attacks are easy to dodge. Fades are less adrenaline efficient than skulks. Fades can't wall climb and have trouble entering/moving into vents. Fades cost 50 res and take a while to evolve into.
--------------
Now, I don't care if there some "elite" dude somewhere that can kick **** with a fade. IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. 1. Fades are hit and run classes, so it's all natural that they can kill without dying, it's what they are made for. 2. Aliens win most of the time in 2.0. So even in high level matches, aliens have the advantages... including fades. 3. A good fade player will obviously beat a poor LA/LMG player.
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Now, the finishing move: (L3/L3) A Shotgun/Welder/HA costs 35 res, has 680 hp and does ~350 damage per second... ranged. A carapace Fade costs 52 res, has 550 hp and does ~240 damage per second... melee.
A single L2/3 shotgun can kill a fade in 3 hits (~1.2 seconds, because you don't need to wait for the 4th shot) Meanwhile it takes 9 swipes for a fade to kill a heavy, almost 3 seconds, at close range.
--------------
PS.: Bite and swipe attacks 3 time per second right?
<!--QuoteBegin--Phoebus+Aug 26 2003, 05:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Aug 26 2003, 05:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now, the finishing move: (L3/L3) A Shotgun/Welder/HA costs 35 res, has 680 hp and does ~350 damage per second... ranged. A carapace Fade costs 52 res, has 550 hp and does ~240 damage per second... melee.
A single L2/3 shotgun can kill a fade in 3 hits (~1.2 seconds, because you don't need to wait for the 4th shot) Meanwhile it takes 9 swipes for a fade to kill a heavy, almost 3 seconds, at close range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said in my post, fade has alot of trouble taking fully upgraded vanilla marines... When marines get heavy armors it is virtually impossible for fades to do anything. Fades can of course pick off the lone heavy by attacking multiple times and healing up between attacks but this heavy that is off alone is probably a newb anyway because hes not with the train to begin with.
The only thing that aliens have to counter heavys is the onos devour.... with that being changed I anticipate marines pretty much owning aliens especialy if they manage to get 1 heavy armor per onos. The problem with onos's is that they are so big that only 1 can fit in the doorway at a time alowing marines to all focus fire 1 onos at a time.
A bit off topic, but leap kills are actually fairly easy to get. If you leap at something, you have to move <b>+forward</b> into them (like charge) and it keeps damaging for quite a while, even when you'd probobly think it isn't. Try it on a marine building; get ontop of it and leap once and move <b>+forwards</b> into it. It keeps damaging the structure for quite a while, if you keep moving into it.
Now, I think the problem lies in the fact that when you leap at a marine, you usually change to the bitegun. This means that even if you killed them with your leap, it will display as a bite kill, because Half-Life registers the kill as with whatever weapon is currently selected. This is how the old onos paralyse kills were made (charge at marine, and then switch to paralyse before it connects), and how blink kills are made (fire an acid rocket, then switch to blink before the acid rocket hits its target. It'll register as a blink kill). Plus, the fact that when we switch to bitegun we usually hold down the <b>+attack</b> button too, it just seems that it's our biting that killed the marine, when it may have been the leap.
I think we'd see a lot more leap kills if this bug was fixed, as it often does more damage to the marine than we give it credit for, during games. I've gotton tons of bite kills when I havn't even pressed my +attack button after switching, and it's times like that when I wish I'd stayed on my leap weapon (because, let's face it, leap kills are pretty cool <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->).
Ontopic, I think that even simply adding an invisible blink would improve the fade immensely (with maybe a speed increase too). Currently, tracking a blinking fade is pretty easy, and so you always know where they are when they stop blinking. If blink made you invisible (for, say, 1.5 seconds after you click blink, to help with people who click blink instead of hold it down), then the marines will have absolutlely no idea where you're going to be when you stop blinking. This would work more like the 1.04 blink then, which was always an advantage. It would look to the marines more like the fade is teleporting, rather than just moving really fast. You could blink right over a group of marines, and they'd only know you were behind them when they feel your swipe on their backs.
Imagine you're at one end of Tram Tunnel on Bast. The marines are at the other, coming out of Feedwater. You could blink all the way down that tunnel (making sure to blink in a zig zag patten to avoid frantic fire from the marines) and then finally appear right beside them, or behind them. They'd have no way of tracking you, so they wouldn't know where you're going to appear. Even if it's hard for marines to hit a fast moving target, they can still track it and know exactly from which direction it is going to start swiping them from.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Phoebus+Aug 26 2003, 06:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Aug 26 2003, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This doesn't take into account previous damage and 'head-shots'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no locational damage in NS; head shots do not exist.
<!--QuoteBegin--Phoebus+Aug 26 2003, 06:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Aug 26 2003, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PS.: Bite and swipe attacks 3 time per second right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Skulk bite's rate of fire is approximately .4167 seconds.
the only time i fade now is when we have 3 hives and i can use acid rocket. i lag way to much to be able to blink into a bunch of marines and slash em, by the time i run out they kill me before my slashes register
I love the fade because I use the Aliens replacement, and the Aliens claws are awsome <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it's fine as it is with the exception that it does a little bit too little damage melee. Four/five swipes to kill Level 3 Light Marine is too much to my liking.
mmm... can anyone teach me how to "properly" use a fade to take down N amount of marines... I mean I use the fade like a skulk - in other words, I don't even use blink at all! I mean I checked out the skill, like you press blink and u just glide along the floor in a short distance wth? Doesn't that suck how do u "blink into a bunch of marines" the rines would shoot u before ur in blinking distance.
Comments
Anyway, Mared, my suggestions for a more effective fade were like this:
<b>Various stupid tweaks</b>
1) Downright increase mobility. It's rediculous that a marine has the same manuverability as a fade (Blink aside, and marine have jetpacks anyways...). Fades should be lithe, agile fighters, not slow, clumsy, butterknife-wielding crazies. Give the fades a unique feature. Allow them to jump very high, as in... over marines.
2) Slightly increase footspeed. Fades suffer the most for lack of a movement chamber.
3) Increase slash range. Bite has more range then slash... :/
4) Invisible blinking. No turret tracking.
<b>Bigger changes</b>
1) Remove metabolize and replace it with a 'disarm' feature of some sort. The more powerful the weapon, the easier it is to disarm. Pistols and knives can't be disarmed. LMGs are harder to (As in, you need to be closer, maybe use it twice) then HMGs, GLs, and shotguns. You get the idea. It'll knock the weapon in a random direction.
2) Swipe damage should do more damage, anywhere from 90 to 100.
3) De-nerf acid rocket. 75 damage? Less stamina drain? It *IS* a hive 3 ability...
4) *Theoretical* Add in wall-jumping. Jump when you contact the wall and it bounces you in the opposite direction at a higher speed. They did it in Tribes2, and if you can do it in T2, you can easilly do it in HL.
I don't have a site to host it on and I don't want to spend the time to get a free ftp just for 1 demo, but if you are willing or if someone else wants to volunteer I can send you a demo and you can post it if you want.
I keep hearing it's coming, it's coming, but... no official word.
- Leap is a 'one shot' that is far less stamina draining per meter covered. However, you can't really 'jog' with it liek you can with blink.
- Easier to get into vents as a skulk then as a fade.
- Leap can be stopped in midair, and allows easy direction changes (Leap feels more... 'floaty')
- Leap can cause damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know maybe I screwed up with my statement. I'm gonna have to play around with leap more. See I never realized that it could be used on an angle, guess I never thought of trying that. Also, I'll have to try half-leaping. I thought it worked where you press the button, and you leap a set distance.
I wasn't saying they were the same, just trying to show that blink can be superior to leap. Wouldn't it be more difficult to leap around to dodge a marine, than to blink strafe around?(assuming you want to attack back)
And does leap do much damage?
Oh and I like your tweak ideas, but are you advocating removing blink? Blink is too cool to remove. Maybe less stamina used when blinking, or less used when attacking?
- Leap is a 'one shot' that is far less stamina draining per meter covered. However, you can't really 'jog' with it liek you can with blink.
- Easier to get into vents as a skulk then as a fade.
- Leap can be stopped in midair, and allows easy direction changes (Leap feels more... 'floaty')
- Leap can cause damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know maybe I screwed up with my statement. I'm gonna have to play around with leap more. See I never realized that it could be used on an angle, guess I never thought of trying that. Also, I'll have to try half-leaping. I thought it worked where you press the button, and you leap a set distance.
I wasn't saying they were the same, just trying to show that blink can be superior to leap. Wouldn't it be more difficult to leap around to dodge a marine, than to blink strafe around?(assuming you want to attack back)
And does leap do much damage?
Oh and I like your tweak ideas, but are you advocating removing blink? Blink is too cool to remove. Maybe less stamina used when blinking, or less used when attacking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
One good leap can get you from the ground level entrance of the old version of Maintenance hive in Eclipse to the very back of it, and maybe even farther. I just can't find large enough spaces to leap across.
No, leap doesn't do much damage, but it is a little.
Pressing your backwards movement key in the middle of a leap stops you dead in midair, and you drop to the floor.
Phrrr the skilled leaper, once two hives are up skulks become demonic ultra pain machines if you know how to leap.
errr i cant agree with acid rockets boosted, ive neva liked em. full upgraded aliens > full upgraded marines atm so i dont think that needs boosted.
Make blink a movement function instead of a "weapon". Do you have to select "Wall Climb" for a skulk? Or "Fly" for a lerk? It feels clumsy the way it is, IMHO.
Oh man, my ribs... my ribs....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stuff about leap<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One more thing: Leap is affected by your inertia. You'll leap farther if you're running forward then if you're running backwards, or while still. Actually to make super-long leaps, just run, jump, and leap. WOOSH.
If you're having trouble with leap, do what I do, and hold the 'crouch' button while leaping. You won't stick to surfaces this way, and you'll definately get to where you need to go.
Leap damage isn't much, simply because a lot of the time that leap is doing damage is spent while soaring through the air. I *HAVE* gotten *A* leap kill, and it's quite humiliating for the marine <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Blinkish<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definately keep blink, but I think there needs to be a 'specal' key for aliens that performs various attacks. The special key (<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) would perform blink for a fade, stomp for an onos, leap for skulk, etc.
2.) weapon upgrade 1: Increases damage that marines can deal to fades while it is beating on one of their buddys... coupled with armor upgrade 1 this makes it even tougher on the fade seeing as how it takes longer per marine to kill but also you are recieving more damage while you are doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor upgrade 1 and Weapons upgrade 1 are standard and should be considered early game. Lots of commanders(including myself) build an arms lab immediately at the start of the game, so we have Armor 1 about a minute into the game. Weapons upgrade 1 is good but it adds +1 to each bullet, weapons 2 is +2 damage for every bullet, so is weapons 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3.) armor upgrade 2: increases fade kill time per marine by (about) 33 percent (from level 1). Esentialy takes 200 percent of the time to kill a marine than it would to kill a unupgraded marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is incorrect, armor 2 only increases marine health by 20.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If someone could do the calculations for me and get the exact number of 100 damage swipes for a level 3 armor I would appreciate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine health by armor level is:
0: 150 health : 2 swipes
1: 170 health : 3 swipes
2: 190 health : 3 swipes
3: 210 health : 4 swipes
The last time I checked for marines total = health + armor, for aliens its total = health + (carapace * 2) A fade does 80 damage per swipe. That means that 20 more at level 2 armor doesnt really help vs fades or even skulks(75dmg per bite). Armor 2 is more of a stepping stone to armor 3, it can be slightly helpful vs OC's and Lerks. If your 100 swipe idea was implemented it would be 2 swipes at armor levels 0,1,2, and 3 swipes at level 3.
As for the rest of your post I dont really have a comment, obviously alien becomes harder when marines get better upgrades, just as the marine game gets harder when aliens get better upgrades. Hopefully you will have a 2nd hive and more upgrades(defense and movement) for yourself by that time. Level 3 carapace allows a fade to take 100 more damage(50 more carapace), about the damage of a level 2 weapons medium range shotgun blast(assuming 50% of the bullets hit) Celerity makes chasing marines easy as pie(jump + crouch when you blink to conserve energy) and with Adrenaline an accurate blinker can really work wonders.
No, leap doesn't do much damage, but it is a little. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leap does a good amount of damage, it stacks. Leap down on a res node, or any building.
Without bite, the lerk has no means to attack directly.
Spike - not supposed to be a direct head on attack (against good marines that is) - however, it is strong enough so that you can defend yourself.
Spores - suppression weapon
Umbra - Support your teammates
Primal Scream - Support your teammates/yourself
Anyways, the true uber 1337z lerks don't need bite to own, we can own as a support unit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
0: 150
1: 180
2: 210
3: 240
That works and makes a little more sense(armor x 1.5?) Anyways, I do know that the swipe values given (2,3,3,4) are correct.
Health is always 100.
Armor 0: 50, 30% absorption
Armor 1: 70, 40%
Armor 2: 90, 50%
Armor 3: 110, 60%
Armor absorbs X% of damage, halves it, and deducts that from armor.
Swipe attacks on
Armor 0: 100/50, 44/38, dead in TWO
Armor 1: 100/70, 52/54, 4/38, dead in THREE
Armor 2: 100/90, 60/70, 20/50, dead in THREE
Armor 3: 100/110, 68/86, 34/62, 2/38, dead in FOUR
If Swipe did 100 damage, it would kill A0, A1, and A2 all in only two hits, and A3 in three hits.
If it did 90, it would kill A1 and A2 in two, A3 and A4 in three.
What the hell? Um, where come from?
What the hell? Um, where come from?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The formula is simple because light marines always die before their armor runs out (unless they're healed).
For level zero armor it's (100 / .7). 100 is the health of the marine, and .7 because 70% of received damage is not absorbed by armor.
Similarly, for level one it's (100 / .6).
Level two is (100 / .5).
Level three is (100 / .4).
Armor absorption is 30% at L0, 40% at L1, 50% at L2 and 60% at L3 (true for both LA and Carapace)
1 Armor = 2 HP
Marines always have more armor than needed
L0 = 143 hp, 2 bites, 2 swipes, 2 gores
L1 = 167 hp, 3 bites, 3 swipes, 2 gores
L2 = 200 hp, 3 bites, 3 swipes, 3 gores
L3 = 250 hp, 4 bites, 4 swipes, 3 gores
This doesn't take into account previous damage and 'head-shots'.
<a href='http://nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>http://nonoobs.com/damage.php</a>
Does gore do 90 or 100 damage?
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Lerks are deadly in 2.0. Both as support and combat evolutions. Nuff said.
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Fades are nothing more than glorified skulks.
Advantages:
Fades can 'leap' at 1st hive, while Skulks must wait for 2nd hive.
Fades have 'free' regen at 2nd hive.
Fades have around 3.5x more health than skulks.
Fades can 'fly'.
Disadvantages:
Before 3rd hive, fades only have ONE damage dealing ability, the equal of skulks' bite, while skulks have 3 damage dealing attacks.
Fades can't parasite.
Fades are slower and larger than skulks, they are almost sitting ducks if not blinking.
Without adrenaline, fades' attacks are easy to dodge.
Fades are less adrenaline efficient than skulks.
Fades can't wall climb and have trouble entering/moving into vents.
Fades cost 50 res and take a while to evolve into.
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Now, I don't care if there some "elite" dude somewhere that can kick **** with a fade. IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.
1. Fades are hit and run classes, so it's all natural that they can kill without dying, it's what they are made for.
2. Aliens win most of the time in 2.0. So even in high level matches, aliens have the advantages... including fades.
3. A good fade player will obviously beat a poor LA/LMG player.
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Now, the finishing move:
(L3/L3) A Shotgun/Welder/HA costs 35 res, has 680 hp and does ~350 damage per second... ranged.
A carapace Fade costs 52 res, has 550 hp and does ~240 damage per second... melee.
A single L2/3 shotgun can kill a fade in 3 hits (~1.2 seconds, because you don't need to wait for the 4th shot)
Meanwhile it takes 9 swipes for a fade to kill a heavy, almost 3 seconds, at close range.
--------------
PS.: Bite and swipe attacks 3 time per second right?
(L3/L3) A Shotgun/Welder/HA costs 35 res, has 680 hp and does ~350 damage per second... ranged.
A carapace Fade costs 52 res, has 550 hp and does ~240 damage per second... melee.
A single L2/3 shotgun can kill a fade in 3 hits (~1.2 seconds, because you don't need to wait for the 4th shot)
Meanwhile it takes 9 swipes for a fade to kill a heavy, almost 3 seconds, at close range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said in my post, fade has alot of trouble taking fully upgraded vanilla marines... When marines get heavy armors it is virtually impossible for fades to do anything. Fades can of course pick off the lone heavy by attacking multiple times and healing up between attacks but this heavy that is off alone is probably a newb anyway because hes not with the train to begin with.
The only thing that aliens have to counter heavys is the onos devour.... with that being changed I anticipate marines pretty much owning aliens especialy if they manage to get 1 heavy armor per onos. The problem with onos's is that they are so big that only 1 can fit in the doorway at a time alowing marines to all focus fire 1 onos at a time.
Now, I think the problem lies in the fact that when you leap at a marine, you usually change to the bitegun. This means that even if you killed them with your leap, it will display as a bite kill, because Half-Life registers the kill as with whatever weapon is currently selected. This is how the old onos paralyse kills were made (charge at marine, and then switch to paralyse before it connects), and how blink kills are made (fire an acid rocket, then switch to blink before the acid rocket hits its target. It'll register as a blink kill). Plus, the fact that when we switch to bitegun we usually hold down the <b>+attack</b> button too, it just seems that it's our biting that killed the marine, when it may have been the leap.
I think we'd see a lot more leap kills if this bug was fixed, as it often does more damage to the marine than we give it credit for, during games. I've gotton tons of bite kills when I havn't even pressed my +attack button after switching, and it's times like that when I wish I'd stayed on my leap weapon (because, let's face it, leap kills are pretty cool <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->).
Ontopic, I think that even simply adding an invisible blink would improve the fade immensely (with maybe a speed increase too). Currently, tracking a blinking fade is pretty easy, and so you always know where they are when they stop blinking. If blink made you invisible (for, say, 1.5 seconds after you click blink, to help with people who click blink instead of hold it down), then the marines will have absolutlely no idea where you're going to be when you stop blinking. This would work more like the 1.04 blink then, which was always an advantage. It would look to the marines more like the fade is teleporting, rather than just moving really fast. You could blink right over a group of marines, and they'd only know you were behind them when they feel your swipe on their backs.
Imagine you're at one end of Tram Tunnel on Bast. The marines are at the other, coming out of Feedwater. You could blink all the way down that tunnel (making sure to blink in a zig zag patten to avoid frantic fire from the marines) and then finally appear right beside them, or behind them. They'd have no way of tracking you, so they wouldn't know where you're going to appear. Even if it's hard for marines to hit a fast moving target, they can still track it and know exactly from which direction it is going to start swiping them from.
There is no locational damage in NS; head shots do not exist.
<!--QuoteBegin--Phoebus+Aug 26 2003, 06:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Aug 26 2003, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PS.: Bite and swipe attacks 3 time per second right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Skulk bite's rate of fire is approximately .4167 seconds.
The Fade swipe's rate of fire is .5 seconds.
The swipe is hard to hit with, only 80 hitpoints, when it should be 85, has a slow ROF and uses alot of stamina quickly.
I think it would be nice if the DMG went up to 85-90 I feel 90 DMG per swipe would balance out the short comings of the other facts.
i lag way to much to be able to blink into a bunch of marines and slash em, by the time i run out they kill me before my slashes register
I think it's fine as it is with the exception that it does a little bit too little damage melee.
Four/five swipes to kill Level 3 Light Marine is too much to my liking.