Is The Jp Nerf Too Much?

eagleceaglec Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9948Members, Constellation
I was sent on a ninja mission last night with a jp/sg. It was high risk and doomed to likely failure but nearly ended far earlier than it should because of the jp nerf.
We had cargo, generator and miasma, were fighting over intimidation and docking wing, the rest of the map was alien and lamed. We have res but with onos devouring and redeeming giving out HA's was useless and were in a little bit of a stalemate. We pushed forward and then they took back, then pushed forward and then we took back. Anyway you get the picture.

So in what can only be described as desperation to end the game the comm gives be a jp/sg and sends me on a ninja mission into enemy territory. Miasma was lamed when I got there so I went through docking wing and marine start. Marine start was less well lamed and some nifty flying got me through unscathed. Hid in a vent as a couple of onos when past. Same with foreboding. I walked along South access as it was clear and I knew I'd need the fuel to get up the top of power silo as requested. I walk round the corner and take a couple of spikes before holding the jump key and flying straight forwards for the opposite corner.

Now this was the problem, the jp didn't have enough fuel for this, I had to land, wait for refuel whilst running about to avoid the spikes, get medspammed and then make a second attempt.

(btw we eventually won with a more traditional tactic but this episode highlighted the nerfs short commings)

OK so I got up there but for christ sake the jp his a top level piece of kit should it really be this lame? You cant even dodge onos that well as they can jump or wait for you to run out of fuel. Lets face it the only way to kill an onos effectively is with an HMG which makes the JP less manouevrable or a shotgun which needs to be used up close. So 3 shotguns or 1 jp'er with a shotgun?

Don't take this as 100% rant, I' just wondering if the JP shouldn't be:
a) cheaper or
b) easier to obtain or
c) more manouverable or
d) have more fuel

You cant even slow yourself sufficiently from a long fall any more without taking some damage and the getting stuck on the floor bug is even more pronounced.

<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Comments

  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    For those of us not running top of the line systems (I get about 65fps in NS), the jetpack is the same if not better than it was in 1.04. For me, it is virtually unchanged. I can only imagine what someone playing with 30fps thinks of the new JP.

    Readjust your thinking.

    And by the way, jetpacking marines don't take falling damage, ever. More's the pity, I think, but that was Flay's decision.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You cant even slow yourself sufficiently from a long fall any more without taking some damage and the getting stuck on the floor bug is even more pronounced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    iirc falling damage was removed from JPers...
  • th0r0nth0r0n Born again n00b Join Date: 2003-06-12 Member: 17313Members
    Jetpacks rock now! But they're weighted down by guns as well (?).

    Don't try and hover for thirty five minutes and you'll be ok, just keep landing when it's safe to top up your fuel.
  • JoltGrisJoltGris Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11143Members
    edited August 2003
    It has changed from a top level piece of kit to a top level piece of <span style='color:white'>poo</span>.
  • AaronAaron vroom vroom der party startah Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7020Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--coil+Aug 26 2003, 12:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Aug 26 2003, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For those of us not running top of the line systems (I get about 65fps in NS), the jetpack is the same if not better than it was in 1.04. For me, it is virtually unchanged. I can only imagine what someone playing with 30fps thinks of the new JP.

    Readjust your thinking.

    And by the way, jetpacking marines don't take falling damage, ever. More's the pity, I think, but that was Flay's decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Same here. I have a respectable 85 fps, and the Jetpack is just fine for me...similar to what it was before.
  • DizzyOneDizzyOne BASS&#33; Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9095Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--coil+Aug 26 2003, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Aug 26 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For those of us not running top of the line systems (I get about 65fps in NS), the jetpack is the same if not better than it was in 1.04. For me, it is virtually unchanged. I can only imagine what someone playing with 30fps thinks of the new JP.

    Readjust your thinking.

    And by the way, jetpacking marines don't take falling damage, ever. More's the pity, I think, but that was Flay's decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    h4x... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I dont know how u have managed it but for me the jp is nerfed
    Its more a boostjump then a jetpack, k so i can still go very high but if i let the jump button go for one second i drop like a dead marine should.

    In 1.04 u could fly for 5 minutes straight (probly even longer), now let me see u do that with the new jp <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    and dont forget to post the demo on the forums aye <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    Nope. The new jp is just fine. Maybe it should be 12 res and 30 to upgrade to though.
  • WitherWither A Bugged Life Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11513Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation
    NS is about gameplay, strategy, enjoying yourself and sitting in your chair and being literally <b>in</b> the game.

    In 1.04, anyone with a decent video card and 100 fps could fly around for eternity and own a hive within 4 minutes of the game.

    I guess you guys are entirely right. The jp sucks now! You can't destroy hives with it anymore!

    In fact, jps shouldn't cost 15 res, they should cost 33 res, like the lerk, and you should be able to fly through walls!

    The jp's fine now. You can't fly with it, you can jump higher with it. Land every 5 seconds and you can own any skulk and chase fades/onos with it, but no, you <i>can't</i> own a hive on your own anymore. Too bad.
  • JamlJaml Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9054Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--dizzy.souls+Aug 26 2003, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dizzy.souls @ Aug 26 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In 1.04 u could fly for 5 minutes straight (probly even longer), now let me see u do that with the new jp <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    [Exaggeration] Maybe they were never intended to be able to fly from Sydney to New york in one go. [/Exaggeration]
  • CommandoCommando Join Date: 2002-05-22 Member: 657Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited August 2003
    Natural Selection 1.04:
    <img src='http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/images/jethonda2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
  • MajinMajin Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16829Members, Constellation
    I like the new JP, but its not very usefull I think
    MonkeyBonk siad it best
    "You mean Jump Jets"
  • KaniranKaniran Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12465Members
    In my own opinion, the jp is fine the way it works in game. Less fuel is needed to survive, since fall damage is non-existant. The only change I believe the jp needs is a cost decrease, as it is far too expensive for most teams to justify. In 1.04, a person with 99fps was a god with a jp, so they all believe this is a huge nerf. Anyone with 30fps thinks the jp was greatly improved. I think it stayed about the same. The only problem I see is that as jp is built to be the onos counter, far too few of the maps allow a jp/shotty or jp/HMG to land anywhere out of an onos's reach. Even if it is possible to land in a rafter somewhere, the onos will likely just be able to jump and gore to kill you anyway, despite the jp. Thus, more skill is needed, as one must avoid onos without landing.
    The jp is still a good scouting tool though, it is just slightly slower to us 99fps gods. And, as a scouting tool, 15 res is quite an investment, as no one has had time to re-master flying the 2.0 jp.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    You guys need to readjust your thinking of what the jetpack's purpose is. It is no longer something that's meant to be used to hover indefinately. Think of it more as a souped-up jump-pack and you're more along the lines of what it works well as, and it does certainly work well that way. It still works well for getting up out of the way of an alien attack, especially Onos attacks. It still works well for getting you to places of advantage in a firefight. It still works well for getting you to places quickly (or away from them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) . Really the only thing it doesn't do anymore is allow you to hover indefinately while aliens snap innefectually at where you just were.

    At any rate, it was much the same for me and my 30fps in 1.0x. And I was happy, dagnabbit. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • zippyzippy Forum Police. Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11956Members, Constellation
    to get good lift you have to jump then jetpack and you can't stop fall damage coz it's not powerfull enough.

    needs a tweek to get it half and half to what it was and what is is now.

    zippy
  • nthingnthing Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3091Members
    edited August 2003
    It seems to me that sometimes, even when you have plenty of fuel, holding down jump just doesn't rise you up. If you are falling reasonably fast and you begin to thrust again, you carry on falling to the ground, just at a slower pace. The only way to stay in the air for a while is to never let go of your jump key, and to slide along the ceiling, but as you all know you'd never get anywhere like this. Sometimes you need to drop down a little whilst flying, to get under things, but when you try to drop under them and then thrust back up you just keep dropping until you hit the floor. It is pretty impossible to fly through a room half-way up, hovering through the centre. You have to be either rising, sliding along the roof, falling or walking.

    This is, imo, the problem with the jetpack. This effect is lessened when you have less ammo, and a lighter gun, but if you want to get it to the point where it doesn't really affect you, you have to be carrying like a shotgun, 1 clip and no pistol, and with this you can't do anything efficient.

    However, tbh, I've never seen a TEAM of jetpackers in 2.0. Everytime a marine gets a jetpack, they fly off by themselves (probobly because of their increased speeds, so why bother waiting around?). You cannot just give one guy a jetpack anymore, and expect him to go take down 3 hives all by himself. However, a <b>full team</b> of JP-shotgunners probobly could, just like a full team of <b>HA-shotgunners</b> could.

    Maybe there is nothing wrong with jetpacks, just with the people wearing them. I'd like to give jetpacks a chance to show their potential (with a full team of them, rather than HA all the time), before they get de-nerfed too much.
  • FamFam Diaper-Wearing Dog On A Ball Join Date: 2002-02-17 Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Its original purpose was meant to be a jump pack, not a one-map-aeroplane. Evolve your ideas. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • TickTockTickTock Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 608Members
    edited August 2003
    My only issue is that it seems that if you bump your head, you start going down no matter how much fuel you have. Other than that I have no problem with them, though I rarely see them.
  • WarpZoneWarpZone Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6264Members
    *looks bored with the sheer monotony of repeating the same thing over and over again in the forums*

    "Jetpack-was-intended-as-a-fun-gimick-and-a-way-for-marines-to-strategically-access-vents-as-a-shortcut. It-was-not-supposed-to-be-an-onos-counter-and-certianly-not-a-way-to-bypass-OCs-kill-hives-or-fly-around-forever-invincibly-dodging-alien-attacks-killing-everything-in-sight-while-the-commander-drops-ammo-on-the-catwalks-overhead. If-you-were-able-to-do-this-in-1.04-it-was-a-bug-because-your-frame-rate-was-too-high-and-the-only-changes-to-JPs-in-2.0-is-that-this-bug/exploit-was-fixed-and-now-JP-behaves-as-if-all-players-have-a-medium/high-ping. This-is-not-a-nerf-like-the-server-side-patches-in-1.04-rather-this-is-Jetpacking-the-way-Flayra-originally-envisioned-it."
  • RocketRiderRocketRider Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19428Members
    Well, I suppose its battlefield abilities are where they should be now; no more hive ownage from a single JP D:
    However, in any serious game of NS, where the marines are almost always in deep trouble from the start, both as a commander and marine I can never justify the cost of JP research and subsequently passing them out. The new OCs make quick work of anyone who's not a god with the JP already, and Onos usually just jump to smash your face in. If they were just a tad cheaper to research and make, it'd be worth it. As it stands, I'd rather take my chances with HA that's just a little more expensive, but much longer lasting.
  • nthingnthing Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3091Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--WarpZone+Aug 26 2003, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WarpZone @ Aug 26 2003, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It-was-not-supposed-to-be-an-onos-counter- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, it was.
    Why do you think paralyse was replaced?
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
    edited August 2003
    Oh I have no problem with the jetpack's purpose. They can and are quite useful. What I don't like is the cost.

    Every time I hand one out I think to myself "man for 5 more res that could be a HA". Every time I research them I think "35 res, I could have grabbed HA with that". A group of 5 marines decked out in HA is more powerful than a group of 5 marines decked out in jps. Combine then and it's another story but fundamentally should the jetpack really cost so much? Given that they have been greatly reduced in power why should they retain a high cost? I by no means advocate a return to 1.04 jetpacks o' doom but I do think that with a price decrease these devices could gain in use. Because as it stands there's no reason to go for jetpacks over HA, and you generally only have the res to go for either jps or HA. As a com you have to determine what gives the greater benefit for cost, and HA just ends up on top.
  • XodlikeXodlike Join Date: 2003-06-03 Member: 16985Members
    a straight 100 FPS <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> the JP has changed SO much for me... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--eaglec+Aug 26 2003, 05:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eaglec @ Aug 26 2003, 05:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You cant even slow yourself sufficiently from a long fall any more without taking some damage <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    what fall damage?
    jp is fine it just takes a bit of getting used to and allows more predictable movements to counter though they are still quite hard to stop.
  • PoofatPoofat Join Date: 2003-06-17 Member: 17434Members
    Hmm, I've only had the chance to use JPs a few times, and I found them a great counter to onos and lerk. However, they are limited in small spaces, which is a majority of places on the maps.

    I think the problem is that gravity goes down at 9.81 m/s/s and the jetpack seems to thrust at ~10 m/s/s so you have to rely completley on the inital impulse from your jump to actually go up at all. As soon as you let off the jump you seem to lose any and all vertical velocity, and you just don't have enough fuel to regain altitude.

    I didn't know about the no fall damage thing though, that would have changed my tatic quite a bit.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    I think the jetpack should come earlier.


    My idea is this:


    Make it so after both the amory and observatory is built, the proto lab can also be built.

    In this protolab, there would still be two avalible techs: Jetpacks and Heavy Armor.

    Jetpacks could be researched once lv. 1 weapons is researched from the arms lab.

    Heavy Armor is the same, avalible once the adv. armory is done upgrading.




    Right now, to make both HA and jets avalible at the same time is just... wrong to me. In the majority of the situations I can think of, jetpacks, as they stand right now, are fair less useful than HA. Against onos, in just about every map I can think of for NS, if a jetpacker were to fly above an onos' head, he would die, because gore has extreme range and the hallways are so low.

    The jetpack's themsevles right now do not warrant them at the same level as HA. If it came sooner, there would be a much greater purpose to Jetpacks.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    the only problem with jp I find is you cant really dodge getting devoured.
  • MajinMajin Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16829Members, Constellation
    just make the damned thing cheaper!
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    i dont have a great card, and have **** connection, jetpack has IMPROVED for me in 2.0. I never had problems reaching the top of powersilo in either version. Where you waaay out in the hallway when you started flying?
  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
    I agree with Forlorn. I don't mind their being "nerfed" (they're still useful), but they are overpriced to research and not as reliable as HA. Move it down to the midgame instead, and maybe have it so that they grant a +20 armour bonus. If not the latter, then decrease the cost of JPs to 10 or similar.
  • KazyrasKazyras Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9722Members
    Excuse my bluntness, but these topics are getting freaking annoying. NOT the topics themselves, but rather the throngs of yahoos who inevitably post stuff like "IT WAS OVERPOWERED IN 1.04 !!!!!!" or "YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO HOVER FOR 30 MINUTES!!!" or "YOU JUST WANT TO PWN HIVES EASILY AGAIN!!! OMG NOOB EVOLVE!!"

    What is wrong with you people? Why do you always post that crap and ignore the very valid points that are continuously brought up that show how USELESS the new jetpack is?

    The jetpacks WERE changed more than untying their dependency on frame rate. I have a friend who gets ~30-40 FPS who noticed that as well. The thrust was murdered. Unless your FPS was 4 or below, you should notice how you can no longer tap to hover or to slow down your fall. Also, you can no longer turn in the air at all. If you do, you'll lose almost all your velocity and you'll need to land to change direction. THIS SUCKS. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. A JP should ENHANCE your mobility, not LIMIT it. As a skulk, I find it EASIER to kill a jetpacker than a LA marine because of that. Are you gonna tell me that's the way it should be?

    Even if 2.1 made jetpacks just like they were in 1.04 with a solid 100 FPS, they would hardly overpowered for several reasons:

    1) Aimbotting OCs
    2) Lerks available within the first 2 minutes of the game
    3) Teching all the way up to protolab takes forever AND the JP themselves are ridiculously expensive. 5 res less than HA for something that's basically only good for going on ledges and into vents? And you'll most likely get killed by a leaping skulk or a jumping onos before accomplishing anything? RIP. OFF.

    If JP are going to suck this much, they should allow the marine to jump normally (to dodge) so he would still be a regular LA marine, enhanced with the ability to get on ledges and vents. Right now, receiving a JP is a NERF to a LA marine's combat effectiveness, and not an improvement at all.
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